Understanding X-pats

[siamamerican]

More times than I would have liked I've come across as a hot head or even worse a pr!ck on this forum. Been working on controlling that fire over the last year since moving to Thailand. Still have difficulties conversing with perpetual pessimists and those that can't comprehend they aren't superior to Thais( hmm, or Americans). We all are imperfect and I'm probably less in control of my emotions, even now, than most but I do control my temper during my interactions with Thais in public.

I spent the first 6 months of the year driving throughout Thailand and witnessed part and full time x- pats , on too many occasions, behaving extremely inconsiderate. The main reason for the behavior is the simple fact that it is done differently in their home country. I'm a proud American but have come to the realization over the years that we as a whole are far from perfect and I have never been to a country that is close to perfect. Losing your cool and insulting Thais because their means of doing things isn't exactly going to garner respect.

The constant posts about how Thailand is becoming Xenophobic seem to be misdirected. From my experience, many westerners are becoming more fearful of Thais. I'll admit that I worry that Thais are becoming less respectful to us westerners. They will naturally become less accommodating to westerners as the wealth gap closes. Also, I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

I love Thailand and below are some of my reasons. Didn't list the numerous problems with Thailand because none are really worth mentioning. I'm just going to enjoy what I have today and realize things are going to change and probably for the worse for us x-pats.

*Affordable housing

*Entertainment

*Cost and availability of restaurants

*Transportation Options ( In America it is horrendous)

*Service at hospitals

*Health care costs ( early 40s but have had great outcomes for broken bones and other issues)

*Service at government offices (oddly enough this where I've seen quite a few Farangs insulting Thais. Maybe in Europe the service is better than in the US but I doubt it)

*Friendly attitude of Thais ( again, maybe people are friendlier in Europe vs USA)

[IanForbes]

I think the main reason for most of the complaints is there ARE ways to do things better... no matter what country you live in. Despite Thailand being a lovely place to retire, if you have an adequate income, there are still many problems that could be and should be sorted out. But, that is true wherever you live. I happen to live in Canada, and spend 5 months each year living in Thailand during Canada's winter. I complain about Canada all the time, and think our government officials are a bunch of scammers no matter which party gets elected. I think our so called Justice System is a disgrace. I also think our once great police force, the RCMP, has fallen to a very sad level. It was once the greatest police force in the world and thought highly of by every other country, but now you can't trust any of them.

So, when I hear expats in Thailand complaining, I give them a little slack. They usually are touching on real problems that should be sorted out, but aren't. I won't go into all the problem areas because I can balance them out with so many good things that it makes my few complaints look trivial.

[sassienie]

You say; I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

Now who’s being pessimistic?

[siamamerican]

I'll admit that I worry that Thais are becoming less respectful to us westerners. They will naturally become less accommodating to westerners as the wealth gap closes. Also, I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

You say; I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

Now who’s being pessimistic?

As I stated above, I admit I also worry. Never claimed to be perfect . Also, I feel closing the income gap is great for Thais. Might have negative impacts for x-pats.

[IanForbes]

You say; I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

Now who's being pessimistic?

With that I have to agree with you.

I remember Japan in the 1950s when all the cheap plastic crap came from there. From what I heard from the men who visited Japan in the 1950s, it was similar to what Thailand is today... inexpensive and fun. But, some smart Japanese business men had things figured out and hired German technology to transform their companies into world leaders. When Japan started marketing high quality goods at low prices the whole world came knocking on their door and their economy soared. Vehicle sales rose above North America and Europe. There was a big demand for Japanese watches (Seiko etc) and their wonderful cameras: Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Olympus, Minolta etc, etc.

Today, Japan has stepped past their trading partners and is now an expensive country to visit.

[sassienie]

You say; I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

Now who's being pessimistic?

With that I have to agree with you.

