Driving Licence

[Wellington]

Is the Thai five ye/ar licence regarded as INTERNATIONAl fo use in Europe

[gotlost]

It is in the US so I would think its the the same in Europe.

[ScubaBuddha]

As long as it is one of the newer ones with English on it, yes.

[LivinLOS]

Its not an IDP, with the 5 year you can get an IDP (takes about 6 - 8 weeks to come from bangkok)..

I think the new english language license is accepted now in many western countries for a short period, but thats not the same as an IDP for 1 year.

[keestha]

Sorry Wellington I don't want to hijack your thread, but can a licence of this type ( the new English language licence) also be used in Malaysia, if it is only for a short period?

Edited January 24, 2010 by keestha

[gotlost]

The international community have agreed that as long as a drivers license is also in English it shall be excepted by all parties that signed up to the IDP. So all these outfits that are pushing a IDP, GOOD BY.

[LivinLOS]

The international community have agreed that as long as a drivers license is also in English it shall be excepted by all parties that signed up to the IDP. So all these outfits that are pushing a IDP, GOOD BY.

The only places 'pushing' an IDP are accredited auto mobile authorities (AA RAC etc) so perhaps your confusing the IDL and the IDP ??

Secondly do you have a source for the above information ?? Theres certainly no legal basis I have read, lets not forget the purpose of an IDP is also to translate the license into non english / romanized languages, so for them I would doubt an english language license is going to superceed a IDP that puts it in their own script ??

Edited January 24, 2010 by LivinLOS

[schlog]

Sorry Wellington I don't want to hijack your thread, but can a licence of this type ( the new English language licence) also be used in Malaysia, if it is only for a short period?

In Malaysia you can use it without problems, police checked me there 2 times in KL, they smiled and let me passed. No problem.

Be careful in Europe, in some countries you need a real IDL.

[LivinLOS]

Be careful in Europe, in some countries you need a real IDL.

A real IDP...

[ScubaBuddha]

Sorry Wellington I don't want to hijack your thread, but can a licence of this type ( the new English language licence) also be used in Malaysia, if it is only for a short period?

In Malaysia you can use it without problems, police checked me there 2 times in KL, they smiled and let me passed. No problem.

Be careful in Europe, in some countries you need a real IDL.

More accurate to use the term IDP than IDL. IDL is usually associated with the scams sites.

[ScubaBuddha]

Always lots of questions about the IDP/IDL. LivinLos and I have sparred more than once on this issue. I have shifted my position over time from "Never ever get one because they are an utter waste of time and money." to "It's the biggest international tourist scam going. They are largely unnecessary especially if you have a drivers license that is already in English. It depends where you are from and where you will be driving. Some rare circumstances you will need one." In practice I have never heard of someone needing one in Thailand, so my answer there is emphatically don't bother.

My knowledge on this issue comes not just from what I remember being taught to me at an American police academy and as a police officer, but also from doing a whole lot of research I have done online as well as reading and hearing many peoples experiences. Granted I have a bit of an American perspective on it. We were taught that IDP's were just a translation, nothing more, and that any drivers licenses in English were already international licenses by UN convention with or without an accompanying IDP. So that applies to foreigners driving in the US then.

So here is hopefully everything you ever wanted to know (and alot of stuff you don't) about IDP's and IDL's, and both the scam and legit ones, and why I don't think even the legit ones are not necessary in most cases. Now I am not an expert, but it seems even the experts can't all agree on what's what.

The IDP/IDL issue gets easily muddled. The degree of scamyness on the part of those offering them for sale is on a sliding scale ranging from 100% scams to highly misleading to legitimate but still confusing.

First we need to define some terms. IDL, IDP, and IDD (International Drivers License, Permit, and Document) as there is wide confusion about them, even in this thread. All these terms often used interchangeably to mean more or less the same thing, which summed up in a sentence is an official translation of your current valid license into 8 or more languages. The more official sounding "IDL" ("License" being a key word and selling point) is often associated with the scam, pseudo-scam internet offers. The most common, accepted and indeed accurate term, which also corresponds to the language used in the UN's Convention on Road Traffic is "IDP."

UN Convention on Road Traffic: There are three of these (1926, 1949 and 1968) The difference between them is not important. I have yet to see any evidence of a significance between them. Numerous sources confirm that even counties that weren't signatories or that did not officially ratify the acts, and in some cases didn't even attend, still in practice recognize and issue IDP's.

