Married Single With Kids In Thailand...

[Loke]

Hi there,

I'm a 42-years "young" early retired and wheelchair-using Dane married to a wonderful Thai on our 9th year now. We used to live in Denmark, but are now currently trying out "living" in Thailand. We live in Khon Kaen with five children (aged 3, 3, 6, 14 and 15) and we are all carrying Danish passports only - that is of cause except from my wife who carries a Thai-passport. We all entered the Kingdom together this September 23. and we did this on Non-Immigration "O" multiple entry visas (expiring 2nd of September 2010). My wife is mother only to the three youngest of the five children, - the two eldest are from a previous marriage.

However, late in October my wife unfortunately had to urgently fly to Denmark. She was called back due to some complications in her work related injury-case (injury occured in Denmark) that demanded her immediate presence. She will return to Thailand again in January, but then will all the 90-day stamps - that the kids and I got on our entry to the Kingdom - be expired (they expire December 23th to be exact).

Prior to my wifes departure we have had some local government-office here in Khon Kaen issue us a certificate confirming, that the three youngest children are indeed children of a thai citizen. We also have had the Danish birth-certificates of all those three children (aged 3, 3 and 6) legalised in the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs (after first being legalised in the Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and then the Danish Embassy in Bangkok). We are now told, that we also need the birth-certificates issued in a "Thai-version" for them to be used both for proper houseregistering, and for applying for Thai passport for them. - And this "thai version" can only be issued at the Thai Embassy in Denmark.

As said, we do live in Khon Kaen and we have just been to the new immigration-office here today. The immigration-officers said, that I and the two eldest children do have to make a "visa-run" to Laos, and we'd get a new 90-days visa-stamp on reentry to the Kingdom. But, the three youngest children could "overstay" without any problems whatsoever, this "obviously" as they are children of a Thai citizen (who'll rejoin the family in a month or so).

Recently I had the Danish Embassy certify my monthly regular income (pension exceeding 800kB/year), if this detail matters.

I've tried to explan our cirumstances here above, and now I'll try to sum up my questions, and hopefully someone experienced or with the right knowledge will read this, and will be able and so kind to guide us through this:

Visarun to Laos

1. Can the three young children really "overstay" without any problems - or will they have to go to Visa-running to Laos with their two elder siblings and myself?

2. Will we (only) have to pay 6x 1.500B in "Visa-to-Laos-on-arrival"-fees?

3. Can we go all the way into Laos with the car of my (thai) brother-in-law, who wont be accompanying us due to all the seats are already occupied (only a five-seater and six of us are already going)?

4. Will we have to make visaruns every 90 days for the next five years, until the two eldest children and myself can apply for the permanent residence-permit?

5. Will it change anything for the two eldest, if my wife adopts them? (First possible when they turn 18 due to resistance from their biological mother). I've heard, that they may apply for thai-passports being adopted, but they'll then have to choose their nationality (no dual citizen-ships allowed!), and they'll have a duty to serve in the thai army for two years.

Thai birthcertificates/passports etc.

6. Can these "thai versions" of the legalised birth-certificates be issued here in Thailand (perhaps in Khon Kaen or Bangkok)?

7. Will the three youngest be able to have dual citizenships until their age of 18, and what happens if they choose to keep their Danish citizenships?

Divorce (May it never happen! - But so I've obviously said before...)

8. Will my childrens thai-passports give me continued possibilities to extend my Non-immigration type "O" visa on yearly basis for family-reasons. (Me being their father, and they are in Thailand)? And will a divorce have any affect on a permanent residence permit (if I get one after 5 years)?

- anyone?

PS and might be a bit off-topic: I'm repeatedly told, that it is not WHAT you know in Thailand, it is WHO you know?! This as the entire system of this country is mostly based on guarantees from superiors. I do have some "three-star" Thai officials, that have offered and could vouch for me if in any ways helpful. Just like some of the Danish officials treat Thais in Denmark - then... Some (most) Thai officials are extremely polite, serviceminded and most helpful - and others (a few) seems to be well over-their-head, and couldn't give a flying fart for anyone or anything, least of all a farang, and with a very fast "mai die" on their tight lips... - I've even been asked more than once to take my wheelchair, and my five children, and go to the Danish Embassy in Bangkok, just to have them "certify" - by stamp - that I indeed am the person of my passport!? The local amphur refused to issue me a "Yellow-book" due to - hold on - first; they couldn't use their computers because it was election-time, and then: that the signing officer weren't at the office for weeks, and last: they upright refused due to the reason, that they now had had "only" two months to issue my the book, and now my visa-stamp is nearly expired... And BTW, nevertheless my daughter had been called in early and there did sign some new forms, then they anyways forgot entirely about her...

Never have I been asked for tea-money (in these matters) or even been hinted in that direction...

Is this just TiT as usual - or am I really out of luck; perhaps jinxed by some ghost of bureaucracy??

NB: Please excuse me my sorry movie-English, the really bad spelling and the even worse grammar, - this as English is not my native tounge.

