Role Of Pain In Meditation

[honu]

Another discussion on here reminded me of this subject. To preface, I don't personally accept a literal interpretation of Buddhism so a lot of the conventional Buddhist wisdom on every topic seems like story-telling to me. Not that I'm sure it's all wrong (all the stuff about rebirth and karma--the literal kind--and heavenly realms); for all I know reality is like that, I just don't see the point in believing in it. To each their own, I have nothing against those ideas and don't know what happens after death, I'm just out there in a different part of left field. No offence is intended to those who see things otherwise.

Back to topic: I used to meditate a good bit when I spent two months ordained here in Bangkok (and also when I was younger, but that was a different story). The standard practice of mixing walking meditation and sitting meditation made it easy; it wasn't difficult to practice for two or three hours at a time. I felt I benefited from sitting more in at least one way, though: the pain was educational. I don't mean in a sense that it built up and let me really recognize suffering for what it is (although in a limited sense I guess it was like that) but I felt as if I could relate better to what my body was experiencing for it. I'll try to summarize.

It seemed to me that the pain from sitting motionless (which is normal) came from the tension I ordinarily carry in my body (which is normal). I experience even more now because I sit at a desk typing for 9 or 10 hours a day and my job is stressful (I know; if I could only release attachments and all that). That tension back then generally didn't do anything but perhaps skew my posture slightly (which I didn't notice, so maybe not even that) but after just 15 or 20 minutes it would trigger pain. Or so it seemed to me; this is just a theory based on what I experienced, not any standard take on the subject. Another meditator said that in practicing she tried to make the pain small and was able to acheive some success and could translate that to control over herself in ordinary life, but I saw it differently (but it ended up in a similar place). It seemed that if I could only relax the tension a bit, to do less, not more, the pain would ease up. Put another way she was discussing a positive control and I was experiencing a negative one; I wasn't doing something, I was stopping doing it. As I experienced it the pain wasn't just in my mind but my mind was causing it, by way of tensing my body. Breathing helped (watching breathing, that is) because of the link between breath and mental state, but I suppose it might have been more difficult to use that if I hadn't practice yoga and meditated in the past. Early on it took a good bit of practice to not over-intellectualize just noticing breathing--which was strange, you'd think there would be nothing to that. On a good day I could easily enough sit for an hour but I wasn't trying for duration, I would just sit that long to calm down and then walk instead.

Here's where I stop having a point, I just wanted to relate my experience. If I hadn't been a monk then I could talk about how it really helped in my everyday life (or didn't) but changing environment that drastically made the impact tough to assess. It seemed to me that I had a crazy level of patience for rituals and services and living a restrictive lifestyle (227 rules, was it? I think they just covered the basic hundred for me due to the language issue, even though many of the monks spoke great English). Which reminds me: can a monk smell flowers? Some monks there said yes, some said no, so either it was a matter of interpretation, or some monks were wrong, or the more archaic rules they've since dropped (that part gets to be a long story, actually).

I guess if I had a point (and perhaps I don't) it's that discussion of Buddhist practice could be about practical concerns, actual practice issues, what benefits are, and not just theory or backing off and only saying "you need a competent teacher to personally discuss that" before moving on to explaining how rebirth works. I wouldn't still be influenced by Buddhism if all of the meaning of it was deferred to next-life gains or amounted to karma passed on to the good of the cosmos. It's helped me to better see who and what I am, or so it's seemed to me, but then that's another story.

[rockyysdt]

Back to topic: I used to meditate a good bit when I spent two months ordained here in Bangkok (and also when I was younger, but that was a different story). The standard practice of mixing walking meditation and sitting meditation made it easy; it wasn't difficult to practice for two or three hours at a time. I felt I benefited from sitting more in at least one way, though: the pain was educational. I don't mean in a sense that it built up and let me really recognize suffering for what it is (although in a limited sense I guess it was like that) but I felt as if I could relate better to what my body was experiencing for it. I'll try to summarize.

It seemed to me that the pain from sitting motionless (which is normal) came from the tension I ordinarily carry in my body (which is normal). I experience even more now because I sit at a desk typing for 9 or 10 hours a day and my job is stressful (I know; if I could only release attachments and all that). That tension back then generally didn't do anything but perhaps skew my posture slightly (which I didn't notice, so maybe not even that) but after just 15 or 20 minutes it would trigger pain.

As I experienced it the pain wasn't just in my mind but my mind was causing it, by way of tensing my body. Breathing helped (watching breathing, that is) because of the link between breath and mental state, but I suppose it might have been more difficult to use that if I hadn't practice yoga and meditated in the past.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Honu.

When it comes to pain & its role on Meditation & Mindfulness I think of several types.

1. Pain experienced from illness or injury.

2. Pain caused by sitting or walking with a posture not at one with gravity.

3. Pain caused by adopting a posture not suited to your physiology (body dimensions).

4. Pain magnified out of proportion by the mind (mind games) leading to negative thoughts.

Was your pain a mixture of 2 & 3?

