Portability Of Gold

[fridgemagnet]

Unless you are very rich, you can carry your savings.

What I would like advice on is how legal it is to move gold from one country to the next.

Please consider a range of countries, as the world situation for fixed income people is not at all stable.

[gregb]

Almost all countries allow 99.5% or better gold bullion to be moved without tax. You may be asked to declare it when you enter or leave a country, but few places actually have tariffs on it.

This stems from agreements passed decades ago when gold was money and it was common to transfer gold between banks.

Other metals, such as silver, or gold that isn't nearly pure bullion, do not necessarily enjoy this same protection.

[PattayaParent]

It's bloody heavy so not really portable.

[flying]

It's bloody heavy so not really portable.

I dont know about that...How strong/rich are you?

These days a pound/16 ounces of gold = $17,920.00

A pound of $100 dollar bills = $45,400.00

Who knows what a pound of gold will equal next year

[IanForbes]

I had to put and extra leaf spring in my pickup truck to carry mine away from the vault. They said it was a half ton truck, but I could only load 450 pounds of gold into it before the frame was down on the axel.

[jobsworth]

Almost all countries allow 99.5% or better gold bullion to be moved without tax. You may be asked to declare it when you enter or leave a country, but few places actually have tariffs on it.

This stems from agreements passed decades ago when gold was money and it was common to transfer gold between banks.

Other metals, such as silver, or gold that isn't nearly pure bullion, do not necessarily enjoy this same protection.

This is really interesting.

I tried asking this question to a British Customs Officer

in the departure lounge at Heathrow Airport where tourists can reclaim VAT.

All I got was a cheeky answer

"Hatton Garden"

"You going to wear one of those little gold bars around your neck are you"

"We'd need to look at it"

And his colleagues in the background were all smirking.

Anyway it appears that there is free movement of gold bullion between countries.

Another possibility was storage in Perth, where the gold was purchased.

Leaving it in my hotel room was a bad idea but I got away with it.

Apparently some of the banks will rent out safe deposits.

[tropo]

Anyway it appears that there is free movement of gold bullion between countries.

Of course there isn't "free movement of gold bullion between countries". If there were, crooks would be carrying suitcases of it between countries. Gold bullion is considered the same as cash in all countries as it has a spot price that can be easily calculated. Over a certain amount ($10,000 worth in Australia) they'll want to know how you got your hands on it and why you are carrying it around.

It's a bit trickier to buy in many Western countries because you can't just walk in and buy it from a gold dealer without some accountability. It is treated as cash, which is basically a dirty commodity these days.

[somluck]

If you are moving alot of it, perhaps you can watch the James Bond movie GOLDFINGER for some inspiration

[dumbnewbie]

I tried asking this question to a British Customs Officer

in the departure lounge at Heathrow Airport where tourists can reclaim VAT.

All I got was a cheeky answer

"Hatton Garden"

"You going to wear one of those little gold bars around your neck are you"

"We'd need to look at it"

And his colleagues in the background were all smirking.

Wait - what the hel_l does that mean? What is "Hatton Garden"? And why were they smirking? Nothing about that answer gives me much comfort.

The way I interpret it is something like this: "we love idiots who bring gold bullion or cash to us - we can just take it and there wouldn't be a dam_n thing you could do about it - in fact, we could just deny all knowledge of the incident". Am I wrong?

I concur with the other poster who said that gold and cash are considered "dirty" and basically evidence that you're a criminal and/or tax-dodger. The US requires disclosure of any cash (or "cash-equivalent", I believe, which probably includes gold) of USD 10,000 or more when entering the US. I believe they can confiscate it if you fail to disclose it and they discover it. I don't know what happens if you do disclose it - and I wouldn't want to find out. Anyone know? Do they grill you about how you got it and why you're travelling with large amounts of cash? Do they confiscate it? I've heard that there are some pretty scary laws in the US now which basically let police assume that any large amount of cash found on you (at lets say a traffic stop) to be evidence of criminal activity and they can just confiscate it on the spot without ever going to court or anything. Scary, scary, scary. I haven't really looked into this, so maybe there are some critical details I'm missing, but I don't like the sound of it - it doesn't sound like freedom to me.

[OriginalPoster]

The US requires disclosure of any cash (or "cash-equivalent", I believe, which probably includes gold) of USD 10,000 or more when entering the US. I believe they can confiscate it if you fail to disclose it and they discover it. I don't know what happens if you do disclose it - and I wouldn't want to find out. Anyone know? Do they grill you about how you got it and why you're travelling with large amounts of cash? Do they confiscate it?

No, they don't confiscate it if you declare it. They might ask you questions about it, but it's completely legal to bring in any amount of cash as long as you declare it.

There was another thread in the finance section recently about how to declare gold when you come into the US. Definitely you have to declare it, but whether or not it should be declared as being "cash equivalent" or as merchandise appears to be dependent upon what form the gold is in.

I've heard that there are some pretty scary laws in the US now which basically let police assume that any large amount of cash found on you (at lets say a traffic stop) to be evidence of criminal activity and they can just confiscate it on the spot without ever going to court or anything. Scary, scary, scary. I haven't really looked into this, so maybe there are some critical details I'm missing, but I don't like the sound of it - it doesn't sound like freedom to me.

That's pure fabrication.

Edited December 6, 2009 by OriginalPoster

[ratcatcher]

"Hatton Garden" Centre of the London Jewellery & Diamond Trade for hundreds of years.

Not too many plants in this garden

[monty]

These days a pound/16 ounces of gold = $17,920.00

A pound of $100 dollar bills = $45,400.00

Better yet, carry 500 Euro notes.

500 euro equals roughly 740 US$, so thats 7.4 times more then a 100$ note.

