Low Water Pressure On The Top Floor

[deejah]

any suggestions besides moving?

if the ground floor is 1, the top floor is 5

the pressure on floor four is ok

however i want to stay in top floor unit

landlady says all the buildings are like that

but i checked the fifth floor right next door and that wasn't the case

also there are plenty of buildings over 5 stories with plumbing that works

(i haven't told her any of this yet)

QUESTIONS:

how does the plumbing function?

the water pump sends the water to a tank on the roof and it flows down to the rooms from there?

if this is the case, the pressure should be highest on the fifth floor, n'est pas?

or does the water pump downstairs send the water up to the rooms making the fifth floor the weakest?

advice or suggestions how to remedy the situation?

i suggested replacing the shower head

which might help but won't do a thing for the bum gun

i also suggested reducing the rent to reflect the value of the room

sometimes getting things done here is a real challenge

live with it and don't let it get to me?

thanks in advance

[lopburi3]

The higher the tank the higher the pressure if just using the tank (no pump on output) - am sure you will have a roof tank so the pressure is lowest at the high level and highest at the low level.

[Curt1591]

The higher the tank is, in relation to the tap, the higher the pressure will be. Therefore, the higher up you are in the building, the lower the pressure will be.

We have an "on demand" pump, beyond the ground level tank. It pumps water into the pipes when we turn on the tap. That makes for a pressurized system.

[deejah]

i am pretty sure there is a tank on the roof and a pump on the ground floor

had problems with the pump in the past not working properly and not getting water

that has been fixed but the pressure hasn't

thanks

[keestha]

If you really like the apartment (apart from this problem) and you want to stay there, you could install a small waterpump where the pipe comes into your apartment, if the landlady agrees to this. Such a pump costs about 5000 Baht, it will switch on every time you use water, and it generates very little noise.

[lopburi3]

Some may be quite but most are rather noisy and expect would not be appreciated by other apartment dwellers.

[h90]

no matter if you get the water from the top tank or from the pump. The top floor is always the lowest pressure.

Ten Meter of water (no matter if in the tube or if you are diving) is approx. 1 bar of pressure.

For example: you get the water from the tank on the top and the building is 15 meter tall.

Your shower head (is it called like that in english??) is 2 meter under the tank than you have 0.2 bar.

(my wife calls that pressure on the shower: "pipi of children").

While in the first floor maybe 14 meter down from the tank they get 1.4 bar which is is OK.

Or if they use a pump which makes 1.5 bar for example.

It is on ground level and the shower head is 1 meter high in the first floor: They get 1.4 bar=ok

Your shower head is at 13 meter so you get 1.5-1.3=0.2 bar.

[deejah]

ok so i can install or have her install an extra cheap water pump for my unit only

if i ask here to replace the current one on the ground floor with a more powerful one, instead of installing an additional one, would that solve the problem?

or is the limit of the pressure due to the height of the unit from the pump

so with tall buildings they have multiple pumps on multiple levels?

i understand water pumps are not expensive, what type/size units are available?

what are the cost ranges and where is the best place to buy them

the 5000 baht one sounds like a possible option as an add-on for my unit

how easy to install?

thanks all

[soundman]

Moved to DIY forum.

[longball53098]

From what I read here and if I understand the system you have the pump on the ground floor does nothing more than pump water up to the roof tank and in no way makes pressure to the rooms. The water is supplied to the rooms on the floors by gravity. The weight of the water and the height above the rooms makes the pressure. So as someone already said, the rooms on the top floor just below the tank get water but the pressure is low because the tank is just two or 3 meters above the sinks and showers. The rooms on the lower floors will get increasingly higher pressure as the tank is higher and higher above each floor. So if you can move down to say the 1st floor above the ground floor then you would have decent pressure and flow even when the tank gets low on water.

If you cannot move down and remain on the top floor then an on demand pump added to you're room only is need to increase your pressure.

[dddave]

If neighboring units have decent pressure then I would guess that there is some sort of obstruction in the supply pipe, shut-off valve or water meter that services your room. The plastic supply lines can kink or get crushed or blocked with a piece of debris from the water tank.

