Red Shirt Rally November 29

[jayboy]

The world saw a bloodless coup with soldiers holding riffles and getting flowers from girls, the world saw a airport seizure with ' Kum-Ba-Yah my Lord singing' grandmothers and children. The world also saw the Songkran Riots with red shirted idiots taking over armoured military vehicles, placing LPG tankers in residential areas and creating absolute mayhem in the streets of Bangkok. Low key? Yeah right, headlines everywhere in the world!

Priceless and beyond comment.Kum-Ba-Yah to you and all the rest who believe in fairies.

[rixalex]

low key Songkran riots?

By the standards of political street violence, yes..very.

Could it have been worse? Yes.

Was it very low key? No. Don't be daft.

[justanothercybertosser]

Well I guess most of us must be blind and idiots in believing the typical reactionary and dishonest rubbish

The PAD movement's bullying and violence is a matter of record, and set the tone for street politics.For a time there was an active effort on the yellows to court martyrdom through provocative acts.I have never incidentally excused the red acts of violence.

Overall - and both sides tend to be uncomfortable with this - the striking aspect given the bitterness of the division is actually how little violence there has been.I say striking because its relative absence doesn't fit in with the myth building (of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example).

The world saw a bloodless coup with soldiers holding riffles and getting flowers from girls, the world saw a airport seizure with ' Kum-Ba-Yah my Lord singing' grandmothers and children. The world also saw the Songkran Riots with red shirted idiots taking over armoured military vehicles, placing LPG tankers in residential areas and creating absolute mayhem in the streets of Bangkok. Low key? Yeah right, headlines everywhere in the world!

The world has also seen PAD guards during the airport occupation shooting at Red Shirts in Vibhavadi Soi 3. That clip was actually played many times during that time in major networks such as CNN and BBC.

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key". This might not be so the next time. There is an explosive mix of angry Red Shirts, angry PAD (read their extremely nationalist statements here: http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/1495 ), and an increasingly helpless government.

Every side here avoids to take the steps towards a peaceful resolution.

[jif]

Sorry to interrupt, but if I may be allowed to return to the topic of the thread for a moment, I never expected General Panlop Pinmanee to be the voice of reason within the PTP, but his condemnation this morning of the upcoming Red Shirt rally is noteworthy. The inappropriateness of their timing is staggering.

Edited November 22, 2009 by jif

[baht&sold]

Sorry to interrupt, but if I may be allowed to return to the topic of the thread for a moment, I never expected General Panlop Pinmanee to be the voice of reason within the PTP, but his condemnation this morning of the upcoming Red Shirt rally is noteworthy. The inappropriateness of their timing is staggering.

Might add to the above, Mr Thaksin appears to be coming primarily to 'recoup' his frozen approx 2 billion USD before time runs out (court decision looms next month). Also to replenish dwindling offshore bank accounts and to once again place 'team cronies' in every branch of Govt, Military and Police in hoped for return to autocratic 'rule' without checks or balances.

This all has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy, assisting the poor, or helping Thailand. Quite the opposite.

Auspicious birthdays, frail fathers, and high season all squarely pale in the face of Mr Thaksin's self-significance, desire for revenge, megalomaniacal lust and pure greed.

[rixalex]

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key".

Funny isn't it? The same people who argued tooth and nail than people sitting at an airport was an act of terrorism, now describe people running amock on the streets of Bangkok, hijacking buses, threatening to blow up tankers, attacking the Prime Minister's car, etc, etc, as being low key, purely on the basis that it could have been worse.

[Publicus]

Sorry to interrupt, but if I may be allowed to return to the topic of the thread for a moment, I never expected General Panlop Pinmanee to be the voice of reason within the PTP, but his condemnation this morning of the upcoming Red Shirt rally is noteworthy. The inappropriateness of their timing is staggering.

Indeed, the inappropriateness is both brazenly deliberate and astounding, the worst imaginable indication of their intents and purposes.

[frodo]

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key".

Funny isn't it? The same people who argued tooth and nail than people sitting at an airport was an act of terrorism, now describe people running amock on the streets of Bangkok, hijacking buses, threatening to blow up tankers, attacking the Prime Minister's car, etc, etc, as being low key, purely on the basis that it could have been worse.

So low key that even the criminal fugitive got on CNN during that time and blathered to the world over and over that many people died and were loaded onto trucks. Thankfully, his death wish to Thailand didn't come true. Nonetheless, this was not low key.

