Red-Shirt Movement 'At War With Military'

[SomTumTiger]

How's the war going up there in Chiang Mai? Managed to scare off the rest of the tourists yet? What we need is a good CM51 gay pride parade disruption. Haven't been one of those this month... The problem with the red shirts, is they don't care about free speech. They care about their speech. If you are saying somethign they don't like, you get fish sauce thrown at you... Classy to the end. (And the end is coming, and that right soon).

[TAWP]

may i remind you that Hitler was "democratically" elected too

Godwin's Law. Pro Thaksin posters win.

According to the law, invoking the law is also a forfeit loss.

[ChiangMaiFun]

How's the war going up there in Chiang Mai? Managed to scare off the rest of the tourists yet? What we need is a good CM51 gay pride parade disruption. Haven't been one of those this month... The problem with the red shirts, is they don't care about free speech. They care about their speech. If you are saying somethign they don't like, you get fish sauce thrown at you... Classy to the end. (And the end is coming, and that right soon).

I have stated many times - I am not a red shirt but probably sympathize more with the cause than yellow. I am against any faction claiming the 'high ground' which includes claiming Buddhism/Monarchy/Morals etc. All factions have negatives - all of them. Because you get some idiots 'throw fish sauce' or whatever doesn't mean you condemn the whole debate - the problem with yellow shirts is exactly the same one you elucidate for reds - think airport, think disruption - think of all the lost tourists that incident caused the tourist industry before you throw stones at others for 'scaring tourists away' - they single-handedly destroyed 30% of the market in a few weeks.

We need peace... surely you can see that there is a great split in the country? that to heal that split will take a new begining?

[animatic]

....They care about their speech. If you are saying somethign they don't like, you get fish sauce thrown at you... Classy to the end. (And the end is coming, and that right soon).

I have stated many times - I am not a red shirt but probably sympathize more with the cause than yellow. ....

If you are as you state then why do you argue the red side points so much harder,

and give no credence whatsoever to any OTHE sides point and I don't mean yellow only.

Your arguments don't show you even handed.

[jayboy]

may i remind you that Hitler was "democratically" elected too

Godwin's Law. Pro Thaksin posters win.

According to the law, invoking the law is also a forfeit loss.

The hoary myth that Hitler was democratically elected is often propounded by those with a cartoon understanding of twentieth century history, and also here in Thailand by those who fear democracy's consequences.The truth about Hitler's rise to power is rather more complex.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm

[scorecard]

[No sir, it is your outrageous twisted interpretation of my comments that is total nonsense. No wonder your red friends are outraged by what people say on this board based on the clearly BIASED and clearly inflammatory ways you present them. What purpose does it serve for you to inspire outrage by your Thai friends against foreigners here anyway? I don't get you at all.

You claimed yellows reflected conservative Buddhist views? did you not? and my friends are not outraged at foreign TV posters (they could not care less about our views actually) but against the yellow propaganda which your typical posts reflect. In fact I find it very difficult to find any supporters of the yellow agenda - apart from one farang friend who is even more reactionary than your goodself.

So whats your point?

Sounds like you oppose free speech, the only posts allowed here should be those which support your views?

Get over it man, elvis is dead!

[scorecard]

Another series of lies.These are the facts

1.The PAD wanted to reduce the voting influence of rural voters (ie the Thai majority).You can back away from it now but that was the position and is easily checked

2.The PAD platforms in Bangkok consistently slurred Thais of non Chinese ethnicity in a disgusting racist way.Do you deny it?

3.Giles is virulently anti Thaksin.Why are you rabbiting on about off field Giles anyway?

So provide the specific facts as per your assertion in your point 1.

[thaijasmine]

I don. 't know how many on this forum happened to see the Rageh Omaar documentary " Thailand: Warring Colours " shown on Al jazeera two or three weeks ago ? This is more balanced analysis of the situation than you will ever get from locally based media.

Said before on another forum, but this documentary doesn't have a single mention of the PAD protests, featuring some huge numbers, that lead to the coup. Instead our Raggie insinuates it was the "elite" that decided to have the coup because they didn't like Thaksin.

