All-out Attempt By Red Shirts To Bring Down Government

[animatic]

Its obvious the vast majority of Thais support the deportations. Otherwise, where is the protest from Thais? None really visible.

It is a hold over symptom of the ultra-nationalist, 'us against all others',

especially neighbors and those who don't conform to 'Thai cultiuralways 100%',

that is inbred into them in the school system and thus long force fed to the Tha culture.

It was a logical idea back when they tried to create a 'Thai Land' from a 'cross-roads of cultures',

but now it is just a racisist anti-minority anachronism and group mental illness that is so endemic

they don't even REALIZE it is a problem.

Sadly the whole culture has been raised for generations believing this bile,

till it has completely forgotten this is a bad thing.

It's not just the Hmong but ANY non-"THAI" that is suspect from

Aka through English, past French and Spanish on to Zanzibarians et al.

Sure it built a nation, but it also built in a repugnant racism into that nation.

Most pathetically, it's a racism directed at their closest cousins, no less.

Can't really understand this reply; but I see no source for saying that the Thais support Hmong deportation. Posting a comment does not make it factual. Seems to be an increasingly dishonest tactic on tv.

Go read some of the half dozen available books on the Thailand school systems

and how it helped build a mindset that became a nation.

The origin's of the Thai educational systems, top down mind set, and political indoctrination methods.

Then visit any basic Thai school with a Thais english speaker, or most any bilingual Thai with kids in a public school.

Or just spend a night with a half drunken Thai and mention hill tribes, Burmese or Khmers.

I have far too many times seen the later learned response about reasonableness,

over whelmed by the earlier indoctrination when guards are let down. The change can be quite shocking.

Next day back to a more world view response. Certainly not all people are like this, but too high a percentage.

I hadn't believed this from reading until I saw it first hand a few times.

There is reasons the smart even handed Thais put their kids into International schools.

One is increased education opportunities, another is escaping mindless repeated indoctrination.

You can still love your country with out it being beaten into your head.

It is like some hold over from the 50's, or even 30's.

It also inculcates a follow the leader mentality, so if your village head man is pro-Red Shirt,

then you follow the leader. Thaksin knew this and bought up the leaders with perks they

could make use of to solidify their power, and did it using national funding so all OTHERS got to pay for it.

Now he is stuck using his own money, but is still benefiting from the past largese all Thais paid for.

He wants back into control of the pot so he can make this top down control permanent in his favor.

In that regard he is little different than the classic phu yai businessman up country,

holding onto his perks as long as he can, and trading favors for allegiances and...

oh wait that sounds like the elites... oh wait again Thaksin IS an elite.

This is a battle between opposing elites; one just harnessed the power of some of the masses,

and now is trying to unleash it because he is not winning in the normal ways.

In essence Thaksin is calling in his markers. With classic feudal methods to

bring in more : Samuri, or Knights errant, or non-aligned warlords and their local forces etc.

Edited January 5, 2010 by animatic

[tomahawk]

What Asian country doesn't teach that their country is superior? I don't find Thailand to be anywhere near as racist or xenophobic as China or Japan. I suppose it depends where you live and who you know, but my personal experience is that the Thai people I know are not really anti-Hmong or pro-deportation. I am not saying they spend a lot of time talking or worrying about it, but when the subject is brought up they do not express any hateful sentiments, and in fact the hilltribe people who live where I do are treated the same as the Thais.

As for the elite war, or whatever you wish to call it, this is just one more power struggle just like has been going on for ages, long before any of us farangs got here. Is Thaksin somehow worse than every other self-serving politician? People preach democracy, and then when the people elect who they want, he is removed without any due process or whatever and some figurehead gets appointed. Thaksin was elected, and if he ran again, he would get reelected. if this is wrong, then just hold an election and prove it.

[hammered]

After PTP struggled to hold the Mahasarakham constituency in their ed heartland and after a campaign in which their opponents hardly bothered, expect a return to direct street struggle with a vengeance. They should have mullered BJT in Mahasarakham and didnt. That is going to worry Thaksin et al in electoral terms and other strategies for this side of the elite in the power struggle will be needed.

