Fines For Traffic Offences 'too Weak'

[Bobr]

"Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on."

Thank you! I came here to get away from petty governmental interference in my life, among other things. Be careful what you wish for, this place could become as crappy as the countries we left to come here.

[Brewsta]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

I've only been to Thailand twice so far both for 2 weeks and this year. I must admit to quite liking the relaxed attitude regarding driving but then I do try to drive safely if I can and I would never get drunk and drive. However I believe that the death rate is around 14,000 a year whilst in the UK with a similar population it was well under 3000 last year http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8118341.stm over 11,000 lives is a high cost and if you are directly involved either personaly or a friend or relative then any death or injury matters. I've been in a car accident caused by someone else in the UK in 1994 and the effect on my back is still with me. I got compensation but it still had a huge effect on any advancement in my job, or it would have done if I hadn't had to give up to look after my sick wife.

I soppose it depends how much freedom you are prepared to lose to save a life. Maybe education would help so people would drive more safely and wouln't have to put up with more regulation. Maybe if Thais were made aware of the amount of regulation and lack of freedom they risk having if they don't improve their driving that might be more incentive. I doubt unfortunately.

dear kimamey,

I have only been here in LOS for 10 years (this time round) and your doubts, IMHO, are borne out by un-necessary tragic deaths - approx 41 on m/cyc alone each day,I am reliably (under?)informed...

regardz,

Brewsta

[mca]

"Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on."

Thank you! I came here to get away from petty governmental interference in my life, among other things. Be careful what you wish for, this place could become as crappy as the countries we left to come here.

I'm utterly perplexed by some poster's connections between what they consider to be "personal freedom" and "petty government interference" and basic road safety law enforcement. I really am utterly perplexed.

[phetaroi]

Good points..

And the comment "I suppose it depends how much freedom you are prepared to lose to save a life." is spot on. everyone likesfreedom but that can not apply whn lives are at stake.

I agree with you. I think that with many things here, many of us would not like to see things taken as far as in the West or Singapore, but there has to be a happier middle ground with things like improved traffic law enforcement and cleaning up rubbish (I'm not talking about litter).

[Brewsta]

"Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on."

Thank you! I came here to get away from petty governmental interference in my life, among other things. Be careful what you wish for, this place could become as crappy as the countries we left to come here.

I'm utterly perplexed by some poster's connections between what they consider to be "personal freedom" and "petty government interference" and basic road safety law enforcement. I really am utterly perplexed.

No kidding (

[sinbin]

this place could become as crappy as the countries we left to come here.

Still looking at Thailand through 'rose coloured spectacles' hey ? Give it a few more years and the glasses will be off.

[prakhonchai nick]

As someone else suggested, I think it is is a good idea to have different levels of fines based on the class of vehicle driven. I don't mean the make/model, but along the lines of 2-wheel, 3, wheel, 4-wheel private, 4-wheel commercial, and large commercial truck or bus.

Totally disagree!

It is not the vehicle that breaks the law, but the driver.

[mca]

What about Herbie then?

[Bearnagh]

"Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on."

Thank you! I came here to get away from petty governmental interference in my life, among other things. Be careful what you wish for, this place could become as crappy as the countries we left to come here.

Are you really telling us that you believe attempts to reduce needless & avoidable fatalities on the roads is just "petty Governmental interference" ??

By the same token, would you deem a surgeon's attempts to save a life after a road accident to be "petty medical interference"?

If prevention is a bad thing, then why bother with any cure?

Think about it.

[ScubaBuddha]

As someone else suggested, I think it is is a good idea to have different levels of fines based on the class of vehicle driven. I don't mean the make/model, but along the lines of 2-wheel, 3, wheel, 4-wheel private, 4-wheel commercial, and large commercial truck or bus.

Totally disagree!

It is not the vehicle that breaks the law, but the driver.

Ummm..you realize we're not fining the vehicle right? Were fining the driver.