I remember Japan in the 1950s when all the cheap plastic crap came from there. From what I heard from the men who visited Japan in the 1950s, it was similar to what Thailand is today... inexpensive and fun. But, some smart Japanese business men had things figured out and hired German technology to transform their companies into world leaders. When Japan started marketing high quality goods at low prices the whole world came knocking on their door and their economy soared. Vehicle sales rose above North America and Europe. There was a big demand for Japanese watches (Seiko etc) and their wonderful cameras: Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Olympus, Minolta etc, etc.

Today, Japan has stepped past their trading partners and is now an expensive country to visit.

I can`t see Thailand going in the same direction as Japan, not in my lifetime anyway, but everything is tightening up in all countries.

Maybe it`s time for another biblical flood, get the worlds populations down again, so there will be more resources to go around, and cheaper for everyone.

[IanForbes]

I can`t see Thailand going in the same direction as Japan, not in my lifetime anyway, but everything is tightening up in all countries.

Maybe it`s time for another biblical flood, get the worlds populations down again, so there will be more resources to go around, and cheaper for everyone.

I kind of agree with you, Sassienie...

The doctors are just to darn efficient and the wars aren't bad enough yet. Those dam_n pigs didn't do a good enough job with that flu they created.

It took Japan about 40 years to get out of their slump, but I agree that the entire Thai government would need a severe overhaul to take the steps needed. Japanese are very regimented and structured, as are the Germans and Swiss, and that is what makes them so efficient.

[bkkjames]

I can`t see Thailand going in the same direction as Japan, not in my lifetime anyway, but everything is tightening up in all countries.

Maybe it`s time for another biblical flood, get the worlds populations down again, so there will be more resources to go around, and cheaper for everyone.

I kind of agree with you, Sassienie...

The doctors are just to darn efficient and the wars aren't bad enough yet. Those dam_n pigs didn't do a good enough job with that flu they created.

It took Japan about 40 years to get out of their slump, but I agree that the entire Thai government would need a severe overhaul to take the steps needed. Japanese are very regimented and structured, as are the Germans and Swiss, and that is what makes them so efficient.

Is that why the Japanese economy as a whole has been a disaster for the past decade Ian?

[IanForbes]

Is that why the Japanese economy as a whole has been a disaster for the past decade Ian?

Not really. Japan is still a world leader. But, all countries grow to a certain size before everything levels off. It happened to Great Britain and the USA as well. Last year's disaster in the world economy was brought on by American greed and corruption. I'll bet if you examined the internal workings of large Japanese companies it was greed at the top that caused the problems they faced 10 years ago. It all levels off eventually and slowly things balance out.

[Scott]

I agree that as the economic situation for Thai people in general improves, their acceptance of foreigners will diminish. So, here we are safely enjoying ourselves nestled between countries like Cambodia and Laos on one side and Myanmar on the other! Seems like a pretty geographically good place at the moment.

[Harcourt]

There's too many quotes to quote..... What is being said here regarding Thai's economic situation is that while it's poor, it's good for the expat, but unfortunately for us expats, their economy might get better which will make it harder on us.

This may be true. But to see Thailands success as a negative????

Why don't you just wish and pray that Thailand's economic situation stagnates so you can exploit the situation forever.

If you love Thailand, you will hope that Her economy will succeed. If you want to exploit the people, hope that Thailand gets poorer.

Siamamerican mentioned that respect from Thais toward expats is diminishing.....I wonder why???

[bkkjames]

There's too many quotes to quote..... What is being said here regarding Thai's economic situation is that while it's poor, it's good for the expat, but unfortunately for us expats, their economy might get better which will make it harder on us.

This may be true. But to see Thailands success as a negative????

Why don't you just wish and pray that Thailand's economic situation stagnates so you can exploit the situation forever.

If you love Thailand, you will hope that Her economy will succeed. If you want to exploit the people, hope that Thailand gets poorer.

Siamamerican mentioned that respect from Thais toward expats is diminishing.....I wonder why???

I totally disagree that a poor economy would be good for expats - unless those who say this are referring to those expats that are on retirement visas and are hoping that the price of their beer at mom and pop shop will not increase?