[ChiangMaiFun]

What Asian country doesn't teach that their country is superior? I don't find Thailand to be anywhere near as racist or xenophobic as China or Japan. I suppose it depends where you live and who you know, but my personal experience is that the Thai people I know are not really anti-Hmong or pro-deportation. I am not saying they spend a lot of time talking or worrying about it, but when the subject is brought up they do not express any hateful sentiments, and in fact the hilltribe people who live where I do are treated the same as the Thais.

As for the elite war, or whatever you wish to call it, this is just one more power struggle just like has been going on for ages, long before any of us farangs got here. Is Thaksin somehow worse than every other self-serving politician? People preach democracy, and then when the people elect who they want, he is removed without any due process or whatever and some figurehead gets appointed. Thaksin was elected, and if he ran again, he would get reelected. if this is wrong, then just hold an election and prove it.

Right... but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions and democracy as they believe the poor and uneducated don't deserve a vote - seems very 19th Century thinking to me!

[Jingthing]

Do Thais support the deportations? Well you would have to do a poll. However, it is very clear there is no public outcry about it so reasonable people can presume that if they don't support it, they certainly DO NOT CARE very much about it. Also, do you think Abhisit is stupid? Because if there was a mass public sentiment against deporting the Hmongs, why would he risk a backlash in public opinion against him when he knows that someday he or his party is eventually going to have to face the electorate?

Now personally, and I think I speak for most westerners, I don't like the deportations OR the mass extrajudicial murders done under Thaksin. However, Thai values are not western values.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Jingthing

[scorecard]

What Asian country doesn't teach that their country is superior? I don't find Thailand to be anywhere near as racist or xenophobic as China or Japan. I suppose it depends where you live and who you know, but my personal experience is that the Thai people I know are not really anti-Hmong or pro-deportation. I am not saying they spend a lot of time talking or worrying about it, but when the subject is brought up they do not express any hateful sentiments, and in fact the hilltribe people who live where I do are treated the same as the Thais.

As for the elite war, or whatever you wish to call it, this is just one more power struggle just like has been going on for ages, long before any of us farangs got here. Is Thaksin somehow worse than every other self-serving politician? People preach democracy, and then when the people elect who they want, he is removed without any due process or whatever and some figurehead gets appointed. Thaksin was elected, and if he ran again, he would get reelected. if this is wrong, then just hold an election and prove it.

Right... but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions and democracy as they believe the poor and uneducated don't deserve a vote - seems very 19th Century thinking to me!

Would you like to share some rationale / some supporft for your statement "....but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions and democracy as they believe the poor and uneducated don't deserve a vote ....

[animatic]

Thaksin removed himself from office by calling new elections.

He was not removed as Prime Minster by the army,

but he was removed as Acting or Caretaker Prime Minister,

and that after his side TRT was caught cheating badly,

and after his side bribed the Election Commission to side with them,

AND his side bribed other parties to contest Dem. boycotted elections.

He was removed from his "Temp Job" for cheating in a blatant and organized manner.

His party then regrouped and ran for election, and was blatantly caught cheating again.

How can a thinking person feel sorry for this fellow?

He wants free elections, but he can't run for office.

He wants to buy his way to power again, but has no legal right to what he wants.

He was convicted even while his own party controlled government.

He can't serve his time in jail, because he KNOWS more valid charges

can easily be found and two years becomes twenty if he doesn't take power back.

And no one in their right minds will give him his dubiously acquired assets back,

because he would use them to buy power and abuse his opponents again.

As he did in the past, but much worse.

No wonder an 'all out attempt' is his only choice now.

Edited January 5, 2010 by animatic

[caf]

What Asian country doesn't teach that their country is superior? I don't find Thailand to be anywhere near as racist or xenophobic as China or Japan. I suppose it depends where you live and who you know, but my personal experience is that the Thai people I know are not really anti-Hmong or pro-deportation. I am not saying they spend a lot of time talking or worrying about it, but when the subject is brought up they do not express any hateful sentiments, and in fact the hilltribe people who live where I do are treated the same as the Thais.

