French Man Arrested For Allegedly Offering Underage Sex Service In Pattaya

[Jingthing]

If he was pimpimg kids he should be in jail .

Few will disagree with that.

[LivinLOS]

"Police Crackdown on Foreign Owned Sex Bars" is scheduled to begin February 16 or before and targets gay bars, beer bars and gogos with bar fines in Pattaya and then possibly in the other cities.

Here is why I read the above as being ONLY about gay establishments.

Consider this sentence --

The mayor has ordered that purple houses, buildings, huts, and bus shelters be painted orange within the next 30 days.

How would you read that? That the huts he is talking about are now purple or not?

Its obviously ALL of the above..

The fact theres been raids at the exact same few days in a totally different part of the country, to hetro soapies should make this clear..

Only you seem to think this is some anti gay purge !!

[bilinlos]

Not defending the bar owners who do this. I would love to see it wiped out. I am questioning the scapegoating ONLY of gay establishments. That seems political, and it stinks.

It's such a shame that Farang do such despicable things. And so reassuring to know that Thai owners would never be involved in such terrible business.

It is a shame that he was doing such a thing, I hope they hang him. However I am sure that Thai and Farang pimps alike sell kids. This is not a race issue rather a pure lack of any morals.

There is much more to this than meets the eye. Every cop in Pattaya knows what goes on there. They all are getting a bit of a kickback to look the other way. This guy has done someting to make someone mad to inform the FBI as informing the Pattaya police would do nothing. I agree they need to clean it all and get ride of the Farangs and Thais pimping the underage boys and girls out. This is not exclusive to gay or stratigh bars.

[caulfield2]

I seriously DOUBT the FBI was actually "on the ground" here in Thailand. That's beyond their jurisdiction, and it's certainly not the CIA!!!

The only connection with the FBI was the child pornography exchanges of photos, advertising and solicitation over the Internet to "US customers," at least that's my reading of it.

It doesn't matter what agencies (Interpol, FBI, etc.) are co-operating, as long as they're working together, it will get more of these predators off the streets.

Some additional charges for such activities outside of Thailand (violations of interstate commerce, for example, in the US) will be added on to the list to get the biggest sentence possible.

[LivinLOS]

In Thailand, the consent age for PAID sex is 18.

In Thailand PAID sex is forbidden by law at all ages.

But carries much higher penalites with under 18 than over 18.

My understanding of Thai law..

15 years old is the age of consent for non P4P with the parents permission.. This is how money paid to parents can buy out of crimes and how 15 year olds can 'marry' in the villages without punishment. this law means 2 16 year olds dont have problems as long as the parents dont smell money, if they do they can make sin sot / virginity payment demands to the boys family and push legal action to make it forthcoming.

18 years old is the age of consent for the person without parental backing.

18 years old to work P4P but

20 years old to be in a bar other then your employer if in the P4P trade..

[South]

Stay classy Pattaya!

:D

[Roachiebkk]

could I ask how old some of the above posters were when they first had sex?

Hmmm do you mean.......with another person or by myself? if its the latter then stick me down as 8, hee hee

Edited January 27, 2010 by Roachiebkk

[Tokay]

There are so many under aged boys and girls working in Pataya as well as Bangkok that it is almost unbelievable.

The only way to get rid of this problem is to close bars down that employ under-aged staff and blacklist the owners to make it impossible for them to do it again.

It is a very difficult problem to eradicate because many of the bars in Pataya and Bangkok supply their under aged staff with false ID cards and instruct them to tell the customers they are over 18.

Furthermore some (Farang as well as Thai) friends of mine own establishments in Chiangmai, Bangkok and Pataya and they are kindly tipped in advance before a raid takes place.

This is part of the service they receive from police for paying their monthly bribes.

Didn't they try some ID card system a few years ago in the bars? All staff had to register somewhere and display some sort of card?

I doubt it lasted more than a week, but I do recall reading something about it.

