Once You Start To See Thai Society For What It Is

[carmine]

In this country money is number one. End of story. Anyone who can't accept this is living in cloud cookoo land. It was obvious to see since i first arrived here years ago. OK, it's become seemingly more important in recent years, but regardless it's always been the most important issue. I accept this because i happen to like this place. But, always be aware that your importance for want of a better word is basically down to how much money you have.

Flame away if you like, or accept this and you'll focus on the many nice aspects of living here of which there are many

Edited December 12, 2009 by carmine

[JR Texas]

of this due to the negative influence of Mr. T. who stirred up nationalism coupled with xenophobia,

Yes, it was lucky PAD-democrats came along to stop the Nationlism. thank god for the Coup and that we now live in a proper democracy. I love Abhisit.

Precisely where did you read in my post that the new guy is better than the old guy?

Same old stuff to me..........the more things change the more they stay the same. Different suit.........but pretty much the same. The power structure remains intact. The rules of the game are structured to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

Thailand, like virtually every country on the planet now, needs a new set of political leaders with a new vision that can make the quality of life better for all people--rich, middle class, and particularly the poor.

[sanook2me]

OP your post reads like your experience of Thailand is as a 2 week millionaire sexpat in Pattaya or similar..

Am i wrong in my assumption that you are basing your opinions on your experiences from poor farmers daughters and drunken sexpats...

Can you clarify for me where your personal experiences have come from that makes you see Thai society for what it is......! whatever that maybe...

[sanook2me]

There is nothing. There's no philosphy,

You need to look up the TV poster known as Heng and read some of his posts...

[phetaroi]

Thai culture lacks depth. It's entirely superficial. That's a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing to not have to bother with the prefabricated mind control crap in the West, simply have fun, eat, drink, fornicate, but it's also a curse when any attempt at a deaper understanding is pointlesss. There is nothing. There's no philosphy, no books, no cinema, no music, no alternative culture.

These things for me, make Thailand a good enough base for the time being, but I will never consider raising a family here.

Perhaps it's you who lack depth since you are spending time simply (as you put it) having fun, eating, drinking, and fornicating.

In terms of historical writing, little survived 1767.

In terms of cinema. There are lots of Thai movies. There's a whole world of Thai music...I listen to it daily...everything from Thai rock to Thai classical.

[phetaroi]

In this country money is number one. End of story. Anyone who can't accept this is living in cloud cookoo land. It was obvious to see since i first arrived here years ago. OK, it's become seemingly more important in recent years, but regardless it's always been the most important issue. I accept this because i happen to like this place. But, always be aware that your importance for want of a better word is basically down to how much money you have.

...

I can't imagine which western country you are from where money is not number 1.

[Pakboong]

My generation of Americans ruined the most prosperous and resource rich country in the world so it is with this admission that I choose not to judge others. I would however like to know if this thread is about the 50 or so million aboriginal underclass who have no money or power, or is it about the 14 or so million who have colonized them without their knowledge and control the entire country?

It matters a bunch. These two categories of people cannot be lumped together. You will likely be welcome in one group but not in the other regardless of your qualifications. One group is stumbling around in the dark and the other group is devoting all its energy to maintaining exclusive membership to their club. The latter group works harder to keep yours out than it does in keeping its own in. The former group, doesn't care.

[carmine]

In this country money is number one. End of story. Anyone who can't accept this is living in cloud cookoo land. It was obvious to see since i first arrived here years ago. OK, it's become seemingly more important in recent years, but regardless it's always been the most important issue. I accept this because i happen to like this place. But, always be aware that your importance for want of a better word is basically down to how much money you have.

...

I can't imagine which western country you are from where money is not number 1.

Kop out answer....you know what i mean

[Latindancer]

any attempt at a deaper understanding is pointlesss. There is nothing. There's no philosphy, no books, no cinema, no music, no alternative culture.

....No Philosophy ? You are living in a Buddhist country, and Buddhist philosophy pre-dates Christianity.

.....No Books ? Do you EVER visit bookshops ?

.....No cinema ? Thai films are simply fewer than in the West, probably because Thai people are mostly concerned with surviving day to day and don't have the leisure time to be really creative in film-making.