A strong economy is good for everyone - more spending power - more need for expats at growing companies, companies that invest here.

[Harcourt]

There's too many quotes to quote..... What is being said here regarding Thai's economic situation is that while it's poor, it's good for the expat, but unfortunately for us expats, their economy might get better which will make it harder on us.

This may be true. But to see Thailands success as a negative????

Why don't you just wish and pray that Thailand's economic situation stagnates so you can exploit the situation forever.

If you love Thailand, you will hope that Her economy will succeed. If you want to exploit the people, hope that Thailand gets poorer.

Siamamerican mentioned that respect from Thais toward expats is diminishing.....I wonder why???

I totally disagree that a poor economy would be good for expats - unless those who say this are referring to those expats that are on retirement visas and are hoping that the price of their beer at mom and pop shop will not increase?

A strong economy is good for everyone - more spending power - more need for expats at growing companies, companies that invest here.

Why quote me with your disagreement? It's the self-interested, exploitative expats that have posted above that are saying, for example, "...Also, I feel closing the income gap is great for Thais. Might have negative impacts for x-pats. ...."(Siamamerican).

?

[bkkjames]

There's too many quotes to quote..... What is being said here regarding Thai's economic situation is that while it's poor, it's good for the expat, but unfortunately for us expats, their economy might get better which will make it harder on us.

This may be true. But to see Thailands success as a negative????

Why don't you just wish and pray that Thailand's economic situation stagnates so you can exploit the situation forever.

If you love Thailand, you will hope that Her economy will succeed. If you want to exploit the people, hope that Thailand gets poorer.

Siamamerican mentioned that respect from Thais toward expats is diminishing.....I wonder why???

I totally disagree that a poor economy would be good for expats - unless those who say this are referring to those expats that are on retirement visas and are hoping that the price of their beer at mom and pop shop will not increase?

A strong economy is good for everyone - more spending power - more need for expats at growing companies, companies that invest here.

Why quote me with your disagreement? It's the self-interested, exploitative expats that have posted above that are saying, for example, "...Also, I feel closing the income gap is great for Thais. Might have negative impacts for x-pats. ...."(Siamamerican).

?

sorry mate, didnt mean to quote you - just those like you pointed out.

[Harcourt]

I know. But I needed an excuse to say "self-interested exploitative expats" about those people.

Mai pen rai.

[MrHammer]

Is that why the Japanese economy as a whole has been a disaster for the past decade Ian?

I am not Ian, but I would say that the reason the Japanese economy has been in a dump is because of fractional reserve banking run wild with Keynesian inflationary monetary policy. It's the same thing that's happening in the US and it WILL crash the US economy in the same way once inflation and distrust in the dollar really hits home.

[sassienie]

I agree that as the economic situation for Thai people in general improves, their acceptance of foreigners will diminish. So, here we are safely enjoying ourselves nestled between countries like Cambodia and Laos on one side and Myanmar on the other! Seems like a pretty geographically good place at the moment.

I don`t think the Thai acceptance of foreigners will diminish, provided that not too many of them come to live here, especially if these foreigners are not affluent. In that case the Thais will view them as a burden and unwanted.

It`s the same scenario in all countries of the world.

[wolf5370]

From Wikipedia, I was going to say this basically, but it says it better here:

Japanese post-war economic miracle is the name given to the historical phenomenon of Japan's record period of economic growth following World War II, spurred mainly by United States investment but partly by Japanese government economic interventionism in particular through their Ministry of International Trade and Industry.[1] The distinguishing characteristics of the Japanese economy during the "economic miracle" years included: the cooperation of manufacturers, suppliers, distributors, and banks in closely knit groups called keiretsu; the powerful enterprise unions and shuntō; cozy relations with government bureaucrats, and the guarantee of lifetime employment (shūshin koyō) in big corporations and highly unionized blue-collar factories. Since 1993, Japanese companies have begun to abandon some of these norms in an attempt to increase profitability.

