Expat Bashing From Your Home Country?

[Jingthing]

I am happy this thread gave you the opportunity to get that off your chest, Rumfoord. Any further comment would be superfluous.

Edited November 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[phetaroi]

Compare JFK's "Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty." How different is that, actually, than George Bush's policy in Iraq? How successful are we going to ultimately be in Iraq, as compared to the Kennedy/LBJ war in Vietnam? Yet, look how differently Kennedy's message is perceived to be than George Bush's message.

I am not an American, I am an Australian. I hope that I have the right to post on this thread, particularly on this post, given that Australia wholeheartedly supported American endeavours in both Vietnam and Iraq.

For starters, JFK did not go into Vietnam on the basis of a lie. (LBJ escalated the war on the basis of a lie, but that is a different story). In retrospect, it might have been better to allow the communists to take over the whole country, as they would have if the US had not intervened. However, what effect that victory might have had in later conflicts and negotiations is not clear. I suspect if you ask the average Thai (who is old enough to remember) whether they are happy that the US intervened in Vietnam, the answer would be an unqualified "yes". At least the Yanks bought time, and put a high price on a communist takeover.

After 9/11, the US had huge reservoirs of goodwill, all around the world. Whether or not muslims in your own country condemned 9/11, a vast majority of the world's population did, openly and emotionally.

And what did Bush do? Invaded Iraq on a false pretext, without sufficient troops, and without any clear strategy - other than deposing Saddam, and of course, upending his statue for the world press to record. Allowed the disbanding of the existing security forces which meant that hundreds of thousands of armed, trained, combatants were thrown onto the streets without any sort of financial support. Stood by while precious and irreplaceable civilian treasures were openly looted. Did not show the slightest comprehension of the rifts in Islam, even the basic and important Shia/Shiite rift between Iraq and Iran. And, like a little tin soldier, claimed "Mission Accomplished". Many hundreds of billions of US dollars later, not to mention hundreds of thousands of civilian and combat lives, we are still there.

As to which conflict will come to the better conclusion, no doubt the people of Vietnam and Iraq will suffer for generations. Perhaps neither of them will be better off.

I declare it a dishonourable draw, but cannot blame JFK. If he had lived, perhaps he would have had the sense not to escalate the conflict.

Of course you have a right to post! Welcome to the discussion...even though we clearly disagree!

I disagree with you about how Kennedy "went into" Vietnam. The Kennedy administration was deeply involved in playing undercover games that led to the steady increase of U.S. personnel in Vietnam. The administration appears to have some role in the assassination of Diem, at the very least giving tacit approval because they thought it would shorten the threat. The Kennedy administration played games all over the world, from Vietnam to the Bay of Pigs...and failed in almost every one. Kennedy, along with other U.S. presidents of the era continuously played the puppet game, involving minor countries to fight the battles that we were only willing to fight in terms of a Cold War.

When you say, "At least the Yanks bought time, and put a high price on a communist takeover," you're right. The price was very high for a people who mostly just wanted to escape from U.S. supported French colonialism. It is estimated that 5.4 million Vietnamese died in the struggle during the time America was attempting to pull the strings.

Yes, many around the world did condemn 9/11. But that wasn't the point I stated, which was in direct relationship to the original post of this thread -- expats in a country. Muslim immigrants to the U.S. were for the most part very silent.

[thatguy]

Telling people that FOX is entertainment , not news, is as futile as telling them that Professional Wrestling is entertainment, not a contest.

Most people already get it, it just confuses or angers those that don't, and gives the wrestlers an opportunity to act offended and say it isn't so.

[phetaroi]

However, I am certainly not the only one who sees demagoguery in Huckabee:

Governor Huckabee is an ignorant demagogue driven by his view of Christian dogma (don't howl, I am a Christian too) who obviously intends to apply his reading of the Bible to government.

http://www.nowpublic.com/opinions/mike-huc...ly-gone-too-far

Tell me about what you know about Joelle Rose and why her opinion should matter.

