Army Shows Force Against Khattiya

[webfact]

ROGUE OFFICER

Discipline vs disobedience

By The Nation

Published on January 28, 2010

BANGKOK: -- Is there a hidden message behind the Army's unusual show of force against 'rogue' officer Khattiya?

On the surface yesterday, it looked like the Army was trying to send a stern message to one rogue officer.

However, unprecedented gatherings at Prachin Buri military camps coupled with other shows of support for Army chief Anupong Paochinda may be an indirect warning to supporters of ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra as Thailand edges toward "judgement day".

The manoeuvring was too big to be targeted only at Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdipol, whose already-sour relations with Anupong reached a new low last week when he became a prime suspect in an obscure "grenade attack" on Army headquarters in the wee hours of January 15. The show of force seemed to serve as an ominous warning to any group plotting turmoil during this crucial period of Thai politics, observers said.

Officers from both the Second Infantry Division and the Second Infantry Regiment gathered at their Promyothee and Jakkapong camps, respectively, in Prachin Buri province to declare allegiance to their superiors, commit themselves to discipline and denounce disobedience and lack of respect for Army leaders.

Banners adorning one of the gatherings said soldiers lacking discipline or respect for their superiors did not belong to the Army.

"The Army's reputation has been damaged by the very bad example of certain soldiers who disrespect the cherished tradition and may threaten unity of the institution," said Maj-General Varis Rojpakdi, head of the Second Infantry Division.

"We'd like to give moral support to the Army commander-in-chief and other superiors at all levels in their commitment to protect our Kingdom's key institutions."

A similar gathering by about 600 officers took place at the 12th Infantry Regiment headquarters in Sa Kaew province.

"We gathered today to take a stand that professional soldiers must have discipline, because otherwise they'd be no different from bandits," said Colonel Thammanoon Vithi, deputy commander of the 12 Infantry Regiment.

Meanwhile, at the 11th Infantry Regiment, plans are under way to bring battalion commanders to the greater Bangkok area to declare allegiance to the Army and denounce Khattiya.

"Of course, we can be democratic in the military, but you should not insult your superiors like that," said Major Apirat Kongsompong, head of the 11th Infantry Regiment.

"Brother Daeng [Khattiya's nickname] should stop exploiting his uniform. He should take it off, wear a suit and tie and formally enter politics."

In arguably the most conspicuous development of the day, Anupong and Khattiya both appeared at the Armed Forces Academies Preparatory School for a sacred reunion ceremony that brought many top brass together.

Nothing happened, but the tension was palpable as Anupong and Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwan shot Khattiya a stern glance while walking past a main hall to a reception room.

Khattiya gave a short, characteristically belligerent interview deploring his suspension before being escorted away from reporters.

At Fourth Cavalry Battalion headquarters in Bangkok's Kiakkai sub-district, restrictions became tougher for Khattiya, who now cannot access his living quarters without being thoroughly searched and guards notifying senior officers of his arrival. Other areas in the headquarters were off-limits to him.

Police raided Khattiya's residence and the living quarters of his aide last Thursday. The raids followed the grenade attack the previous Friday morning targeting the office of Army Chief Anupong at the Army Headquarters on Rajdamnoen Nok Avenue. The alleged attack followed several shows of hostility by Khattiya towards Anupong.

The strained relations are a result of Khattiya's open support for Thaksin and his recent meetings with the fugitive ex-prime minister.

The Thaksin connection contributed to speculation that the Army's show of force yesterday was aimed at not only Khattiya, but also the ousted Thai leader, who is bracing himself for a potentially explosive Supreme Court verdict on February 26.

At stake is Thaksin's frozen Bt76 billion that could be permanently seized by the state if the court rules it to be ill-gotten gains.

"The Army gatherings were unprecedented and not likely to have been aimed at only one man," said one military analyst.

"Of course, the manoeuvrings confirm Khattiya is now an outcast, but in the big picture this looks like a message that the Army is united and ready to deal with any plan to create trouble."

-- The Nation 2010-01-28

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[animatic]

Another shot across the bows of Thaksins pseudo 'ship of state' plans.

[givenall]

Another shot across the bows of Thaksins pseudo 'ship of state' plans.

I think (I hope) all these are for the perpetration of Feb 29 verdict and looks bad for Mr. T.