Also, Japan was allowed to get away with a lot of 'funky' things that no other country could have - such as price dumping (selling at below cost price to kill of the competition then raising them - i.e. what happened to the US TV manufacturers), inter-company trade coops (Keiretsu) that worked together to keep costs very low and sharing the end profit - price fixing and unfair business practices, and so on. I guess a lot of this was to do with America's guilt post Nagasaki/Hiroshima and the broken country that Japan was.

Thailand has no such 'luck'. Japan also did not have other low cost production competition like Thailand has today - with India and China being the biggest and just about every other SEA country too.

Edited November 2, 2009 by wolf5370

[chriswatson]

Japan was also, up until recently, a "one-party democracy".

Thailand by contrast must be viewed as very unstable, and instability a good economy plan does not make.

Back to the OP - I know it always takes time for me to adjust when I come over. However, the less I come, the harder it gets.

Edited November 2, 2009 by chriswatson

[Jimjim]

I'll admit that I worry that Thais are becoming less respectful to us westerners. They will naturally become less accommodating to westerners as the wealth gap closes. Also, I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

You say; I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

Now who’s being pessimistic?

As I stated above, I admit I also worry. Never claimed to be perfect . Also, I feel closing the income gap is great for Thais. Might have negative impacts for x-pats.

All the same that will not happen over night and Thailand will continue to be a cheap place to live relative to other countries for many years to come. I'm in the U.S. now and itching to go back to Thailand as I'm a cheapskate and it's a million times easier to not spend too much money for me, in Thailand. The cost of living Western countries has been going up at a steady rate. So if the same happens in Thailand, no bother, it's still cheaper to live in Thailand than most places.

[Daewoo]

<snip>

But, some smart Japanese business men had things figured out and hired German technology to transform their companies into world leaders. When Japan started marketing high quality goods at low prices the whole world came knocking on their door and their economy soared.<snip>

Just one thing... and I ain't no yankie, so this isn't some nationalistic bullsh!t...

It was actually an American W. Edwards Demingwho taught the Japanese about quaility... He tried all of the companies in America and they wouldn't listen... they thought their practices were superior by default... Dr Deming found a ready audience in Japan, and it went from Jap Crap to Sony Quality...

What do you think when you see "American Standard" on a toilet cistern??? for me I don't think quality...

As also posted above, the Japanese also have very good government policies on targeting particular industries to 'take control' (electronics first, then Automotive)... The Koreans have started doing the same thing with ship building...

Unfortunately, us Aussie rely on digging every growing holes in the desert and shipping dirt to China... The US doesn't even really have that going for them...

Cheers,

Daewoo

[PeaceBlondie]

Maybe overall, the average Thai is becoming less tolerant of excessive farang long-term expats. Usually, I think most average Thais in the Thai social structure have been non-inclusive (xenophobic). If it's true that the Gini coefficients of wealth and income disparity here are still very unbalanced, perhaps Thailand will never ever be a first world country.

My rose-coloured glasses broke, but it's still a great place to live cheaply.

[Ulysses G.]

I love Thailand, but most Thais have no work ethic and the education system is terrible. The chances of them "closing the income gap" with the West is pretty darn low.

[whistleblower]

More times than I would have liked I've come across as a hot head or even worse a pr!ck on this forum. Been working on controlling that fire over the last year since moving to Thailand. Still have difficulties conversing with perpetual pessimists and those that can't comprehend they aren't superior to Thais( hmm, or Americans). We all are imperfect and I'm probably less in control of my emotions, even now, than most but I do control my temper during my interactions with Thais in public.

I spent the first 6 months of the year driving throughout Thailand and witnessed part and full time x- pats , on too many occasions, behaving extremely inconsiderate. The main reason for the behavior is the simple fact that it is done differently in their home country. I'm a proud American but have come to the realization over the years that we as a whole are far from perfect and I have never been to a country that is close to perfect. Losing your cool and insulting Thais because their means of doing things isn't exactly going to garner respect.