[jayboy]

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key".

Funny isn't it? The same people who argued tooth and nail than people sitting at an airport was an act of terrorism, now describe people running amock on the streets of Bangkok, hijacking buses, threatening to blow up tankers, attacking the Prime Minister's car, etc, etc, as being low key, purely on the basis that it could have been worse.

It's a fair point.I think however the distinction is that the yellow acts of violence culminating in the airport seizure were openly supported by the ruling elite, the army and their political stooges.The events of Songkran were disruptive to city life and in my view misguided but in the measure of these things not particularly violent.A mythology of crazed red revolutionaries crashing LPG tankers into city buildings is insisted on by some - but the reality is that throughout the last few years of political division the level of violence has been tiny.I would have thought that was something Thais could be proud of.

As far as international perception is concerned the seizure of the airports and the spinelessness of the authorities is what lingers, not the Songkran riots.

[KireB]

The world has also seen PAD guards during the airport occupation shooting at Red Shirts in Vibhavadi Soi 3. That clip was actually played many times during that time in major networks such as CNN and BBC.

The shooting at Vibhavadi was before the airport debacle and happened because a group of sponsored motorcyle taxi morons attacked them!

Ths all happened during the time that the yellow rallies were attacked (at night) by grenade launchers!

[hammered]

Sorry to interrupt, but if I may be allowed to return to the topic of the thread for a moment, I never expected General Panlop Pinmanee to be the voice of reason within the PTP, but his condemnation this morning of the upcoming Red Shirt rally is noteworthy. The inappropriateness of their timing is staggering.

I dont doubt there are very real differences over tactics on the red side. I also dont doubt someone like Gen. Panlop would recognize the chance of violence whenever you put a large number of people in a highly charged and maybe hate fueled rally and that violence stemming from it may well negatively impact on that side. I am also sure Gen. Panlop will have some idea of the level of sympathy or lack of it in the army. That is a real wildcard and one that we cannot even guess at, but to whihc he is probably aware. However, it is possible to guess that different timing may see a greater sympathy.

Of course it is always possible that Gen. Panlop is just covering his butt with the statement too though lets assume he isnt.

Lets also hope calmer heads prevail.

[hammered]

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key".

Funny isn't it? The same people who argued tooth and nail than people sitting at an airport was an act of terrorism, now describe people running amock on the streets of Bangkok, hijacking buses, threatening to blow up tankers, attacking the Prime Minister's car, etc, etc, as being low key, purely on the basis that it could have been worse.

It's a fair point.I think however the distinction is that the yellow acts of violence culminating in the airport seizure were openly supported by the ruling elite, the army and their political stooges.The events of Songkran were disruptive to city life and in my view misguided but in the measure of these things not particularly violent.A mythology of crazed red revolutionaries crashing LPG tankers into city buildings is insisted on by some - but the reality is that throughout the last few years of political division the level of violence has been tiny.I would have thought that was something Thais could be proud of.

As far as international perception is concerned the seizure of the airports and the spinelessness of the authorities is what lingers, not the Songkran riots.

Threatening to explode an LPG tanker in a residential area is terrorism. It doesnt have to be compared to what anyone else did any other time, and ZI am not going to get into the yellows and their acts, which I also condemn, as that is totally irrelvent to defining this act. It is irrelvent what the poltical motivation of those carrying out or who backed them were. That that incident wasnt worse is pretty much down to luck as anything else. It cannot be apologised away by saying their poltical motivations are good. This wasnt an attack on the elite, the military, the government or some symbol of their power but an attack on poor peoplke in a residentiual area with a diverse mix of political opinions getting on with their lives and trying to enjoy a bit of time off of work. This act does not hit into any hypothesis of ongoing class struggle or struggle against oppression. It could be argued that many other acts by the reds could be viewed in this way.

I do agree that the level of death has been low to date and hopefully it remain so although I think this unlikely and some openly postulate that the situation wont be resolved until some/much bloodletting has occurred.

[animatic]

Well I guess most of us must be blind and idiots in believing the typical reactionary and dishonest rubbish

The PAD movement's bullying and violence is a matter of record, and set the tone for street politics.For a time there was an active effort on the yellows to court martyrdom through provocative acts.I have never incidentally excused the red acts of violence.

Overall - and both sides tend to be uncomfortable with this - the striking aspect given the bitterness of the division is actually how little violence there has been.I say striking because its relative absence doesn't fit in with the myth building (of which the rather low key Songkran riot is a prime example).