Bullshit, and an insult to the many thousands of people that protested Thaksins abuse of the system when selling AIS to Temasek. It's been reported many times here and elsewhere Thaksin was going to send his mob into Bangkok and the coup occurred to prevent this from happening.

Why not try asking an ordinary civilian about their take on vote buying, rather than a red shirt leader, Raggie? <deleted>...

Oh ok

So we are told the media inside the country is biased and you seem to be suggesting

Al Jazeera even outside the country is biased so where do you suggest we should obtain reliable and unbiased news

coverage of these developments ?

Well gosh darn. What to do when live gives you lemons like this?

Here's an idea; read all sources of news - even the ones that make you think angry thoughts - then conduct your own independent analysis and conclusion.

Prior to this documentary I thought Rageh Omaar was brilliant. Only a few weeks ago he presented an eye opening documentary on Channel 4 about race and intelligence, where he was interviewing people who openly considered him to be less intelligent because of the colour of his skin, yet he kept his professionalism throughout.

I can't think of any reason however this rather significant chapter in Thaksin's PM-ship was omitted from the documentary, given IMHO (and probably many, many others) it was the main conduit for his government being overthrown - and not because the "elite" didn't like him as the documentary insinuates.

Ok -you say " read all sources of news then conduct your own independent analysis and conclusion "

This is not so easy to achieve when the mere discussion of a vital component of this jigsaw constitutes an illegal activity.........

so conclusion..........how many farangs on this board really have a clue about the true situation ?

[Insight]

so conclusion..........how many farangs on this board really have a clue about the true situation ?

Yep, when people believe truely that the red shirts represent true democracy and could function without Thaksin, you've got a point.

What a shambles.

[scorecard]

Actually the overthrow of the violent and corrupt dictator Thaksin was welcomed, judging by the immediate reaction of the population.

There is no treason in a non-violent coup which overthrows a corrupt dictatorship, unless of course the corrupt dictator wins.

Many would dispute your claim the coup was welcomed by most Thais, but in any case it's completely irrelevant whether it was welcomed or not.

Your second assertion is even more absurd.Again whether the coup was violent or not is irrelevant (although the threat of violence is always implicit).The question is whether the government overthrown by the junta was constitutionally legitimate or not, not whether it was led by a "corrupt dictator" in your usage or the nation's saviour as many others would have it.As a matter of fact in an assessment of Thaksin, I lean more towards your description but again that's completely irrelevant.

The fact that these criminals in a panicky and cowardly way procured post facto pardons for themselves demonstrates that they at least knew very clearly they had committed treason.

Yes. In a true democracy, the elected officials have terms which are served out. The elected officials have a limit to the number of terms they can serve. This assures that the opposition will only have to endure a democratically elected party for certain amount of time, and then they can have another chance, reinvigorated, stronger, and purged of any candidates which may have been holding the party back. This process not only is self perpetuating, but very strong in promoting peace among opposing factions of common people, because it utilizes the peoples hope for a guaranteed, reasonable, possibility for change as a pacifier. Now, in Thailand, once there is a party in office the people in the streets feel that violence is their only hope for change since it seems there is no other way to get another chance. It is also the reason you keep hearing everyone shout CORRUPTION! incessantly. It really is irrelevant whether they are corrupt or not if what really matters is the vote of the people. Not to mention the fact that the determination of relative corruption in many cases is subjective, as well as the "nature of the beast" in politics. You can see that George Bush was corrupt to a certain degree, however, there was no need to fight about it because the opposition had hope that they could empower themselves and their message and trust the system and the popular vote to remove him, or in his case he could not run anyway because his term limit had been reached. However, the people of Thailand must know they have complete control over who who gets elected by way of a free and fair, scheduled national elections. The term "SNAP ELECTION" is almost comical and should be outlawed! Thailand has a long way to go to reach these basic requirements, and many others, for listing itself as a democracy. There are massive class struggles swept under the carpet every day which have been festering for hundreds of years. The privileged WILL protect their lifestyles even at the expense of democracy until it is too late. We know this from history. I hope it is not too late for Thailand.

Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.

And nothing will change, until, like in every other 'quality' democracy, the middle classes tand up and demand that things change. In this regard history has repeated itself time and again.

As eluded to in the message above, i hope Thailand learns at least one lesson - enact a law /change the constitution so that it is impossible for one man to gain and keep total control!

[yoshiwara]

The problem with the red shirts, is they don't care about free speech. They care about their speech. If you are saying somethign they don't like, you get fish sauce thrown at you... Classy to the end.

Absolutely...and not only fish sauce, but an oil tanker, guns and baseball bats. And then deny it. And shout double standards. And look to Thaksin for the next green light. And payment of course.

[Siripon]

The problem with the red shirts, is they don't care about free speech. They care about their speech. If you are saying somethign they don't like, you get fish sauce thrown at you... Classy to the end.

Absolutely...and not only fish sauce, but an oil tanker, guns and baseball bats. And then deny it. And shout double standards. And look to Thaksin for the next green light. And payment of course.

If Thaksin loses the lot on February 26 the unemployment figures may increase sharply- amongst the red shirts.

[nakachalet]

_chiengmaifun

_{for your info, i for one knows the coup is welcomed by most thai, most thai outside of esan, that is....}

_{i met and talked with hundreds of working class thai every day, day in and day out, there were doubts in their minds in the beginning of the coup....}

_{but after a year of almost selfless leadership of the new govt, ordinary people including MAE-KAR, POR-KAR in the market places begin to realize and see the differences between the monopoly of the former leadership and the new leadership which allows everyone who wants to do something.... do it without having to succumb to the dictum of the leader....}

_{and the cleaning up of the underground loterry which brought on outrages from the elderly generation who is mostly hooked on betting, gettng and guessisng the correct number of the last 3-digit of the lucky number.... this eradication of lottery LAKE-TAI-SARM-TOUR (last three digit) however, are most welcomed by the older generation's offsprings themselves, so the elders mostly nowadays complains less and less.... bravo to the education system that helps the younger generation to rise above their own family standards and practices....}

Edited January 25, 2010 by nakachalet

[nakachalet]

_{one has to keep in mind....}

_{the background and the level of education of most of the redshirt supporters....}

_{and most importantly, the geographical location of where the action originates from....}

_{when they move their forces to central part of thailand.... where everything is plentiful....}

_{people are not as hardup as where they are from.... and i am not bad mouthing my dear friends from esan either....}

_{BUT most people in central part of thailand do aspire to higher grounds.... and expect fairness in all things....}

_{govt by force as proposed by the redshirts.... will never be accepted by most fair minded thais.... particularly the university students.... imho}

_{they will rightly or wrongly take to the streets again to make their wishes known.... like the former years....}

The problem with the red shirts, is they don't care about free speech. They care about their speech. If you are saying somethign they don't like, you get fish sauce thrown at you... Classy to the end.

Absolutely...and not only fish sauce, but an oil tanker, guns and baseball bats. And then deny it. And shout double standards. And look to Thaksin for the next green light. And payment of course.

[jdinasia]

This is a Nation article so take it with some salt. The Nation is famous for setting up the elite against the people. Just to keep out of the arms of the NCC the directors and owners have chosen to sell their sole and independence to the yellow shirts. That is why you do not find any critical note towards courts who apply double standards and no critical note towards people like Prem, Surayud or others.

I suppose that all people who have a democratic mind and who love freedom of speech are at war with the military. Not necessarily a war in which people get killed but at least a intellectual war. It is unforgiving and unacceptable that an institution that should work for the people grabbed power more than the military in any given African banana republic did. Worse it is always to un-seed the people elected by the poor and it seems always to benefit the rich and especially the Chinese Thai minority.

Agreed, I smell a rat. As the time draws closer for the reds to start their rallies and a decision on Thaksins court case, I think the

government and their supporters will use anything to discredit the reds and Thaksin, even by linking a nut case like this guy to the reds.