As for the elite war, or whatever you wish to call it, this is just one more power struggle just like has been going on for ages, long before any of us farangs got here. Is Thaksin somehow worse than every other self-serving politician? People preach democracy, and then when the people elect who they want, he is removed without any due process or whatever and some figurehead gets appointed. Thaksin was elected, and if he ran again, he would get reelected. if this is wrong, then just hold an election and prove it.

Right... but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions and democracy as they believe the poor and uneducated don't deserve a vote - seems very 19th Century thinking to me!

Would you like to share some rationale / some supporft for your statement "....but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions and democracy as they believe the poor and uneducated don't deserve a vote ....

Do you not know the history of elections in this country, Scorecard.

[wayfarer108]

Lost in all the semantics (desireably by some) is the FACT yet ANOTHER retired Army General is about to join Puea Thai,

with General Panlop planning to lead red-shirts in 'all-out' rally to topple the Thai govt.

Mr Thaksin is dusting off a legion of old 'opportunist' generals...

Why? To some it's obvious, the rest will soon see as well - before Mr Thaksin's 76 bln final court date mid-feb.

(and all this has nothing whatsoever to do with 'democracy' or 'helping the poor', PERIOD)

Happy 'NEW' year all (dejavu-year)

Am I the only one who finds it amusing, that the red-shirts are condemning (amongst others) the military-elite for being undemocratic & corrupt, while at the same time their political-wing (the PTP) is busy signing-up as many as possible ?

Precisely. Behind the scenes it's the same political forces, in different guises. The attempted shifting of power from one set of elites to another. Amazing how the Reds have brainwashed so many - including educated foreigners - not to see that. Thaksin stole from the country and he made farmers poorer, not better off. His polices pu them and their communities further into debt. Kudos for the 30-bath health plan, but the Demos have since made education free so it's not as if only Thaksin creates social welfare programs as loss leaders.

[caf]

Thaksin removed himself from office by calling new elections.

He was not removed as Prime Minster by the army,

but he was removed as Acting or Caretaker Prime Minister,

and that after his side TRT was caught cheating badly,

and after his side bribed the Election Commission to side with them,

AND his side bribed other parties to contest Dem. boycotted elections.

He was removed from his "Temp Job" for cheating in a blatant and organized manner.

His party then regrouped and ran for election, and was blatantly caught cheating again.

How can a thinking person feel sorry for this fellow?

He wants free elections, but he can't run for office.

He wants to buy his way to power again, but has no legal right to what he wants.

He was convicted even while his own party controlled government.

He can't serve his time in jail, because he KNOWS more valid charges

can easily be found and two years becomes twenty if he doesn't take power back.

And no one in their right minds will give him his dubiously acquired assets back,

because he would use them to buy power and abuse his opponents again.

As he did in the past, but much worse.

No wonder an 'all out attempt' is his only choice now.

Good post but you obviously ran out of time to comment on the election frauds of other parties; that the reasons given for the coup were not that his party cheated. Anmd you know for a fact do you that he bribed the election commission. Sounds like a lot of subjective bias to me, and I don't even likeThaksin.

[sofa]

Final call, everyone posting in this thread already knows this. Drop the stupid name calling of either groups, political parties, politicians etc. It is going to stop. Next one to use yellow shits, or any other stupid name calling is going to get a posting rights suspension because you have all been warned about this countless times but, apparently, it hasn't sunk in.

It still hasn't sunk in 3 days later

Right... but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions

[animatic]

Thaksin removed himself from office by calling new elections.

He was not removed as Prime Minster by the army,

but he was removed as Acting or Caretaker Prime Minister,

and that after his side TRT was caught cheating badly,

and after his side bribed the Election Commission to side with them,

AND his side bribed other parties to contest Dem. boycotted elections.

He was removed from his "Temp Job" for cheating in a blatant and organized manner.

His party then regrouped and ran for election, and was blatantly caught cheating again.

How can a thinking person feel sorry for this fellow?

He wants free elections, but he can't run for office.

He wants to buy his way to power again, but has no legal right to what he wants.

He was convicted even while his own party controlled government.

He can't serve his time in jail, because he KNOWS more valid charges

can easily be found and two years becomes twenty if he doesn't take power back.