[Rumfoord]

to get the proof for that and also answer your question make a probe, here on TVforum, the webboard for an international expat community, members from all over the world, from many different countries.

now check, how many of them open a topic about the domestic political issues back in their home country, praising us their Prime Minister or telling us stories about what they watched last night in the domestic TV channel that runs the propaganda for the opposition, and than bitch about that opposition Channel and claiming to be smarter than FOX news?

you see that from French, Irish, Mexican, Canadian, Brasilian, Spaniards, Italian, Russian, Japanese, Swedes, Poles, Egyptian and so on?

No, but many of these members from all over the world might very well start a thread about American politics or Barack Obama even though they would not start one about their own country.

That is because, at the moment, what happens in the the U.S. is important to the whole world just like back when England used to rule the world and the waves.

Some people like America and some rather have China or Russia in charge and someday they may get their wish, but bitching about people's interest in the U.S. just makes one look the fool. There is a reason that they call the American President the leader of the free world - that is pretty much what he is whether you like it, or not.

the Obama thing wasn't the big issue here, but some side show.

so according to jingthong, he listen to some commentator on a TV channel, back home in USofAland, a TV channel of questionable reputation and the commentator is a dummkopf anyway (according to jingthong). so long, nobody would care about what happen on that show, but then this TV buffoon dared to judge 'people who leave America as the most heinous kind of unpatriotic types.' (according to jingthing) but still a thing nobody would give a sh*t about.

nobody?, not real, there is one true partriot abroad, in Bahtbusland, he isn't unpatriotic like the dummkopf on the TV channel said.

so that patriotic US.american goes to the Bahtbusland forum, an international community of bahtbuslandriders and ask the others if they have similar seizure disorders of being a patriot.

my guess is not, nobody else, who comes from other country does something like this here, not really.

the other issue is the idea that the USofA as the leading nation of the free world, that is what US-Americans think of themselves.

others might see it as unwarranted self-importance, us- american hubris - that is pretty much what it is whether you like it, or not.

perpetual bragging and telling everybody that your are the BOSS and your are the MAN, and never question yourself if your really get everything right, this way you don't make much friends in an international circle.

and when members of other nations open here a new thread about the USofA it is probably not to praise the USofA as the leader of the free world, right?

[Huey]

Telling people that FOX is entertainment , not news, is as futile as telling them that Professional Wrestling is entertainment, not a contest.

Most people already get it, it just confuses or angers those that don't, and gives the wrestlers an opportunity to act offended and say it isn't so.

Great analogy, simple and accurately put.

[Nio]

I vote jimthing personally calls Huckerbee and gets this clarified in a personal interview.

[Jingthing]

I vote jimthing personally calls Huckerbee and gets this clarified in a personal interview.

I tried to post on his "free speech" feedback board at his website and they did not allow the comment (he's only interested in people who agree with him).

[ozzieovaseas]

"The highest treason in the USA is to say Americans are not loved, no matter where they are, no matter what they are doing there." Kurt Vonnegut in A Man Without a Country. (2005).

and that is exactly your issue here.

Actually, I can say with full confidence that is most definitely NOT what this topic is about. At all! Next ...

erm, isn't that your point and defence line against a 'false accusation'? the question about to love America or not.

according to you this patriot at the FOX channel rant about US-Americans who had left the country, "demonize people who leave America as the most heinous kind of unpatriotic types. " accuse them not be the wholehearted patriots, not to love their country, be unpatriotic. right, that is your problem?

you get agited and rant against FOX, because such statement is untrue, you totally burst out of full love for your country. right?

"Leaving doesn't usually mean we are more or less patriotic than our less adventurous brothers who stay home and it doesn't always mean we won't be back someday."

your defense and argument is that you not hate America, like falsely accused by nationalistic dimwits.

somewhat said to you: 'hey jingthong, you left america with a one way ticket, so i must assume you don't love our great nation' you could give a sh*t about, but being an American like in the Vonnegut quote above you go crazy, because he accused you of what you see yourself as the worst offence - not to love US-America.

and now you diss me, because i obviously not love the silly way like you and other us-americans love their country.