Thinks will be more clear after the verdict which I think should have come out sooner than later, will make it very clear to the Mr. T and his friends that they are no longer in power and better adjust their attitude

[mca]

"Of course, we can be democratic in the military, but the civilian population should remember that this democracy only extends as far as the barrack gates. After that all bets are off " said Major Apirat Kongsompong, head of the 11th Infantry Regiment.

Sounds about right.

"The Army's reputation has been damaged by the very bad example of certain soldiers who disrespect the cherished tradition and may threaten unity of the institution," said Maj-General Varis Rojpakdi, head of the Second Infantry Division.

Not even worthy of comment.

[Thai at Heart]

But his superiors have hardly shown much of an example in the last 70 odd years.

Brother Daeng [Khattiya's nickname] should stop exploiting his uniform. He should take it off, wear a suit and tie and formally enter politics."

They have proven more than happy to enter politics repeatedly without bothering to take off their uniforms or put down their guns.

[craigt3365]

But his superiors have hardly shown much of an example in the last 70 odd years.

Brother Daeng [Khattiya's nickname] should stop exploiting his uniform. He should take it off, wear a suit and tie and formally enter politics."

They have proven more than happy to enter politics repeatedly without bothering to take off their uniforms or put down their guns.

I find it interesting that when you see pics of some people in politics they are wearing military style dress uniforms. Shoulder boards, medals, etc. Makes you really think this is a military run country. Heck, even school teachers wear that stuff! Crazy....

[Thai at Heart]

But his superiors have hardly shown much of an example in the last 70 odd years.

Brother Daeng [Khattiya's nickname] should stop exploiting his uniform. He should take it off, wear a suit and tie and formally enter politics."

They have proven more than happy to enter politics repeatedly without bothering to take off their uniforms or put down their guns.

I find it interesting that when you see pics of some people in politics they are wearing military style dress uniforms. Shoulder boards, medals, etc. Makes you really think this is a military run country. Heck, even school teachers wear that stuff! Crazy....

I too found it a bit confusing to see "civil" service uniforms with boards and medals. It, for about 1 millisecond, makes you think that the civil service is run with military precision.

Have often asked my missus what you can get a gong for? Superior services to paper shuffling? Going beyond the call of duty in wielding the "chop".

[Changian]

But his superiors have hardly shown much of an example in the last 70 odd years.

Brother Daeng [Khattiya's nickname] should stop exploiting his uniform. He should take it off, wear a suit and tie and formally enter politics."

They have proven more than happy to enter politics repeatedly without bothering to take off their uniforms or put down their guns.

Even more ironic given that Major Apirat is commander of the 11th Infantry that played an active role in the 2006 coup. ,

[boris52]

This country has really gone downhill over the last 3 or so years after the mmilitary s intervention into politics.

The generals have had a taste of power once again and they are hungry for more and more of it.

[doctormann]

But his superiors have hardly shown much of an example in the last 70 odd years.

Brother Daeng [Khattiya's nickname] should stop exploiting his uniform. He should take it off, wear a suit and tie and formally enter politics."

They have proven more than happy to enter politics repeatedly without bothering to take off their uniforms or put down their guns.

I find it interesting that when you see pics of some people in politics they are wearing military style dress uniforms. Shoulder boards, medals, etc. Makes you really think this is a military run country. Heck, even school teachers wear that stuff! Crazy....

I too found it a bit confusing to see "civil" service uniforms with boards and medals. It, for about 1 millisecond, makes you think that the civil service is run with military precision.

Have often asked my missus what you can get a gong for? Superior services to paper shuffling? Going beyond the call of duty in wielding the "chop".

All those military style uniforms just make me think, 'Banana Republic.' Also, whenever election posters are displayed with the candidates wearing all their medals I tend to think, 'Would I buy a used car from ... ?'

DM

[animatic]

LOL you just keep on like the energizer bunny.

I did expect this kind of posting, but it is still funny to see it.

This country has really gone downhill over the last 3 or so years after the mmilitary s intervention into politics.

The generals have had a taste of power once again and they are hungry for more and more of it.

The one with the biggest lust for that fleeting 'Taste of Power' is ddDr. ttThaksin of course.

Armys by their very nature are NEVER democratic entities.

But they should in the final reckoning answer to Democratically elected civilians.

Never disputed that.

Thing is here it seems the elected officials are as, or more, corrupt than the army,

and lack even the fundamentals of discipline to boot. Even their early manhood military

conscription training seems to be lost on them by middle age....

