Red-Shirt Movement 'At War With Military'

[mca]

If the Keystone Cops series needs added episodes, they should send their writers to Thailand. explosion

I've got this mental image of a load of Thai soldiers perched on the back of a tank who then fall off backwards, pick themselves up and run after the tank clutching onto their helmets.

[animatic]

As if Thaksin wasn't ever mentioned in a bad light by Human Rights Watch, or George W. Bush for that matter.

Both made that same list.

And it isn't for crimes against the 'majority' either, as so inaccurately written above,

but at 2 or 3 minorities. It's not even clearly crimes under Thai law for that matter.

Sorry, but being voted by Minsiters of Parliament to the Prime ministers Chair is not a crime in Thailand.

HRW is a good thing, but it is also a philosophically based watch dog and thus more absolutist,

it sets standards like a Uni Professor, and then expects the real world to meet them or get bad press over it.

It is also a western Uni philosophically created standard and not looking at life from the Asian point of view.

Which is no doubt different.

There is no, "Up before Human Rights Watch." It's not like the World Court in the Hague,

or any actual legal body, it is a philosophical body holding up a mirror.

There is no specific reason for the Generals to tell all about this bombing.

No doubt there was is an element of saving face,

and not letting the country know someone dared attack their offices,

because it makes them look vulnerable at a time that's a bad idea.

Of course that was the intention, make them look and feel vulnerable.

But it only put them on increased guard since it did nothing to change leadership.

There were plenty of ways to rein in Sae Deang with out faking a bombing to do it.

But this is one way to destabilize of give the appearance of a diminished army,

and this is a critical time to do it considering the stakes.

Edited January 26, 2010 by animatic

[scorecard]

The worrying thing that I saw at the recent rally at Democracy Monument was how many

regular adult civvies were swamping Khattiya Sawasdipol aka Sae Dang to sign

just about anything they could find that was red.

They seemed to be going nuts for the guy.

You said "regular adult civvies."

By looking at the photo I suggest it's really his own red shirt people who are seeking his autograph, rather than 'regular civvies'.

And as I recall the rally was quite small.

[hammered]

One thing is for sure the red movement dont do themselves any favours in terms of convincing people they are really about democracy by having characters such as Sae Daeng in their leadership and authorised to make statements for them

[Splatter]

The worrying thing that I saw at the recent rally at Democracy Monument was how many

regular adult civvies were swamping Khattiya Sawasdipol aka Sae Dang to sign

just about anything they could find that was red.

They seemed to be going nuts for the guy.

You said "regular adult civvies."

By looking at the photo I suggest it's really his own red shirt people who are seeking his autograph, rather than 'regular civvies'.

And as I recall the rally was quite small.

I'm not sure I can agree, even though I'd like to. Okay, I can go with "regular adult civvies" being

a poor label for grown men who want their tee shirts signed by anyone other than Bobby Moore,

Martin Johnson and Ian Botham.

My concern was that having been there, the bloke appeared to have some celbrity status with a large number in the crowd. You can see that from the other photos in the set.... but of course, yes, they were all red shirts. I just hope it was the "adrenalin of the moment" and that the moment is passing.

I'm on neither side, as I think comes across in my postings, but I was also surprised to

see how large the turnout was that evening.

[animatic]

Many people get their 15 minutes of fame for being butt stupid.

Jade Goody or any Big Brother candidate, or other reality program wingnuts.

People who go on Jerry Springer or Rikki Lake, one shot guests on Thai talk shows,

yakking with a fake Katoey, or the 5 legged dog owner from upper nowhere.

This guy courts fame and notoriety, but not in a rational manner.

See his website, guns and stuffed animals, a truly warped view on the world.

He is a celebrity in a land where getting interviewed 3 times on TV makes you a celebrity.

In a land of mai bpen rai and sloth a man of action stands out too.

Gotta say he IS a man of action; ill considered actions in too many case,

but at least he makes a move rather than waits for death to come someday.

Still 'Declaring War On The Army' is asking for death to come sooner in most cultures.

Edited January 26, 2010 by animatic

[jayboy]

Many people get their 15 minutes of fame for being butt stupid.

Jade Goody or any Big Brother candidate, or other reality program wingnuts.

People who go on Jerry Springer or Rikki Lake, one shot guests on Thai talk shows,

yakking with a fake Katoey, or the 5 legged dog owner from upper nowhere.

This guy courts fame and notoriety, but not in a rational manner.

See his website, guns and stuffed animals, a truly warped view on the world.

He is a celebrity in a land where getting interviewed 3 times on TV makes you a celebrity.