And no one in their right minds will give him his dubiously acquired assets back,

because he would use them to buy power and abuse his opponents again.

As he did in the past, but much worse.

No wonder an 'all out attempt' is his only choice now.

Good post but you obviously ran out of time to comment on the election frauds of other parties; that the reasons given for the coup were not that his party cheated. And you know for a fact do you that he bribed the election commission. Sounds like a lot of subjective bias to me, and I don't even likeThaksin.

The election frauds of opposition parties were not by and condoned by the executives and so didn't cause party dissolution.

Though TRT and PPP were not the only parties forced to disband, but you know that anyway.

Banharn is no longer running his party as before, he has a puppet son for that.

And those little fringe parties went out after being TRT tools, controlled for cash by the tools in TRT.

And the election frauds of other parties had nothing to do with Thaksin being ousted as caretaker PM.

The reasons give for the coup was he was becoming a danger to the country

as essentially the SOLE governance force in the land.

No legislative, and the judiciary at that time hobbled by his actions.

As he visibly showed mental instability that even his closest such as Somkid J. commented on,

as he cut his losses and jumped ship, it became clear that Thaksin was more liability to Thailand

then perceptive leader of all Thais. And as control of Thailand's levers came to a smaller

and smaller circle around Thaksin, and his judgement became increasingly erratic,

somebody pulled the plug before things went REALLY badly.

I do not sadly think the coup was the worst possible outcome of the way things were headed.

The election commission went to jail for malfeasances in office and those malfeasances benefited TRT.

Logical inference in which direction and from what source the Pastery Boxes went.

It need not have been cash and carry or even just favors, but pressure applied,

and classic greed for perks and advancement from the credulous EC men.

I have observed objectively and then formed subjective opinions.

As most anyone does.

But you know that, you just want me to codify the obvious and work harder.

Edited January 5, 2010 by animatic

[caf]

Thaksin removed himself from office by calling new elections.

He was not removed as Prime Minster by the army,

but he was removed as Acting or Caretaker Prime Minister,

and that after his side TRT was caught cheating badly,

and after his side bribed the Election Commission to side with them,

AND his side bribed other parties to contest Dem. boycotted elections.

He was removed from his "Temp Job" for cheating in a blatant and organized manner.

His party then regrouped and ran for election, and was blatantly caught cheating again.

How can a thinking person feel sorry for this fellow?

He wants free elections, but he can't run for office.

He wants to buy his way to power again, but has no legal right to what he wants.

He was convicted even while his own party controlled government.

He can't serve his time in jail, because he KNOWS more valid charges

can easily be found and two years becomes twenty if he doesn't take power back.

And no one in their right minds will give him his dubiously acquired assets back,

because he would use them to buy power and abuse his opponents again.

As he did in the past, but much worse.

No wonder an 'all out attempt' is his only choice now.

Good post but you obviously ran out of time to comment on the election frauds of other parties; that the reasons given for the coup were not that his party cheated. And you know for a fact do you that he bribed the election commission. Sounds like a lot of subjective bias to me, and I don't even likeThaksin.

The election frauds of opposition parties were not by and condoned by the executives and so didn't cause party dissolution.

Though TRT and PPP were not the only parties forced to disband, but you know that anyway.

Banharn is no longer running his party as before, he has a puppet son for that.

And those little fringe parties went out after being TRT tools, controlled for cash by the tools in TRT.

And the election frauds of other parties had nothing to do with Thaksin being ousted as caretaker PM.

The reasons give for the coup was he was becoming a danger to the country

as essentially the SOLE governance force in the land.

No legislative, and the judiciary at that time hobbled by his actions.

As he visibly showed mental instability that even his closest such as Somkid J. commented on,

as he cut his losses and jumped ship, it became clear that Thaksin was more liability to Thailand

then perceptive leader of all Thais. And as control of Thailand's levers came to a smaller

and smaller circle around Thaksin, and his judgement became increasingly erratic,

somebody pulled the plug before things went REALLY badly.

I do not sadly think the coup was the worst possible outcome of the way things were headed.

The election commission went to jail for malfeasances in office and those malfeasances benefited TRT.

