In Los You "pay" To Kill Yourself

[way2muchcoffee]

Yet, to me there's an awfully big difference between choosing to start using cocaine and choosing to drive on an interstate highway.

Certainly. But how about an abused child who, at 13 'chooses' to use cocaine to numb the pain? That child grows to be a 'half-man' addict. Shall we exercise compassion, or just get a rope and take him to the nearest hanging tree?

Edited November 8, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[neverdie]

But how about an abused child who, at 13 'chooses' to use cocaine to numb the pain? That child grows to be a 'half-man' addict. Shall we exercise compassion, or just get a rope and take him to the nearest hanging tree?

ohhh no, not the old abused child theory! I mean afterall, thats where all our mass murderers, perverts, voilent criminals and other evil beings come from.....child abuse .

[seedy]

I drugged and drank for the better part of my life. Been clean and sober over 15 years now.

People who have posted on this forum - and shown compassion - reflects the percentage of the general population who show the same.

No wonder the world is in the state it is in.

[PhilHarries]

I agree that its a slippery slope but absolute nonesense that anyone would consider including people in the armed forces in the same group as junkies and asssholz.

Yes, of course it is absolute nonsense and I doubt if anybody would ever seriously suggest it but once you start disenfranchising a sector of the population, particularly if for an activity that isn't illegal, you have opened Pandora's box. So we say, okay no free medical treatment for smokers and boozers but aren't they then entitled to turn round and demand a tax or, in the UK, National Insurance rebate? If you ain't going to treat me when I'm sick I'm dam_ned if I'm going to pay into your scheme.

Maybe a bit different in the US where you don't have the same level of state funded healthcare, or don't YET, but the principle is the same.

[neverdie]

Phil,

I dunno how the various health schemes around the world work, but one of the first things that pops up is people saying they're not paying tax for this or tax for that. Having said that, alot of the time you wouldnt know exactly where your tax is going anyway.

I attended private schools when I was a boy (forgetting the fact that there may have been some govt funding for private schools). I have never had kids, so why the hel_l should my tax dollars go towards the education of other peoples children? IT JUST CAN'T WORK THAT WAY, Can it?

How bout the smoker who is injured when a brick is dropped on his toe? Sure he can get is sore toe attended to, its just his advanced lung cancer we have problems with forking out for.

[way2muchcoffee]

But how about an abused child who, at 13 'chooses' to use cocaine to numb the pain? That child grows to be a 'half-man' addict. Shall we exercise compassion, or just get a rope and take him to the nearest hanging tree?

ohhh no, not the old abused child theory! I mean afterall, thats where all our mass murderers, perverts, voilent criminals and other evil beings come from.....child abuse .

Not really a theory mate. Plenty of statistical evidence out there. If you were one of these 'abused' children, or worked in any profession that puts you in close contact with them, you might have a bit more insight and wouldn't be so dismissive.

Edited November 8, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[noahvail]

But how about an abused child who, at 13 'chooses' to use cocaine to numb the pain? That child grows to be a 'half-man' addict. Shall we exercise compassion, or just get a rope and take him to the nearest hanging tree?

ohhh no, not the old abused child theory! I mean afterall, thats where all our mass murderers, perverts, voilent criminals and other evil beings come from.....child abuse .

Gotta love the sarcasm and your meaning is correct. Way back in the States, I was a counsellor in a government-funded clinic. Dealt with all of the above except ('mass') murderers. There was an interesting study done around that time. Seems that 80% of that population claimed child abuse. But when put on lie detectors, turns out only 20% had been abused. (The numbers were around 80/20, can't remember the specifics...but it was close enough to the 80/20 rule.)

Compassion vs economic reality. I suppose we have to draw a line somewhere...but where? In the US, it seems to be the insurance companies and government regulations have made that decision for us. I reckon that whatever line is drawn, no matter who draws it, there will be critics on both sides of that line.

[IanForbes]

I try to do unto others BEFORE they have a chance to do unto me.

It is better to help people help themselves than give handouts. There will always be people who have personal problems. They need help as much as people who only have the occasional lapse of judgement. There IS enough money available for everyone if those at the top don't get too greedy. I just wish the governments would get out of people's private lives. It's easy enough to set a few restrictions on risky behaviour. Have a few basic standards and let the people pay for the excess.

[thaimite]

I try to do unto others BEFORE they have a chance to do unto me.

It is better to help people help themselves than give handouts. There will always be people who have personal problems. They need help as much as people who only have the occasional lapse of judgement. There IS enough money available for everyone if those at the top don't get too greedy. I just wish the governments would get out of people's private lives. It's easy enough to set a few restrictions on risky behaviour. Have a few basic standards and let the people pay for the excess.