The world saw a bloodless coup with soldiers holding riffles and getting flowers from girls, the world saw a airport seizure with ' Kum-Ba-Yah my Lord singing' grandmothers and children. The world also saw the Songkran Riots with red shirted idiots taking over armoured military vehicles, placing LPG tankers in residential areas and creating absolute mayhem in the streets of Bangkok. Low key? Yeah right, headlines everywhere in the world!

The world has also seen PAD guards during the airport occupation shooting at Red Shirts in Vibhavadi Soi 3. That clip was actually played many times during that time in major networks such as CNN and BBC.

And yes, compared to what could have happened, and has happened in Thailand's past, the Songkran riots were "low key". This might not be so the next time. There is an explosive mix of angry Red Shirts, angry PAD (read their extremely nationalist statements here: http://www.prachatai.com/english/node/1495 ), and an increasingly helpless government.

Every side here avoids to take the steps towards a peaceful resolution.

Sorry, your memory is bad,

but that Soi 3 shooting incident was BEFORE the Airport was taken over.

And the shooting was clearly because dozens of red taxi tdrivers were converging on the PAD truck.

It is shown as so in extended versions of this video clip.

After the bombing nightly of the PAD at gov house these guys in the truck

as reasonable reason to expect a bomb could be coming their way.

I disagree they should have been shooting,

but it in light of ALL video shot seems defensive,

and with dozens of armed targets around them,

also clear in the extened video, not one person was killed.

I am not a PAD member nor particularly a fan, I agree on certain PAD points only,

just as I agree on certain redshirt points also.

But also don't like to see this repeated mis-statement of facts

The violence will come when it suits Thaksin's purposes.

Sad state of affairs that.

[rixalex]

You can't speak for others...

However you have no more right than I do do to speak for "most of us"

...but you can speak for the international community? I'm impressed.

As far as international perception is concerned the seizure of the airports and the spinelessness of the authorities is what lingers, not the Songkran riots.

[jayboy]

You can't speak for others...

However you have no more right than I do do to speak for "most of us"

...but you can speak for the international community? I'm impressed.

As far as international perception is concerned the seizure of the airports and the spinelessness of the authorities is what lingers, not the Songkran riots.

Non sequitur I'm afraid on your part.

Anyway the proof is simple.Go to the US, Europe, Australia, Japan and talk without prompting to anyone without a particular connection to Thailand.Ask them a propos Thailand's political difficulties what particular incident they recall over the last year or so.It doesn't take a genius to work out it would be the closing down of the country through illegal seizure of the airport.

[rixalex]

Non sequitur I'm afraid on your part.

Is the Latin really necessary? I find it a little pompous when used seemingly for appearances, don't you?

Anyway the proof is simple.Go to the US, Europe, Australia, Japan and talk without prompting to anyone without a particular connection to Thailand.Ask them a propos Thailand's political difficulties what particular incident they recall over the last year or so.It doesn't take a genius to work out it would be the closing down of the country through illegal seizure of the airport.

Seems you have an unusual idea of what constitutes proof Jayboy.

[zzaa09]

What is clear is that Thaskin as trying to gain the upper hand in the military and they stopped that.

Another thing is the modern military, for good or ill, has been acting as a relief valve as politicians

Seem to NOT be able to get the jobs done and not rape the country in the process.

The implied threat of military intervention seems the only thing keeping some pols from

going the whole ten yards into total domination and evisceration of the country's coffers.

Indeed. Less, people forget. Nothing will ever change until the deepest ideals of extended militarism {and it's extended orthodoxy} becomes an superficial entity of the past.

[KireB]

Non sequitur I'm afraid on your part.

Anyway the proof is simple.Go to the US, Europe, Australia, Japan and talk without prompting to anyone without a particular connection to Thailand.Ask them a propos Thailand's political difficulties what particular incident they recall over the last year or so.It doesn't take a genius to work out it would be the closing down of the country through illegal seizure of the airport.

Either you travel a lot and interview a statistically significant number of people, or you are just fabricating nonsense!

Only a genius could tell!

[zzaa09]

[

Or chalerm then he could quickly organize for one of his sons to step into the role. Or even jatuporn or even a return of somchai. Wow, so much talent.

So much wasted talent, yes it's a shame they haven't been "wasted" like in "make my day"

Sad and pathetic to say, but Thailand hasn't produced an actual or transformative leader since............................................. since.............since..........................

Chulalongkorn.