I understand pain can play its part on our journey & is able to assist our progress.

In recent times I've suffered acute chronic pain caused from illness. I've learned through my experience that my practice both sitting meditation & mindfulness dropped off considerably due to my inability to achieve any level of concentration. If some find it difficult to practice concentration under normal circumstances it becomes many more times more difficult when in acute pain. Thankfully this has now subsided so I can refocus on my practice.

Also due to my body dimensions & inability to find a sitting posture which allows me to be at one with gravity I find I continue to have muscular tension which fuels random thoughts. The mind & body are intertwined.

My aim is to achieve my optimal sitting position in order to relieve muscular tension & as a result a still mind. I work towards this through a general fitness regime, specific stretching exercises & use of appropriate cushioning.

I'm not convinced that exposing oneself to pain through unnecessary tension assists ones meditative progress.

We're all born with different bodies & have unique needs in order to achieve a stable posture free from tension. Many of eastern descent have been taught to adopt a lotus or semi lotus position without any muscular tension soon after infancy. I think many Westerners require a personal program in order to develop a acceptable sitting posture free from muscular tension & in harmony with gravity.

On the other hand the ability to overcome real pain through self observation is an indicator that we've achieved a high level of competence in our practice.

[Brucenkhamen]

Pain is just a much a part of life as pleasure is, as neutral feelings are. It only becomes an issue in meditation because we are habituated to avoid it at all costs, whereas in meditation we have to stop doing that.

Slowly we learn that it isn't so important whether we are experiencing pleasure and pain or something in between, what's important is that we are aware of our experience, open to it, in a place of mind where we can learn from it.

As to your other point, I think I know what you mean. I've noticed with dismay on another board (not so much on this board) where people have asked for advise on their experiences along the Buddhist path only to get responses along the lines of "the books say this" or worse "you have to believe this because the books say this". Sometimes it then degenerates into bickering over what exactly the books say. Now if somebody wanted to know what the books say they would have asked, but instead they asked for practical advise. If someone needs to draw on what the books say rather than their own experiences when giving advise you have to wonder whether they have any experiences to draw on.

Now I've never conciously experienced a rebirth, I don't have a problem with the way it's presented in scripture I just don't think that we can adequately describe things beyond our experience with finite language. The only certainty I have is whatever happens next life, this life won't be remembered. What I can say is in my experience an agnostic approach to things outside of my experience works fine along the Buddhist path.

[fabianfred]

Pain is like any other distraction during meditation...we can learn to ignore it.

I can meditate in a quite noisy environment OK. Although we like to look for quiet peaceful natural settings which are very conducive to meditation, being unable to find such ideal conditions should not put us off and stop us from trying.

When i am sitting there, if a noise or feeling is distracting, I tell myself....it can only disturb me if I allow it to...then i can mentally relax and ignore it.

My teacher LP Jaran recounted a story about a friend of his own age whom he helped to go and study abroad, when he was only still a young monk. The friend eventually gained a Doctorate and visited him after returning to Thailand to thank him for his help. Many years later his friend returned again to visit him, this time as a young boy of about ten years of age. His friend had died and been reborn and then contacted his old wife and children who brought him to visit the abbot at the temple again. The boy remembered his past life.....and knowledge too. He complained about having to go to classes in school when his own knowledge was superior to that of the teachers, since he had previously gained a Doctorate on the subjects!!!

[rockyysdt]

Pain is like any other distraction during meditation...we can learn to ignore it.

I can meditate in a quite noisy environment OK. Although we like to look for quiet peaceful natural settings which are very conducive to meditation, being unable to find such ideal conditions should not put us off and stop us from trying.

When i am sitting there, if a noise or feeling is distracting, I tell myself....it can only disturb me if I allow it to...then i can mentally relax and ignore it.

l needed ideal conditions when I first started meditation but since have learned that if l can successfully sit with distractions the experience is deeper.

Of course some noises l can never overcome.

l agree that pain like other distractions needs to be ignored but my experience was such that l was quite disoriented and all l could do was to attempt sleep to gain relief.

lt depends on the severity but l have great difficulty learning to ignore great pain.

My teacher LP Jaran recounted a story about a friend of his own age whom he helped to go and study abroad, when he was only still a young monk. The friend eventually gained a Doctorate and visited him after returning to Thailand to thank him for his help. Many years later his friend returned again to visit him, this time as a young boy of about ten years of age. His friend had died and been reborn and then contacted his old wife and children who brought him to visit the abbot at the temple again. The boy remembered his past life.....and knowledge too. He complained about having to go to classes in school when his own knowledge was superior to that of the teachers, since he had previously gained a Doctorate on the subjects!!!

Your teachers friend is extremely fortunate.

Not having to start all over again in his new life means that he can take advantage of his previous experiences.

His story also boosts our ego knowing that it's not all over for us upon death.