Agreed

[cognos]

I drugged and drank for the better part of my life. Been clean and sober over 15 years now.

People who have posted on this forum - and shown compassion - reflects the percentage of the general population who show the same.

No wonder the world is in the state it is in.

we need compassion... AND EDUCATION..ignorance is bliss

[neverdie]

But how about an abused child who, at 13 'chooses' to use cocaine to numb the pain? That child grows to be a 'half-man' addict. Shall we exercise compassion, or just get a rope and take him to the nearest hanging tree?

ohhh no, not the old abused child theory! I mean afterall, thats where all our mass murderers, perverts, voilent criminals and other evil beings come from.....child abuse .

Gotta love the sarcasm and your meaning is correct. Way back in the States, I was a counsellor in a government-funded clinic. Dealt with all of the above except ('mass') murderers. There was an interesting study done around that time. Seems that 80% of that population claimed child abuse. But when put on lie detectors, turns out only 20% had been abused. (The numbers were around 80/20, can't remember the specifics...but it was close enough to the 80/20 rule.)

Compassion vs economic reality. I suppose we have to draw a line somewhere...but where? In the US, it seems to be the insurance companies and government regulations have made that decision for us. I reckon that whatever line is drawn, no matter who draws it, there will be critics on both sides of that line.

Well said B.

Its also funny that nobody ever seems to mention all those child abuse victims that grow into loving responsible members of the community. Strange that.

[way2muchcoffee]

Its also funny that nobody ever seems to mention all those child abuse victims that grow into loving responsible members of the community. Strange that.

I see. So by your logic, cigarette smoking does not cause cancer because millions of people who smoke cigarettes never get it. Drunk driving isn't dangerous. Obesity doesn't lead to heart problems. The list goes on. An interesting argument.

Edited November 8, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[neverdie]

^

Im a little bizzare at times, but I would never go that line. Please let me pick and chose which way I would like to jump at any given moment....THANKYOU!

Edited November 8, 2009 by neverdie

[way2muchcoffee]

^

Im a little bizzare at times, but I would never go that line. Please let me pick and chose which way I would like to jump at any given moment....THANKYOU!

LOL. Unexpected response made me spit my coffee. Anyway, I reckon we've veered off topic for long enough....

Edited November 8, 2009 by way2muchcoffee

[neverdie]

^Som nom na!

[Huey]

I love how some idiots extend every idea they don't agree with into absurdity. Like here I am talking about dropping health car for drug users who AFTER they have been given treatment, rehab, ect. Still choose to go back too it.

And I got people talking about making High Ways, no health care zones, and equating Soldiers and Athletes to these dregs.

Stop making excuses for these people, and let them be accountable for their actions. And this is coming from someone who grew up for most of his young adult life in a drug infested ghetto. See that shit first hand and see how much sympathy you have for them. Or better yet what they do to a neighboorhood. Personally. I wish we had drug laws like Saudi Arabia for hard core drugs, like Meth, coke, opiates and such.

There was a poster her who said they believed in dangling a "Carrot" in front of people to coerce them into quitting their drug habit. He then proceeded to give the example of his wife threatening to leave. Dude that's not a carrot danging in front of you. Thats a GUN IN YOUR FACE! Thats like saying Quit or Else!

And it worked! Proof positive that hard core laws will seriously reduce the drug problem.

[neverdie]

Thats a GUN IN YOUR FACE! Thats like saying Quit or Else!

And it worked! Proof positive that hard core laws will seriously reduce the drug problem.

Thats the only part of my old job I missed, seeing the look on someones face when they were looking down the barrel of my pistola.... Priceless.

Edited November 8, 2009 by neverdie

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

What an ignorance festival. Do some research on addiction before polluting the cyberspace with such garbage. Addicts need help of course because they hurt other people in society, model self destrustive coping habits and create yet more addicts.

Thailand has record high levels(top 5-10 per capita) of alcohol abuse for any country. Countries around the world should follow the examples of countries that deal with addiction by reducing their numbers.

Following Thailand on substance abuse issues is pure retardation. What is next following Russia on how to treat alcohol abuse?

[473geo]

I won't get into the arguments about addiction being a disease as my views have been aired on this forum many times and i also treat drug users and alcoholics here in the LOS for a living.

But as the op said the injuries sustained are self inflicted. If that is the criteria to determine whether someone should pay, ask your selves this.

If a rugby player breaks a leg should he also pay??