Hey Rumfoord..you wouldnt possibly be of Thai descendance would you??

I dont ask this because of your English, but just that you got the OP's name wrong..its Jingthing..not jingthong!!!..and definately not tingtong

[Jingthing]

Rum, I think it is quite normal for citizens of any country to love their country, whether they live there or expatriate. I don't expect non-Americans to love America, but I am glad if they do (but I am not sure why they would). Its like loving your family, you do even if they are deeply flawed, and they usually are!

Edited November 4, 2009 by Jingthing

[Rumfoord]

I vote jimthing personally calls Huckerbee and gets this clarified in a personal interview.

I tried to post on his "free speech" feedback board at his website and they did not allow the comment (he's only interested in people who agree with him).

how about to send this Huckerbee a personal e-mail and tell him that you would put him on Ignore which means you will never respond with a feed back ever again on his "free speech" board. but even if you do that what you don't do ever again you will still watch his show, and if there is anything that deserve to open a new topic on the bahtbusland forum, you will still open a new topic and reports his misbehaviour to the community of the bahtbusland forum.

best way will be to send him 3-4 of such e-mails at an half hour interval. maybe he laugh himself to death while reading them.

Edited November 5, 2009 by bonobo
Removed a somewhat flaming sentence.

[wamberal]

Of course you have a right to post! Welcome to the discussion...even though we clearly disagree!

I disagree with you about how Kennedy "went into" Vietnam. The Kennedy administration was deeply involved in playing undercover games that led to the steady increase of U.S. personnel in Vietnam. The administration appears to have some role in the assassination of Diem, at the very least giving tacit approval because they thought it would shorten the threat. The Kennedy administration played games all over the world, from Vietnam to the Bay of Pigs...and failed in almost every one. Kennedy, along with other U.S. presidents of the era continuously played the puppet game, involving minor countries to fight the battles that we were only willing to fight in terms of a Cold War.

When you say, "At least the Yanks bought time, and put a high price on a communist takeover," you're right. The price was very high for a people who mostly just wanted to escape from U.S. supported French colonialism. It is estimated that 5.4 million Vietnamese died in the struggle during the time America was attempting to pull the strings.

Yes, many around the world did condemn 9/11. But that wasn't the point I stated, which was in direct relationship to the original post of this thread -- expats in a country. Muslim immigrants to the U.S. were for the most part very silent.

History will be the judge, I suppose, of both Kennedy and Bush. Kennedy at the very least handled the Cuban missile crisis effectively, I personally struggle to find any success in Bush Jnrs two terms, in fact he seems to have presided over a series of major failures in both policy and execution, both at home and abroad.

As for Muslim immigrants to the US, how outspoken are they in normal times? What sort of publicity do their views get on other issues? Or are their views only sought on certain occasions, like 9/11?

And how many of them have family/friends back in unfriendly regimes? Perhaps they just wanted to keep their heads down, and avoid the possibility of reprisals in their countries of origin.

[PeaceBlondie]

....Now I realize many people leave their countries for negative reasons (they really hate their countries for whatever reasons) but in my view most of us leave our countries for POSITIVE reasons (because we have really good reasons to go the country we are moving to). Leaving doesn't usually mean we are more or less patriotic than our less adventurous brothers who stay home and it doesn't always mean we won't be back someday.....

So my intention here is for expats from different countries to discuss whether there are political factions in their home countries which bash expats, or not. I really don't know or have any preconceived notions about it.

This would have started it, Jingthing - no mention of the USA; something a Brit or Ozzie could have said. No, you had to drag USA into it. So you get what we have here.

[Ulysses G.]

Telling people that FOX is entertainment , not news, is as futile as telling them that Professional Wrestling is entertainment, not a contest.