......No music ? Have you never heard Thai traditional music ?

......No alternative culture ? It's just much smaller than in the West, but it's there. Try going to Chamlong's vegetarian restaurant neat Chatuchak markets any day but Monday ( when it's closed ), and observe some of the Thai people there.

[pjclark1]

I am happy to interact with Thai ladies.

I am always polite to Thai ladyboys.

I rarely have any interaction with Thai men, we simply have nothing the other wants.

Spoken like a true sexpat......how sad.

we simply have nothing the other wants.

hmm... I wonder what that could be.....

As you seem to think you know but are clearly wrong ......

What I want is friendly conversation and company in an environment where I attempt to talk Thai and they attempt to talk English, without me footing the bill the entire time. Native English speakers are also welcome.

Rather strangely the Thai ladies and ladyboys provide this environment (once they realise I'm not going to be a customer), but the Thai men and gays don't. I seem to have accumulated a lot of bar girl 'friends' to whom I have never given money or bought drinks but who appear to be happy to sit with me and help me with my Thai reading and writing or just chat. Sometimes paying customers are ignored which s just plain wierd. I'm sure they are after something, but maybe on a more long term plan or maybe they just like to talk with a guy who has no interest in shagging them and treats them like real people (a dangerous thought for me to have).

The Thai men I encounter never give up with trying to get a free drink, play pool with them and when you inevitably lose "where is the drink you owe me for losing" and usually a bit of aggression to back it up. Result, when I play pool against a white man or Thai lady and win, I always make an excuse not to play on against a Thai guy whose name was on the board next.

If you think anyone who has a Thai gf is a 'sexpat' then I must admit to being one, I have been with the same gf for 9 months and not really considered sex with any other person. I have been to Pattaya once with my gf, only stayed for 2 days as it was just about the worst place in the world I have ever visited (IMHO). I would certainly never consider sex with anyone who had spent a significant time in the western world again, sorry the thought of all the bs that goes with that makes my flesh crawl.

I like Thailand, great place to live, much more personal freedom than the west (once you get your head round the 90 day reporting), plenty of <deleted> of all races and nationalities around, same as everywhere else in the world. Once identified I won't sit at a table with them.

Edited December 12, 2009 by pjclark1

[MrRichard2009]

Once I saw the Human Race for what it is, it never got any better ...... So if you find the truth it will probably remain that way for a long time.

[madjbs]

As you seem to think you know but are clearly wrong ......

Thats what happens when your life and social interactions revolve around bars.

It really is quite ridiculous, there is a whole other world out there you know.....

To try and negatively stereotype all Thai males as you have done is really quite pathetic and offensive. All it shows is your very narrow view and experience of Thailand and Thais, one centered around the bar scene most likely.

People that have nothing good to say about Thai men, but, rave on about the wonders of Thai women, clearly have a sole reason for being here, don't bother to try and deny otherwise.

Edited December 12, 2009 by madjbs

[camerata]

Everything I hate about western society, they are taking to with incredible enthusiasm. Are they so stupid to be duped by marketeers or are they just not very free thinking people?

If all this bad stuff emanates from the West, why criticize the Thais as stupid? The fact is, materialism is a part of human nature, but for millenia only the elite could indulge in it. It expanded with the emergence of a viable middle class (in Thailand this was not until the 1920s) and then moved down through Western society as part of government policy (see the excellent BBC 4-part documentary Century of the Self). Global corporations based in the West and Japan then pushed it all over the globe, aided by TV and then the Internet.

I don't see how Thais are "stupid" for accepting something the West embraced long ago. We can't expect them to stay frozen in time so that Western tourists can experience Olde Siam when they come here.

[pjclark1]

As you seem to think you know but are clearly wrong ......

Thats what happens when your life and social interactions revolve around bars.

It really is quite ridiculous, there is a whole other world out there you know.....

To try and negatively stereotype all Thai males as you have done is really quite pathetic and offensive. All it shows is your very narrow view and experience of Thailand and Thais, one centered around the bar scene most likely.

People that have nothing good to say about Thai men, but, rave on about the wonders of Thai women, clearly have a sole reason for being here, don't bother to try and deny otherwise.