The reason the government is giving for fines being so low is that it is a hardship on sustenance wage earners, but if you have a car, presumably you can afford greater fines, and as I already mentioned, cars are capable of greater carnage. Fines should be commensurate with the amount of danger you present to the public, so it's a double win. I think the motorbike rider I saw run over by and trapped under the wheels of a bus on the beach road last night would agree.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Scubabuddha

[featography]

The laws are there -they just need to be enforced.

Start at the schools -half of the motorcycles parked there are driven in by underage kids, permitted to drive by their parents, allowed to park by the teachers, and assisted entry by the morning traffic police. PUT A STOP TO IT

Realistic fines for other offences such as driving against traffic flow, no helmet or more than 1 passenger. Never mind the inability to pay by the poor. If you don't break the law you don't pay. If you do, pay or the bike is confiscated until you do!

Absolutely. I witness this daily; school kids operating motorbikes as if they are invincible. My neighbor's teen son has dumped the family bike 3 times so far, and survived, so far. Another kid, app. 13, races up and down the street, comes up to the T intersection, leans bike over for his left turn, not so much as tap on the brake, with parked cars at curb, visibility nil for oncoming vehicles. One more day, his luck still on his side. Some day though, it will run out. The "it only happens to the other kid" mentality matches that of the young American teens with cars.

[mca]

My neighbour's son is the same. He can't ride for shit. He's underage too. Once he came round the corner of my soi on my side of the road and nearly creamed into my car. I went round the house later and politely but strongly pointed out my displeasure. All embarrassed apologies and waiing from the parents. I don't want a frigging wai or apology. I want a large number of Thai parents of teens to stop being so frigging ignorant. It is depressing sometimes. Yet come the day of the funeral when some 11 year old kid's been wiped by an 18 wheeler the mother's there wailing and howling over the coffin. What can I say?

Not a single one of my LOS nephews or nieces has been allowed to own a motorcycle. It'll be the same with my daughter. And I speak as one who hypocritically used to ride a 900 Fireblade back home. "Back home" being the operative words.

Back to my neighbour. Last week his folks bought him a new motorcycle. Give me strength.

[zzaa09]

Can't deny there is a problem with road safty in Thailand. calling for higer punishemtn is not going to work. If they want to decrease the number of casualties nothing will work better than strictly enforcing the rules. The best deterrent against crimes is and will always be a high risk of getting caught.

I don't buy that. The authoritarian state could easily encase a enforcement consciousness, and you'd still have such percentages of 'incidents'. Detering crime? Are traffic/vehicular 'offences' really criminal.....only if you've been manipulated to consider them as such.

[Bearnagh]

Saw an interesting example of just how sloppy it gets today...

Honda Wave with 4 people on it. Mum, dad & two very small infants. The father, who was the pilot, was typing a text message into his mobile. I followed the bike for about 2Km, for all of which the LH indicator was flashing. The ever-changing road positioning of the bike was such that I didn't try to pass. That didn't stop the guy in the Toyota Hilux (with all the optional goofy extras & tinsel you could ever wish for) behind me, who pulled right out onto the RHS of the road, causing a right old scattering match in the oncoming traffic. I should add here that there was no real progress to be made by such a maneouvre, as the traffic up ahead was thick and slowing for a red light. The Hilux had only just passed the bike when the bike swung sharply across the road, turning right into a Soi. (LHS indicator still going...). The rider didn't look behind him (the 'life-saver' as we used to call it in the BMF). There were no mirrors on the bike. Had anything else been about to pass that bike, there'd have been two dead children on the tarmac. I'm sure my heart stopped when I saw this.

Today their luck saw them through but, as a previous poster has pointed out, their day will surely come. Sad thing is... someone's luck ran out somewhere today. Someone else's will run out somewhere tomorrow. Pity it all has to rest on luck. Pity the innocents involved in all of this.

I fail to see how any of this "Russian roulette" on the roads constitutes any form of "Freedom" that others have claimed earlier in this thread.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Bearnagh

[neverdie]

Can't deny there is a problem with road safty in Thailand. calling for higer punishemtn is not going to work. If they want to decrease the number of casualties nothing will work better than strictly enforcing the rules. The best deterrent against crimes is and will always be a high risk of getting caught.

