ท่าทาง, มาด, อาการ, And ลักษณะ

[aitch]

Hello,

in the sentence:

ท่าทางวางโต มาดเนี้ยบ และอาการขี้ตื่นที่ติดตัวมาแต่กำเนิดน่ะไม่ใช่ลักษณะของเจ้าหมาตัวนี้เลย

are any of the words

ท่าทาง, มาด, อาการ, and ลักษณะ

interchangeable ?

[anchan42]

ท่าทางวางโต Ok

มาดวางโต Also ok

อาการวางโต a tiny bit unusual but not unheard of. อาการ Usually used with problematic or undesirable feeling or behaviour.

ลักษณะวางโต Sounds ok but a bit formal.

มาดเนี้ยบ OK

ท่าทางเนี้ยบ OK

อาการเนี้ยบ Sound strange.

ลักษณะเนี้ยบ Again, a tiny bit unusual but not unheard of

อาการขี้ตื่น ok

ท่าทางขี้ตื่น ok

มาดขี้ตื่น Sounds strange. มาด is used with positive traits

ลักษณะขี้ตื่น sound formal.

Hope it helps!!

[tgeezer]

ทาทาง มาด I think are interchangeable being appearance อาการ is occasional, you might be exitable in nature but it shows on occasions hence อาการ. ลักษาณะ I see what you mean but I don't think it is used like this. Sorry too difficult!

[DavidHouston]

I know that the OP did not ask for a translation; but this is an intriguing sentence - straight out of the kennel club. One cannot refrain from offering a wee bit of translation. Two alternatives:

ท่าทางวางโต มาดเนี้ยบ และอาการขี้ตื่นที่ติดตัวมาแต่กำเนิดน่ะไม่ใช่ลักษณะของเจ้าหมาตัวนี้เลย

1) This dog is self-confident and is perfectly poised; this is not the frightened little puppy he used to be.

2) This dog displays a presumptuous bearing and perfect repose; the puppy that flinched at its own shadow is not the same dog today that he used to be.

Could the OP please let us know if I am close to the mark? Thanks.

[thailandfaq]

ท่าทางวางโต Ok

มาดวางโต Also ok

อาการวางโต a tiny bit unusual but not unheard of. อาการ Usually used with problematic or undesirable feeling or behaviour.

ลักษณะวางโต Sounds ok but a bit formal.

มาดเนี้ยบ OK

ท่าทางเนี้ยบ OK

อาการเนี้ยบ Sound strange.

ลักษณะเนี้ยบ Again, a tiny bit unusual but not unheard of

อาการขี้ตื่น ok

ท่าทางขี้ตื่น ok

มาดขี้ตื่น Sounds strange. มาด is used with positive traits

ลักษณะขี้ตื่น sound formal.

Hope it helps!!

ท่าทางวางโต Ok I agree

มาดวางโต Also ok - I agree

มาดขี้ตื่น - wouldn't even consider using it never heard it used and it doesn't make any sense at all.

ลักษณะขี้ตื่น also wrong because ลักษณะ is about the visual chaacteristics whereas ขี้ตื่น is more of a state not a visual appearance it is more of an อาการ

อาการขี้ตื่น would make more sense but is also not an expression i would use at all. อาการ is a word i prefer to use for the states like "dizzy, drunk, angry" but never for "excitable" ลักษณะของคนที่ขี้ตื่น maybe is ok

อาการเนี้ยบ

no way - excellent or superb can not be an อาการ - the word อาการ is used to describe a condition or state - such as hot, angry cold , drunk, nervous , excited etc.. in some case you would use "มีอาการโกรธ, มีอาการเศร้า ฯฯ" and in some cases you would have to use ของคน too e.g. เขามีอาการของคนเมา (he has the condition of a drunk person) เขามีอาการเมา (he was/is) drunk. I personally would say simply "เขาเมาแล้ว"

I would never use any of the above ways of expressing these meanings anyway i would keep it simple as do the Thais.

One should write gracefully but speak simply.. this is how i have learned to do from Thai people.

I should add however that my personal sphere is not that of academic or corporate circles, rather with simple working class Thai people, so perhaps the need to create complex sentences and find ever more graceful ways of speaking Thai ismore useful to those who have to move in such social circles. To speak like that to a farmer in Isan country would just leave the people looking stumped or laughing their heads off. Admittedly when i first lerned to speak Thai i was obsessed with looking up wierd and wonderful words in the Dictionary and trying them out. My then Thai wife used to laugh me out of the house and say "Thai people don't speak lie that, where did you get that word from? and i would show her the dictionary and she'd say "this is Thai from 50 years ago".

I mean let's look at a year or so ago all the Thais were saying "ไม่กล้ามีเงิน" (I don't dare to have money) meaning "ไม่มีเงิน" (I don't have any money) - this is a slang expression of those which appear and disappear from one year to the next.. It is therefore important to keep tabs on what and how is being spoken by listening to (Thai) people talk. Listening is as far as i am concerned the greatest method of learning to be found.

hat in truth Thai people do not speak in this way and tend to use the shortest manner, except for when writing literature or speaking in documentaries etc.