[basjke]

Your example reads as of purple houses will be painted orange.But it reads in now way that buildings,huts and bus shelters also have to be purple to fall in the category to be repainted orange.

Well, you are wrong. Are you a native English speaker? In the example of the purple houses, it would actually be IMPROPER to write --

purple houses, purple buildings, purple huts, and purple bus shelters.

Any editor of even basic skill would EDIT that to

purple houses, buildings, huts, and bus shelters.

The meaning is clearly that all it the nouns after the first purple adjective are ALSO purple.

No I'm no native English speaker but I understand the explanation you make in the case of your example.

So if you like to go that way then explain why the same editor would write the same thing several times in different wordings or can you explain what is the difference between a gay bar and a gay beer bar.

I certainly know the difference between a gay bar and a beer bar.

[LivinLOS]

Exactly.. Someone that can read !!!

Regarding the announced crackdown in Pattaya in February, failing the requested clarification of the unclear text written by the lawyer guy, we shall see how this all comes down, when it happens.

Read the full text not one line where you modify the punctuation to make a point that isnt there.

Police Crackdown On Foreign Operated Sex Bars

PATTAYA: -- Informed sources from several police divisions have told the Pattaya Times that a very serious crackdown will begin next month to catch foreign business people who are financial backers of gay bars, beer bars and a go-gos where there is sex for sale in Pattaya.

These bars charge a "bar fine" to the customer and let the employee leave for the night or a "short time" usually about two to three hours. It is suspected that many of these rendezvous are sexually related, police said. Police investigations will determine who pays the bills and gets the profits. If the person is a foreigner then their visa will be revoked and they will be expelled from the Kingdom. If it is a Thai they will be arrested if sex is for sale. There is much concern about organized crime in the nightlife venues, said one official.

"Where did the money come from? Who is behind it? Where does the money go?" asked one policechief rhetorically.

In a related matter, there will be an Interpol office opening in Pattaya to help catch more than 2,000 foreigners wanted in Thailand on various charges.

"Keep in mind, Thais are pretty easy to find compared to foreigners, Thais have a mandatory National ID Card and associated number with a microchip of their history on the card. They must be registered in a

House Book so that at all times there is someone who can say where the person is living if the police want to talk with them. This crackdown on foreigners built up to this point because it is relatively easy for us to disappear in the villages and big cities. Or to simply leave the country," said Drew Noyes of PAPPA Legal Services in Pattaya.

"I advise anyone who has invested in a bar that might be suspected of illegal acts to clear up the problem and make sure they are not associated with any business that is engaged in illegal activities. The Thai police are taking this very seriously. Sure, in the past we have heard rumors of crackdowns, but I don't think we have ever seen a crackdown like the one that is about to happen," said Drew Noyes, former three-term Expat Club leader and 13 year resident.

"There are many bars that we foreigners like to go to relax and part of the attraction of Pattaya is this nightlife. If everyone will make sure that nothing offensive to Thai culture occurs inside these places and no foreigner is associated managerially or financially by a paper trail with these clubs then this crackdown may not cause many people problems. It is great to see the police crackdown on underage sex, drugs and many of the associate problems that come with the bar business, but it is important that foreigners know the law and make sure bars they are invested in are not under scrutiny by the police for prostitution. There are ways to protect yourself now," Managing Director of the Pattaya Times Drew Noyes added.

-- Pattaya Times

It is clearly taking about the night life scene in its entirety.. Any sane person would read it that way and not some anti gay crusade.. I fail to see how you can deduce that from the above article at all...

[sharecropper]

QUOTE

ME: But common sense tells me it is a clampdown on both gay and straight bars.

[YOU: b]Interesting. By common sense do you mean heterosexual sense? The common heterosexual perspective is that the entire world is heterosexual unless specific mention is made otherwise. [/b]

Jingthing my sexual orientation has nothing to do with my common-sense construction of this wording.

You are in danger of turning into the world's first Hsyterosexual.

[Acharn]

In Thailand, the consent age for PAID sex is 18.

In Thailand PAID sex is forbidden by law at all ages.