Yes, and quite underplayed and underappreciated throughout scholarship circles.

[baht&sold]

Only psychophant minions (with glaringly obvious agendas) would denounce airport closures and then in the same breath, brush off the violent Songkran riots, the threatening of poor people with incineration, the attacks on the PM and Asean leaders, as 'mild'...

Reasonable people would denounce BOTH yellow airport closures AND the violent red Songkran riots and wish for NEITHER to repeat.

However, it becomes apparent sychophant minions cynically use the airport closures as an open-ended carte blanche for the red leaders/Puea Thai MP's to incite any and all mayhem just so their 'boss' may be returned (even if it means Thailand burns, high season is shattered and the most beloved birthday in the nation is all but trod upon)

Edited November 22, 2009 by baht&sold

[frodo]

I see a few red shirt leaders are getting cold feet with regards to the riot rally on the 29th. It would be another backlash if they went ahead and did this. For the few naysayers on the forum as to whether or not Thaksin is pulling the strings, here's a nice quote from a Udon Red Leader:

"...Kwanchai Praiphana, chairman of the Udon Thani Loving People, said the final decision would depend on former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra."

It's all about Thaksin and nothing more.

Red Shirt Leader Disagrees With Rally On 29th

[webfact]

Udon red-shirt leader disagrees with holding rally before HM's birthday

Udon Thani - A local red-shirt leader here Sunday expressed opposition to holding an anti-government rally before His Majesty the King's birthday, fearing the red-shirt movement would be seen as being disloyal to the King.

Despite the concern, Kwanchai Praiphana, chairman of the Udon Thani Loving People, said the final decision would depend on former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

The trio leaders of the red-shirt movement - Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua and Jatuporn Promphan - announced earlier that they would hold a mass rally against the government from November 28 to December 3.

"I think there should be no movement before December 5 or else the red-shirt people will be seen with no loyalty for His Majesty," Kwanchai said.

"At that time, there will be rehearsals of the Trooping of the Colour so it is inappropriate to rally in those days."

-- The Nation 2009/11/22

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[jayboy]

Non sequitur I'm afraid on your part.

Anyway the proof is simple.Go to the US, Europe, Australia, Japan and talk without prompting to anyone without a particular connection to Thailand.Ask them a propos Thailand's political difficulties what particular incident they recall over the last year or so.It doesn't take a genius to work out it would be the closing down of the country through illegal seizure of the airport.

Either you travel a lot and interview a statistically significant number of people, or you are just fabricating nonsense!

Only a genius could tell!

All I can say is ask and see what the response is.To summarise, what particular incident in Thailand's recent political troubles sticks in the minds of non-partisan foreigners?

[zzaa09]

Non sequitur I'm afraid on your part.

Anyway the proof is simple.Go to the US, Europe, Australia, Japan and talk without prompting to anyone without a particular connection to Thailand.Ask them a propos Thailand's political difficulties what particular incident they recall over the last year or so.It doesn't take a genius to work out it would be the closing down of the country through illegal seizure of the airport.

Either you travel a lot and interview a statistically significant number of people, or you are just fabricating nonsense!

Only a genius could tell!

All I can say is ask and see what the response is.To summarise, what particular incident in Thailand's recent political troubles sticks in the minds of non-partisan foreigners?

Ahhh....1973? 1976? 1992? As non-partisan foreigners, of course.

[Publicus]

Non sequitur I'm afraid on your part.

Is the Latin really necessary? I find it a little pompous when used seemingly for appearances, don't you?

Anyway the proof is simple.Go to the US, Europe, Australia, Japan and talk without prompting to anyone without a particular connection to Thailand.Ask them a propos Thailand's political difficulties what particular incident they recall over the last year or so.It doesn't take a genius to work out it would be the closing down of the country through illegal seizure of the airport.

Seems you have an unusual idea of what constitutes proof Jayboy.

"Non sequitur" is what some people say when they can't bother to respond or simply cannot respond. Orwell made the point well when he discussed the use French or Latin rather than the use of plain and direct Anglo-Saxon.

Edited November 22, 2009 by Publicus

[justanothercybertosser]

Sorry, your memory is bad,

but that Soi 3 shooting incident was BEFORE the Airport was taken over.

And the shooting was clearly because dozens of red taxi tdrivers were converging on the PAD truck.

It is shown as so in extended versions of this video clip.

After the bombing nightly of the PAD at gov house these guys in the truck

as reasonable reason to expect a bomb could be coming their way.

