Thai, Mexican, United States Beef

[bonobo]

I am off to the Philippines at the end of the week for a week or so, and I started to think. Hamburgers in the Philippines are actually quite good, and the steaks are acceptable as well. What are they doing right that growers in Thailand are not? Both have similar climates.

My guess it's the cooking methods, rather than the beef.

Yes, you are right, the cooking of meat has a lot to do with the final outcome of the quality of the beef!

Cheers:

True, but I have watched Filipino cooks just throw a burger on a griddle and serve it up, just as they do here.  Now a fried burger like that is hardly my preferred method of cooking one, but the ones in the Philippines taste the same as fried burgers in the US, while in Thailand, there is a huge difference.

[sabaijai]

I am off to the Philippines at the end of the week for a week or so, and I started to think. Hamburgers in the Philippines are actually quite good, and the steaks are acceptable as well. What are they doing right that growers in Thailand are not? Both have similar climates.

My guess it's the cooking methods, rather than the beef.

Yes, you are right, the cooking of meat has a lot to do with the final outcome of the quality of the beef!

Cheers:

True, but I have watched Filipino cooks just throw a burger on a griddle and serve it up, just as they do here.  Now a fried burger like that is hardly my preferred method of cooking one, but the ones in the Philippines taste the same as fried burgers in the US, while in Thailand, there is a huge difference.

Yeah but you don't know what was done to the beef before it was tossed on the griddle Personally I doubt the beef raised in the PI is any better than beef raised here. What's needed is a side-by-side taste test.

[bonobo]

Yeah but you don't know what was done to the beef before it was tossed on the griddle Personally I doubt the beef raised in the PI is any better than beef raised here. What's needed is a side-by-side taste test.

I don't know if the beef is very much different as an animal, but the lower end beef dishes, to include cheaper steaks, burgers, and stews, are significantly better in the PI than in Thailand, in my humble opinion.

[Michaelaway]

I am off to the Philippines at the end of the week for a week or so, and I started to think. Hamburgers in the Philippines are actually quite good, and the steaks are acceptable as well. What are they doing right that growers in Thailand are not? Both have similar climates.

My guess it's the cooking methods, rather than the beef.

Yes, you are right, the cooking of meat has a lot to do with the final outcome of the quality of the beef!

Cheers:

So, what to do...?

It's easy to find nice looking, inexpensive cuts of beef here. Unfortunately, most times we try to cook it the ways we always did back home... it's not even close to the same great beef experience. So, my question is:

What steps can we take, after purchasing a good-looking piece of beef at our local market, to tenderize & make it taste good?!?? We've all heard mention of marinating in papaya juice, but what exactly is the procedure? And is this the best way, or the only way to make the Thai beef come out acceptably tasty & edible...?

Anybody out there (especially the OP: how is this tenderizing issue handled in Mexico?) who can educate me & all the rest of the interested parties, thus solving the great Thai beef problem, is likely in line for many, many free roast beef, burgers, filet mignon, etc. dinners... out of sheer gratitude; I know I'll be grateful!

So, what to do...?

[kikoman]

To each his own!

There is not any special secret marinade or tenderizing method that will make Thai , Mexican, American or Australians beef, tasty to all.

All of us have our own idea of what is good, all differ in our taste.

I do not eat much beef since being in Thailand for 9 years.

When I do I look for beef that is not from moving muscle, I look on the back and ribs. I also look for marbling in the meat and also a thin cut accross the grain of the beef.

I take it home my wife marinates it in beer, puts adobo seasoning and garlic on it, and cooks it on the BBQ not a hot fire.

She frys up some chile ,onions and mushrooms together ,and put that over the steak, with a baked potato and a salad on the side.

Most of the time the steak is good and tender at others it is more on the tough side, but always good to me!

Good Luck

Cheers:

[bonobo]

I am in Manila now, and I ate at a mid-level buffet last night, certainly not anywhere with imported beef.  Among the beef dishes, they had gyudon, roast beef, beef stroganoff, a couple Filipino beef dishes, and a beef stew.  All this was with local beef, and all the dishes were really quite adequate.  I would certainly return to this buffet were it in Thailand.