This is wrong.

The 1960 act on suppression of prostitution has been repealed by the 1996 act.

Read it, nowhere is being said that accepting money in exchange for sex is forbidden.

Perhaps you misremember from what the NGOs were urging during 1996. If you check out ThaiLaws.com you will see:

"prostitution" means sexual intercourse, or any other act, or the commission of any other act in order to gratify the sexual desire of another person in a promiscuous manner in return for money or any other benefit, irrespective of whether the person who accepts the act and the person who commits the act are of the same sex or not;

...

"Section 5.

Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, introduces herself or himself to, follows or importunes a person in a street, public place or any other place in an open and shameless manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht.

Section 6.

Any person who associates with another person in a prostitution establishment for the purpose of prostitution of himself or herself or another person shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht or to both.

If the offence under paragraph one is committed on account of compulsion or under an influence which cannot be avoided or resisted, the offender is not guilty."

The part that this discussion is concerned with is:

"Section 8.

Any person who, in order to gratify his or hersexual desire or that ofanother person, has sexual intercourse or acts otherwise against a person over fifteen but not over eighteen years of age in a prostitution establishment, with or without his or her consent, shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of one to three years and to a fine of twenty thousand to sixty thousand Baht.

If the offence under paragraph one is committed in relation to a child not over fifteen years of age, the offender shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of two to six years and to a fine of forty thousand to one hundred twenty thousand Baht.

If the act under paragraph one is committed in relation to one's own spouse, and not to gratify the sexual desire of another person, the offender is not guilty."

So prostitution is illegal. I remember in December 1996, when the law was promulgated, some people were unhappy about Section 5 and especially Section 6, and some NGO (and, of course, the cops) said, "Well, we needed to have the power to arrest them so we could help them."

[Lancashirelad]

Not defending the bar owners who do this. I would love to see it wiped out. I am questioning the scapegoating ONLY of gay establishments. That seems political, and it stinks.

Jinthing, please can you point me to where it refers to ONLY gay establishments?

Could it be the way you are reading?

is scheduled to begin February 16 or before and targets gay bars, beer bars and gogos with bar fines in Pattaya

Try it this way: gay bars AND beer bars AND Go Go's

[LivinLOS]

The part that this discussion is concerned with is:

"Section 8.

Any person who, in order to gratify his or hersexual desire or that ofanother person, has sexual intercourse or acts otherwise against a person over fifteen but not over eighteen years of age in a prostitution establishment, with or without his or her consent, shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of one to three years and to a fine of twenty thousand to sixty thousand Baht.

If the offence under paragraph one is committed in relation to a child not over fifteen years of age, the offender shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of two to six years and to a fine of forty thousand to one hundred twenty thousand Baht.

If the act under paragraph one is committed in relation to one's own spouse, and not to gratify the sexual desire of another person, the offender is not guilty."

So prostitution is illegal. I remember in December 1996, when the law was promulgated, some people were unhappy about Section 5 and especially Section 6, and some NGO (and, of course, the cops) said, "Well, we needed to have the power to arrest them so we could help them."

Firstly I thought the law was 18..

But that section basically spells it out for 15 - 18 and under 15 but NOT for over 18 ??

[jobsworth]

I wonder if all or some of you that are replying ask the person you take with you, home or to your rooms, for a ID card to make sure the girl/boy is over 18 and not 17 years and 11 months and 29 days old ?

I wander if the ID card is in fact the ID card of the girl/boy

and not another ID card borrowed from an older friend.

[BlueSmurf]

Can someone who is informed tell me what the clampdown is aimed at achieving? Is it to close all bars and gogo's that have ladies or men working that can be barfined? How far will they go? Is there a official line or quote on this?

Jingthing do you know?

[stevemac]

I wonder if all or some of you that are replying ask the person you take with you, home or to your rooms, for a ID card to make sure the girl/boy is over 18 and not 17 years and 11 months and 29 days old ?