In books, Thai (as domost Asian languages) prefer to repeat dmany words with similar meaning to enhance the gracefulness of speech (e.g. ท่าทางมาดวางโตฯฯ, เนียนนุ่มอ่อนไหวฯฯ ) buy on the street with the common folk, if you wish to speak like the locals, that you should not rrry to make all these intellectual permutations, as you will only appear to speak in a strange/foreign manner.

Just look at some of the Hollywood movies that have Thai subtitles; The translations are often literal and just sound totally strange using such forms of expression in Thai - they dont translate like that in reality.

If i was on the street and wanted to say someonw was pretentious then i would simply say "เป็นคนตัวมาด", "นมาด" or "มาดจะตาย"

But then of course the question in this post doesn't ask "how should i say it like a real Thai?" it simply asks for an intellectual semantic analysis of an extremely strange way to build sentences in Thai which a Thai would rarely be heard using

Although ท่าทางวางโต is understandable and also grammatically correct, i do not feel that it would be used in common speech, because ท่าทาง is too long - how about ทำท่าวางโต? perhaps this would be more likely to hear... วางโต is a ท่า , and ท่าทาง is the collection of possible ท่าทั้งหลายที่มีอยู่ you dont ทำท่าทาง, you ทำท่า

ทำท่าไม่รู้ไม่ชี้

ทำท่าทางไม่รู้ไม่ชี้

which sounds right? the first of course

think really we are talking about swaggering, so the best way to speak it in real Thai would be เดินวางโต because ท่าทาง is more of a position or posture whereas วางโต is more of a movement of body than a still position or posture. I may be wrong in this. I do know however that i have heard this word used by Thais and whenever it is used it will be ussed simply and normally as an alone standing word "คนนี้มันวางโต" or "มันทำเป็นวางโต" Of course this is not Grammatically correct and no Thai language professor woud teach you to speaklike this. But the truth is in fact that on the street common Thai people speaklike this. The use of มัน as a personal pronoun is also impolite but how many times have you heard it used in familiar speech?

[tgeezer]

I think that this says something like 'showoff macho, calmness, and a tendency toward excitability which are inbred are not the characteristics of this dog at all.

Edited January 13, 2010 by tgeezer

[anchan42]

ลักษณะขี้ตื่น

อาการขี้ตื่น

I still insist that this two sound quite normal to me. Maybe a bit formal and probably written language but not totally strange.

I have never heard of any people useไม่กล้ามีเงิน in place of ไม่ มีเงิน. I grew up and live in central part of Thailand. They might do that in isaan or up north but it would sound every strange to me. If somebody wanted to borrow some money for me and I said ไม่กล้ามีเงิน. It would sound as if I did not want to have any money because this(he borrowing money) would happen if I did. It could be interpreted as an insult.

เป็นคนตัวมาด Never heard of that one before but would not be surprised if it turns out to be regional idiom.

Regional differences are very interesting and fun to learn. Isaan people are quite surprised that I can understand them in isaan dialect.

I used to watch Charlie Chaplin dubbed in Isaan dialect. It was hilarious.

ทำท่าไม่รู้ไม่ชี้

ทำท่าทางไม่รู้ไม่ชี้

They sound equally right to me.

มัน is impolite only when you use it with people. It can indicate that you don’t like or look down on the people you refer to. It can also be used with people who have same or lower social status/age then you to indicate that you are friends. Depending on the context, really.

I think the sentence is self-conflicting. My translation would be “The presumptuous behaviour, perfect repose and being jumpy are not the innate nature of this dog”. I don’t think you can be วางโต,เนี้ยบ and then ขี้ตื่น at the same time.

[aitch]

The name of the book is ทิโมเลียน วิเอต้า . . . เจ้าสี่ขากลับคืนถิ่น

My first attempt to read a book in Thai cover to cover (really second attempt. gave it a go back in May but put it down to focus on conversational Thai). When i came across this sentence and looked up ท่าทาง, มาด, อาการ, and ลักษณะ in the dictionary, I was guessing that a couple words could be swapped and not change the meaning of the sentence. Not really at the point where i fully understand what I am reading but i do get the gist. I will add that he dog is พันทาง but appears to be oblivious to his 'proper place' so i think tgeezers and anchan42's translation is a better fit in this case. I appreciate it being added to the thread. Still on the first chapter and the first chapter is very short. It is really slow going, but that is o.k. The goal is to expand my vocabulary, get a grasp on some of the nuances, increase speed, and enjoy a good book like i do now in English. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond with these posts. They cover all four of those points. Thailandfaq's point on the difference between spoken and written Thai was an important one also. I am aware that there is a difference but I wouldn't know how that actually applies in real life.