So that brings me to the question on whether it is the beef itself, or is it in fact merely the preparation?

[JR Texas]

I am in Manila now, and I ate at a mid-level buffet last night, certainly not anywhere with imported beef.  Among the beef dishes, they had gyudon, roast beef, beef stroganoff, a couple Filipino beef dishes, and a beef stew.  All this was with local beef, and all the dishes were really quite adequate.  I would certainly return to this buffet were it in Thailand.

So that brings me to the question on whether it is the beef itself, or is it in fact merely the preparation?

Wow........surprise! I wonder what the local cattle look like.

Do they look anorexic like the cattle in Thailand?

Same "Brahman-sort of-like" species?

The essential question, I think, is this: Do the Filipino ranchers grain feed the cattle during the last months?

If so, the cattle add fat and that probably makes the beef better.

If not, it is likely that preparation is a major key.

Maybe you can ask.

[sabaijai]

I am in Manila now, and I ate at a mid-level buffet last night, certainly not anywhere with imported beef.  Among the beef dishes, they had gyudon, roast beef, beef stroganoff, a couple Filipino beef dishes, and a beef stew.  All this was with local beef, and all the dishes were really quite adequate.  I would certainly return to this buffet were it in Thailand.

So that brings me to the question on whether it is the beef itself, or is it in fact merely the preparation?

I imagine cattle in the PI graze grasses that are not dissimilar to those in Thailand. I'm sticking with the notion that it's the preparation. Filipino cooks have the benefit of five centuries of colonialisation under the Spanish and the Americans.

When you find a Thai cook who knows how to cook local beef here, it's delicious.

[kikoman]

I am in Manila now, and I ate at a mid-level buffet last night, certainly not anywhere with imported beef. Among the beef dishes, they had gyudon, roast beef, beef stroganoff, a couple Filipino beef dishes, and a beef stew. All this was with local beef, and all the dishes were really quite adequate. I would certainly return to this buffet were it in Thailand.

So that brings me to the question on whether it is the beef itself, or is it in fact merely the preparation?

I imagine cattle in the PI graze grasses that are not dissimilar to those in Thailand. I'm sticking with the notion that it's the preparation. Filipino cooks have the benefit of five centuries of colonialisation under the Spanish and the Americans.

When you find a Thai cook who knows how to cook local beef here, it's delicious.

I agree with your statement,the meat has the same background as Mexican and U.S. beef.

How it is prepared is also a big plus.

Cheers:

[JR Texas]

Looks like the Philippines is importing a lot of cattle from Australia......no doubt for breeding purposes.

Also found this: http://www.mixph.com/2009/07/guide-to-back...-fattening.html

Cattle fattening has gained prominence as an important business project of the livestock industry in the Philippines. It gives the farmer year-round work and provides him with extra income. He can make use of cheap, plentiful farm by-products such as corn stovers, rice straw, copra meal, rice bran and sugarcane tops, which ordinarily go to waste. Most importantly, it helps meet the urgent demand for high-protein foods in the Filipino diet.

Backyard cattle fattening or on a large scale can be profitably undertaken. It consists of buying healthy stock, feeding and fattening them for 120 to 180 days, and selling them at anytime of the year. Minimum space for housing is required: 1.5 to 2 sq. meters per head for a sheltered feeding area, and 5 meters per head for a fenced loafing area.

Given the proper care, there is less danger of diseases and parasites affecting confined animals and the fattening period is shorter. Marbling or inter-mixture of fat and lean in meat is better obtained through feedlot fattening. This is preferred by customers.

Maybe what is happening in the Philippines is a the introduction of superior genetic stock coupled with limited "fattening" during the last 120-180 days. I just have a hard time believing it is cooking technique only.

Like most dishes, it generally ends up only as good as the raw ingredients.............quality input = quality output. Not always......but often. The beef in Thailand is horrible......don't think it has been altered via breeding with superior stock.......don't think any fattening occurs prior to slaughter. And that is why it tastes so strange and is not easy to cook.