It really should be black and white as far as whether they get charged. The difference should be in the sentencing. i.e. what calibre bullet to use!

[manarak]

So prostitution is illegal. I remember in December 1996, when the law was promulgated, some people were unhappy about Section 5 and especially Section 6, and some NGO (and, of course, the cops) said, "Well, we needed to have the power to arrest them so we could help them."

I don't agree with that.

Section 5 is all about sollicitation, and the sollicitation has to be done in an open and shameless manner or cause nuisance to the public to be punishable.

Section 6 goes after pimps. "association" is to be read in business sense, meaning it is illegal to form a business around prostituting oneself and/or others.

So, PAID sex is not illegal as long as it is done discreetly and outside from "prostitution establishments".

Edited January 27, 2010 by manarak

[Eddy1960]

It's such a shame that Farang do such despicable things. And so reassuring to know that Thai owners would never be involved in such terrible business.

i think you are jooking no?

[MUYTHAI]

There are so many under aged boys and girls working in Pataya as well as Bangkok that it is almost unbelievable.

The only way to get rid of this problem is to close bars down that employ under-aged staff and blacklist the owners to make it impossible for them to do it again.

It is a very difficult problem to eradicate because many of the bars in Pataya and Bangkok supply their under aged staff with false ID cards and instruct them to tell the customers they are over 18.

Furthermore some (Farang as well as Thai) friends of mine own establishments in Chiangmai, Bangkok and Pataya and they are kindly tipped in advance before a raid takes place.

This is part of the service they receive from police for paying their monthly bribes.

How do you know that there are MANY under-aged people working as prostitutes in Pattaya? In general, healthy Thais look approx. 10 years younger than women of the same age in the USA. In general, Thais look younger even if just based on a womans face... because a petite and not over weight body will also make a woman look younger. I see 19 year old women in the US that look like they are 30 if compared to an average Thai. Presently, the young women in the US look much older than women of the same age did 15 years ago. Maybe it is due to plastic molecules or hormones consumed in US food. When newbies come to LOS and they SEE an "under-aged" woman with a 30 year old man, the woman might acually be 30 years old. My last Thai girlfriend was 33 years old. I saw her ID, college diploma, etc. My sister in the States saw photos of my Thai GF and she thought my Thai GF was 19. I have seen Thai women in their 30's that could pass as a high school student in the US. It is freaky. My point is this (especially to newbies to Thailand and the politically correct farang women who are jealous and angry when they see a farang with Thai woman that is "too young"): don't assume anything before you know the facts!

[Considered Opinion]

It is a shame that he was doing such a thing, I hope they hang him. However I am sure that Thai and Farang pimps alike sell kids. This is not a race issue rather a pure lack of any morals.

Guilty as charged. As reported. As usual.

I agree. You do have a Phuketlife.

[OxfordWill]

Not defending the bar owners who do this. I would love to see it wiped out. I am questioning the scapegoating ONLY of gay establishments. That seems political, and it stinks.

Dont be so sensitive. They announced one on Gay bars. Then they announced one on all sex bars. Then they raided some soapies, then they rounded up 50 odd street walking girls. There've been more reports in the media of action against non gay places than on gay places. Hardly gays being singled out is it?

[ukrules]

I have heard this sort of reasoning used to justify sleeping with 16 and 17 year olds, of which there are apparently some, in the brothels and red light districts of BKK.

Of course it's completely legal to have sex with a 16 or 17 year old in many, many countries around the world including European countries like the UK, many countries are lower than this.

In Spain there is a bizarre law stating that the age of consent is 13 unless 'deceit' is used, whatever that means; it's distasteful anyway.

[MUYTHAI]

"prostitution" means sexual intercourse, or any other act, or the commission of any other act in order to gratify the sexual desire of another person in a promiscuous manner in return for money or any other benefit, irrespective of whether the person who accepts the act and the person who commits the act are of the same sex or not;

...

"Section 5.

Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, introduces herself or himself to, follows or importunes a person in a street, public place or any other place in an open and shameless manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht.

Section 6.