Often, the supply pipes are buried in cement and difficult to access but it's worth trying to check.

Otherwise, a water barrel and dip pan for ap-nam, left hand dexterity for the bum.

[trogers]

If neighboring units have decent pressure then I would guess that there is some sort of obstruction in the supply pipe, shut-off valve or water meter that services your room. The plastic supply lines can kink or get crushed or blocked with a piece of debris from the water tank.

Often, the supply pipes are buried in cement and difficult to access but it's worth trying to check.

Otherwise, a water barrel and dip pan for ap-nam, left hand dexterity for the bum.

In a 8-floor condo, units in the top 2 floors have to be fed through a water pump from water of the roof tank. Same applies for a 5-floor apartment as the water head from the roof tank to the 2 top floors is too small to provide decent water pressure.

Installing a pump along the inlet pipe of your unit will cause other units on your floor to lose whatever pressure they have...

The apartment owner should install a properly sized water pump at roof level to boost pressure in the main distribution pipe for the top 2 floors.

[AsiaCheese]

In a 8-floor condo, units in the top 2 floors have to be fed through a water pump from water of the roof tank. Same applies for a 5-floor apartment as the water head from the roof tank to the 2 top floors is too small to provide decent water pressure.

Installing a pump along the inlet pipe of your unit will cause other units on your floor to lose whatever pressure they have...

The apartment owner should install a properly sized water pump at roof level to boost pressure in the main distribution pipe for the top 2 floors.

Moot point: everyone on the top floor(s) will have the same low water pressure, so even if installing an on-demand pump will make other units temporarily lose some water pressure, they didn't have enough of it in the first place and will also have installed a pump.

I installed a very small 3'xxx Baht pump I bought at Homeworks; brand name something like Wilo. Hums happily & quietly when in use, works nicely. And yes, I do notice pressure changes, presumably when neighbors turn their water on or off: my pump comes into action very briefly (sensing a change in pressure and concluding I must have opened the tap ).

I'm on the top floor of a monster condo building, and I've been told that the top 3 floors (~150 units altogether) all suffer from low water pressure. Instead of installing proper plumbing & a booster pump on the part of the builder, everyone now has his/her own private little pump... total idiocy!

[trogers]

I'm on the top floor of a monster condo building, and I've been told that the top 3 floors (~150 units altogether)

That's 50 units a floor, or 25 units each side. The length of the building must be at least 80m. Sure it is a condo, and not a dormitory?

[AsiaCheese]

I'm on the top floor of a monster condo building, and I've been told that the top 3 floors (~150 units altogether)

That's 50 units a floor, or 25 units each side. The length of the building must be at least 80m. Sure it is a condo, and not a dormitory?

Sometimes feels like an oversized bunker but it is huge. ~50 units/floor. I did mention "monster"

[canopy]

In many cases more pressure is not actually required, but just more flow. So I wonder why larger size fittings aren't used to solve this problem. For instance, if the fittings and pipes were increased from the normal half inch to two inch, that would increase the flow coming out of the sink and shower over 10 to 1.

[trogers]

In many cases more pressure is not actually required, but just more flow. So I wonder why larger size fittings aren't used to solve this problem. For instance, if the fittings and pipes were increased from the normal half inch to two inch, that would increase the flow coming out of the sink and shower over 10 to 1.

The largest gate valve that I have seen usable by an occupant in a condo is 1-inch, and it is inside the red box of the fire hose reel. Have not seen one installed at the kitchen sink or wash basin. Cannot imagine how a 2-inch valve will look like inside the condo unit...

Care to tell us where we can buy an overhead shower head with a 2-inch water inlet? A 2-inch inlet wall mounted or hand held shower head will still not spray, but only dribble due to poor pressure.

[canopy]

A 2-inch inlet wall mounted or hand held shower head will still not spray, but only dribble due to poor pressure.