Logical inference in which direction and from what source the Pastery Boxes went.

It need not have been cash and carry or even just favors, but pressure applied,

and classic greed for perks and advancement from the credulous EC men.

I have observed objectively and then formed subjective opinions.

As most anyone does.

But you know that, you just want me to codify the obvious and work harder.

I certainly do not know that you observe objectively. In fact I think you do not.

"The reasons give for the coup was he was becoming a danger to the country

as essentially the SOLE governance force in the land.

No legislative, and the judiciary at that time hobbled by his actions."

I don't understand that comment. But anyway I thought corruption was the issue. And that it only applied to Thaksin.

"As he visibly showed mental instability" and you believe that?

"I do not sadly think the coup was the worst possible outcome of the way things were headed." I find it sad that you think coups are the way to sort out problems in the 21st century.

"Logical inference in which direction and from what source the Pastery Boxes went.

It need not have been cash and carry or even just favors, but pressure applied,

and classic greed for perks and advancement from the credulous EC men."

I want to reply to this and I would if I could understand it.

caf

[ChiangMaiFun]

Final call, everyone posting in this thread already knows this. Drop the stupid name calling of either groups, political parties, politicians etc. It is going to stop. Next one to use yellow shits, or any other stupid name calling is going to get a posting rights suspension because you have all been warned about this countless times but, apparently, it hasn't sunk in.

It still hasn't sunk in 3 days later

Right... but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions

Yellow Fellows is an insult? get a life...

[Insight]

Final call, everyone posting in this thread already knows this. Drop the stupid name calling of either groups, political parties, politicians etc. It is going to stop. Next one to use yellow shits, or any other stupid name calling is going to get a posting rights suspension because you have all been warned about this countless times but, apparently, it hasn't sunk in.

It still hasn't sunk in 3 days later

Right... but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions

Yellow Fellows is an insult? get a life...

I think Sofa his hinting at branding anybody who doesn't support Thaksin, be it PAD, Democrats, Army, Prem & Co, along with millions of regular everyday Thai folk as "yellow" is being quite simplistic and out of touch.

[Insight]

Oh please, give it a rest. The poor are the ones who got thailand into this place in the first place with their bribe taking from Taksin and their use of bombs and violence and terrorism to get into power. The poor are uneducated and unfortunately no government has helped them get an education but the yellow shirts believe that the poor because of their lack of education and high illiteracy rates are unable to understand political issues and are easily corrupted. I agree.

Can't recall any bombs, violence and terrorism from the poor during the general election of 2001 which helped Thaksin get into power.

Nope, just dosh, and lots, and lots of it.

(Not that any of it was needed, if I recall an earlier post you made on the topic.)

I'm of the opinion that even if the vote buying section of the electorate (by all parties) was taken out of the equation TRT would still have won. As I recall even the esteemed partners of this site The Nation predicted a TRT win and the Dems knew they couldn't beat a TRT coalition.

It's strange isn't it how electoral fraud wasn't pursued in trying to dissolve a party. It obviously happened. (Though I guess the Dems pockets weren't deep enough). They were all over it like a rash come last time . Was there an investigation for all the "dosh, lots and lots of it"? Nope. TRT came to power and the Dems conceded defeat.

No investigation for obvious electoral fraud. No complaints from the Dems. I dunno. Maybe certain sectors of Thai society wanted to see how much of a poodle Thaksin was going to be. They found out later that the poodle had teeth, had grown beyond their control and was quite willing to bite it's owners.

Couldn't have that could we. Especially on LOS.

Goodie; finally have time to respond.

Paragraph #1 - not convinced. This statement still begs the painfully obvious question; if they're so sure they'd get the vote without vote-buying, why buy the vote...!?! The Dems new very well they didn't have the coffers to compete and so had no option to concede. As a side note, didn't the average price of the vote rise drastically during the first TRT election win? If so, doesn't that go very much against what you're proposing?

Regarding the rest of your post, perhaps the opposition were very lethargic to react to these tactics during the election time, but since I've been here (later in 2001) I've seen the Democrats make repeated efforts in highlighting many of the irregularities with the TRT lot.