Any person who associates with another person in a prostitution establishment for the purpose of prostitution of himself or herself or another person shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht or to both.

If the offence under paragraph one is committed on account of compulsion or under an influence which cannot be avoided or resisted, the offender is not guilty.

The part that this discussion is concerned with is:

"Section 8.

Any person who, in order to gratify his or hersexual desire or that ofanother person, has sexual intercourse or acts otherwise against a person over fifteen but not over eighteen years of age in a prostitution establishment, with or without his or her consent, shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of one to three years and to a fine of twenty thousand to sixty thousand Baht.

If the offence under paragraph one is committed in relation to a child not over fifteen years of age, the offender shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of two to six years and to a fine of forty thousand to one hundred twenty thousand Baht.

If the act under paragraph one is committed in relation to one's own spouse, and not to gratify the sexual desire of another person, the offender is not guilty."

So prostitution is illegal. I remember in December 1996, when the law was promulgated, some people were unhappy about Section 5 and especially Section 6, and some NGO (and, of course, the cops) said, "Well, we needed to have the power to arrest them so we could help them."

From what I read, it seems one will not be imprisoned if the prostitutes (between 15 and 18 y.o.) are pulled from anywhere besides a "prostitution establishment". Am I wrong?

I am attracted to women that look younger than me and also women that look my age. Attractive women in their 30's can be very sexy, but I would not turn down an 18 year old either. That being said, I do not understand why a person in their 20's would knowingly want to have sex with a 14, etc. year old. An 18, 19, 20 y.o. looks about the same and and is legal. I don't understand...but know people have different preferences. Just stay legal and grab the 18 y.o. or whatever the legal age is. And, yes, I do know that women can have fake IDs, etc....that is why I use the word "knowingly".

Any adult that knowingly wants to have sex with a prepubescent person is a paedophile and needs to be locked up! Also, anyone (pimps, bar owners, etc.) who "holds" a prostitute against their will in ANY way needs to be locked up! And any parents who pimp out their children need to be dealt with harshly! Remember though, many women (even under-age) prostitute out without their family's knowledge.

Edited January 27, 2010 by MUYTHAI

[JetsetBkk]

From Kathu Police Superintendent Col Grissak Songmoonnak:

The bottom line is that if she is over 18, agreements are kept and she is not being forced to do anything against her own free will, then there is nothing to worry about when it comes to the law.

[Dap]

I believe he means to infer that JT is keeping the thread "on track".

Are you Gay?

Does that matter?

Thanks to Jingthing for keeping this thread on the rails

I am not familiar with that term. On the rails, that is, I know what gay is. I don't think you are speaking about trains.

[manarak]

"prostitution" means sexual intercourse, or any other act, or the commission of any other act in order to gratify the sexual desire of another person in a promiscuous manner in return for money or any other benefit, irrespective of whether the person who accepts the act and the person who commits the act are of the same sex or not;

...

"Section 5.

Any person who, for the purpose of prostitution, solicits, induces, introduces herself or himself to, follows or importunes a person in a street, public place or any other place in an open and shameless manner or causes nuisance to the public, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht.

Section 6.

Any person who associates with another person in a prostitution establishment for the purpose of prostitution of himself or herself or another person shall be liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding one month or to a fine not exceeding one thousand Baht or to both.

If the offence under paragraph one is committed on account of compulsion or under an influence which cannot be avoided or resisted, the offender is not guilty.

The part that this discussion is concerned with is:

"Section 8.

Any person who, in order to gratify his or hersexual desire or that ofanother person, has sexual intercourse or acts otherwise against a person over fifteen but not over eighteen years of age in a prostitution establishment, with or without his or her consent, shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of one to three years and to a fine of twenty thousand to sixty thousand Baht.

If the offence under paragraph one is committed in relation to a child not over fifteen years of age, the offender shall be liable to imprisonment for a term of two to six years and to a fine of forty thousand to one hundred twenty thousand Baht.