[SpoliaOpima]

I think either you have an incredible knack for finding bad restaurants -- some places can't afford the good stuff, where do you live? -- or you hold some weird Tex-chauvinistic prejudice. Thais also have different standards for taste and texture and that's where the cooking comes in. Even when it's tough it never tastes 'weird.'

I've had plenty of steaks made with Thai beef, not to mention local dishes with beef, that have been delicious.

Also Thailand has been importing breeding stock for decades.

Edited December 13, 2009 by SpoliaOpima

[bonobo]

My last meal in Manila before getting on the plane back to Thailand:  US imported beef hamburger on an oatmeal bun, truly superb fries, and so-so coleslaw.  The burger was quite good even if not outstanding--better than any I have had in Thailand.  And the cost?  About 150 baht.

[SpoliaOpima]

Bonobo, you need to get around more

[kikoman]

Preparation and cooking, have a lot to do with the final out come of the food being prepared.

I have seen this continually, as my wife has attempted to show other women how to make tortillas, using the same ingredients and quality of said ingredient and the out come is very different. Instead of a nice soft pliable tortilla ,some end up with products that resemble, hard crackers instead.

Cooking is an art,and the end results of the beef ,tend to be very different.

Cheers:

[JR Texas]

Preparation and cooking, have a lot to do with the final out come of the food being prepared.

I have seen this continually, as my wife has attempted to show other women how to make tortillas, using the same ingredients and quality of said ingredient and the out come is very different. Instead of a nice soft pliable tortilla ,some end up with products that resemble, hard crackers instead.

Cooking is an art,and the end results of the beef ,tend to be very different.

Cheers:

You were born in Mexico, right? That means that the beef you ate growing up is your standard for "good." It is a cultural thing. My standard is Texas beef. It is not the same as yours.......you are right.......and so am I. It is a cultural thing.

That said, I have this feeling that you know how to make outstanding tortillas.........PLEASE POST YOUR RECIPE or any recipes for Mexican food. Some of us would really like to know how to make very good Mexican food.

I, for one, am very interested in sauces or salsa. Red, green, etc. Is there any way to make them in Thailand using Thai peppers?

Thanks.

[bonobo]

Bonobo, you need to get around more

Well, perhaps you can enlighten me as where to get a decent burger here?  The best I have had might be at the BBQ Sandwich King, but the one I just had in Manila was not only better, but about 100 baht cheaper.

[bkkjames]

Bonobo, you need to get around more

Well, perhaps you can enlighten me as where to get a decent burger here?  The best I have had might be at the BBQ Sandwich King, but the one I just had in Manila was not only better, but about 100 baht cheaper.

I had a fantastic cheeseburger at the Royal Cliff a couple weeks back.

[bonobo]

Bonobo, you need to get around more

Well, perhaps you can enlighten me as where to get a decent burger here?  The best I have had might be at the BBQ Sandwich King, but the one I just had in Manila was not only better, but about 100 baht cheaper.

I had a fantastic cheeseburger at the Royal Cliff a couple weeks back.

I rarely go to Pattaya, but next time I am there, I will give the Royal Cliff a shot.  

[SpoliaOpima]

Bonobo, you need to get around more

Well, perhaps you can enlighten me as where to get a decent burger here?  The best I have had might be at the BBQ Sandwich King, but the one I just had in Manila was not only better, but about 100 baht cheaper.

Actually I meant to post more than just the comment that you need to get around more, which looks rather rude by itself, and was not intended to be. What I meant to say was that a lot of places in Thailand use imported USDA-grade American beef for burgers or otherwise. Last time I had a burger at the Hard Rock Cafe in Bkk, for example, they used US beef. Australian beef is also not uncommon, and very good.

Last week I had an excellent burger at Bistro M, behind Emporium on Suk soi 24 (good restaurant btw, with good pricing). Didn't notice whether the menu stated the origin of the beef but it was one of the better hamburgers I've had in awhile.

So if a burger made with US beef tastes better in the PI than here, it would tend to support the argument that it's the cooking more than it is the beef.