Just like the drug user he:

Started off with one game

He knew it was dangerous

He knew he could get hurt playing rugby

He continued playing in the full knowledge of the risk

He has probably been injured before but went back to it nonetheless

Apart from the social and legal elements what is different?

change rugby to hockey and that me..point taken

Having being involved in lower,lower, league football I can assure you that additional sports injury insurance was a condition of running a team in those leagues I was involved with, so sports injuries already have a built in solution. I doubt the drug ghettos have such a requirenent for entry!!!

[Harcourt]

What an ignorance festival. Do some research on addiction before polluting the cyberspace with such garbage. Addicts need help of course because they hurt other people in society, model self destrustive coping habits and create yet more addicts.

Thailand has record high levels(top 5-10 per capita) of alcohol abuse for any country. Countries around the world should follow the examples of countries that deal with addiction by reducing their numbers.

Following Thailand on substance abuse issues is pure retardation. What is next following Russia on how to treat alcohol abuse?

Most of what you say sounds right to me, but to be fair, the OP is talking about one aspect, from a certain perspective.

Making the suggestion that addicts may be able to help themselves if given enough motivation (carrot or stick, in this case the stick of big bills), is not an ignorant question untill all the answers and options have been considered.

There's also the aspect of fairness to the taxpayers....again on the assumption that addicts can help themselves.

Sounds like a reasonable topic to discuss.....even if YOU already know the answer. What's your suggestion to counter the OP and all the "ignorance festees"?

Edited November 8, 2009 by Harcourt

[PhilHarries]

Of course there's the dead end scenario. Your addict has been ignoring all the medical advice and now he's puking, shitting, pissing blood so he goes to his clinic. There he is told by his friendly physician "sorry son, your life credits have just run out, here's the name of the local pauper's funeral parlour I suggest yuo contact them". Now your addict is way off his timescale regarding a fix and is a whole lot psychotic so pulls a gun and blows away his trusted physician. Are you hard line "burn-the-b@st@ds-in-hel_l" brigade people going to tell his widow that it was for the best?

If only life was as simple as a line in the sand.

If only it was your brother facing the final curtain.

[473geo]

In some countries the heaviest tax level (excluding salaries,company tax and the like) is levied on Cigarrettes, alchohol, and transport fuel.

All monies paid to the governments.......so if the governments return these taxes into the system to assist the users of these products, if their health declines due to usage.....surely fair??

Now if they would just legalise and define a way of obtaining revenue from recreational drugs.......where is the issue??

[F1fanatic]

I won't get into the arguments about addiction being a disease as my views have been aired on this forum many times and i also treat drug users and alcoholics here in the LOS for a living.

But as the op said the injuries sustained are self inflicted. If that is the criteria to determine whether someone should pay, ask your selves this.

If a rugby player breaks a leg should he also pay??

Just like the drug user he:

Started off with one game

He knew it was dangerous

He knew he could get hurt playing rugby

He continued playing in the full knowledge of the risk

He has probably been injured before but went back to it nonetheless

Apart from the social and legal elements what is different?

change rugby to hockey and that me..point taken

Having being involved in lower,lower, league football I can assure you that additional sports injury insurance was a condition of running a team in those leagues I was involved with, so sports injuries already have a built in solution. I doubt the drug ghettos have such a requirenent for entry!!!

As a scuba diver I can assure you that I don't have to take out any insurance to cover any injuries I may sustain. Amateur sports enthusiasts can do whatever they like without worrying about insurance to cover any injuries they receive.

As for those who believe that addicted drug users are the scum of the earth and should be left to die - you have obviously been lucky enough to never care about anyone who became addicted to drugs.

I haven't been so lucky. Someone I cared about who had a truly terrible childhood and took to drugs and alcohol in an attempt to forget about it, became addicted. It was impossible to talk to him about it, as he genuinely thought he was happier that way! It took MANY years (and a suicide attempt during that time), before he eventually came to realise (when he was around 40!) that he was not happier that way and needed to do something about it.

Of course they put him on methadone (which for those who know nothing about addiction is EVEN WORSE than heroin!). Its taken a few years, but he's slowly cutting down on the methadone and for the first time in his life beginning to feel happy and to see that perhaps he could have a life.

Addiction is down to personality and life experience. Those who are so smug as to feel those unfortunate people should be denied care and just vilified, are the people who pass on the other side of the road when they see something awful happening.

[473geo]

And the smug people who ignore available medical insurance, to keep money in their own pockets - are depreciating the goverment medical funds which could be allocated to care for those who made a poor decision in life, or were not aware of the possible outcome!!