So it seems this army won't answer to those less disciplined, and that makes for a slippery slope.

Still Sae Daeng has pushed way beyond the envelope and is sanctionible for sure.

He should remove the uniform and just become a politician... enough nutters there so he can blend in well.

Edited January 28, 2010 by animatic

[hammered]

This country has really gone downhill over the last 3 or so years after the mmilitary s intervention into politics.

The generals have had a taste of power once again and they are hungry for more and more of it.

Actually if yo ufollow Thai politcs and look at closely at the current manouvers and why they are happening it is apparent that

the military dont want to run the country

the military will however likely do a coup if certain things happen even though they would prefer not to. the risk of that though has now receded for the immediate future

the military are becoming more united than they were a month or so ago even allowing for the red side intitiative to destabliise them which has kind of backfired

the Dems have patched up their very shaky relationship with the military but to do so have upset their parliamentary allies but to very differing degrees

the coalition allies excepting possibly CTP likely wont desert the government

Thai politcs is a lot more nuanced than side A wants this. Every event in the past few weeks has been connected and part of a multi dimensional chess game palyed by at least 4-6 players. Meanwhile the people remain as observers

[animatic]

3D-4D-5D chess is an apt analogy for Thai Politics.

[Ricardo]

Another shot across the bows of Thaksins pseudo 'ship of state' plans.

Would it perhaps be appropriate, for that pseudo-ship to be registered in Somalia, perhaps ?

This country has really gone downhill over the last 3 or so years after the mmilitary s intervention into politics.

The generals have had a taste of power once again and they are hungry for more and more of it.

Sorry but I cannot agree.

If the military were really hungry for direct-power, then they were given the perfect opportunity (deliberately ?) by Thaksin's Red-Songkran last April, but instead they responded with measured support for the elected-government. Credit to Gen. Anupong for that.

Imagine what might have happened, if someone truly power-mad had been in charge, there might well have been real justification for DL's claimed hundreds of deaths. But he spoke too soon. In fact the military behaved better than he had expected or hoped.

With only two military-coups in two decades, 1992 and 2006, the military should be credited with seeming to realise, that direct-power is not the way forward. The OP reports events which ought to have the positive effect, of reminding them where their true loyalty is supposed to lie.

I only hope it helps deter those still-undecided in the face of the increasingly-desperate agitation coming from Dubai, or Cambodia or wherever, as the current court-case moves to its end.

[prine]

ROGUE OFFICER

It's high time this Army officer is put under control. He's broken so many rules of military law that in just about every other country, he would have been put in the stockade ages ago.

[webfact]

UPDATE

Khattiya in defiance of Army discipline

BANGKOK: -- Maj General Khattiya "Seh Daeng" Sawasdipol on Thursday hit back at the peerage campaign to denounce his breaking ranks, saying certain officers want to step on him in order to secure promotions.

"I think certain commanders want to please their superiors with the hope of getting promoted to the rank of general," he said.

Khattiya was reacting to today's move by a group of 11 regimental commanders to rally behind Army chief General Anupong Paochinda and reprimand him for criticising Anupong's leadership.

-- The Nation 2010-01-28

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[hammered]

ROGUE OFFICER

It's high time this Army officer is put under control. He's broken so many rules of military law that in just about every other country, he would have been put in the stockade ages ago.

While court cases and convictions and formal stuff may not be forthcoming or not in a long time, Sae Daeng has just lost a lot of face. He is no longer even allowed into his home base without a search. Soldiers and especially high ranking ones are always allowed to use their home base as a safe house when in trouble. He has just been ejected as part of the family and very publically. In Thai politics a macho scary image goes a long way too and Sae Daeng has cultivated this image very well until now when it seems nobody is suddenly scared of him.

It also seems he has just undermined Thaksin's attempt to neutralise the military as a political force by attracting old retired generals assumed to have connections in the serving military.

I doubt too much foraml will happen anytime soon but in its own way the military have inflicted a few damaging hits on Sae Daeng and undermined his reputation and what he purported to bring to the red side.

Interesting to watch as an observer

[animatic]

Khattiya in defiance of Army discipline

The guy is certifiable.

Armies are based on discipling and hierarchy of rank.

That is the PRIMARY way it functions, without it, it can be no more than a band of brigands.