[animatic]

Thaksin removed himself from office by calling new elections.

He was not removed as Prime Minster by the army,

but he was removed as Acting or Caretaker Prime Minister,

and that after his side TRT was caught cheating badly,

and after his side bribed the Election Commission to side with them,

AND his side bribed other parties to contest Dem. boycotted elections.

He was removed from his "Temp Job" for cheating in a blatant and organized manner.

His party then regrouped and ran for election, and was blatantly caught cheating again.

How can a thinking person feel sorry for this fellow?

He wants free elections, but he can't run for office.

He wants to buy his way to power again, but has no legal right to what he wants.

He was convicted even while his own party controlled government.

He can't serve his time in jail, because he KNOWS more valid charges

can easily be found and two years becomes twenty if he doesn't take power back.

And no one in their right minds will give him his dubiously acquired assets back,

because he would use them to buy power and abuse his opponents again.

As he did in the past, but much worse.

No wonder an 'all out attempt' is his only choice now.

Good post but you obviously ran out of time to comment on the election frauds of other parties; that the reasons given for the coup were not that his party cheated. And you know for a fact do you that he bribed the election commission. Sounds like a lot of subjective bias to me, and I don't even likeThaksin.

The election frauds of opposition parties were not by and condoned by the executives and so didn't cause party dissolution.

Though TRT and PPP were not the only parties forced to disband, but you know that anyway.

Banharn is no longer running his party as before, he has a puppet son for that.

And those little fringe parties went out after being TRT tools, controlled for cash by the tools in TRT.

And the election frauds of other parties had nothing to do with Thaksin being ousted as caretaker PM.

The reasons give for the coup was he was becoming a danger to the country

as essentially the SOLE governance force in the land.

No legislative, and the judiciary at that time hobbled by his actions.

As he visibly showed mental instability that even his closest such as Somkid J. commented on,

as he cut his losses and jumped ship, it became clear that Thaksin was more liability to Thailand

then perceptive leader of all Thais. And as control of Thailand's levers came to a smaller

and smaller circle around Thaksin, and his judgement became increasingly erratic,

somebody pulled the plug before things went REALLY badly.

I do not sadly think the coup was the worst possible outcome of the way things were headed.

The election commission went to jail for malfeasances in office and those malfeasances benefited TRT.

Logical inference in which direction and from what source the Pastery Boxes went.

It need not have been cash and carry or even just favors, but pressure applied,

and classic greed for perks and advancement from the credulous EC men.

I have observed objectively and then formed subjective opinions.

As most anyone does.

But you know that, you just want me to codify the obvious and work harder.

I certainly do not know that you observe objectively. In fact I think you do not.

"The reasons give for the coup was he was becoming a danger to the country

as essentially the SOLE governance force in the land.

No legislative, and the judiciary at that time hobbled by his actions."

I don't understand that comment. But anyway I thought corruption was the issue. And that it only applied to Thaksin.

"As he visibly showed mental instability" and you believe that?

"I do not sadly think the coup was the worst possible outcome of the way things were headed." I find it sad that you think coups are the way to sort out problems in the 21st century.

"Logical inference in which direction and from what source the Pastery Boxes went.

It need not have been cash and carry or even just favors, but pressure applied,

and classic greed for perks and advancement from the credulous EC men."

I want to reply to this and I would if I could understand it.

caf

Point per point.

So where were you in early 2006?

Certainly couldn't be closely observinging the forces at play here.

I guess if you don't understand the comment, please go back

and read earlier forum observations and news from that time.

It is all out there in various press and media sources.

If you still don't understand, then I can't argue the points with you.

I know what I observed, so I will go with that.

Yes, I clearly saw instability in Thaksin in 2006,

and a similar instability was seen live on international TV

Al Jazera and especially on CNN, during Songkran last.

The pressure was to much for him.

I am sure Thais saw that even clearer than I did.

No I don't think coups are the way the world should fix it's problems,

but I think things can often be worse than what happened here in 2006.

We see it daily around the world.

If you can't reply, then don't. Not my fault.

[Dustybin]

Arn't the reds just demonstrating against the unelected government and its backers and coupmongers.