In a land of mai bpen rai and sloth a man of action stands out too.

Gotta say he IS a man of action; ill considered actions in too many case,

but at least he makes a move rather than waits for death to come someday.

Still 'Declaring War On The Army' is asking for death to come sooner in most cultures.

I think most would agree he is a strange and unlikeable piece of work.Oddly enough I think he is typical of many Thais with power, albeit in an extreme form.By this I mean a crazy self confidence sometimes edging into odious arrogance, sometimes with a cheesy charm but usually unaccompanied by the ability to think rationally which would give the undoubted charisma some real substance.That's why I place so much faith in people like the current Finance Minister who is the polar opposite.But there's part of me which sadly feels there's usually something irremediably second rate about Thais when they have power and influence, and that applies right across the political spectrum.

[animatic]

The sky IS falling we agree on two whole posts in a month...

Must be a mistake or the universe just burped!

Edited January 26, 2010 by animatic

[rixalex]

But there's part of me which sadly feels there's usually something irremediably second rate about Thais when they have power and influence, and that applies right across the political spectrum.

Quite so. Probably something to do with what it usually takes to attain power and influence in a place like this, i.e. can't be done unless you are willing to play by the same dodgy rules that virtually everyone else around you is playing by.

[mca]

But there's part of me which sadly feels there's usually something irremediably second rate about Thais when they have power and influence, and that applies right across the political spectrum.

I've always thought that. When you look at some of these folks wielding such things you think to yourself "They don't come across as the sharpest tools in the box."

Though I suppose when you're in possession of absolutely no scruples at all being a Booker Prize winner doesn't really come into it.

It doesn't take the brain of a neurosurgeon to, for example, ask a pal "Can I borrow your car?" and then go an sell it and pocket the cash.

[scorecard]

But there's part of me which sadly feels there's usually something irremediably second rate about Thais when they have power and influence, and that applies right across the political spectrum.

Quite so. Probably something to do with what it usually takes to attain power and influence in a place like this, i.e. can't be done unless you are willing to play by the same dodgy rules that virtually everyone else around you is playing by.

Well said, and another way to say it is that out of the many people in this country who are capable honest and sincere you only see 1 or 2 in the parliament, and the best example is Khun Korn.

The rest of capable and sincere people don't want to associated in any way this what mostly amounts to a gang of leeches and thieves who don't have the capability to get out of their own way.

[brahmburgers]

If you go searching for a dog in a dog pound, you're apt to get a dog pound dog.

As with military brass, so it goes with politicians - the ones who rise to the top of the heap - did so within the parameters of their corrupt system. Honest decent wise people (and those who won't stoop to bribing) just aren't going to get the promotions.

[granuaile]

_{chiengmaifun for your info, i for one knows the coup is welcomed by most thai, most thai outside of esan, that is.... i met and talked with hundreds of working class thai every day, day in and day out, there were doubts in their minds in the beginning of the coup.... but after a year of almost selfless leadership of the new govt, ordinary people including MAE-KAR, POR-KAR in the market places begin to realize and see the differences between the monopoly of the former leadership and the new leadership which allows everyone who wants to do something.... do it without having to succumb to the dictum of the leader.... and the cleaning up of the underground loterry which brought on outrages from the elderly generation who is mostly hooked on betting, gettng and guessisng the correct number of the last 3-digit of the lucky number.... this eradication of lottery LAKE-TAI-SARM-TOUR (last three digit) however, are most welcomed by the older generation's offsprings themselves, so the elders mostly nowadays complains less and less.... bravo to the education system that helps the younger generation to rise above their own family standards and practices....}

That is the point.

Welcomed by the minority of thai, the PAD and the yellowshirts.

Thats why the military appointed leader of this "brave new world" is up before the Human Rights Watch in New York for his crimes of Human Rights Abuses against the majority .

As is often said, if things are so good put it to the voters for endorsement.

I see. Hmmm I have been staying out of this, because while most of my friends are opposed to Thaksin I have some who like him. Me, I'm like the song "The Orange and the Green." But....

Human Rights Watch has no official standing with any national or international entity that I am aware of. They are not a judicial organization that brings - or even can bring - charges against any country or individual, and the Unites States is persistently listed in their annual report for human rights violations (I think rightfully so). However the statement that the democratically chosen leader (not militarily appointed) of the government here "...is up before the Human Rights Watch in New York for his crimes..." is not factual or accurate. In addition whether the majority support one side or the other I don't want to get into. My Thai friends mostly support one side, whether that represents general sentiment I don't know.