I don't buy that. The authoritarian state could easily encase a enforcement consciousness, and you'd still have such percentages of 'incidents'. Detering crime? Are traffic/vehicular 'offences' really criminal.....only if you've been manipulated to consider them as such.

A post of CLAPTRAP, especially the last portion of the post, having said that I think you will find mario was using the term 'crime' to be a broad net to cast over most offences irregardless of which act they fall under.

[mca]

Saw an interesting example of just how sloppy it gets today...

Honda Wave with 4 people on it. Mum, dad & two very small infants. The father, who was the pilot, was typing a text message into his mobile. I followed the bike for about 2Km, for all of which the LH indicator was flashing. The ever-changing road positioning of the bike was such that I didn't try to pass. That didn't stop the guy in the Toyota Hilux (with all the optional goofy extras & tinsel you could ever wish for) behind me, who pulled right out onto the RHS of the road, causing a right old scattering match in the oncoming traffic. I should add here that there was no real progress to be made by such a maneouvre, as the traffic up ahead was thick and slowing for a red light. The Hilux had only just passed the bike when the bike swung sharply across the road, turning right into a Soi. (LHS indicator still going...). The rider didn't look behind him (the 'life-saver' as we used to call it in the BMF). There were no mirrors on the bike. Had anything else been about to pass that bike, there'd have been two dead children on the tarmac. I'm sure my heart stopped when I saw this.

It does make you wonder doesn't it. Even the dogs in my soi have the survival instinct get out of the way when my car comes.

I was on main road approaching a crossroads when this guy on a Wave just blasted through the junction at top speed left to right as if it wasn't there. Not a glance, not a dab on the brake, not a slight easing up of the throttle. Nothing. Flat out. With a child on the back. I mean we've all driven a car and thought "Shit, didn't see him" when out attention wanders but it's a whole different ballgame here.

You wouldn't mind so much if, as in my situation, the guy had glanced my way and thought "fuc_k it I'm going for it" but that didn't happen.

15 years here. Still mind boggling.

I reckon confiscate the vehicles in real dodgy incidents and destroy them. There's a nice hard lesson for dumb fuc_ks. Dumb fuc_ks who could quite easily maim or kill me or my family without so much as a thought. I'm a true believer in driving a vehicle is a privilege not a right.

Consequence of actions is an impossible concept for quite a few local folks here

[mca]

sorry double bloody post

Edited November 15, 2009 by mca

[mca]

sorry triple post. my internet all over the place tonight. got to stop hitting that post reply button when it drops out again

Edited November 15, 2009 by mca

[stkyricesf]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

Hear Hear, I agree.... 'Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country '

[neverdie]

sorry triple post. my internet all over the place tonight. got to stop hitting that post reply button when it drops out again

[zzaa09]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

Hear Hear, I agree.... 'Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country '

Seconded! If one wishes to engage into Western lifestyles and extensions, than it would seem logical to live in a Western country.

[salty]

Thailand has a western lifestyle; The Wild West.

[Bearnagh]

I reckon confiscate the vehicles in real dodgy incidents and destroy them. There's a nice hard lesson for dumb fuc_ks. Dumb fuc_ks who could quite easily maim or kill me or my family without so much as a thought. I'm a true believer in driving a vehicle is a privilege not a right.

Consequence of actions is an impossible concept for quite a few local folks here

I agree totally.

[Bearnagh]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

Hear Hear, I agree.... 'Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country '

Seconded! If one wishes to engage into Western lifestyles and extensions, than it would seem logical to live in a Western country.

So you approve of mindless carnage then?

[ScubaBuddha]

the Toyota Hilux (with all the optional goofy extras & tinsel you could ever wish for) behind me, who pulled right out onto the RHS of the road, causing a right old scattering match in the oncoming traffic. I should add here that there was no real progress to be made by such a maneouvre, as the traffic up ahead was thick and slowing for a red light.