Fox is more entertaining than the BBC or CNN, but they are just as biased towards the left as Fox is to the right. TV News is not known for being fair to everybody!

[endure]

Telling people that FOX is entertainment , not news, is as futile as telling them that Professional Wrestling is entertainment, not a contest.

Fox is more entertaining than the BBC or CNN, but they are just as biased towards the left as Fox is to the right. TV News is not known for being fair to everybody!

The Beeb and CNN understand the difference between news and opinion - Fox thinks they're one and the same.

[phetaroi]

the other issue is the idea that the USofA as the leading nation of the free world, that is what US-Americans think of themselves.

others might see it as unwarranted self-importance, us- american hubris - that is pretty much what it is whether you like it, or not.

perpetual bragging and telling everybody that your are the BOSS and your are the MAN, and never question yourself if your really get everything right, this way you don't make much friends in an international circle. and when members of other nations open here a new thread about the USofA it is probably not to praise the USofA as the leader of the free world, right?

Okay, yada yada. So which nation in the "free world" is the most influential?

[Ulysses G.]

and when members of other nations open here a new thread about the USofA it is probably not to praise the USofA as the leader of the free world, right?

Most websites seem to attract a lot of loonies and losers who do nothing but bitch about everyone and everything. It is no surprise that they are not praising the US as they seem to reserve that for Fidel Castro, Hamas and Bin Ladin.

However, most polls reveal that a lot of foreigners are quite friendly towards America and Americans, but don't feel the need to go around shoving their views in everyone's face.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[phetaroi]

History will be the judge, I suppose, of both Kennedy and Bush. Kennedy at the very least handled the Cuban missile crisis effectively, I personally struggle to find any success in Bush Jnrs two terms, in fact he seems to have presided over a series of major failures in both policy and execution, both at home and abroad.

As for Muslim immigrants to the US, how outspoken are they in normal times? What sort of publicity do their views get on other issues? Or are their views only sought on certain occasions, like 9/11?

And how many of them have family/friends back in unfriendly regimes? Perhaps they just wanted to keep their heads down, and avoid the possibility of reprisals in their countries of origin.

I guess I should state, by the way, that I am a Democrat and think Bush was a lousy president...just for the record.

I'm not sure I agree that Kennedy handled the Cuban Missile Crisis effectively. Most believe we were closer to nuclear war than at any other time in our history.

Muslim organizations in the U.S. can be quite outspoken about various issues that involve them. That's to be expected, of course. I would say that Muslim terrorism against the country in which they and their families are living involves them.

Your second point is a good one.

[Ulysses G.]

Telling people that FOX is entertainment , not news, is as futile as telling them that Professional Wrestling is entertainment, not a contest.

Fox is more entertaining than the BBC or CNN, but they are just as biased towards the left as Fox is to the right. TV News is not known for being fair to everybody!

The Beeb and CNN understand the difference between news and opinion...

A FOX viewer would tell you exactly the same thing about FOX - It always seems that way when someone is telling you what you want to hear. The BBC and CNN are just as biased from a different point of view.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[baksiidaa]

Don't blame it on conservatives. Huckabee is just an idiot. I'm conservative and love the experience of living abroad. In fact, now more than ever is a great time for conservatives to take a break from the home land and live overseas.

[OriginalPoster]

Leaving aside the issue of whether Huckabee really implied what Jingthing is inferring from his comments - no, I don't find that people back home (in the US) think it unpatriotic of me to live and work abroad. Certainly I meet people that have no interest in travelling abroad, but I meet just as many (perhaps more) who are openly envious of me for doing so. To many who envy it, it sounds like a very romantic way of life, to others it sounds like a lucrative prospect. Even among those who have no desire to go abroad themselves, I can't recall any expressing disapproval of other people doing it.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't see that Huckabee and jingthing are talking about the same thing in any way shape or form, but I also have never heard of Americans looking down on anyone for living abroad. They may think that they are a little crazy living somewhere with all those diseases and natural disasters, but not much else.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Ulysses G.