Reading these threads though I am often tempted to post a photo that a friend emailed me following the 2006 coup. Before that I was in a hospital When I emailed her to ask if she was OK, she responded yes and that "honestly, I don't know anyone who doesn't support this" accompanied by several photos including one she took of children giving ice cream to the soldiers near her office. That hardly seems like an unpopular event. I am not sure about policies concerning photos so figure best to refrain... LOL I don't want to get banned. But to elevate HRW to the status of an official standing and to use the term "crime" to describe something which there is no evidence of begged a response here. And I seem to have read that they cited the two known deaths in last years disturbances, however the victims were opposing the reds ands shot by gunmen on motorcycles.

My sympathies are shaped by my friends, but I hope whatever happens it is what is good for Thailand and not for individuals on either side.

[animatic]

I am guilty of this too, but we must not feed the reddened trolls here.

There are red siding individuals worth debating here,

but the obvious trolls or PR weenies should get short and sweet rebuttal's,

and not bother with extended details they don't even read or consider

before posting the next boilerplate fallacy for the cause.

[PeaceBlondie]

I am guilty of this too, but we must not feed the reddened trolls here.

Nor should we feed the yellowed trolls, eh?

[Ricardo]

If the Keystone Cops series needs added episodes, they should send their writers to Thailand. explosion

I've got this mental image of a load of Thai soldiers perched on the back of a tank who then fall off backwards, pick themselves up and run after the tank clutching onto their helmets.

Only to be ambushed by a handful of banana-skins, strewn carelessly across their path, perchance ?

[ChiangMaiFun]

I am guilty of this too, but we must not feed the reddened trolls here.

There are red siding individuals worth debating here,

but the obvious trolls or PR weenies should get short and sweet rebuttal's,

and not bother with extended details they don't even read or consider

before posting the next boilerplate fallacy for the cause.

It’s this sort of debasing of any argument with 'reddened trolls' and 'PR weenies' (whatever that is) which really shows your contempt for any other views but your own - those who may have some sympathy for the red cause are not stupid nor stooges but are entitled to debate - and what about you yellow fellows posting deliberate yellow banana skins all over the thread? there is a perfectly intelligent counter-argument to your unabashed, yellow supporting nonsense - the most important is let the people decide (which you are afraid of - of course). You do not exclusively hold the high ground nor do you speak with a consensus of the Thai people nor (lastly) do you have any moral or intellectual superiority - although you try to demonstrate that you do...

...naturally you will dismiss this as 'troll behaviour', 'stooge propaganda' or 'un-intelligent' - you being superior and all...

[jdinasia]

I am guilty of this too, but we must not feed the reddened trolls here.

There are red siding individuals worth debating here,

but the obvious trolls or PR weenies should get short and sweet rebuttal's,

and not bother with extended details they don't even read or consider

before posting the next boilerplate fallacy for the cause.

It’s this sort of debasing of any argument with 'reddened trolls' and 'PR weenies' (whatever that is) which really shows your contempt for any other views but your own - those who may have some sympathy for the red cause are not stupid nor stooges but are entitled to debate - and what about you yellow fellows posting deliberate yellow banana skins all over the thread? there is a perfectly intelligent counter-argument to your unabashed, yellow supporting nonsense - the most important is let the people decide (which you are afraid of - of course). You do not exclusively hold the high ground nor do you speak with a consensus of the Thai people nor (lastly) do you have any moral or intellectual superiority - although you try to demonstrate that you do...

...naturally you will dismiss this as 'troll behaviour', 'stooge propaganda' or 'un-intelligent' - you being superior and all...

I think instead that it will be dismissed because you have admitted that the current government is in place legally and yet you keep crying for elections. The people elected the MP's who in turn elected the last 3 PM's .. you apparently had no issue with Samak and Somchai .. but do with the newest of the three COALITION governments.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I am guilty of this too, but we must not feed the reddened trolls here.

There are red siding individuals worth debating here,

but the obvious trolls or PR weenies should get short and sweet rebuttal's,

and not bother with extended details they don't even read or consider

before posting the next boilerplate fallacy for the cause.

It's this sort of debasing of any argument with 'reddened trolls' and 'PR weenies' (whatever that is) which really shows your contempt for any other views but your own - those who may have some sympathy for the red cause are not stupid nor stooges but are entitled to debate - and what about you yellow fellows posting deliberate yellow banana skins all over the thread? there is a perfectly intelligent counter-argument to your unabashed, yellow supporting nonsense - the most important is let the people decide (which you are afraid of - of course). You do not exclusively hold the high ground nor do you speak with a consensus of the Thai people nor (lastly) do you have any moral or intellectual superiority - although you try to demonstrate that you do...