It was the yellow shirts who brought down the real government, with the unelected government backers and coupmongers help.

[way2muchcoffee]

Arn't the reds just demonstrating against the unelected government and its backers and coupmongers.

It was the yellow shirts who brought down the real government, with the unelected government backers and coupmongers help.

The yellow shirts didn't bring down any government. The military brought down a sitting caretaker PM who had no government. Following the Constitution referendum, voted on by the Thai people, the coup government stepped down and elections were held.

The MPs in government were elected by the people. The judiciary brought down the Samak government for conflict of interest corruption. The judiciary brought down the Somchai government for electoral fraud. The elected MPs then elected the Democrat Party as the leader of a coalition government, in accordance with parliamentary procedure.

All these things I believe you know already. So what exactly is your point?

Edited January 11, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[animatic]

Actually Samak fell on his own, not his government per se,

and Somchai picked up the pieces and did a small reshuffle

and continued with the PPP government of Samak.

Then that government, because of the PPP leadership's getting

caught in the election cheating, were then brought down by the courts.

it is a debatable point if the yellow shirts speed up arriving

at the court decision by a week or so earlier or not.

But the action to dissolve PPP was the court's not Yellows.

[Dustybin]

surely its more a case of fighting to restore democracy, not bring down a government.

especially as the term "government" in this instance is used , wheras military junta dictatorship is more correct.

How can democratic government be born from the barrel of a gun?

[Siripon]

surely its more a case of fighting to restore democracy, not bring down a government.

especially as the term "government" in this instance is used , wheras military junta dictatorship is more correct.

How can democratic government be born from the barrel of a gun?

Every MP in Parliament today came from the last election.

A few switched parties when they realised the quality and potential of the Democrat politicians compared to the riff raff of Chalerm, etc.

Unethical for their constituents but a whole lot better for Thailand as a whole.

[caf]

Thaksin removed himself from office by calling new elections.

He was not removed as Prime Minster by the army,

but he was removed as Acting or Caretaker Prime Minister,

and that after his side TRT was caught cheating badly,

and after his side bribed the Election Commission to side with them,

AND his side bribed other parties to contest Dem. boycotted elections.

He was removed from his "Temp Job" for cheating in a blatant and organized manner.

His party then regrouped and ran for election, and was blatantly caught cheating again.

How can a thinking person feel sorry for this fellow?

He wants free elections, but he can't run for office.

He wants to buy his way to power again, but has no legal right to what he wants.

He was convicted even while his own party controlled government.

He can't serve his time in jail, because he KNOWS more valid charges

can easily be found and two years becomes twenty if he doesn't take power back.

And no one in their right minds will give him his dubiously acquired assets back,

because he would use them to buy power and abuse his opponents again.

As he did in the past, but much worse.

No wonder an 'all out attempt' is his only choice now.

For someone who is always pushing Anti-thaksin comments, you seem to be privy to a lot of information about his strategies. I think you are dreaming or speculating. I don't think you have this inside information at all. //deleted by Admin//

[Ricardo]

surely its more a case of fighting to restore democracy, not bring down a government.

especially as the term "government" in this instance is used , wheras military junta dictatorship is more correct.

How can democratic government be born from the barrel of a gun?

You seem to be unaware that the military-appointed junta, to which you refer, handed back power to an elected-government a couple of years ago, and that the current democratic government is the third to run things, since the 'barrel of a gun' withdrew ?

[Ricardo]

Right... but the Yellow Fellows are afraid of elctions and democracy as they believe the poor and uneducated don't deserve a vote - seems very 19th Century thinking to me!

I believe you'll find that the farmers-vote-for-a-farmer-MP policy, to which you refer, was merely a short-lived platform-proposal at a PAD-rally, and might therefore only be a possible part of the New Politics Party's platform, but that the larger/more-important Democrat-Party, who lead the current government-coalition, have never endorsed or agreed with it, let alone adopted the policy.

The suggestion was never that 'the poor and uneducated don't deserve a vote', as I recall, but more an idea that, if specific sectors of the workforce were able to vote for specific representatives, then there might at least be a few direct-MPs representing poor-farmers or teachers or whatever. Something which the sainted Thaksin notably failed to achieve, while in power, but then "democracy is not my aim", as he stated more-honestly at-the-time, when he had an overall majority and didn't care at all about 'true democracy' or justice.