This maneuver is as insane as it is common on the roads here. Whenever I see them doing this...taking huge risk for little or no gain (or better yet a loss if I am able to discreetly imped their progress, as I take such extreme morbid pleasure in doing) it reminds me of what the nice Highway Patrolman told me before giving me a ticked for doing just this over a double yellow when I was a stupid kid. "What where you going to do next, pass all the cars in front of him next?"

The rule here for any Thai who drives for a living, or owns a Hilux or Fortuner, seems to be, "If there is a vehicle in front of you, you must overtake, or undertake, at all costs." I wish I had video of the big VIP bus and the 30 minutes of insane driving (even for Thailand) I witnessed as he tailgated, sped, overtook/attempted to overtake with oncoming traffic on the windy, hilly road between Suttithani and Rayong one rainy night. It would have been a Youtube hit for sure, especially with the owner/bosses at the bus company. I know, probably wouldn't have made a difference. I even had a chance to film the driver when they pulled over, presumably to let off some protesting/vomiting tourists.

Which reminds me, I need to get a good Thai translation for: "The closer you get, the slower I go. Please drive safely." to put on the back window of the car. Really tired of Somchai sitting 5mm off my bumper.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Scubabuddha

[Bagwan]

Why does the saying "The more things change the more things stay the same" pop into my head???

Because you didn't learn or can't remember the original French version?

[snowflake]

I think that there are no way fines will help in this country, the rich will just pay and laugh it off... what is 5000/8000 DUI fine for a Thai... A big joke!

The bloke and gals on a motorbike will suffer greatly for 500B since they can't really afford it, they will just find a way to get the money... Steal it, borrow it, sell themselves, or save and pay. It does not hurt that the initial fine can be negotiated at the police station.

The guys that wants a higher fine lives in a bubble and they do not really know what is going on. There are many many many people out there that just does not understand the dangers of riding a bike like they do. They do not understand what can happen when you get pissed and ride a bike/drive a car. (I know, they do NOT understand)...

They only way to reduce all traffic problems in Thailand is for the police to educate the people, not to fine them.

If the police fine the people to much they will revolt- It has happened before and it will happen again.

Now, the police also have to take a deep look at themselves, and ask themseleves why they chose to be a police man. Was it so they will get rich, bribes, or some scam that they worked out? Or was it to help the city where they grew up, to make it a better place? If it is the latter, they are in a minority and will fight an uphill battle.

The police have to follow the law just as much as the rest of us (that will never happen).

Lastly, a friend of mine (Thai guy, politician) said to me yesterday "there are much bigger problems in the city that a few people drinking and driving, the police are more worried about drugs and murders"

(Guess why the police will not stop cars after 2300hours, I think it is because they will not go out with guns blazing)...

Key word for the whole thing.... EDUCATION

Educate the masses... They can not have a system like we do in the west with the mentality that they have... Change must come from within.

[sinbin]

Be careful with what you wish. One of the main reason i came to Thailand 9 years ago was because there was more personal freedom here ( I am not speaking about politics here ).

Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country or I will have to move on.

Hear Hear, I agree.... 'Please, please, stop trying to make from Thailand a Western country '

None of us posters are trying to turn Thailand into a "western country". All we're pointing out is ways to make Thailand a safer place to drive in. Even if we were trying to make Thailand into a "western country" what's wrong with that ? Show me one Thai, that given the chance, wouldn't want to live in the west, or at least work there. Edited November 16, 2009 by sinbin

[highlander76]

Staying my wife family near Rangsit the %of thais who do not wear a helmet here must be near 90% no joke nobody cares I have seen kid aged about eight riding mopeds with two friends on the back all with no helmets on. I have no seen one policeman yet here I guess the bibs make money elsewhere

[zzaa09]

Show me one Thai, that given the chance, wouldn't want to live in the west, or at least work there.

Depends on the circles one keeps. Commonly, I know hundreds {and thousands where they came from} that could be quite indifferent towards admiration for Western ways, less giving a rat's arse regarding life and work in Farangville. Better chance, that you've been deeply conditioned into viewing the 'civilised West' as special, extraordinary, and exceptional. Repeated mantra.