I break down IDP's/IDL's into 3 types:

1) Scam IDL's. First thing you need to know is that there is no such thing as a legal, ligitmate International Drivers License (usually reffered to as an IDL, but also called IDP and IDD by some) which stands alone and by itself grants you permission to drive anywhere, particularly the ones that promise you a clean driving record. Those are 100% scams even though they may cite reference to the UN Conventions. I could not find any such websites with a quick Google search so they might be getting cleaned up, but here is a couple links to snopes.com and a goverment site warning about scam IDL's:

http://drunkdrivingdefense.com/national/in...ers-license.htm

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/scams/license.asp

2)Psuedo-scam IDP's. The second type, and the most visable and well advertised, are those offered by many private companies and individuals, usually translation service companies, which for a fee, (usually many times what a legitimate IDP costs) will sell a very authentic looking IDL, IDP or IDD. They may claim a validity of 2, 5 or even 10 years. (Legit IDP's are valid only 1 year.) These types of IDP's are getting a little closer to legitimate, the main problem being they aren't issued by a government, as they are in Thailand, or a government authorized motoring club such as AA, AAA, RAC as they are in the US, Canada, Austraila and UK. Further complicating issues is that these documents, while not the real Mc Coy, are usually treated as such by police, car rental companies and other officials either because they don't know any better or just don't care. (That's why I call them "psuedo-scam") This is how these companies stay in business. These IDP companies always cite the UN Conventions and also often issue a bogus but authentic looking plastic card with your picture on it. If you like to waste money, buy one of these. If you have been told that you absolutely need an IDP in a hurry, don't have time to get a real one, and don't mind it's ambiguous legitimacy and cost, I suppose it's better than nothing. Possessing one with accurate information is probably not illegal. It might work just fine for you.

Here is what the US State Dept. has to say about them:

International Driving Permits Issued by Unauthorized Persons:

The U.S. Department of State is aware that IDPs are sold over the Internet and in-person by individuals not authorized by the U.S. Department of State pursuant to the requirements of the U.N. Convention on Road Traffic of 1949. Moreover, many of these IDPs are sold for large sums of money, far greater than the sum charged by entities authorized by the Department of State. Consumers experiencing problems should report them to their local office of the U.S. Postal Inspector, Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the Better Business Bureau, or their state or local Attorney General's Office.

This doesn't just apply to the US though. These companies will issue them to anyone, sometimes without even any proof of you owning a valid license!

Examples of unauthorized persons issuing IDP's:

http://www.international-license.com/ This one advertises via Google ads here on Thavisa. They offer a very authentic looking but completely useless (unless you fool the cop or rental co. employee, which again is not so hard) drivers license-looking card. The less impressive looking passport size white paper document is the thing which they are passing off as an IDP. At least they ask you send a copy of your current license.

http://www.fastidl.com/Fast-app.htm This one is fairly scammy as they don't even ask for a copy or proof of a current license. Just show them the $.

http://www.licenseman.com/ Same same.

3) Ligitimate IDP's. True IDP's can only be issued by a government or an organization authorized by a government (most cases an automobile association) and can be valid for only 1 year, or until your home country/states license expires, whichever comes first. Your IDP must be associated with and presented with a valid and current license from a country. They cost about 15usd.

Some legit IDP links and info:

http://www.csaa.com/portal/site/CSAA/menui...xtcurrchannel=1

http://www.aa.co.za/home/travel/internatio...ing_permit.aspx

http://www.aaa.com/vacation/idpc.html

Here is an excellent site which lists who from each country is authorized to issue IDP's.

http://www.drivers.com/article/207

These next two sites which claim to list what counties require an IDP contradict each other and other sources in many places. In addition, it claims that an IDP is required in Thailand. As we all know, that is not how it is in practice, as I suspect it is in many of the counties listed as "required".

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overs...by-country.html

http://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/Int...ng+requirements

I really balk at the use of the word "required" to describe an IDP. Plenty of sources say they are only a "good idea" or "recommended" which I wouldn't disagree with. I would like to hear from anyone that has ever been refused renting a car or hassled by police in any country for not having an IDP. It just doesn't happen. And what of the dozens of countries, like Thailand, that don't speak one of the 8 languages the IDP is translated into? They are going to rely on the most frequently used language internationally, English.

Lots of sources online claim IDP's are required while other sources say they are not. For example, many references say that you need to have one to rent a car in China, but this is directly from Hertz website. I keep seeing Japan and Italy mentioned as two of the toughest for foreign drivers. Indeed it appears in Japan and Italy you will need an IDP. I wouldn't trust taking a pseudo-scam one there.

CHINA

Must have held a Drivers Licence(sic) for at least two years. Valid licence(sic) from country of residence in English. If the licence(sic) is not in English, an International Drivers Permit is also required.