I wounder if the reds will deny he is now "a leader" if not I could change my opinion.

Have you checked out the guy's history yet? If so then may we assume that you have changed your opinion?

[mca]

_{govt by force as proposed by the redshirts....}

Err.... 2006 military coup anyone?

[PeaceBlondie]

Could we focus on the main topic, please? Thanks.

[Splatter]

The worrying thing that I saw at the recent rally at Democracy Monument was how many

regular adult civvies were swamping Khattiya Sawasdipol aka Sae Dang to sign

just about anything they could find that was red.

They seemed to be going nuts for the guy.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/4173774563/

[animatic]

Could we focus on the main topic, please? Thanks.

Government by force sounds like at war with the army.

Nakachalet makes some very good points from a Thai's perspective.

3 governments back, a dysfunctional caretaker government was removed.

Since then a referendum, and a national election installed a Thaksin backed political coalition,

but from cheating excesses that party fell, and mostly the same elected PM's voted a new coalition into power.

Those MPs that were removed when their party fell were replaced in local by-elections.

AND only party LEADERSHIP and the party NAME was removed.

The rank and file members of TRT and PPP who were not in party leadership are STILL voting MPs.

AND change of government not by Abhisits choice to dissolve the legislature

and call elections is therefore illegitimate, and if Thaksin creates a shadow exiled government,

just stating he has does NOT make it legitimate, because Thaksin has no mandate at all.

Abhisit was voted into his Minster of Parliament chair and thus earned the right to be a coalition leader.

Thaksin has not won an election since 2005. And Thaksin dissolved the parliament

and removed HIMSELF from Prime Minister chair, in 2006

to absolve himself of the Temesek charges by attempting to win again immediately after his previous win.

A gross miscalculation done all on his own. He has no say in the running of this country.

So if he has his feudal lieges make war on the army and try to do a coup or fake the army doing a coup

so that he can seek a 'government in exiles' legitimacy for him he STILL HAS NO MANDATE,

NOR CAN HE GET ONE TILL HE'S SERVED SOME OF HIS SENTENCE

AND BEEN GRANTED A PARDON HIS FAMILY APPLIES FOR.

So really the majority of his arguments and moves are baseless blathering,

UNLESS he gains actual military power.... then with his tendency for revenge and

CEO style monomaniacal leadership we are in for a rough ride.

Edited January 25, 2010 by animatic

[SomTumTiger]

The red shirts aren't at war with the military. The are at war with someone/thing else entirely. However, its the first time I've ever heard of an indirect, misdirect war.

[animatic]

The worrying thing that I saw at the recent rally at Democracy Monument was how many

regular adult civvies were swamping Khattiya Sawasdipol aka Sae Dang to sign

just about anything they could find that was red.

They seemed to be going nuts for the guy.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/4173774563/

Some of the most charismatic people I have ever known were destined for jail or asylums.

One or two to stardom of sorts, which then being a nut becomes a character asset because it sells news print.

Sad to say, but some people who can work a crowd well are not necessarily stable,

because they seek and have learned toactively manipulate their own adulation to

make up for some sense of inadequacy hiding behind and eminence front, facade.

[zzaa09]

may i remind you that Hitler was "democratically" elected too

Godwin's Law. Pro Thaksin posters win.

According to the law, invoking the law is also a forfeit loss.

The hoary myth that Hitler was democratically elected is often propounded by those with a cartoon understanding of twentieth century history, and also here in Thailand by those who fear democracy's consequences.The truth about Hitler's rise to power is rather more complex.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-hitlerdemo.htm

Indeed. And whom would least benefit from a open and free democracy?

[Splatter]

The worrying thing that I saw at the recent rally at Democracy Monument was how many

regular adult civvies were swamping Khattiya Sawasdipol aka Sae Dang to sign

just about anything they could find that was red.

They seemed to be going nuts for the guy.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/4173774563/

Some of the most charismatic people I have ever known were destined for jail or asylums.