Good job you avoid the bar scene then!

You won't have to suffer that embarrassing moment when me (and maybe my pals who have their own minds) get up and move to another table.

[Penefattore]

if you don't want to interact with Thai people why bother living in Thailand?

to interact with Thai whores

[eek]

The Thai men I encounter never give up with trying to get a free drink, play pool with them and when you inevitably lose "where is the drink you owe me for losing" and usually a bit of aggression to back it up. Result, when I play pool against a white man or Thai lady and win, I always make an excuse not to play on against a Thai guy whose name was on the board next.

Im not doubting thats your experience, but i wonder if maybe you are perceiving aggression when its meant as a joke/teasing? I also thought that it was normal for the loser in a game of pool to buy the winner a drink?

Also, regarding bar settings, im sure there are a lot of westerners that hang out in bars that dont always give a great impression of westerners, just as im sure there are a lot of Thai guys that hang out in bars that dont always give a great impression of Thai men. I think its fair not to judge any countrymen based on bar interactions.

[slapout]

eek; as the man said 'no one said life will be fair' Many a judgment is made by newcomers when they visit the local watering hole. pub, bar, dive, or whatever you want to call it. I agree the country should probably not be judged by such a small part of it, but the local community instead. Dock workers, oil field, cowboys, loggers, auto workers, military, etc, hangouts and their patrons do seem to come across the same no matter what country they are in. In my limited experience, those establishments which have pool tables where small wagers (drink/less than 10 dollar) are allowed, seem to draw a more aggressive clientele, depending, of course, on their mind set at the time.

[eek]

-snip-

Other things: sports, arts, music, science, technology, space programs, medicine, you name it... On the world stage Thailand is well behind. This is obviously no fault of any individual Thai, but is this an indication of an inferior culture? I think you'd struggle to argue otherwise.

-snip-

Behind because of funding and opportunity, but not behind because of lack of talent/ability. Lack of opportunity and funding doesnt mean an inferior culture.

Chiang Mai for example has a very strong art and music scene (including contemporary arts).

As for science and technology, well, i recently had the opportunity to attend an interview with the Assistant Dean at the faculty of Engineering at Chiang Mai University, and the University in conjunction with other Universities nationwide contribute together on some important and exciting technology. They are reliant on government funding and equipment donations. Most government funding for projects and development goes to the agricultural sector. I dont claim to be any kind of expert on this, far from it (heres where the eyeballs roll i guess), but just because i dont have statistics at my fingertips, doesnt mean i shouldnt address the idea that Thailand is an inferior culture. (and that doesnt mean i wear rose tinted glasses or i am an apologist. ).

Medicine..hmm..i think i read somewhere that Thailand was quite strong in this area?? Am i wrong?

I agree when comparing the arts and culture exposure in the west is much stronger. Would that not be because we have the luxury to develop this area?

If anyone has more understanding of this, please post and inform me. Personally i dont need or appreciate people who will just tell me to shut up because i dont know what im talking about. If you have more understanding, then educated me!

[cobra]

The Dao of Cobra

1. When the smell of open sewers over takes the smell of sandelwood

2. When what you thought was a mouse running over foot was in fact a large hissing cockroach.

3. Nobody cares, nobody is going to help you.

4. Ground hog day, over and over.

Not Westernization, but globalization.

Go now GrassHopper, for we will begin again tomorow ...

[livinthailandos]

5 pages of postings I am to wonder how many more will be added. I have a very simple question to put

1. For all of you who complain, moan, wish thailand to be something else, and always talk of leaving I simply want to know what the heck keeps you here if you dislike it so much. Seriously just pack your bags and shut the door on the way out and leave.

2. For those who complain that the thai's are only out to get your money, seriously who screwed you over. There are good and bad people everywhere. Although I guess for most of you, the only thing you see is just the bad in people.

I've been here and live here for a while and thailand has good and bad in everything, even people. I guess on my last point it doesn't suprise me though, how many narrow minded people exist here even on thaivisa.

[IanForbes]

Don't let the door hit you when you leave.