This is the one part of your post that is plain wrong. Whatever water comes out of a half inch shower, you will get more than 10 times more with 2 inch. Though sayinjg that I too have not noticed a source for oversized fittings in Thailand designed for consumer applications. Such an approach is cheaper, easier, and quieter than pumps or pressure tanks. Perhaps because they take the 3rd solution in Thailand like in this case which is to mai pen rai it and just have tenants accept the weak water as part of the package.

[trogers]

This is the one part of your post that is plain wrong. Whatever water comes out of a half inch shower, you will get more than 10 times more with 2 inch. Though sayinjg that I too have not noticed a source for oversized fittings in Thailand designed for consumer applications. Such an approach is cheaper, easier, and quieter than pumps or pressure tanks. Perhaps because they take the 3rd solution in Thailand like in this case which is to mai pen rai it and just have tenants accept the weak water as part of the package.

Wonder if you have done the water tower test during high school, where we punch holes down the side of the tower and see how far the water arches out.

Put a 2-inch pipe extension near the top of the tower and punch a 1/2-inch hole will have the same water arch as just punching a 1/2-inch hole at the side of the tower at the same height distance.

The distance of the arch depends on pressure, and not the 2-inch extension pipe.

Edited November 10, 2009 by trogers

[canopy]

The distance of the arch depends on pressure, and not the 2-inch extension pipe.

100% irrelevant. Let me make this crystal clear. Imagine a hypothetical pipe the same diameter as the water tank itself. That would make one heck of a shower, gushing down like a powerful waterfall knocking the person to the ground and flooding them in water in an instant. Hence, pressure is not required for a shower because increasing flow can do the job.

While a shower isn't among them, in some cases you absolutely do need pressure and lots of it like a fire truck to direct water several stories up.

[trogers]

The distance of the arch depends on pressure, and not the 2-inch extension pipe.

100% irrelevant. Let me make this crystal clear. Imagine a hypothetical pipe the same diameter as the water tank itself. That would make one heck of a shower, gushing down like a powerful waterfall knocking the person to the ground and flooding them in water in an instant. Hence, pressure is not required for a shower because increasing flow can do the job.

While a shower isn't among them, in some cases you absolutely do need pressure and lots of it like a fire truck to direct water several stories up.

Increasing the volume flow of water, instead of pressurized 1/2-inch diameter fittings like you have suggested is not practical. Why? We will need water storage tanks covering the whole roof area just to have mini waterfalls for units on the top 2 floors. And the water bills of these units will be horrendous just for washing faces and brushing teeth. Not to mention the structural and waterproofing costs.

At the end, the 2-inch pipes have to be sealed up and tapped off with 1/2 inch fittings, and we are back to the water tower scenerio.

[bkkbill]

Since we live in the real world suggesting a 2" pipe could or would solve the OP problem is foolish and only made sillier by trying to prove the comment with a hypothetical pipe. To increase flow in a pipe you increase pressure.

As stated by AsiaCheese a small pump may solve the problem since you have ruled out a move.

[trogers]

Since we live in the real world suggesting a 2" pipe could or would solve the OP problem is foolish and only made sillier by trying to prove the comment with a hypothetical pipe. To increase flow in a pipe you increase pressure.

As stated by AsiaCheese a small pump may solve the problem since you have ruled out a move.

Cutting up the water inlet pipe and installing a pump can be done if you are staying in a condo unit, and have the blessing of the unit owner.

But in an apartment unit, you will need the blessing of the building owner.

[Sheryl]

In many cases more pressure is not actually required, but just more flow. So I wonder why larger size fittings aren't used to solve this problem. For instance, if the fittings and pipes were increased from the normal half inch to two inch, that would increase the flow coming out of the sink and shower over 10 to 1.

The largest gate valve that I have seen usable by an occupant in a condo is 1-inch, and it is inside the red box of the fire hose reel. Have not seen one installed at the kitchen sink or wash basin. Cannot imagine how a 2-inch valve will look like inside the condo unit...

Care to tell us where we can buy an overhead shower head with a 2-inch water inlet? A 2-inch inlet wall mounted or hand held shower head will still not spray, but only dribble due to poor pressure.