So to call this peerage is just idiotic, it is 'an army', discipline is the way it functions,

flouting that and gross insubordination, as Sae Daeng is doing, in most all armies is a

stockade and cashiering infraction. If it were in battle it would be a shoot on sight infraction.

insubordination in battle is not taken lightly.

Edited January 28, 2010 by animatic

[geriatrickid]

Another shot across the bows of Thaksins pseudo 'ship of state' plans.

Again, you are so very predictable. What's a post from you without a reference to Mr. Thaksin?

How about you condemning those members of the military that have actively campaigned,while in uniform, against Mr. Thaksin?

The Army's reputation has been damaged by the very bad example of certain soldiers who disrespect the cherished tradition and may threaten unity of the institution," said Maj-General Varis Rojpakdi, head of the Second Infantry Division.

I wonder what his views are in respect to the military's overthrow of an elected government?

"We gathered today to take a stand that professional soldiers must have discipline, because otherwise they'd be no different from bandits," said Colonel Thammanoon Vithi, deputy commander of the 12 Infantry Regiment.

Quite true. Why not start with enforcing the law within the officer corps? There should be no use of military assets for personal gain and there should be no tolerance of bribery or payoffs. How about that Colonel?

Of course, we can be democratic in the military, but you should not insult your superiors like that," said Major Apirat Kongsompong, head of the 11th Infantry Regiment.

The military is not a democratic institution. In developed and civil societies, the military is accountable to the democratically government. Even in those countries with Elizabeth II as monarch and where she is the head of state with the military pledging loyalty to her, the military still heeds the wishes of the people as expressed by the elected government.

Brother Daeng [Khattiya's nickname] should stop exploiting his uniform. He should take it off, wear a suit and tie and formally enter politics."

Agreed, but does the same hold true for those that are adherents of the "yellow" side? How about this: There should be no political activity whilst in uniform, or as a representative of the military. Won't happen, will it?

[givenall]

But his superiors have hardly shown much of an example in the last 70 odd years.

Brother Daeng [Khattiya's nickname] should stop exploiting his uniform. He should take it off, wear a suit and tie and formally enter politics."

They have proven more than happy to enter politics repeatedly without bothering to take off their uniforms or put down their guns.

I find it interesting that when you see pics of some people in politics they are wearing military style dress uniforms. Shoulder boards, medals, etc. Makes you really think this is a military run country. Heck, even school teachers wear that stuff! Crazy....

I too found it a bit confusing to see "civil" service uniforms with boards and medals. It, for about 1 millisecond, makes you think that the civil service is run with military precision.

Have often asked my missus what you can get a gong for? Superior services to paper shuffling? Going beyond the call of duty in wielding the "chop".

This really shows that no matter what the government and politicians say this country has military government

[geriatrickid]

Khattiya in defiance of Army discipline

The guy is certifiable.

Armies are based on discipling and hierarchy of rank.

That is the PRIMARY way it functions, with out it it can be no more than a band of brigands.

So to call this peerage is just idiotic, it is 'an army', discipline is the way it functions,

flouting that and gross insubordination, as Sae Daeng is doing, in most all armies is a

stockade and cashiering infraction. If it were in battle it would be a shoot on sight infraction.

insubordination in battle is not taken lightly.

And you speak from your vast military experience? Yes, discipline is important, but the discipline you refer to is the stuff of movies. What counts is cohesion, consistency and leadership. Discipline comes when there is order and integrity within the respective unit. If the Major General's colleagues are also engaged in political activity, then the major General cannot be singled out.

The deceased despot Hussein had strict discipline, including your vaunted strategy of shooting troops. The end result? Most of the Iraqis surrendered very quickly. Troops that live in the fear you delight in proposing, might be able to march in a "disciplined" manner and kiss an officer's posterior but they are unreliable when it counts. Contrast your view that with an army that has good leadership and that has units capable of working with each other. The most important discipline is self discipline. It is the discipline that allows self sacrifice. When you are sharing a shallow trench, you better dam_n well trust your mates, otherwise that trench becomes a shallow grave. That discipline cannot be forced upon anyone as you suggest.

Maybe you should stick to trying to writing poetry or exploring the horrors of nearly being swept away by a raging puddle and leave the issues of military discipline to those that know a thing or two about it. There are a couple retired staff officers in TV and you might wish to discuss this with them. They can explain to you that officers do not shoot other officers on the battlefield as you suggest. It only happens in fantasy movies.

