Chiang Mai In Chaos

[Ricardo]

you conveniently keep ignoring all the other undemocratic, unconstitutional & illegal actions that all stem from a military coup which removed the elected government.

What elected government do you claim was in-power in September-2006 ? As what I remember was a caretaker-PM, appointed by the HoS temporarily, to try to re-run the annulled April-2006 election.

[mcgriffith]

OK, I hear you all.

I really am concerned for Thailand, and care about it passionately like all the above posters. Whatever your political beliefs. And my Thai political beliefs are surprisingly neutral, as I like to think I can see both sides. I read a lot about Thai politics, on a daily basis.

So can I humbly offer a suggestion? Maybe a better track to take this discussion?

Rather than recriminate about the past, can we offer in some constructive way some way for our Thai brethren to get out of this impasse?

Like...listen to each other?

Or....think of the whole good of the people?

Maybe....not worry about loss of power and face?

Positive, constructive comments, that don't focus on the past, but rather are policy initiatives for the future.

I wait with bated breath.

[jdinasia]

OK, I hear you all.

I really am concerned for Thailand, and care about it passionately like all the above posters. Whatever your political beliefs. And my Thai political beliefs are surprisingly neutral, as I like to think I can see both sides. I read a lot about Thai politics, on a daily basis.

So can I humbly offer a suggestion? Maybe a better track to take this discussion?

Rather than recriminate about the past, can we offer in some constructive way some way for our Thai brethren to get out of this impasse?

Like...listen to each other?

Or....think of the whole good of the people?

Maybe....not worry about loss of power and face?

Positive, constructive comments, that don't focus on the past, but rather are policy initiatives for the future.

I wait with bated breath.

Would Clorets help that?

There is a simple way out.

The current elected government finishes its term of office or folds when the coalition dies. Thaksin returns to Thailand and starts his 2 years in jail and appears before the court to answer the other charges against him. The Reds allow open campaigning in all districts. The Reds don't commit electoral fraud in the next elections.

The rest of the people facing charges resulting from protests and violence ALL get their days in court. The guilty pay (remember there are some pretty hefty civil cases too) either in cash or in time in jail or both. The innocent walk. I do think that many will walk from criminal cases but will get hammered into the ground by the civil cases! I know law well enough to be able to predict how many of the PAD leadership will escape jail time (legally)

Result .....

The Reds probably win by a small margin like the last time and form a coalition government that is NOT backed by Thaksin. The Dems become the opposition party like the last time. They Dems learn that they need something far stronger than history to hold on to the premiership and start adopting programs of real social value in Thailand or lose what social relevance they do have. I think under Abhisit they will do well. Then things are 'normalized'. Granted I could be wrong about the Red's winning by a small margin next time if they do not have access to Thaksin's cash.

[Ulysses G.]

1) They give Thaksin his money back and a pardon in return for a guarantee that he will stay out of politics.

2) More importantly, the rich stop screwing the poor.

[Jingthing]

1) They give Thaksin his money back and a pardon in return for a guarantee that he will stay out of politics.

2) More importantly, the rich stop screwing the poor.

Yeah 2 is more important. But are you so naive as to think if Thaksin got his money back and promised to stay out of politics, that he would actually honor that? Does anyone believe that?

[Ulysses G.]

I think that there is a much better chance that Thaksin would honor his commitment than the rich wiould stop screwing the poor.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[jdinasia]

1) They give Thaksin his money back and a pardon in return for a guarantee that he will stay out of politics.

2) More importantly, the rich stop screwing the poor.

He's left politics before.

Sadly that isn't an option. (In Thailand) To pardon Thaksin after what he has done would be a huge slap in the face to the judges and the entire judicial system in Thailand. I also think to be eligible for a pardon the person must admit their guilt here. Though I do agree that having Thaksin out of politics would be a good start on your second point!

[Ulysses G.]

Give it a break. General Suchinda is still around and living like royalty.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[jdinasia]

Give it a break. General Suchinda is still around and living like royalty.

I know ... going back to 1992 is a pain, but what was he convicted of? I think, though some people might call it a pardon, what Suchinda got was an amnesty. I don't think he was ever convicted of something to be pardoned for.