The degree of restruiction created by the shower head itself is important. The more expensive ones, and especially the imports, are often designed with "water save" restrictors, others restrict flow in order to create specific spray effects.

In a low pressure situation, my experience was that a very simple cheap shower head and manually enlarging its inlet near the head a bit got the best results.

Can determine how much of a problem the shower head is by measuring flow rate with it and with it removed from the hose. If there is a big drop, change to a different shower head as described above.

Should also look at the faucet fittings as many of these have a "water save" valve which further restricts flow. Can determine if this is happening by removing the fittings and checking flow rate direct from the wall pipe against flow rate from the faucet. If there is a big drop a change of fittings will help, be sure to specify one without "water save".

[canopy]

Thanks Sheryl. Nice to have someone with real world results back up what I have said which by the way is not my idea at all but rather a recommendation from a renowned expert in water systems design.

[trogers]

The degree of restruiction created by the shower head itself is important. The more expensive ones, and especially the imports, are often designed with "water save" restrictors, others restrict flow in order to create specific spray effects.

In a low pressure situation, my experience was that a very simple cheap shower head and manually enlarging its inlet near the head a bit got the best results.

Can determine how much of a problem the shower head is by measuring flow rate with it and with it removed from the hose. If there is a big drop, change to a different shower head as described above.

Should also look at the faucet fittings as many of these have a "water save" valve which further restricts flow. Can determine if this is happening by removing the fittings and checking flow rate direct from the wall pipe against flow rate from the faucet. If there is a big drop a change of fittings will help, be sure to specify one without "water save".

I doubt an apartment owner who goes all out to save a few tens of thousands of Bahts on a pump and pipes to pressurize the water supply of the top few floors would spend on expensive fittings of over 1k each multiplied by the number of rooms...

[trogers]

If you cannot get the blessing from the building owner on installing a pump, do like the locals. Get a clay urn and a water scoop and live like a Thai.

[deejah]

after some time and issues, landlord put in a new additional water pump for my top floor unit

i assume the on demand type

which as someone pointed out

is noisy and annoying when on

for a few weeks no problem

as it only turned on when i needed water

then she only wanted the top floor pump power supply switch on only when i needed it,

at that time she told me there was too much pressure with both pumps on

i think trying save a few baht

after a bit she said to leave it on

it started making noise a lot of the time

i think because the landlady wanted to use it to supply the whole building

i think she wants to turn off the old one downstairs and use the new noisy one upstairs (again i think to save a few baht)

oddly the old downstairs one isnt a noisy unit

lately the landlady clams that if i turn off the new pump power switch (to stop the noise), it obstructs the water flow to the rest of the building

i dont think this is true

everything was fine for a few weeks when both pumps were on

i only heard the new pump when i needed water

now its on a lot of the time and noisy and annoying

can that really be true the new pump upstaris off obstructs the flow to the downstairs units?

i think she is trying to keep the new pump on and turn off the old one, now

i even tried to test the water supply using only the old pump with the new one off, seemed just like it use to be before the new pump

how can i best sort this out so everyone is happy?

i suggested the new noisy pump should be downstairs and the old quiet one upstairs but this may be a big job to switch them, not sure, i offered to pay

but i keep thinking she wants to shut one of them off, doesnt want them both on

hard to know for sure

i dont want to move but it might sadly be coming to that

too many arguments

things just dont add up with her stories

(my take: this lady is a selfish control freak and often lies and doesnt want to help unless it is to her advantage

new pump = higher rent

also i believe she owns the building but pretends that she rents it)

Edited March 9, 2010 by deejah

[deejah]

my post was a bit long

bottom of the line concern:

there is a new on-demand pump on the top floor roof area

there is an old pump on the ground floor which managed to feed all the rooms before the new pump was installed

if i turn off the power outlet switch on the new pump, can it interfere with the water feed from the old pump to the rooms?

my take is all should be fine as long as the old pump is on

Edited March 9, 2010 by deejah