So which side are you driving on F1??

Edit - spelling

Edited November 8, 2009 by 473geo

[F1fanatic]

And the smug people who ignore available medical insurance, to keep money in their own pockets - are depreciating the goverment medical funds which could be allocated to care for those who made a poor decision in life, or were not aware of the possible outcome!!

So which side are you driving on F1??

Edit - spelling

Sorry, don't understand the point you are making. Personally I took out DAN insurance cos I didn't want to be stuck in a foreign country arguing about DCS!

[473geo]

And the smug people who ignore available medical insurance, to keep money in their own pockets - are depreciating the goverment medical funds which could be allocated to care for those who made a poor decision in life, or were not aware of the possible outcome!!

So which side are you driving on F1??

Edit - spelling

Sorry, don't understand the point you are making. Personally I took out DAN insurance cos I didn't want to be stuck in a foreign country arguing about DCS!

So insurance is not compulsory in sport and you cite an example.....a negative and futile response as this fact is rather well known...the positive answer surely is that it should be compulsory (maybe you can clean up your sport if lack of insurance cover is so widespread).....more pertinent perhaps, insurance companies should not be allowed to offer 'cash' incentives if the treatment can be obtained in a state hospital for free!!.......there are many angles on payment for medical care, and drugs may be high profile and evocative, but the financial realities require addressing.......not the emotional ones.......read my post on the government taxes above.......the fact that you do have insurance is commendable......now if all did just that........get my point?

[F1fanatic]

And the smug people who ignore available medical insurance, to keep money in their own pockets - are depreciating the goverment medical funds which could be allocated to care for those who made a poor decision in life, or were not aware of the possible outcome!!

So which side are you driving on F1??

Edit - spelling

Sorry, don't understand the point you are making. Personally I took out DAN insurance cos I didn't want to be stuck in a foreign country arguing about DCS!

So insurance is not compulsory in sport and you cite an example.....a negative and futile response as this fact is rather well known...the positive answer surely is that it should be compulsory (maybe you can clean up your sport if lack of insurance cover is so widespread).....more pertinent perhaps, insurance companies should not be allowed to offer 'cash' incentives if the treatment can be obtained in a state hospital for free!!.......there are many angles on payment for medical care, and drugs may be high profile and evocative, but the financial realities require addressing.......not the emotional ones.......read my post on the government taxes above.......the fact that you do have insurance is commendable......now if all did just that........get my point?

I still don't get your point. Are you saying that anyone who participates in any sport should have insurance? Children at school should have insurance for their P.E. lessons? Really don't get your point at all.

[473geo]

I expected that response from someone who again is trying to find fault rather than be constructive........children should of course be encouraged to participate in sport, this should actually strengthen a body thus hopefully less healthcare maintenance later!!, Children, as you are no doubt aware are much more supple boned than their older couterparts and in my opinion, (though I have not looked up data) suffer more injuries in the playground than on the sports field. But as you suggest a school sports policycover would be a suggestion - however as I would expect this to be goverment funded then why not give free healthcare while at school as is already in place in most countries - exceptions being when playing sports outside school juristiction......then yes sports insurance......still too complicated for you to grasp...????

Edit spelling....don't wish to create any further confusion... .

Edited November 8, 2009 by 473geo

[cognos]

What an ignorance festival. Do some research on addiction before polluting the cyberspace with such garbage. Addicts need help of course because they hurt other people in society, model self destrustive coping habits and create yet more addicts.

Thailand has record high levels(top 5-10 per capita) of alcohol abuse for any country. Countries around the world should follow the examples of countries that deal with addiction by reducing their numbers.

Following Thailand on substance abuse issues is pure retardation. What is next following Russia on how to treat alcohol abuse?

Please enlighten me on an example of a "model country".. I'm always up to becoming less ignorant

[cognos]

Of course there's the dead end scenario. Your addict has been ignoring all the medical advice and now he's puking, shitting, pissing blood so he goes to his clinic. There he is told by his friendly physician "sorry son, your life credits have just run out, here's the name of the local pauper's funeral parlour I suggest yuo contact them". Now your addict is way off his timescale regarding a fix and is a whole lot psychotic so pulls a gun and blows away his trusted physician. Are you hard line "burn-the-b@st@ds-in-hel_l" brigade people going to tell his widow that it was for the best?

If only life was as simple as a line in the sand.

If only it was your brother facing the final curtain.

it was..he spent 600,000 CDN on heroin in 14 months..and begged me for $10.. I refused.. but told him I would help him if he wanted help