Re 'Texas beef,' plenty of Mexican beef is imported to the US and eaten by Americans who don't know the difference. I'm betting that if an adept chef cooked a slab of good Sonoran beef and one of Texas beef, then served them to you side by side, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Or you might even prefer the Sonoran beef. Texas longhorns hail from Spain, by way of Mexico as did the original culutre of ranching, cowboys and buckaroos (vaqueros).

Mexican cattle are continually imported to the US as feeder and stock cattle as well. About 45 % of all Mexican cattle imports end up in Texas. So it really means little to call an animal 'American' or 'Texan.'

More info on the strong relationship between Mexican and US beef cattle:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/agout...2001/AO282d.pdf

Mexican beef is classified in four major styles:

“Carne Norte” (Northern Style)

– American style, more fat and some marbling

• “Carne de Engorda” (Mexican Fed Beef)

– Finishing in feedlots or on pasture with supplementation

– Little fat (but white) and no marbling

• “Carne Tradicional” (Traditional Beef)

– Grass finished

– Little fat (yellow) and no marbling

• “Carne de Vaca” or “Carne de Desecho”

– Cull cow and bull beef

Unfortunately Mexican beef is not available here

At any rate, US beef is readily available in Thailand for those who want to pay the import premium. I've had burgers made with ground Thai sirloin cuts that are as good as any burgers I've had anywhere, all depending on the preparation.

[JR Texas]

Just found this, 2009 data:

http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/2137...t-november-2009

Mexican cattle imported into the United States are almost all cattle that have been fed on pasture and are being sold for further feeding, either in backgrounding operations or feedlots, in the United States. While year-to-date figures are above last year’s exceptionally low import levels, they are well below the 5-year historical average. Recent pasture conditions in Mexico have been mixed. Some areas near the Texas border have been experiencing the same dry conditions that have occurred in Southern Texas, while other areas further west and south have had better precipitation. Imports from Mexico have been lagging behind historical levels as feeder cattle prices in the Southern Plains remain low, partially as a result of drought conditions in Southern Texas.

It looks to me like most of the cattle exported from Mexico to the USA need "further feeding" before going to market.

I think this is the key to "good beef" as seen through the eyes of people living in many developed Western countries.

But it is a cultural thing........good beef, I think, is what you grew up on. If you grew up in Mexico eating skinny, pasture fed cattle, then that becomes your reference for good beef.

But if you grew up in, say, Texas, eating fat, grain fed cattle, you have a different outlook on what good beef is.

Both positions are valid........it is a cultural thing.

[SpoliaOpima]

True., but I'm not so ethnocentric as to prefer only products from my own country. It's a big world out there, and you're not in Texas anymore, Dorothy Why torment yourself with memories of what you can no longer have, when with a little flexibility you might grow to enjoy what's right in front of you? That's one of the keys to expat happiness. I mean that will all sincerity, JR. You seem to be all uptight how stuff you can't change.

BTW cattle in Mexico are not necessarily skinny. There are ganaderias that raise excellent beeves, as big and fat as any Texas variety, and on the same grain.

Also try coming to Bkk more often, where the beef doesn't taste weird.

[kikoman]

Texas has changed a lot in the last 26 years!

Texas, California , New Mexico and Hawaii Are Minority/ Majority states. which means Anglos are no longer the majority in those states now as we speak.

With the change in population, also comes a change in the food. Tex/Mex is the so called Mexican food that has strayed further from the original American/Mexican diet. As it incorporated a lot of beef into its dishes, that do not exist in the other Mexican, Mexican- American border foods.

In my first postings I stated, that Mexican Cattle were feeder stock, that ended up in Texas and other states feedlots. Texans have been eating Mexican beef, for decades, as well as most Americans. Foods in the US will now be labeled from where the U.S. food supply comes from, many will be surprised at the production point of origin of the food their eating.

Beef is beef, where ever it comes from!

There is starting a movement in the U.S. to return to grass feeding their cattle as that is the cows natural food! Corn is not, so as to deal with the illness corn causes feedlot cattle and the great amount of Antibiotics ,given to feedlot cattle is passed on to the consumer of that beef. The U.S. population is becoming more immune to different strains of infection because of the overconsumption of the medication given to the beef they consume.