...naturally you will dismiss this as 'troll behaviour', 'stooge propaganda' or 'un-intelligent' - you being superior and all...

I think instead that it will be dismissed because you have admitted that the current government is in place legally and yet you keep crying for elections. The people elected the MP's who in turn elected the last 3 PM's .. you apparently had no issue with Samak and Somchai .. but do with the newest of the three COALITION governments.

My position is clear... I believe, that for the sake of peace in Thailand, that an election to 'show' the people that they do have a voice is the way forward - not because I want Thaksin back nor as an affront to Abhsit (who I have consistently said I quiet liked) but because many believe (me too, me too!) that although the government is technically ’legal’ it does not have widespread support – and if it does PROVE it. Let us not forget the government in Germany in 1940s was legal as is Mugabe's.

[animatic]

I am guilty of this too, but we must not feed the reddened trolls here.

Nor should we feed the yellowed trolls, eh?

Yes that too,

though they tend to bite the hand that feeds them less frequently.

I have never seen a purple cow.

I hope I never see one.

But I'd rather see a purple cow,

than take the chance to be one.

[way2muchcoffee]

My position is clear... I believe, that for the sake of peace in Thailand, that an election to 'show' the people that they do have a voice is the way forward - not because I want Thaksin back nor as an affront to Abhsit (who I have consistently said I quiet liked) but because many believe (me too, me too!) that although the government is technically ’legal’ it does not have widespread support – and if it does PROVE it. Let us not forget the government in Germany in 1940s was legal as is Mugabe's.

And the democrats have stated that they are fully willing to call elections as soon as there is the ability to campaign freely in all areas without threat of violence, and there are no terrorist/revolutionary actions on the part of the opposition. So the onus is really on the PPP to reign in their supporters and to drop the divisive criminal Thaksin from their platform. But they have shown little interest in either, and in fact seem to be going in the opposite direction.

Why should there be premature elections when they can neither be free nor fair?

It makes no sense.

Edited January 27, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[animatic]

1 )

There are those who are 'true believers' and post different things regularly in the same general direction.

Those people deserve to be heard.

2 )

There are those that continuously disrupt and distract and cause thread tangents,

so that the ideas that they don't want heard get shut out, or just to be difficult toward those they dislike.

Those are trolls of various flavors

3 )

There are also those who post the same short and totally fallacious things, like reading a sheet of assignments.

over and over again, hoping that if you say a lie enough people eventually believe the lie.

Those are the PR weenies, or in old school speak; Propaganda Apparatchiks.

Sadly group often clouds the facts in the minds of some in group 1.

So trying to not get put upon by groups 2 and 3 serves all interests,

except those hooping to spread propaganda.

There is no debasement of the argument by these anti troll comments,

but preventing debasement of the argument by not allowing the trolls to win.

There are significantly fewer yellow side trolls,

but quite a few in sympathy with 'some' of that sides aims.

Edited January 27, 2010 by animatic

[ChiangMaiFun]

My position is clear... I believe, that for the sake of peace in Thailand, that an election to 'show' the people that they do have a voice is the way forward - not because I want Thaksin back nor as an affront to Abhsit (who I have consistently said I quiet liked) but because many believe (me too, me too!) that although the government is technically ’legal’ it does not have widespread support – and if it does PROVE it. Let us not forget the government in Germany in 1940s was legal as is Mugabe's.

And the democrats have stated that they are fully willing to call elections as soon as there is the ability to campaign freely in all areas without threat of violence, and there are no terrorist/revolutionary actions on the part of the opposition. So the onus is really on the PPP to reign in their supporters and to drop the divisive criminal Thaksin from their platform. But they have shown little interest in either, and in fact seem to be going in the opposite direction.

Why should there be premature elections when they can neither be free nor fair?

It makes no sense.

Ok... but that's 'victors justice' not true justice - I would agree, if at all possible, that elections should be free and fair (obviously). The point is that you are quoting the yellows as if they are 'clean and pure' but what about the airport take-over? you fail to be even-handed - if they condemned that as equally as they condemn red agitation then i could see your point. I'm afraid there is undemocratic behaviour on both sides. My last points are: do you have a better solution? do you think that the current government will hang on? for how long? when is the due date for the next election? and lastly... do you really believe this government has national support? I hope I am worng but if it doesn't then there is trouble coming and it will be a sad day for Thailand.

[rixalex]

My position is clear... I believe, that for the sake of peace in Thailand, that an election to 'show' the people that they do have a voice is the way forward

It wouldn't be for the sake of peace, it would be for the sake of the red shirts.