Best regards,

Jan

[thaiphoon]

You have many questions, but looking at the immediate visa issues there are 3 separate areas to be addressed:

1) Your 3 youngest kids

2) You

3) Your 2 eldest kids

(1) It would have been best to have obtained Thai passports for your youngest kids in Denmark before leaving, and used those for entry into the Kingdom. As they were born in Denmark the birth certificate would have to be issued by the Thai embassy in Denmark to support Thai passport application. As it is, they are here as 'foreigners' having used Danish passports and are subject to the same immigration rules as you. But children under the age of 14 are not charged overstay, so there is no need to worry about them or how long they stay at this point in time. They do not need to do border runs.

(2) The best solution for you would be to apply for 12 month extension of stay on basis of marriage to Thai national. Requirements being 400k in Thai bank for 2 months prior to first application (3 months for renewals) or 40k/month income (can be from abroad). In the case of income from abroad you will need to obtain an income letter from your embassy. If using the bank balance option you will need a letter from bank confirming the account balance and copies of bank book. Plus a few other papers.

Given that your wife is abroad until January, and your permission to stay expires on 23rd December, you cannot apply for extension of stay based on marriage before expiry of your current permission to stay as your wife is required to go to immigration with you for interview. You will therefore have to do a border run before 23rd December which will give you a new 90 day permission to stay on entry. During the last 30 days of your new permission to stay you can apply for your extension of stay when your papers are ready.

You cannot apply for extension of stay based on retirement (one financial option being 800k in the bank) as your age is under 50.

(3) Regarding your 2 eldest kids, they will have to make a border run with you before 23rd December to obtain a new 90 day permission to stay too. Then when your own extension of stay is in place your kids can apply for their own 12 month extensions of stay as your dependants during the last 30 days of their permission to stay (piggybacking your own extension).

When on extension of stay there is no need to do 90 day border runs but need to report address to immigration every 90 days. Most immigration offices will accept notification by post.

To apply for permanent residency you would need 3 years of tax receipts here in Thailand. More information can be found in this thread.

[TerryLH]

1. Can the three young children really "overstay" without any problems - or will they have to go to Visa-running to Laos with their two elder siblings and myself?

I believe they'll be ok not doing visa runs.

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2. Will we (only) have to pay 6x 1.500B in "Visa-to-Laos-on-arrival"-fees?

It may not even be that much. There is a Laos Consulate in Khon Kaen that will issue you visas.

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4. Will we have to make visaruns every 90 days for the next five years, until the two eldest children and myself can apply for the permanent residence-permit?

Not unless you want to. During the last 30 days of any 90 day period, apply at KK immigration for a one year extension. You would need the letter from your embassy saying you have income of 40k a month. Your two kids can be coat-tailed onto your visa extension. Ask immigration how that will work. That might end when they turn 18.

Unless you plan on working here and paying taxes, you won't be eligible for permanent residency. You'll have to do 1 year extensions each year.

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5. Will it change anything for the two eldest, if my wife adopts them? (First possible when they turn 18 due to resistance from their biological mother). I've heard, that they may apply for thai-passports being adopted, but they'll then have to choose their nationality (no dual citizen-ships allowed!), and they'll have a duty to serve in the thai army for two years.

I doubt that your wife would be able to adopt adults. I think when they turn 18 they may have to qualify for visas on their own.

Does your country allow dual citizenship? Thailand does. If yours doesn't, it will affect the younger three kids,not the older two.

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Thai birthcertificates/passports etc.

6. Can these "thai versions" of the legalised birth-certificates be issued here in Thailand (perhaps in Khon Kaen or Bangkok)?

As far as I know, they cannot. Why can't your wife do that before she returns to Thailand? I don't think the kids have to be there. Once that is done you can get their passports here in Khon Kaen.

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7. Will the three youngest be able to have dual citizenships until their age of 18, and what happens if they choose to keep their Danish citizenships?

Dual citizenship is allowed here. From the Thai side of things, no choice is needed, they can keep both.

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Divorce (May it never happen! - But so I've obviously said before...)

8. Will my childrens thai-passports give me continued possibilities to extend my Non-immigration type "O" visa on yearly basis for family-reasons. (Me being their father, and they are in Thailand)? And will a divorce have any affect on a permanent residence permit (if I get one after 5 years)?

If you choose to do an extension based on being married, than a divorce would matter, but then you could change to using your childrens Thai citizenship. Lots of extra paperwork for the extension based on marriage, but it's not an unreasonable amount.

I'm sending you a PM with another web sites that will be of interest/benefit to you.

Good luck with all this.

Terry

[Loke]

Thank you for your swift and very constructive reply, and please do allow me to ask you a few follow-ups:

But children under the age of 14 are not charged overstay ... They do not need to do border runs.

Great info indeed!! Much less fuzz and hazzle being able to leave the youngest with granny, and then go on this unavoidable visarun with the two eldest only... )

I'll also go for the best options (second and third) you've mentioned, for which I do seem to qualify. This as I've just have had the Danish Embassy issuing me an income-letter showing more than 84.000B in regular monthly income.

To apply for permanent residency you would need 3 years of tax receipts here in Thailand.