[KireB]

Agreed, but does the same hold true for those that are adherents of the "yellow" side? How about this: There should be no political activity whilst in uniform, or as a representative of the military. Won't happen, will it?

Very predictable as well, innit? This topic is about mad man Khattiya and not about the Yellows!

[animatic]

Well GK please tell from you VAST EXPERIENCE

how Sae Daeng fits into the Self Disciplined category.

Can't say I would trust him to watch my back in any foxhole.

[hammered]

Khattiya in defiance of Army discipline

The guy is certifiable.

Armies are based on discipling and hierarchy of rank.

That is the PRIMARY way it functions, with out it it can be no more than a band of brigands.

So to call this peerage is just idiotic, it is 'an army', discipline is the way it functions,

flouting that and gross insubordination, as Sae Daeng is doing, in most all armies is a

stockade and cashiering infraction. If it were in battle it would be a shoot on sight infraction.

insubordination in battle is not taken lightly.

And you speak from your vast military experience? Yes, discipline is important, but the discipline you refer to is the stuff of movies. What counts is cohesion, consistency and leadership. Discipline comes when there is order and integrity within the respective unit. If the Major General's colleagues are also engaged in political activity, then the major General cannot be singled out.

The deceased despot Hussein had strict discipline, including your vaunted strategy of shooting troops. The end result? Most of the Iraqis surrendered very quickly. Troops that live in the fear you delight in proposing, might be able to march in a "disciplined" manner and kiss an officer's posterior but they are unreliable when it counts. Contrast your view that with an army that has good leadership and that has units capable of working with each other. The most important discipline is self discipline. It is the discipline that allows self sacrifice. When you are sharing a shallow trench, you better dam_n well trust your mates, otherwise that trench becomes a shallow grave. That discipline cannot be forced upon anyone as you suggest.

Maybe you should stick to trying to writing poetry or exploring the horrors of nearly being swept away by a raging puddle and leave the issues of military discipline to those that know a thing or two about it. There are a couple retired staff officers in TV and you might wish to discuss this with them. They can explain to you that officers do not shoot other officers on the battlefield as you suggest. It only happens in fantasy movies.

If only those who had been in a military were allowed to discuss military matters the world would be a lot worse place. And quite frankly why would someone want to value the opinion of someone who claimed to have been or even was a staff officer in some military or other over any other person? We are not discussing military manouvers, strategy or tactics here but politics.

Edited to add: not that the offcier corps of any modern western army seems to have much understanding of strategy judging by the disastrous state of recent campaigns

Edited January 28, 2010 by hammered

[Samuian]

Khattiya in defiance of Army discipline

The guy is certifiable.

Armies are based on discipling and hierarchy of rank.

That is the PRIMARY way it functions, without it, it can be no more than a band of brigands.

So to call this peerage is just idiotic, it is 'an army', discipline is the way it functions,

flouting that and gross insubordination, as Sae Daeng is doing, in most all armies is a

stockade and cashiering infraction. If it were in battle it would be a shoot on sight infraction.

insubordination in battle is not taken lightly.

more pitiable!

In the believe as "His Masters Voice" he failed so badly!

Tells a lot about this character and perhaps one can draw conclusions to the rest of the core supporters, turning a blind eye...

believing that evreyone else will do, in ignorance of the fact that times have changed!

[Langsuan Man]

Would one of you Thai military experts out there please explain the term Army Specialist that is always used in reporting about

Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdipol

In my military experience Specialist was an enlisted rank, therefore I am confused

[mythBuster]

Unfortunately for this man, the number one requirement to become a soldier is to amputate most of your brain or a possession of an IQ no higher than 65. The reason is clear, soldiers with the ability to think are dangerous for he discipline. Imagine that Hitler's soldiers had the guts, the brains and the will to defy orders. Millions of people would have survived.

[TAWP]

Imagine that Hitler's soldiers had the guts, the brains and the will to defy orders. Millions of people would have survived.

That is just silly and slanderous. A lot of them was very bright. Lack of IQ was not the issue.

[junglist]

Many German solders died in various attempts to assassinate Hitler. I suggest revamping your history readings or go watch the not so good movie Valkyrie.

Edited January 28, 2010 by junglist

[junglist]

Oh most of the Thai elite military are quite smart. They have successfully run this nation for a long time without any really knowing that they were in total control.