[barky]

It would be interesting to hear Thais opinion on this. What do Thais think about Thais who go abroad for longer periods? (not talking study or summer jobs)

Firstly, very, very few Thais , who are not going for study purposes, go overseas.

There is a small proportion who go for short work contracts ie: men to do labouring, welding etc to the middle east or Australia , for example, or women to massage parlours or restaurants in places such as Australia or even Singapore.

The vast majority of Thais who go abroad long term are, of course, newly married brides of an expat (Brit, Aussie, Swiss, Yank etc etc).

So, in the end you are left with a miniscule number of Thais who have the guts, the brains, the balls, the skills (including language) and the talent to venture overseas. And, when they do, they almost always head straight for the local Thai community in Sydney, LA, London, etc to stay with an Aunt or sister or such otherwise they would simply find it almost impossible to survive on their own.

Unlike the hordes of expat westeners strewn around the globe, the number of Thais who go abroad expecting to survive and prosper under their own power, intellegence, drive, intestinal fortitude, and wit can be counted on one hand!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In comment to the OP topic, I think that many western countriy's peoples have sold themselves out, thrown away their herritage, their culture etc and embraced mutli-culturalism to the point they frown upon or laugh at their own people's patriotism while supporting both verbally and financially the rights of immigrants both legal and illegal .

Whilst there may be some things I do not like about Thais and Thailand, I must say that I do admire their sense of patriotism and the wish to maintain as much of their culture as possible ( although if you look at it from a business point of view most are more interested in making money and pay only lip service to culture for non-Thai consumption). However, their nationalistic propaganda that they are force fed on, and try to ram down the throats of westeners is somewhat boring and tiresome.... eyes glaze over...yawn!!.

Edited November 5, 2009 by barky

[bendejo]

I think Obama's team made a big mistake in declaring FN an outright adversary.

He's been making this mistake all along, mentioning the names of right-wing blowhards in front of cameras. He was a law student, then a law professor, then went into community politics. One thing he has no understanding of is celebrity culture (and I use the word culture only for lack of a better term). But he's learning. I hope.

He doesn't understanding that by saying "are you going to believe me or Sean Hannity?" that he's just giving the latter more fodder for his airtime, and I could just see SH's schoolyard bully smile as he replays the soundbite on his show. O doesn't realize these guys are just manifestations of Ted Baxter, maybe he should watch videos of the old Mary Tyler Moore show. FN is making the most of it, with Murdoch himself goading it on. Wouldn't surprise me if Huckabee's producers told him something like "make it more ridiculous than usual, orders from the top."

O should take on Madonna as a media adviser. He needs to understand nearly all bad publicity can be turned to advantage (hey, I said NEARLY!).

Remember when Don Imus got caught on the racist gaff and had to leave his network? I predicted then that after this blows over he'll end up on Fox News, I just found out yesterday that it happened. How was I able to call that one? Well, I knew he was pals with Ailes.

[chuckd]

I imagine Governor Huckabee was actually referring to incidents such as this one:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/mexicoflag.asp

This particular incident was in 1996, but it would qualify under my definition of..."If you don't like the US, go back home."

I seriously doubt Huckabee was trying to say evil things about expats. I would be greatly surprised if Huckabee is even aware there are expat communities of US citizens scattered around the world. Politicians give little thought to those that might be non-voters.

All this talk about Fox and little talk about MSNBC, where Keith Olberman spews his venom and Chris Matthews gets tingles up his leg when he hears Obama speak?

[bernie66]

They will sow what they reap and I hope I don’t have to ever go back. The thing that disturbs me is the democrats outsourcing our work. Unemployment at 10%, a failing economy and they are going to lowest bidder and pushing out any company that supports the Republican Party or hires a majority of Expatriates. All the money we spend overseas is flowing right out of our economy because it is being spent in the countries of whom they hire to do the work. In the past year they have doubled the cost of services while reducing quality.