[ableguy]

Found the place for you North Korea, no materialism there,

[Maizefarmer]

This however is close to been an exception ....... Ruperts, your comments may well reflect your experieince and perception of Thailand and it's people, but after 20 years of living here ful time (and that doesnt include a large part of my childhood spent growing up in Thailand), I can assure you my friend that that is all it is i.e. your experience and perception - and far from reality it certainly is.

Theres this perception amongst many (some?) ex-pat visitors/short term stayers and repeat visitors that Thai's are inferior, that their ways are not as good/refined/sophisticated or developed as Caucasians or Westerners. This attitude is more a reflection of the prejudice and sense of superiority those individuals have of themselves and of their Western culture. It is ignorance on a grand scale.

Interesting post, Maizefarmer, and I must say that I have been suprised by the lack of apologists in this thread, so it is nice to see someone defending the Kingdom.

I do take exception to your assumption that I believe Thai's to be 'inferior', because I certainly don't. I treat people as individuals as I would expect to be treated in return.

But is their culture inferior?

At 2.30am it's difficult to think of any set criteria by which this can be measured. But a few things that instantly come to mind are the nationalistic attitude - not allowing foreigners to buy land, this is racism, however you package it, and by western standards is very backwards. Corruption at every level. Talking about the UK Great Expenses Scandal is very 2009, but does it really compare to a persons ability to commit murder and then buy themselves out of jail? I don't think so. Not even close.

Other things: sports, arts, music, science, technology, space programs, medicine, you name it... On the world stage Thailand is well behind. This is obviously no fault of any individual Thai, but is this an indication of an inferior culture? I think you'd struggle to argue otherwise.

I would like to make it clear again that it is not so much the people I dislike but the culture and more specifically where it is headed.

Perhaps you have been in Thailand too long, MF, and haven't been to the west to see the destruction of society that has been a direct result of our culture. Fortunately, there are increasingly large waves of well-aimed discontent spreading through the west which should pave the way for actual change. I see Thailand adopting our self destructive ways with such gusto, that my worry is that they won't see the problems beginning, maybe they won't care, mai pen rai, and even if they do, it might be too late. Unlike you, I've seen it once already, and in a country which I could so easily like so much, it hurts to see it happening again.

Ruperts

The rule preventing foreigners from purchasing land is not racist – for a start it’s legislation that applies to ex-pat Westerners as much as it applies to South Koreans or Japanese as it applies to ethnic Thai’s who hold foreign passports!! …… and it’s not exclusively Thai either, other Asian countries have the same or very similar legislation.

It is primarily an economic policy to protect national land values from been distorted through the comparatively stronger buying power of nationals and companies from many Western/European and certain other Asian countries.

Look what has happened in Cambodia recently - when a certain Mid-East state organization tried to purchase land there – it distorted regional land prices so much so that locals, who through their comparatively waeker financial standing found themselves priced out of their own national land markets!

That is why Thailand (and other Asian countries) have restrictions on foreigners owning land, and as said, it’s a policy that applies equally to ethnic Thai’s with foreign nationality as it applies to Westeners, Koreans, Japanese and other foreign nationals..

Your comments:

“Other things: sports, arts, music, science, technology, space programs, medicine, you name it... On the world stage Thailand is well behind. This is obviously no fault of any individual Thai, but is this an indication of an inferior culture? I think you'd struggle to argue otherwise……”

do not single Thailand out at all – they are characteristics that you could say of 101 other countries around the world.

These are characteristics in many ways the preserve of wealthy 1st world nations – Western Europe or the USA – and in many respects like your comments regards land ownership, revolve around the comparative financial & economic status of the West versus Asia – and there is nothing in them that is exclusively Thai.

Your comments regards the legal system are though a point I agree with - Thailand has a shocking legal track record, and a police force that is severly lacking in leadership and integrity.

Lastly, I am not an apologist for Thai's or Thailand - I am all to aware of the problems and failings in this country: from it's corrupt police to it's abuse of human rights, to it's bent judiciary as mentioned earlier, to it's chaotic politics and nepotism ...... the place is far from perfect, but little of what you have highlighted is in any way "Thai" - it is charcteristic of many Asian countries.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Maizefarmer

[fletchsmile]

I've lived in Thailand 20 years and have always had contact with "locals". Frankly, if you don't want to interact with Thai people why bother living in Thailand?