Assuming a 500 Euro note weighs the same as a 100$ note, 1 pound of 500 Euro notes would be almost 336,000 US$.

Which again would take over 17 pounds of gold

Naah, I wouldn't call gold really portable!

1 stack of 500 Euro notes (50,000 Euro, 72,000$) you easily put in the pocket of your pants, not sure how comfortable it would be to walk around with 4 pounds of gold bars in your pocket

[dumbnewbie]

Aren't there also 1,000 Euro notes?

Although $100 bills are currently the largest US denomination, as late as the 1920s (and maybe later) there were also $500, $1,000, $5,000, and even $10,000 bills in general circulation. Ironically, the value of money was much greater in those days, so that a $10,000 bill in 1929 would be worth $123,475 in 2009 dollars. A millionaire in 1929 would be worth more than 12 million today, assuming his money merely kept up with inflation all these years.

And today, most retail cashiers in the US will respond with something like shock or panic if you try to pay for your purchase with a $100 bill. Most will then state that they can't accept anything bigger than a $20 bill.

What's wrong with this picture?

Edited December 7, 2009 by dumbnewbie

[Maizefarmer]

.... better still: Swiss Franc 1000 note.

[OriginalPoster]

Aren't there also 1,000 Euro notes?

Although $100 bills are currently the largest US denomination, as late as the 1920s (and maybe later) there were also $500, $1,000, $5,000, and even $10,000 bills in general circulation. Ironically, the value of money was much greater in those days, so that a $10,000 bill in 1929 would be worth $123,475 in 2009 dollars. A millionaire in 1929 would be worth more than 12 million today, assuming his money merely kept up with inflation all these years.

And today, most retail cashiers in the US will respond with something like shock or panic if you try to pay for your purchase with a $100 bill. Most will then state that they can't accept anything bigger than a $20 bill.

What's wrong with this picture?

In the US, it's become so customary for people to use credit cards that few people find the relatively small denominations of the paper money to be an inconvenience. Probably only a small percentage of $100+ dollar transactions are conducted in cash. People just don't carry very much cash these days, let alone very many $50 and $100 bills. In fact, the majority of US$100 bills are in circulation outside the US.

The US started removing notes with face value of greater than $100 from circulation about 40 years ago but hadn't printed any new ones since 1945. The rationale for removing them from circulation was that large notes were of use to few people other than those that wanted to illicitly move around money (organized crime, big-time drug dealers, etc.). Making the currency "less portable" was in effect the goal.

[MarkBKK]

I've heard that there are some pretty scary laws in the US now which basically let police assume that any large amount of cash found on you (at lets say a traffic stop) to be evidence of criminal activity and they can just confiscate it on the spot without ever going to court or anything. Scary, scary, scary. I haven't really looked into this, so maybe there are some critical details I'm missing, but I don't like the sound of it - it doesn't sound like freedom to me.

That's pure fabrication.

Er, no it isn't. Even the most cursory search will turn up many, many examples of this being just the case in several states. It doesn't even have to be a large sum of cash. Here's one.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...0,6051682.story

TENAHA, Texas— You can drive into this dusty fleck of a town near the Texas-Louisiana border if you're African-American, but you might not be able to drive out of it—at least not with your car, your cash, your jewelry or other valuables. That's because the police here allegedly have found a way to strip motorists, many of them black, of their property without ever charging them with a crime.

[simcity]

If you thinking about Thai gold (the one you find in gold shop) please remember it has a different gold contain, it is very hard to sell in paw shop or other in Australia and many other countries.

[Naam]

It's bloody heavy so not really portable.

I dont know about that...How strong/rich are you?

These days a pound/16 ounces of gold = $17,920.00

A pound of $100 dollar bills = $45,400.00

Who knows what a pound of gold will equal next year

a pound of €500 bills = $336,000.-

[dumbnewbie]

If you thinking about Thai gold (the one you find in gold shop) please remember it has a different gold contain, it is very hard to sell in paw shop or other in Australia and many other countries.

That's good to know - thanks for sharing that info!

[flying]

It's bloody heavy so not really portable.

I dont know about that...How strong/rich are you?

These days a pound/16 ounces of gold = $17,920.00

A pound of $100 dollar bills = $45,400.00

Who knows what a pound of gold will equal next year

a pound of €500 bills = $336,000.-

Ok we have a winner Euro

[OriginalPoster]

I've heard that there are some pretty scary laws in the US now which basically let police assume that any large amount of cash found on you (at lets say a traffic stop) to be evidence of criminal activity and they can just confiscate it on the spot without ever going to court or anything. Scary, scary, scary. I haven't really looked into this, so maybe there are some critical details I'm missing, but I don't like the sound of it - it doesn't sound like freedom to me.

That's pure fabrication.

Er, no it isn't. Even the most cursory search will turn up many, many examples of this being just the case in several states. It doesn't even have to be a large sum of cash. Here's one.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationw...0,6051682.story

TENAHA, Texas— You can drive into this dusty fleck of a town near the Texas-Louisiana border if you're African-American, but you might not be able to drive out of it—at least not with your car, your cash, your jewelry or other valuables. That's because the police here allegedly have found a way to strip motorists, many of them black, of their property without ever charging them with a crime.

The claim was the the existence of the cash could be assumed to be evidence of illegal activity and that the police could legally confiscate the cash on that basis without ever going to court. The fact is that the police can't legally take anything without making an arrest and that they would need evidence other than just the cash in order to make an arrest. Any seized money would also need to be returned if the charges are subsequently dropped or if a court acquits the defendant.

The cases that you're pointing to involve cash that was found on a person at the time that they were being arrested for some other reason. It sounds like it was dirty cops to boot, if we take the journalist's claims at face value. If cops are going to trump up charges or extort money from people, that's another problem entirely.

Edited December 7, 2009 by OriginalPoster