What is the problem with these idiots? They hire half of Mexico so that their stock goes up and executives make more money then act surprised when we are overrun at the border. They spend billions to arrest high school kids for smoking weed and trafficking amounts of dope that they have to strip search and fondle to find then looked alarmed when the Mexican mafia takes over the drug trade shipping in tons a day. They want to fix the cost health care but never question why it is too expensive for anyone to afford and does not have fixed prices for services.

The American people are brainwashed and stupid, I am glad I got out. They think insurance is an investment and are to blind to see that mandatory insurance is anything other than a tax. They think they have good health care even though their hospitals kill more people a year than guns, heroin, alcohol, and cigarettes combined. They are putting band aids on gapping flesh wounds for short term goals and notoriety for even shorter terms in office.

They have only begun to attack us because people who live outside the country see things they don’t want us to see. Such as walking into the Bangkok hospital emergency room and being treated in less than 30 min for $40.They do not want a population of traveled American citizens because this would make their policies transparent in the public eye so they will continue to keep us from making too much money. The same as a communist government does not let their citizens leave their country they will inadvertently become what they despise.

Don’t worry about the patriotism rhetoric brother, it’s just a slander word used to manipulate us into not questioning authority and policies of their socialist agenda. That’s not the flag we fought for 20 years ago hanging in that gym. Its the new cover page to a democratic manual on how to turn Washington into Hollywood.

[Rumfoord]

I imagine Governor Huckabee was actually referring to incidents such as this one:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/mexicoflag.asp

This particular incident was in 1996, but it would qualify under my definition of..."If you don't like the US, go back home."

i didn't read the full story at snopes, but wasn't California part of Mexico just 150 years ago. in this case, who should go home where?

[Jingthing]

I am calling a foul here. The Huckabee rant I was referring to was about regular American citizens complaining about an American flag at their gym. It had NOTHING to do with Mexicans asserting hegemony over the USA in the USA. The way some people are trying to spin this topic is truly amazing.

Mods, I am sorry if I framed this thread in a way that led to this. There doesn't seem to be any real hope that people will talk about the actual topic. Please close it.

Edited November 5, 2009 by Jingthing

[chuckd]

I imagine Governor Huckabee was actually referring to incidents such as this one:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/mexicoflag.asp

This particular incident was in 1996, but it would qualify under my definition of..."If you don't like the US, go back home."

i didn't read the full story at snopes, but wasn't California part of Mexico just 150 years ago. in this case, who should go home where?

The illegal aliens should go home.

Mexico owned the southwest, Alaska was owned by Russia, France owned the Louisiana territories and England and Spain owned most of the eastern seaboard of the US.

Mexico was previously owned by Spain.

Should the illegal alien Mexicans go to Spain or Mexico?

[Rumfoord]

I imagine Governor Huckabee was actually referring to incidents such as this one:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/mexicoflag.asp

This particular incident was in 1996, but it would qualify under my definition of..."If you don't like the US, go back home."

i didn't read the full story at snopes, but wasn't California part of Mexico just 150 years ago. in this case, who should go home where?

The illegal aliens should go home.

Mexico owned the southwest, Alaska was owned by Russia, France owned the Louisiana territories and England and Spain owned most of the eastern seaboard of the US.

Mexico was previously owned by Spain.

Should the illegal alien Mexicans go to Spain or Mexico?

the questions is what makes the other 'aliens' legal? no alien should be illegal anywhere.

remember that singer who had the sticker that said This Machine Kills Fascists displayed on his guitar.

he sang the famous song, full of a spirit, next to killing fascists, Americans are loved for:

As I went walking I saw a sign there

And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."

But on the other side it didn't say nothing,

That side was made for you and me.

Nobody living can ever stop me,

As I go walking that freedom highway;

Nobody living can ever make me turn back

This land was made for you and me.