Rubbish.

It was PAD guards returning from occupied Don Muang airport.

No extended version of the video shows Red taxi drivers "converging" on the PAD truck exists.

Throughout the day Red Shirts have thrown stones and fired sling shots at passing PAD vehicles on the way to the airport. The PAD truck though came from the airport (opposite lane to Vibhavadi Soi 3), stopped, and the guards started shooting, jumped over the middle strip, crossed the road, kept on shooting, and held a motorcycle taxi driver with a sword over his throat.

Edited November 22, 2009 by justanothercybertosser

[h90]

Sorry, your memory is bad,

but that Soi 3 shooting incident was BEFORE the Airport was taken over.

And the shooting was clearly because dozens of red taxi tdrivers were converging on the PAD truck.

It is shown as so in extended versions of this video clip.

After the bombing nightly of the PAD at gov house these guys in the truck

as reasonable reason to expect a bomb could be coming their way.

Rubbish.

It was PAD guards returning from occupied Don Muang airport.

No extended version of the video shows Red taxi drivers "converging" on the PAD truck exists.

Throughout the day Red Shirts have thrown stones and fired sling shots at passing PAD vehicles on the way to the airport. The PAD truck though came from the airport (opposite lane to Vibhavadi Soi 3), stopped, and the guards started shooting, jumped over the middle strip, crossed the road, kept on shooting, and held a motorcycle taxi driver with a sword over his throat.

Ask your friends what really happened. One of our friends was on the OTHER truck together with mostly females.......

The attempt to attack that truck triggered the action of the PAD guards.

[hammered]

We may yet get the posponement of the rally. As Khwanchai said it is up to Thaksin. What better way to show loyalty than to call for the red shirts to not gather to allow a smooth celebration of the Birthday. That however, allows Abhisit a big role in condfucting events on TV and Thaksin may not like that. Lets assume he isnt murdered in Chiang Mai too.

Edited to add: I sincerely apologise for posting on the topic rather than the old events we have have discussed for many many months.

Edited November 22, 2009 by hammered

[KireB]

Rubbish.

It was PAD guards returning from occupied Don Muang airport.

No extended version of the video shows Red taxi drivers "converging" on the PAD truck exists.

Throughout the day Red Shirts have thrown stones and fired sling shots at passing PAD vehicles on the way to the airport. The PAD truck though came from the airport (opposite lane to Vibhavadi Soi 3), stopped, and the guards started shooting, jumped over the middle strip, crossed the road, kept on shooting, and held a motorcycle taxi driver with a sword over his throat.

The Don Muang airport is not part of this discussion. Don Muang was the location where Thaksin's proxy government had her meetings and, at least for a while, tried to change the constitution for Thaksin to return unpunished! The airport in discussion is about the new airport, not Don Muang! The yellow convoy on her way back from protecting this country from a group of people that steals, lies, manipulates, corrupts and murders was attacked by taxi drivers and went after them.

[animatic]

Sorry, your memory is bad,

but that Soi 3 shooting incident was BEFORE the Airport was taken over.

And the shooting was clearly because dozens of red taxi tdrivers were converging on the PAD truck.

It is shown as so in extended versions of this video clip.

After the bombing nightly of the PAD at gov house these guys in the truck

as reasonable reason to expect a bomb could be coming their way.

Rubbish.

It was PAD guards returning from occupied Don Muang airport.

No extended version of the video shows Red taxi drivers "converging" on the PAD truck exists.

Throughout the day Red Shirts have thrown stones and fired sling shots at passing PAD vehicles on the way to the airport. The PAD truck though came from the airport (opposite lane to Vibhavadi Soi 3), stopped, and the guards started shooting, jumped over the middle strip, crossed the road, kept on shooting, and held a motorcycle taxi driver with a sword over his throat.

Again a memory lapse... poor Colpiat...

Don Muang had YET to be taken over.

They were going from Gov House to Swampy.

There were some protestors out front of Don Muang, but it was not "taken over".

The sword incident was at the end of a group attack on the truck.

He who attacks first must assume the lion's share of the blame.

And note also the man held at sword point was not killed or maimed.

Eventually let go to run off with tail between legs.

If you don't think a slingshot with a ballbearing is not a deadly weapon,

then you never lived in the sticks at any time. I have cooked a rabbit dinner killed with a slingshot.

That potential for death is inherent to it's typical usage.

Edited November 22, 2009 by animatic