The country is peaceful now, granted not without a degree of division and friction, but what guarantees are there that after an election there would be any change in that? I don't think there would. Indeed, if a Thaksin friendly government were formed, as you believe, i think if anything the division and friction that exists now would be amplified ten-fold.

Red shirts need to accept that complaining about the political process that allowed Abhisit to come to power would only have had credibility had they been similarly vocal about the way Samak and Somchai came to power. They weren't. The political process was fine for them until the opposition got in power. Now it's all wrong. Funny that...

[ChiangMaiFun]

My position is clear... I believe, that for the sake of peace in Thailand, that an election to 'show' the people that they do have a voice is the way forward

It wouldn't be for the sake of peace, it would be for the sake of the red shirts.

The country is peaceful now, granted not without a degree of division and friction, but what guarantees are there that after an election there would be any change in that? I don't think there would. Indeed, if a Thaksin friendly government were formed, as you believe, i think if anything the division and friction that exists now would be amplified ten-fold.

Red shirts need to accept that complaining about the political process that allowed Abhisit to come to power would only have had credibility had they been similarly vocal about the way Samak and Somchai came to power. They weren't. The political process was fine for them until the opposition got in power. Now it's all wrong. Funny that...

'The country is peaceful now' long may it continue... but I fear it will not... there is a North/South divide which we should all hope one day is united peacefully. Many feel justice has not been served - you cannot shut them up with the arguements put forward here - anyhow let's hope all stays calm - we can all agree on that at least!

[animatic]

The North / South divide you talk about is a wholly manufactured item.

It is made to seem more for partisan power reasons,

the average person just wants to get on with life.

There are MPs from all over the north in Parliament right now and their

main problem is their leadership is either incompetent or beholden to special interests.

The current government ie cabinet and PM should hold on and bring national stability at the top :

a ) as long as it's Parliament that elected it is still in office.

b ) as long as it can hold its coalition together.

c ) And not leave earlier if free and fair campaigning

is still an impossibility for 1/3rd of the nation. As is the case now.

Those are the basic pre-requisites for an election being needed.

The mandate is held by the MPs, not by the cabinet, it is always that way.

Edited January 27, 2010 by animatic

[AugustineB]

What I want to know is - from a purely selfish point of view - will Thailand be a safe place to live for foreigners over the next few weeks/months ? Is this all bark and no bite or....

I appreciate if you live here long term you are not going to want hear a "no"to that question - but I would appreciate an objective view as possible - I simply don't know enough about the situation to make an accurate assessment myself.

[ChiangMaiFun]

The North / South divide you talk about is a wholly manufactured item.

It is made to seem more for partisan power reasons,

the average person just wants to get on with life.

There are MPs from all over the north in Parliament right now and their

main problem is their leadership is either incompetent or beholden to special interests.

The current government ie cabinet and PM should hold on and bring national stability at the top :

a ) as long as it's Parliament that elected it is still in office.

b ) as long as it can hold its coalition together.

c ) And not leave earlier if free and fair campaigning

is still an impossibility for 1/3rd of the nation. As is the case now.

Those are the basic pre-requisites for an election being needed.

The mandate is held by the MPs, not by the cabinet, it is always that way.

So no date like the rest of the democratic world? no 5 year term?

[way2muchcoffee]

There is a date, of course. The election cycle is four years. The next general election is scheduled for late 2011.

[rixalex]

My position is clear... I believe, that for the sake of peace in Thailand, that an election to 'show' the people that they do have a voice is the way forward

It wouldn't be for the sake of peace, it would be for the sake of the red shirts.

The country is peaceful now, granted not without a degree of division and friction, but what guarantees are there that after an election there would be any change in that? I don't think there would. Indeed, if a Thaksin friendly government were formed, as you believe, i think if anything the division and friction that exists now would be amplified ten-fold.

Red shirts need to accept that complaining about the political process that allowed Abhisit to come to power would only have had credibility had they been similarly vocal about the way Samak and Somchai came to power. They weren't. The political process was fine for them until the opposition got in power. Now it's all wrong. Funny that...

'The country is peaceful now' long may it continue... but I fear it will not...

So in fact what you are saying is not so much that there should be elections for the sake of peace, but there should be elections because of the threat of violence from certain minority quarters. Great reasoning to call an election i must say.

And what happens, if as you predict, the reds win an election when it is called and whitewash Thaksin of all criminal charges? Do you not think the yellows might also threaten violence? What would we do then? By your logic, we would call another election. Where would it end?

Edited January 27, 2010 by rixalex