Edited January 14, 2010 by aitch

[aanon]

The name of the book is ทิโมเลียน วิเอต้า . . . เจ้าสี่ขากลับคืนถิ่น

My first attempt to read a book in Thai cover to cover (really second attempt. gave it a go back in May but put it down to focus on conversational Thai). When i came across this sentence and looked up ท่าทาง, มาด, อาการ, and ลักษณะ in the dictionary, I was guessing that a couple words could be swapped and not change the meaning of the sentence. Not really at the point where i fully understand what I am reading but i do get the gist. I will add that he dog is พันทาง but appears to be oblivious to his 'proper place' so i think tgeezers and anchan42's translation is a better fit in this case. I appreciate it being added to the thread. Still on the first chapter and the first chapter is very short. It is really slow going, but that is o.k. The goal is to expand my vocabulary, get a grasp on some of the nuances, increase speed, and enjoy a good book like i do now in English. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond with these posts. They cover all four of those points. Thailandfaq's point on the difference between spoken and written Thai was an important one also. I am aware that there is a difference but I wouldn't know how that actually applies in real life.

So this is the book:

Timoleon Vieta Come Home – a sentimental journey

http://www.danrhodes.co.uk/timoleon.html

If anyone has a copy, it might be interesting to see the original version of this sentence. Without any further context, I'd lean towards tgeezer's take on the overall structure.

[anchan42]

I have looked into Amazon and found this sentence on review page.

"The self-conscious preening, superior air and inbred neuroses of the pedigree were not for him. "

Neuroses is a new word for me. My dictionary gave me this translation.

"a mental illness that makes someone unreasonably worried or frightened"

I am still not sure how can you have superior air and being neuroses at the same time. Anyone care to explain?

Edited January 15, 2010 by anchan42

[DavidHouston]

Thank you for that translation which appears to be the original English sentence which was then translated into Thai. I now understand that Geezeer and Aanon were correct in their interpretation and my wife and I were incorrect. Thank you all.

I have looked into Amazon and found this sentence on review page.

"The self-conscious preening, superior air and inbred neuroses of the pedigree were not for him. "

Neuroses is a new word for me. My dictionary gave me this translation.

"a mental illness that makes someone unreasonably worried or frightened"

I am still not sure how can you have superior air and being neuroses at the same time. Anyone care to explain?

[aanon]

Thank you for that translation which appears to be the original English sentence which was then translated into Thai. I now understand that Geezeer and Aanon were correct in their interpretation and my wife and I were incorrect. Thank you all.

I have looked into Amazon and found this sentence on review page.

"The self-conscious preening, superior air and inbred neuroses of the pedigree were not for him. "

Neuroses is a new word for me. My dictionary gave me this translation.

"a mental illness that makes someone unreasonably worried or frightened"

I am still not sure how can you have superior air and being neuroses at the same time. Anyone care to explain?

Another thanks. Actually, David, I assumed that ที่ติดตัวมาแต่กำเนิด governed all three characteristics, whereas 'inbred' here clearly governs only the neuroses, so my back-translation was seemingly off as well.

Getting a little pedantic, I'd say that ที่ติดตัวมาแต่กำเนิด is not a particularly accurate translation of 'inbred'. I believe that ที่ติดตัวมาแต่กำเนิด merely marks a characteristic as having been part of one individual's makeup from birth. 'Inbred' means that it is part of the breed and also has an association with the negative effects of limited genetic stock (think certain European families).

While trying to think of a better translation, it struck me that there is also considerable redundancy in the pairing of "inbred" and "of the pedigree". A translator's headache. I think I'd just use ของสายพันธ์ to cover both -- although I would then also be guilty of not rendering the full meaning of 'inbred'. Tricky business.

Anchan42: Since we are indulging in personification, we might as well try to imagine a person with the given characteristics. For me, it is quite possible to imagine somebody who gives the impression that they think they are superior (the superior air), while simultaneously (perhaps secretly) having, say, some mental disorder like paranoia or obsessiveness. [The term 'neuroses' can be used more broadly than the definition you have (eg. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/neuroses).]

Edited January 15, 2010 by aanon

[tgeezer]

Isn't that odd, I wrote inbred without looking it up and later decided that it was a mistake and was going to change it to inborn today. I thought that it was about an individual animal.

[anchan42]

Anchan42: Since we are indulging in personification, we might as well try to imagine a person with the given characteristics. For me, it is quite possible to imagine somebody who gives the impression that they think they are superior (the superior air), while simultaneously (perhaps secretly) having, say, some mental disorder like paranoia or obsessiveness. [The term 'neuroses' can be used more broadly than the definition you have (eg. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/neuroses).]

Thanks Aanon. That makes sense.

For me ขี้ระแวง might sound better then ขี้ตื่น. Translation is difficult indeed!!

[tgeezer]

Isn't that odd, I wrote inbred without looking it up and later decided that it was a mistake and was going to change it to inborn today. I thought that it was about an individual animal.

For anyone not interested in translation: I was right except for inbred and missing the pronoun. ก ข และ คที่(วลีวิเศษณ์)ไม่ใช่ลักษณะของเจ้าหมาตัวนี้เลย I don't think that there is anything which suggests 'inbreeding' is there?

All three characteristics should have been included as inborn, since that is what Pedigree is supposed to mean although unfortunatly inbreeding is more the norm these days.

Edited January 15, 2010 by tgeezer