The constant posts about how Thailand is becoming Xenophobic seem to be misdirected. From my experience, many westerners are becoming more fearful of Thais. I'll admit that I worry that Thais are becoming less respectful to us westerners. They will naturally become less accommodating to westerners as the wealth gap closes. Also, I fear Thailand's economic growth over the last 20 years is going to continue and it will not be the fun and cheap country it is today.

I love Thailand and below are some of my reasons. Didn't list the numerous problems with Thailand because none are really worth mentioning. I'm just going to enjoy what I have today and realize things are going to change and probably for the worse for us x-pats.

*Affordable housing

*Entertainment

*Cost and availability of restaurants

*Transportation Options ( In America it is horrendous)

*Service at hospitals

*Health care costs ( early 40s but have had great outcomes for broken bones and other issues)

*Service at government offices (oddly enough this where I've seen quite a few Farangs insulting Thais. Maybe in Europe the service is better than in the US but I doubt it)

*Friendly attitude of Thais ( again, maybe people are friendlier in Europe vs USA)

I think a lot depends on Why/Where the Farang is in Thailand. A lot of the ones that are blissfully happy in Thailand are possibly the older (maybe retired) group that live up country. A simpler life than living in the city, and probably well looked after by the extended family as he is the cash cow. Living in the city, you come across more of the nuances of everyday life. Things like going to the bank, change passbook shopping, govt offices etc will also cause a certain amount of frustration amongst Farangs because (a) It is not as efficient as in our own country (unless your from Kazikstan!) ( As we are perceived to be richer that them, they will always be trying to screw you for more money. © Everyone in this country is corrupt!!! They see their leaders do it, the police do it and it filters down to every lever.

[whistleblower]

*Affordable housing

*Entertainment

*Cost and availability of restaurants

*Transportation Options ( In America it is horrendous)

*Service at hospitals

*Health care costs ( early 40s but have had great outcomes for broken bones and other issues)

*Service at government offices (oddly enough this where I've seen quite a few Farangs insulting Thais. Maybe in Europe the service is better than in the US but I doubt it)

*Friendly attitude of Thais ( again, maybe people are friendlier in Europe vs USA)

If you rent, I agree you can get some great deals. If you buy, you cant put it in your name. I also think The actual quality of builders/buildings are not of the quality of the west. Point to note Thais can own land/property in the west.

Entertainment? What entertainment are you talking about? If you dont want to whore it everynight, i havent seen much in the way of entertainment.

Cost and availability of restaurants are good, but I have noticed lately that prices have shot up. (exchange rate plays a part in this) Service is still substandard though.

Transportation options. You say in USA its horrendous. Dont you have planes, trains, cars, buses, taxis or boats?. The cost of transport here is cheap, but i dont think ive ever read a story about a public transport accident where the driver Never fled the scene. Checks and balances on employees is not like it is in the west.

You get good service at hospitals because you pay for it. You said your insured, so the Hospitals you would go to know they are gonna get paid. (and most of those top hospitals are foreign owned/run)

Service at government offices. I really cant believe that the US is worse than Thailand. Here they have outdated sytems, lazy officials and corrupt practices.

Friendly attitude of Thais? How many THAI friends do you have? I dont mean the missus friends or people you say hello to where you live, i mean a Thai friend that you regularly interact with socially? That thai smile doesnt always mean theyre happy you know.

[mizzi39]

Is that why the Japanese economy as a whole has been a disaster for the past decade Ian?

Not really. Japan is still a world leader. But, all countries grow to a certain size before everything levels off. It happened to Great Britain and the USA as well. Last year's disaster in the world economy was brought on by American greed and corruption. I'll bet if you examined the internal workings of large Japanese companies it was greed at the top that caused the problems they faced 10 years ago. It all levels off eventually and slowly things balance out.

Last years economic collapse was brought on by corruption from INTERNATIONAL bankers, this includes high powered greed from the Great Britain and the EU and not American greed alone. The only country sitting pretty and not suffering during these times is probably China with their socialist-capital ideals. Capitalism is greed, and greed is capitalism.