I've read the great thread you've pointed me to, once again. But, work-permits are (or should be?) irrelevant in my case, and I'm not (able/allowed to) pay tax in Thailand and therefore cannot ever produce Thai tax-reciepts. My pension are (income)taxed in Denmark - all according to some agreement between Denmark and Thailand I believe.

Isn't it correct, that I can only apply for a PR after 5 years of consecutive 1-years visa-extensions, and that the documents required would be far less - having a regular state-funded pension - than if I were (able to be) working for a living? I mean, my income is as sure and steady as such comes...

Best regards,

Jan

[Loke]

There is a Laos Consulate in Khon Kaen that will issue you visas.

Great, I'll check the Consulate out as soon as possible!

T> During the last 30 days of any 90 day period, apply at KK immigration for a one year extension.

I'll apply for the extension, but I believe my wife are required to be present, so it will have to be next time.

T> Your two kids can be coat-tailed onto your visa extension. Ask immigration how that will work. That might end when they turn 18.

I'm told the piggy-bagging will end, but then they will be able to apply on non-imm visas themselves, either due to work or to attending school... Right?

T> Unless you plan on working here and paying taxes, you won't be eligible for permanent residency. You'll have to do 1 year extensions each year.

So even if I do not take work from Thais, and I do provide >1MB/year import of hard western currency, then I won't be able to get a PR - or even citizenship?? Isn't there some kind of possibilities for longer visas then? Perhaps in connection with a retirement-visa after I've turned 50 - which also, I'm told, would solves the Thai-family requirements once and for all, right?

T> I doubt that your wife would be able to adopt adults.

I can see why adoptions at first glance could seem unneccesary - even ridicoulus. However it is quite necessary, very sane - even common practice, and indeed possible everywhere that I do know of. Just think of my childrens right to enherit property and so on.

T> As far as I know, they cannot (have thai birth-certificates issued in Thailand). Why can't your wife do that before she returns to Thailand?

My wife might not have the time to have it done before returning here. I'll recieve the legalised certificates next week, then have them send to my wife with signed copies of my passport, and then she'll have to go all across country in Denmark, and there meet up personally at the Thai Embassy in Copenhagen, and then wait for the unknown period of issuing - Chrismas and New Year also taken into consideration.

T> I don't think the kids have to be there. Once that is done you can get their passports here in Khon Kaen.

We can only have the passports done in Thailand, as they require the childrens fingerprints. But as the Danish birth-certificates are legalised by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs, thus they should already be legal for use in Thailand. Perhaps we can have the Thai versions done in Denmark by mail, or at some office (even local) here in Thailand?!?

T> Dual citizenship is allowed here. From the Thai side of things, no choice is needed, they can keep both.

I was told quite the opposite at some government office here in Thailand: - That the kids can keep dual citizenship UNTIL they turn 18, and then have to make a choice!

If you choose to do an extension based on being married, than a divorce would matter

Really??

T> I'm sending you a PM with another web sites that will be of interest/benefit to you. Good luck with all this.

Thanks a lot for your reply, your best wishes and for the PM'ed link. I knew of the site already, but thank you anyways.

May I presume that you're living in Khon Kaen as well?

Best regards,

Jan

[Mario2008]

Given your children are Thai and you have a Thai wife, there is another option you can try. Being married to a Thai citizen or having Thai children normaly allows you to extend your stay for 60 days, for 1,900 baht per person. (You will also need a pasphoto)

By the time the extension runs out, your wife will be back and you can all apply for a 1 year extension as described by Thaiphoon.

I must point out that this 60 day extension is not 100% sure in your case, as your wife is not staying here and the children are not yet registered as Thai. But you have a good chance they will grant it, especialy if your wife wrtites a note (email) explaining the situation. It might be worth trying.

For the Thai birth certificate your wife can apply for it, but might need your signature etc. Have her check with the embassy. many embassies have forms online, and you might be able to print it out, sign it and send it to your wife.

[lopburi3]

He is not likely to be able to obtain the 60 day extension without the wife present - it is to visit wife and she is not here. A very long short indeed on that one I fear.

Indeed wife should contact Embassy and try to obtain paperwork for children.

Dual citizenship is not a problem for Thailand. Male children have to register for military service (not at all sure they will have to serve) but they do not have to renounce or chose citizenship - but have the chance to do so if they wish. Thai government officials are very often wrong on dual citizenship issues as what is politically desired and law are often not the same.

[Mario2008]

He is not likely to be able to obtain the 60 day extension without the wife present - it is to visit wife and she is not here. A very long short indeed on that one I fear.

The Thai wife no, but maybe the Thai children. The birth certificate should show the youngest ones are Thai, although have not been registered as such. But agree, it would be luck if they will issue.

[thaiphoon]

He is not likely to be able to obtain the 60 day extension without the wife present - it is to visit wife and she is not here. A very long short indeed on that one I fear.

The Thai wife no, but maybe the Thai children. The birth certificate should show the youngest ones are Thai, although have not been registered as such. But agree, it would be luck if they will issue.

Did not cover this as believe very unlikely to obtain 60 day extension with Thai wife abroad. Even if given, it would not help his two eldest kids who would still to make a border run to extend their own permissions to stay.