If the act under paragraph one is committed in relation to one's own spouse, and not to gratify the sexual desire of another person, the offender is not guilty."

So prostitution is illegal. I remember in December 1996, when the law was promulgated, some people were unhappy about Section 5 and especially Section 6, and some NGO (and, of course, the cops) said, "Well, we needed to have the power to arrest them so we could help them."

From what I read, it seems one will not be imprisoned if the prostitutes (between 15 and 18 y.o.) are pulled from anywhere besides a "prostitution establishment". Am I wrong?

I am attracted to women that look younger than me and also women that look my age. Attractive women in their 30's can be very sexy, but I would not turn down an 18 year old either. That being said, I do not understand why a person in their 20's would knowingly want to have sex with a 14, etc. year old. An 18, 19, 20 y.o. looks about the same and and is legal. I don't understand...but know people have different preferences. Just stay legal and grab the 18 y.o. or whatever the legal age is. And, yes, I do know that women can have fake IDs, etc....that is why I use the word "knowingly".

Any adult that knowingly wants to have sex with a prepubescent person is a paedophile and needs to be locked up! Also, anyone (pimps, bar owners, etc.) who "holds" a prostitute against their will in ANY way needs to be locked up! And any parents who pimp out their children need to be dealt with harshly! Remember though, many women (even under-age) prostitute out without their family's knowledge.

Sorry, MUYTHAI, you are wrong.

over 15 and under 18 is regulated also by the penal code.

Sex with people that age is an offense, regardless if prostitution is involved or not, therefore the offense is not included in the prostitution act.

Penal Code Amendment Act of 1997 Section 283bis:

“Section 283 bis. Whoever brings a person over fifteen years but not yet over

eighteen years of age for an indecent sexual purpose, even with the consent of that person,

shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding five years, or a fine not exceeding ten

thousand baht, or both.

If the commission of the offence in the first paragraph is committed against a person

not yet over fifteen years of age, the offender shall be punished with imprisonment not

exceeding seven years, or a fine not exceeding fourteen thousand baht, or both.

Whoever conceals the person who was brought away as provided in the first, or

second paragraph, shall be punished with the punishment accordingly provided in the first, or

second paragraph.

The commission of the offence as provided in the first and third paragraph against a

person over fifteen years of age is the compoundable offence.”

Edited January 27, 2010 by manarak

[roygsd]

It ISNT against only gay establishments so dont make it divisive.

Please get some background BEFORE you post. This gay crackdown has been ANNOUNCED.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3291897

Please note in the recent breaking news in the Pattaya Times newspaper and on www.pattaya-times.com (and maybe on your website) that this action detailed in the article "Police Crackdown on Foreign Owned Sex Bars" is scheduled to begin February 16 or before and targets gay bars, beer bars and gogos with bar fines in Pattaya and then possibly in the other cities.

An earlier posting refers to boys from the age of 12 upwards being available as some of the establishments, and you are protesting that this is the start of a homophobia crusade? I think its time you headed back home for a reality check

Theres nowt so queer as folk.................

roygsd

[roygsd]

It ISNT against only gay establishments so dont make it divisive.

Please get some background BEFORE you post. This gay crackdown has been ANNOUNCED.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=3291897

Please note in the recent breaking news in the Pattaya Times newspaper and on www.pattaya-times.com (and maybe on your website) that this action detailed in the article "Police Crackdown on Foreign Owned Sex Bars" is scheduled to begin February 16 or before and targets gay bars, beer bars and gogos with bar fines in Pattaya and then possibly in the other cities.

An earlier posting refers to boys from the age of 12 upwards being available as some of the establishments, and you are protesting that this is the start of a homophobia crusade? I think its time you headed back home for a reality check

Theres nowt so queer as folk.................

roygsd

Sorry for the error, my earlier comment was in response to jingthing not l o s

roy gsd

[kimamey]

Just to clarify is it illegal to have sex with someone who is under 18? In the UK it's 16 with some exceptions. Or maybe it's the prostitution that's illegal under 18.