Cheers:.

[hogheaven]

Bonobo, you need to get around more

Well, perhaps you can enlighten me as where to get a decent burger here? The best I have had might be at the BBQ Sandwich King, but the one I just had in Manila was not only better, but about 100 baht cheaper.

Actually I meant to post more than just the comment that you need to get around more, which looks rather rude by itself, and was not intended to be. What I meant to say was that a lot of places in Thailand use imported USDA-grade American beef for burgers or otherwise. Last time I had a burger at the Hard Rock Cafe in Bkk, for example, they used US beef. Australian beef is also not uncommon, and very good.

Last week I had an excellent burger at Bistro M, behind Emporium on Suk soi 24 (good restaurant btw, with good pricing). Didn't notice whether the menu stated the origin of the beef but it was one of the better hamburgers I've had in awhile.

So if a burger made with US beef tastes better in the PI than here, it would tend to support the argument that it's the cooking more than it is the beef.

Re 'Texas beef,' plenty of Mexican beef is imported to the US and eaten by Americans who don't know the difference. I'm betting that if an adept chef cooked a slab of good Sonoran beef and one of Texas beef, then served them to you side by side, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Or you might even prefer the Sonoran beef. Texas longhorns hail from Spain, by way of Mexico as did the original culutre of ranching, cowboys and buckaroos (vaqueros).

Mexican cattle are continually imported to the US as feeder and stock cattle as well. About 45 % of all Mexican cattle imports end up in Texas. So it really means little to call an animal 'American' or 'Texan.'

More info on the strong relationship between Mexican and US beef cattle:

http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/agout...2001/AO282d.pdf

Mexican beef is classified in four major styles:

"Carne Norte" (Northern Style)

– American style, more fat and some marbling

• "Carne de Engorda" (Mexican Fed Beef)

– Finishing in feedlots or on pasture with supplementation

– Little fat (but white) and no marbling

• "Carne Tradicional" (Traditional Beef)

– Grass finished

– Little fat (yellow) and no marbling

• "Carne de Vaca" or "Carne de Desecho"

– Cull cow and bull beef

Unfortunately Mexican beef is not available here

At any rate, US beef is readily available in Thailand for those who want to pay the import premium. I've had burgers made with ground Thai sirloin cuts that are as good as any burgers I've had anywhere, all depending on the preparation.

what if i told you i have french Charley hear in Thailand PURE BREAD , bread for eating , not cheap , that is why i have opted not to Slater for this fall, but 30 day aged rib eye with tail 2 in thick marbled , the feed and type do matter , also the cooking and aging

most meat hear is cut to thin 1 in min. is best, but , i will bet the grill flavor is what was tasted not the meat,

BBQ is the only way to make a burger or steak , or open flame at least,

BEEF IS BEEF ......tell that to Japan,,,Kobe beef ,,,,,that was stupid .....there are breads for eating , milking, working, .....beef is not beef......

tell that to ans Angus cattle rancher , then ask why his beef cost more per pound , or Kobe, or Charley, if beef was just beef then you could get as good a Thai beef as any other place ....DO YOU????

Edited December 19, 2009 by hogheaven

[raro]

Please keep it civil, thanks!

[JR Texas]

You are, of course, right Hogheaven. Unfortunately, some people have decided to ignore reality/facts.

Fact: All species of cattle are not the same, especially with respect to how the beef tastes.......itself related to feeding practices.

Fact: Grain feeding cattle before slaughter is becoming more, not less popular in Mexico. Why? Because many Mexicans prefer the

"different tastes" of grain fed cattle.

Relatedly, the cattle from Mexico along the border, when they are exported to the USA, are normally put in fed lots and fattened up prior to slaughter. Why? Because most people in the USA prefer grain fed beef.........simple.

Fact: The Texas Longhorn came from Spain (not Mexico).......then went to Mexico..........then to Texas. That was a long time ago. It plays a very minor role in America's beef industry (mostly genetic manipulation for disease resistance).