While probably unworkable, and certainly liable to be accidentally/deliberately misinterpreted by most other politicians, the PAD suggestion might at least have got some direct-representation in Parliament for the poor. Most other parties seem to have no idea at all, for improving their representation, and generally blow hot-and-cold on reform. Sadly.

[animatic]

....How can a thinking person feel sorry for this fellow?

He wants free elections, but he can't run for office.

He wants to buy his way to power again, but has no legal right to what he wants.

He was convicted even while his own party controlled government.

He can't serve his time in jail, because he KNOWS more valid charges

can easily be found and two years becomes twenty if he doesn't take power back.

And no one in their right minds will give him his dubiously acquired assets back,

because he would use them to buy power and abuse his opponents again.

As he did in the past, but much worse....

For someone who is always pushing Anti-thaksin comments, you seem to be privy to a lot of information about his strategies. I think you are dreaming or speculating. I don't think you have this inside information at all. //deleted by Admin//

No, I am not, nor need to be, 'privy, to his planning,

you can use his past actions and his recent public announcements as a baseline to what he will do in future.

This is coming from things out of his own mouth, or those of his dodgy spokes people.

If one doesn't look at the past and extrapolate what would likely happen in the future, one is driving blindly.

Glad I missed the flame, but it gives some reason to think the rest of this

critical opposing commentary is more emotional/y than logically drive.

[animatic]

surely its more a case of fighting to restore democracy, not bring down a government.

especially as the term "government" in this instance is used , wheras military junta dictatorship is more correct.

How can democratic government be born from the barrel of a gun?

Every MP in Parliament today came from the last election.

A few switched parties when they realised the quality and potential of the Democrat politicians compared to the riff raff of Chalerm, etc.

Unethical for their constituents but a whole lot better for Thailand as a whole.

"Every MP in Parliament today came from the last election."

Spot on Siripon.

The people democratically decided WHO will decide on the governing coalition.

The point of having people not have to dissolve the legislature ever time a coalition government fails

is so that those elected MP's can give some sort of continuity to the leadership of the country.

When the MP's fail to create a workable coalition, then that's time to dissolve the legislative.

That is where we are at the moment.

....Democrat politicians compared to the riff raff of Chalerm, etc....

The lack of any real management talent or basic functionality in PTP ranks

makes it even more important to keep them out of office,

via legitimate legislative methods as time goes on.

Every few days PTP lets Jatuporn and a few others represent them,

and this makes this point even bigger.

[jayboy]

The people democratically decided WHO will decide on the governing coalition.

The point of having people not have to dissolve the legislature ever time a coalition government fails

is so that those elected MP's can give some sort of continuity to the leadership of the country.

When the MP's fail to create a workable coalition, then that's time to dissolve the legislative.

That is where we are at the moment.

This is partly true and the government can survive as long as it can command a majority.However it's not the whole story, particularly given the murky historic process which brought the Dems to a leading position, and as time goes on it becomes increasingly obvious that Abhisit needs a popular mandate through fairly conducted elections.This isn't something that needs to take place tomorrow but certainly within the next year or so.The danger is that like Gordon Brown in the UK Abhisit will become damaged goods.There are those on this forum who insist a popular mandate isn't important.They are dead wrong.

[animatic]

Murky certainly can be equally applied to Thaksin's coalition for TRT,

and the certainty that money politics was no less in force then than now.

Thaksin never got into office without army backing either.

When he lost that backing then things went bad.

The mandate of the people was towards each individual MP, of which

all segments of Thailand have elected representation at the moment.

The mandate essentially states that the MP's make the best decision

about who is the government based on facts at the time of voting.

And secondarily about voting on or modifying legislation passed to them for approval

by which ever government those same MP's voted to install.

[Davidusaf99]

I think that the longer Abhisit stays in power, the better Thailand will be. His government has a lot of people trying to do good work. Korn's idea of property and land tax is the best idea out there, for giving people a leg up and reigning in income disparity.