Weather, food, easy to live an affordable comfortable lifestyle, central location in SE Asia for getting about, some great expat friends and expat communities would be among my top reasons...

That said I've no objection to interacting with Thai people either...

[Birdman]

I've lived in Thailand 20 years and have always had contact with "locals". Frankly, if you don't want to interact with Thai people why bother living in Thailand?

Why not ask the Indians in Thailand about that?

Actually not interact or not want to interact with locals is not only what many millions of people do in almost every country worldwide, but also what locals with former foreign backgrounds are doing. Strange world.

[mahtin]

You need to look up the TV poster known as Heng and read some of his posts...

Bawn in da USA?

[phetaroi]

In this country money is number one. End of story. Anyone who can't accept this is living in cloud cookoo land. It was obvious to see since i first arrived here years ago. OK, it's become seemingly more important in recent years, but regardless it's always been the most important issue. I accept this because i happen to like this place. But, always be aware that your importance for want of a better word is basically down to how much money you have.

...

I can't imagine which western country you are from where money is not number 1.

Kop out answer....you know what i mean

If you come from a background where you know what being a "have not" is, then I think there may be even more of a tendency to value "stuff" when you suddenly can. The thinking on the part of some of the Thais I know is very similar to the Depression thinking of my grandparents -- never waste a thing, never throw anything away, eat food even when you hate it. So now the Thai middle class is growing. Why wouldn't they want to "graduate" to having more possessions. Seems like human nature to me.

[phetaroi]

As you seem to think you know but are clearly wrong ......

What I want is friendly conversation and company in an environment where I attempt to talk Thai and they attempt to talk English, without me footing the bill the entire time. Native English speakers are also welcome.

Rather strangely the Thai ladies and ladyboys provide this environment (once they realise I'm not going to be a customer), but the Thai men and gays don't. I seem to have accumulated a lot of bar girl 'friends' to whom I have never given money or bought drinks but who appear to be happy to sit with me and help me with my Thai reading and writing or just chat. Sometimes paying customers are ignored which s just plain wierd. I'm sure they are after something, but maybe on a more long term plan or maybe they just like to talk with a guy who has no interest in shagging them and treats them like real people (a dangerous thought for me to have).

The Thai men I encounter never give up with trying to get a free drink, play pool with them and when you inevitably lose "where is the drink you owe me for losing" and usually a bit of aggression to back it up. Result, when I play pool against a white man or Thai lady and win, I always make an excuse not to play on against a Thai guy whose name was on the board next.

If you think anyone who has a Thai gf is a 'sexpat' then I must admit to being one, I have been with the same gf for 9 months and not really considered sex with any other person. I have been to Pattaya once with my gf, only stayed for 2 days as it was just about the worst place in the world I have ever visited (IMHO). I would certainly never consider sex with anyone who had spent a significant time in the western world again, sorry the thought of all the bs that goes with that makes my flesh crawl.

I like Thailand, great place to live, much more personal freedom than the west (once you get your head round the 90 day reporting), plenty of <deleted> of all races and nationalities around, same as everywhere else in the world. Once identified I won't sit at a table with them.

I've never had much respect for people who spend any significant amount of time hanging around bars. I don't see that type having a very fulfilling family life...and in fact seen it ruin plenty of families...including my father's and grandfather's. To each his own. Hang where you like...you have very right to do so. But don't expect many of us to be very impressed with the Thai experience you are having.

[phetaroi]

I don't see how Thais are "stupid" for accepting something the West embraced long ago. We can't expect them to stay frozen in time so that Western tourists can experience Olde Siam when they come here.

Some can expect them to stay frozen in time. They want Thailand and Thai people to be like a museum where they visit.

[mahtin]

Seems like human nature to me.

7 deadly sins is human nature

http://pointandclickgames.blogspot.com/200...eadly-sins.html

The first comment I found entertaining.

P.S. Who remembers Raquel Welch as Lust?

Edited December 12, 2009 by mahtin