[siamamerican]

I think the main reason for most of the complaints is there ARE ways to do things better... no matter what country you live in. Despite Thailand being a lovely place to retire, if you have an adequate income, there are still many problems that could be and should be sorted out. But, that is true wherever you live. I happen to live in Canada, and spend 5 months each year living in Thailand during Canada's winter. I complain about Canada all the time, and think our government officials are a bunch of scammers no matter which party gets elected. I think our so called Justice System is a disgrace. I also think our once great police force, the RCMP, has fallen to a very sad level. It was once the greatest police force in the world and thought highly of by every other country, but now you can't trust any of them.

So, when I hear expats in Thailand complaining, I give them a little slack. They usually are touching on real problems that should be sorted out, but aren't. I won't go into all the problem areas because I can balance them out with so many good things that it makes my few complaints look trivial.

I agree. My OP was a somewhat scrambled. What I was trying to say was that some/many X-pats lack class when dealing with Thais in public. You brought up good points and their attitude may be a product of their frustrations with Thailand's way of doing certain things. Before blowing their tops in the post office or, even worse, at their GF/wife in public; taking a moment to grasp the root of the problem might improve the outcome.

[siamamerican]

I agree that as the economic situation for Thai people in general improves, their acceptance of foreigners will diminish. So, here we are safely enjoying ourselves nestled between countries like Cambodia and Laos on one side and Myanmar on the other! Seems like a pretty geographically good place at the moment.

Funny, I was thinking the same thing the other day. We have so many options if life in Thailand loses its shine. Not having kids provides the wife and I freedom to explore. I'm sure children are wonderful but not having them does have its benefits also.

[whistleblower]

I think the main reason for most of the complaints is there ARE ways to do things better... no matter what country you live in. Despite Thailand being a lovely place to retire, if you have an adequate income, there are still many problems that could be and should be sorted out. But, that is true wherever you live. I happen to live in Canada, and spend 5 months each year living in Thailand during Canada's winter. I complain about Canada all the time, and think our government officials are a bunch of scammers no matter which party gets elected. I think our so called Justice System is a disgrace. I also think our once great police force, the RCMP, has fallen to a very sad level. It was once the greatest police force in the world and thought highly of by every other country, but now you can't trust any of them.

So, when I hear expats in Thailand complaining, I give them a little slack. They usually are touching on real problems that should be sorted out, but aren't. I won't go into all the problem areas because I can balance them out with so many good things that it makes my few complaints look trivial.

I agree. My OP was a somewhat scrambled. What I was trying to say was that some/many X-pats lack class when dealing with Thais in public. You brought up good points and their attitude may be a product of their frustrations with Thailand's way of doing certain things. Before blowing their tops in the post office or, even worse, at their GF/wife in public; taking a moment to grasp the root of the problem might improve the outcome.

So you tell me a Thai that (a) ever acts with class ( ever acts with anything but contempt when dealing with westerners. You either an ultra pacifist or you dont get out much.

I had an incident in Tescos where a Thai women just pushed in front of me, (and others). When I pointed out that there was a queue and I was before her, I got the 'This is Thailand and I am Thai' speech.

What would you have done?

[siamamerican]

There's too many quotes to quote..... What is being said here regarding Thai's economic situation is that while it's poor, it's good for the expat, but unfortunately for us expats, their economy might get better which will make it harder on us.

This may be true. But to see Thailands success as a negative????

Why don't you just wish and pray that Thailand's economic situation stagnates so you can exploit the situation forever.

If you love Thailand, you will hope that Her economy will succeed. If you want to exploit the people, hope that Thailand gets poorer.

Siamamerican mentioned that respect from Thais toward expats is diminishing.....I wonder why???

I certainly don't want Thailand's citizens to be hurt by my presence. I think this is partly a syntax issue but, to be honest, the criticism was well directed to some extent. There is a part of me that would favor Thailand's economic growth to slow. Selfish yes, but can't deny it.