SPAIN

For all Non-European Union renters, it is highly recommended your national driver's license must be accompanied by an International Driving Permit (IDP) In the case of driver's licenses issued by the People's Republic of China, this must be accompanied by a notarized translation instead of an IDP.

ITALY

An International Driver's Permit (IDP) is required for non-European Union renters or if your national driver's licence is not written in a Roman script. According to Italian law, if you are driving without an IDP, the vehicle may be confiscated and you may incur in a Police fine of EUR 112.00 plus the vehicle seizure fee.In the case of driver's licence issued by the People's Republic of China, this must be accompanied by a notarised translation instead of an IDP.

JAPAN

Japanese law requires that all drivers who do not hold a Japanese driver's license MUST hold and International Driving Permit (IDP) issued under the 1949 CONVENTION ON INTERNATIONAL ROAD TRAFFIC. No other IDP will be accepted for rentals in Japan.***VERY IMPORTANT***

IDP MUST be issued under the 1949 Convention on International Road Traffic. NO EXCEPTIONS.

***SPECIAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR FR, GE & SZ***

For customers with driver's licenses issued in France, Germany or Switzerland. If the customer cannot obtain an IDP issued under the 1949 Convention of International Road Traffic, they may obtain an official translation of their home country license from their respective embassies/consulates in Japan. however, this translation Must be obtained BY THE RENTER, PRIOR to the rental. NO EXCEPTIONS.

That's the first I have ever heard of singling out a particular years convention.

Hertz appears to be the best source I have found so far on this. www.hertz.com.

I read in the Phuket Gazette today that, according to an official at the LTD, Thai's must have a DL for 5 years before being allowed an IDP. I have never heard that before and I question if that is how it's done in practice. All the first hand accounts I have read here on Thaivisa have all said the same thing, that an IDP can be issued for a Thai license once you get your 5 year license, i.e. after one year. If the 5 year rule is accurate, this seems to be something Thailand has instituted as I see no similar references to anything like this anywhere else. Nothing is mentioned about whether this applies to foriegners, but maybe not since in many cases, as is in my case, the Thai DL was issued based on my foreign, California one.

So, do you need an IDP to drive in Thailand on a license issued in your home country if it's in English? Defiantly not. I would never waste my time and money getting one because it's simply not needed and is not helpful in any way. (IDP's are not issued in Thai anyway, only Chinese, German, French, Portuguese, Arabic, Russian, Spainish, and French) If you're here a long time, eventually just get a Thai one. They are very easy to get if you have a current DL from home. No exams, neither driving nor written. As I said in the beginning, your DL in English is usually already accepted internationally, even your Thai one.

But, if your license is not in English, or you are going to certain counties with very strict rules like Japan or Italy, an IDP looks like the way to go. Just make sure you get the legit one, it's much cheaper.

IDP:

[LivinLOS]

Thats a really good summary and any disagreement we have is only in the interpretation not the details.

I know for a fact that I needed my IDP to take part in a rally over India.. My home country license was not enough to be 'legal' but not once was I asked to produce it after the registration at the start.

In some countries the IDP is required, not optional. This is especially relating to non romanized language countries.. I will see if I cant find a few if I have time (Vietnam is funny about licensing, I think Russia is also).

I was always told in Thailand you needed either a Thai license or an IDP to be truly legal.. Yes we all know the police let you through a roadblock with a video store membership card but lax enforcement of the law does not mean the law isnt written that way.

Lastly 'legal' on the road means many things, you need to be licensed and insured.. And many insurance companies wont touch a non local license. I know when I travelled the states for a year, even tho my UK license was legal to drive, I could not find any US insurer who would insure me on it, but I could find one that would insure me based on the IDP I had, so to be properly road legal, while I could drive with my UK license only I would have to have piggybacked on a US persons insurance to be 100% 'legal'. Yet with the IDP I was able to be legal on my own.

Personally I carry a cheap, totally non legal, IDL (10 year, comes with book and 2x ID cards).. Reason being its fine in my wallet, works with 3rd world police, you can lose it easily (Or leave with corrupt police pushing you for a bribe) without concern, its basically disposable without worry. I also have my legal home country license, my Thai licenses, and IDP's from both countries kept safe and secure at home. The hassle factor is that the 1 year ones expire so I am sometimes out of date with one or the other.

Incidentally the Thai one (IDP) is not only much more attractive than any other I have had (UK is just grey cardboard, the Thai one is printed in stylish 'thai' patterns) but the 1 year validity is near impossible to find, it is listed on the back out of the way, but you would be real unlucky for it to be noticed.