[sabaijai]

Buddhism doesn't teach that pain and noise are to be ignored. Rather they are to be experienced for what they are. In terms of practice, pain and noise, rather than preventing sati from arising, might actually be the vehicles on which sati arrives. I think anyone who has practiced sitting meditation will agree that pain in particular is one of the most compelling objects of awareness.

A Burmese monk once pointed out that sati doesn't arise when we are peaceful and quiet but rather when there is no other choice, ie when all else fails. It happens in spite of our efforts to meditate, rather than because of them.

Such knowledge has infinite practical applications, including awareness of the effects of body posture and the ways in which physical tension is mentally abetted

[honu]

I appreciate the discussion, lots of good points made.

His story also boosts our ego knowing that it's not all over for us upon death.

Funny how that came out, surely no need to go into all the no-self stuff. The intention was clear--it's comforting that we probably come back--but for more advanced practice it might well be helpful to let go of that and face the fear of death that we all have on some level. Or so it seems to me.

Some of those posts really caught what I was getting at: I wasn't describing the pain I felt as much as the pain it is natural for everyone to feel. An injury or bad posture are different things but from what I've heard from others everyone needs some practice (in both senses) to get used to sitting and for most some discomfort remains even after that. For me it was closer to an aid to practice than a hinderance to it, if only because it didn't remain a problem, and it helped a little as a feedback mechanism because it clarified the link between some types of thoughts and tension and pain. With a little relaxing my mind and body the pain reduced to next to nothing and it was easy to sit for awhile, but extending that indefinitely was never my goal. I was taught the Thai version of vipassana that uses alternating sitting and walking and it seemed best to stick with the program. During the process the link between breathing and mental state seemed crucial, but then I first experienced more of that related to yoga practice. There it's easy to notice if your mind isn't calm because in lots of poses you fall over. I read once that yoga was really designed as a preparation for sitting meditation but of course that's not what you typically read; it's more often advanced as it's own practice with sitting playing the role of one of many poses. I'd expect that today lots of the gym-based yoga classes de-emphasize anything beyond calming down and gaining flexibility, which would be valid; I did it in part to support other sports I was active in.

For me the practical application to everyday life seems limited. Maybe it helped back then, hard to say. Sometimes now I become aware of tension in the course of the day and few abdominal breaths helps relax it, but not too often. It seems likely that if I could find time to meditate a little bit a few times a week the positive effects would stay with me better but my schedule is oppressive. Sometimes I'll concentrate a little on the BTS.

[rockyysdt]

Such knowledge has infinite practical applications, including awareness of the effects of body posture and the ways in which physical tension is mentally abetted

To some extent I might harbour an aversion & do spend much thought on posture.

It comes about due to my need to analyse things & is supported by teachings I have learned from others.

A Japanese Zen teacher explained to me that getting your sitting posture right was very important as this was your foundation.

I've also read Will Johnson's work on "The Posture of Meditation". He explains that the mind and body are intricately connected. While there is tension in the body (muscles tightening to support you against gravity) then the mind becomes active with random thoughts.

On the other hand, when the body is fully relaxed & at one with gravity the mind naturally settles down. In this state one can experience greater periods of stillness in order to focus on ones point of contemplation, in my case the breathe.

It was interesting to read that the Buddha finally broke through in his practice with adjustments to his posture after being given 2 bushels of rice straw which allowed him to realign his posture.

I do analyze or over analyze (conditioned state) but hope that this might bear fruit some day if I get it right.

[sabaijai]

It was interesting to read that the Buddha finally broke through in his practice with adjustments to his posture after being given 2 bushels of rice straw which allowed him to realign his posture.

Interesting. I've never heard this - do you have a reference?

[rockyysdt]

It was interesting to read that the Buddha finally broke through in his practice with adjustments to his posture after being given 2 bushels of rice straw which allowed him to realign his posture.

Interesting. I've never heard this - do you have a reference?

The Posture of Meditation.

Will Johnson.

Page 31,

Formal Practice - Alignment:

Quote: "Shortly before the Buddha experienced his enlightenment, he met a grass cutter who gave him a bushel of straw with which to make his meditation seat more comfortable. It is reported that the Buddha graciously accepted this gift, arranged his seat & renewed his efforts. A bushel of straw on which to sit on may not seem like much to us, accustomed to the ready availability of high density foams or natural fibre cushionings. 2,500 years ago, however, a bushell of straw quite probably represented a significant gift.

It was not long after this gift that the Buddha's long search & inquiry received a final acceleration that culminated in his full enlightenment"

Although he can't prove it was his posture which caused the final acceleration Will contends that the pelvis should be higher than the knees allowing the upper body to align more comfortably with the flow of gravity. This also relieves muscular tension in the buttocks & legs.

Unfortunately he doesn't quote a source.

Until I improve my posture through leg exercises, fitness & cushioning I personally achieve alignment with gravity by practicing in a lying position on the floor. This is done on a hard floor to ensure it doesn't turn into a sleep session.

I'm in a transition period because I know the sitting position is optimal & preferred.

It will be in place in time for my retreat experience in June.