Fact: The two species that are most popular for beef in the USA are herford and angus..........both from across the pond. They did not come from Mexico.

Fact: Mexican cattle have benefitted enourmously from genetic breeding with American cattle.

Fact: Whether or not you like grain fed beef or not depends on your cultural upbringing........it is a cultural thing.

[bonobo]

My question now is what breed of cow is used for Thai beef.  Is it only a matter of selecting the proper breed?  As I wrote before, I have found Filipino beef to be quite acceptable, and with similar climatic and soil conditions, it seems to me that the beef itself could be quite similar to each other.  But in tasting the two, Filipino is much superior, in my opinion.

[JR Texas]

My question now is what breed of cow is used for Thai beef.  Is it only a matter of selecting the proper breed?  As I wrote before, I have found Filipino beef to be quite acceptable, and with similar climatic and soil conditions, it seems to me that the beef itself could be quite similar to each other.  But in tasting the two, Filipino is much superior, in my opinion.

Howdy Bonobo..........the Thai cattle we are most familiar with, the white-colored one with the big ears, is called Thai-Brahman. As the name suggests, it is originally from India........the famous Brahman cattle.

I see it all over Thailand......very common...........and always skinny because they don't grain feed them.

In the Philippines, I read that they have imported a lot of cattle from Australia and are no doubt cross breeding them with the local cattle, also a version of Brahman as far as I can tell from pictures.

In the Philippines they also (not always) grain feed them prior to slaughter....if not grain a high energy substitute. That means more fat content and better tastes for some people who prefer that taste.

Interesting enough, in the USA we imported Brahman cattle a long time ago and also Charolaise (spelling) from France and cross bred them to get Charbray:

Here is a Charbray:

Here is a Brahman (healthy, grain fed one in the USA.....notice how different it looks from the Thai-Brahman):

And here is a Charolaisse (notice how full it is.........no bones showing):

Don't think I need to post a pic of the skinny, anorexic Thai-Brahman species in Thailand

I see no reason why Thailand can't do more in terms of cross breeding.........personally, I would strongly consider the Charbray, but I have no idea how it would manage in this heat.......certainly the Brahman is adapted to this heat.

The species does matter.........but I think that what matters most is grain feeding at least three months prior to slaughter. That is, it matters if you like and are used to the taste and quality of American beef, or Canadian beef, or Australian beef, or New Zealand beef.

[kikoman]

The thread is related to Thai, Mexican and U.S. beef, What an individual is willing to pay for Kobe beef is entirely up to them.

I would like to know what Thai based Mexican Restaurants are serving Kobe beef?

I will return to beef 101.

Mexican Beef,Hereford is the most represented beef ,not only in Mexico, but in all Latin America

Black Angus herd were imported to Mexico from Canada, which in turn exports feeders to the U.S.!

Charolai were imported from France to Mexico in 1936, Mexico exported the breed to the U.S. in 1950!

Limousin were imported to Mexico from France in 1936, which Mexico exported to the U.S. !

Mexico is the number one exporter of feeder cattle To the U.S., Thur ports in Texas, New Mexico and Arizona.

I would venture to say most Mexican restaurants in Thailand serve Thai beef, as it is the least expensive and tends to keep cost lower.

I purchased Australian beef in Pattaya, and it was tough and not tasty. I have gone to walking street and ordered an U.S. T-bone steak ,it was just as bad!

I do not eat much beef now, as I gave up on finding good tender beef!

My Experience with Thai beef has been better, with the cuts I purchase in Nakhon Sawan and the meat truck that serves my village.

My wife knowing how to cook beef to my taste.

I live in the real world what is available to me here in central Thailand, not what I dream for that is not.

That is the reason why Tex-Mex food will not be a theme of a new resturant in Thailand, the beef involved would be to costly verses , authentic Mexican food.

Beef is beef, end of story!

Edited December 20, 2009 by kikoman

[JR Texas]

The end of the story is that you are totally wrong!

[bkkjames]

The end of the story is that you are totally wrong!

Finally, the thread ends to everyone's relief..

++__**** CLOSED****__++