One or two to stardom of sorts, which then being a nut becomes a character asset because it sells news print.

Sad to say, but some people who can work a crowd well are not necessarily stable,

because they seek and have learned toactively manipulate their own adulation to

make up for some sense of inadequacy hiding behind and eminence front, facade.

Yup.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/...57607067686040/

[mca]

Sad to say, but some people who can work a crowd well are not necessarily stable,

because they seek and have learned toactively manipulate their own adulation to

make up for some sense of inadequacy hiding behind and eminence front, facade.

I never realised you were into self analysis animatic . More power to you!

( I'm kidding mate)

[yoshiwara]

The red shirts aren't at war with the military. The are at war with someone/thing else entirely. However, its the first time I've ever heard of an indirect, misdirect war.

That's right. It is Thaksin's not so hidden agenda. His stupidity was/is his lack of patience. The other side have seen his face and he does not hide it so well. No peace possible.

[Insight]

Yup.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/...57607067686040/

Wonder what else Seh Daeng and Sondhi will have in common by the end of this year?

[animatic]

The worrying thing that I saw at the recent rally at Democracy Monument was how many

regular adult civvies were swamping Khattiya Sawasdipol aka Sae Dang to sign

just about anything they could find that was red.

They seemed to be going nuts for the guy.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/4173774563/

Some of the most charismatic people I have ever known were destined for jail or asylums.

One or two to stardom of sorts, which then being a nut becomes a character asset because it sells news print.

Sad to say, but some people who can work a crowd well are not necessarily stable,

because they seek and have learned toactively manipulate their own adulation to

make up for some sense of inadequacy hiding behind and eminence front, facade.

Yup.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/11401580@N03/...57607067686040/

Can't say I ever found him the stablest of souflés in the oven,

But then again he has done a admirable job of deflating Dr. T.

which clearly was a long term goal of his...

After that he seemed a trifle

a. lost, b. caught up in the hoopla.

He was Thaksin's Phi Krasu so to speak,

an avenging spirit created by your own misdeeds.

[animatic]

The red shirts aren't at war with the military. The are at war with someone/thing else entirely. However, its the first time I've ever heard of an indirect, misdirect war.

That's right. It is Thaksin's not so hidden agenda. His stupidity was/is his lack of patience. The other side have seen his face and he does not hide it so well. No peace possible.

Too thick to hide?

Or is he now too thick, to hide his face.

[Fishbucket]

_{chiengmaifun for your info, i for one knows the coup is welcomed by most thai, most thai outside of esan, that is.... i met and talked with hundreds of working class thai every day, day in and day out, there were doubts in their minds in the beginning of the coup.... but after a year of almost selfless leadership of the new govt, ordinary people including MAE-KAR, POR-KAR in the market places begin to realize and see the differences between the monopoly of the former leadership and the new leadership which allows everyone who wants to do something.... do it without having to succumb to the dictum of the leader.... and the cleaning up of the underground loterry which brought on outrages from the elderly generation who is mostly hooked on betting, gettng and guessisng the correct number of the last 3-digit of the lucky number.... this eradication of lottery LAKE-TAI-SARM-TOUR (last three digit) however, are most welcomed by the older generation's offsprings themselves, so the elders mostly nowadays complains less and less.... bravo to the education system that helps the younger generation to rise above their own family standards and practices....}

That is the point.

Welcomed by the minority of thai, the PAD and the yellowshirts.

Thats why the military appointed leader of this "brave new world" is up before the Human Rights Watch in New York for his crimes of Human Rights Abuses against the majority .

As is often said, if things are so good put it to the voters for endorsement.

[brahmburgers]

An opinion piece in today's Nation newspaper says there are doubts that there was an explosion at all. Twice it mentions the fact that reporters were not allowed to see the site where the grenade purportedly exploded.

If the Keystone Cops series needs added episodes, they should send their writers to Thailand. What sort of ding dongs are running the military, if they can't even gauge whether or not there's been a grenade explosion on their premises?