[jdinasia]

That's a pretty good analysis, and I have to say I agree on your take on everyone taking their lumps, legally. I give it a thumbs up.

Thanks !

[mcgriffith]

To clarify, I gave a thumbs up to jdinasia's analysis.

I'm not taking sides, at all.

So any more positive suggestions, from our illustrious and brainy farang community, on how Thailand can resolve these difficult issues?

Again, no stating of past wrongs, just things that will move the process forward.

Towards peace, and reconciliation.

[jdinasia]

To clarify, I gave a thumbs up to jdinasia's analysis.

I'm not taking sides, at all.

So any more positive suggestions, from our illustrious and brainy farang community, on how Thailand can resolve these difficult issues?

Again, no stating of past wrongs, just things that will move the process forward.

Towards peace, and reconciliation.

I was aware of that! I hope you didn't think I was trying to make it seem like you were taking sides

for UG

the Court has indicated the differences between these two concepts, and a state court once declared that "amnesty is the abolition or oblivion of the offence; pardon is its forgiveness"' (State v. Blalock, 61 N.C. (Phil. Law) 242, 247 (1867)).

Read more: Amnesty and Pardon - Clemency Powers In The Twentieth Century http://law.jrank.org/pages/507/Amnesty-Par...l#ixzz0eUUrwx39

http://law.jrank.org/pages/507/Amnesty-Par...th-century.html

[Maestro]

From the forum netiquette:

5. Please do not quote multiple nested quotes. Quote only the relevant section that you are discussing. Moderators will snip excessively long nested quotes.

I know moderators are are meant to clean up these posts but there are simply too many of them in this topic so I will simply delete them, and while I am at it I will also delete posts of members attacking each other.

--

Maestro

[ogb]

In the spirit of moving forward I wont bother to rebut in relation to our previous discussion/argument.

My suggestions for a way forward are:

1. Every wrongdoer (including coup leaders) be prosecuted, or otherwise there should be an amnesty for all, including Thaksin.

2. A referendum for the people to choose which constitution they want (2007 or 1997 version)

3. The military and other unelected institutions to stay out of politics

(if they want to get involved, then submit themselves to elections)

Everything else will eventually take care of itself if the above happens (as good as it gets anyway), including the poor being treated better, because they will elect politicians to do that, and the people will discard them as and when appropriate (in their view, and through the electoral process)

The only really hard one is point 3 (the others should be easy).

[ChiangMaiFun]

In the spirit of moving forward I wont bother to rebut in relation to our previous discussion/argument.

My suggestions for a way forward are:

1. Every wrongdoer (including coup leaders) be prosecuted, or otherwise there should be an amnesty for all, including Thaksin.

2. A referendum for the people to choose which constitution they want (2007 or 1997 version)

3. The military and other unelected institutions to stay out of politics

(if they want to get involved, then submit themselves to elections)

Everything else will eventually take care of itself if the above happens (as good as it gets anyway), including the poor being treated better, because they will elect politicians to do that, and the people will discard them as and when appropriate (in their view, and through the electoral process)

The only really hard one is point 3 (the others should be easy).

Agreed - I think amnesty for all as every one of them has dirt on their hands - then apply the rule of law (haha) - well its worth a try! and lastly I would add a number 4.

4. Start practising Buddhism - realise the law of karma - and live by it

(maybe too much to ask in Thailand I know)

[Ulysses G.]

My suggestions for a way forward are:

1. Every wrongdoer (including coup leaders) be prosecuted, or otherwise there should be an amnesty for all, including Thaksin.

Agreed - I think amnesty for all as every one of them has dirt on their hands

Now THIS makes sense. Why should the coup leaders evade justice any more than Thaksin? - everybody serves time or everybody goes scott free. Well done ogb!

[orang37]

... snip ... So any more positive suggestions, from our illustrious and brainy farang community, on how Thailand can resolve these difficult issues? ... Again, no stating of past wrongs, just things that will move the process forward. Towards peace, and reconciliation.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun McGriffith,

late Edit : Well, speaking of being continually surprised : we just had time to read this breaking news on ThaiVisa about General Chaovalit being appointed "Supreme Commander of People's Army of Thailand" by Khun Thaksin : General Chaovalit escalated by Who ? to What ?

The most positive thing we can think of is to recognize the difference between "chaotic thought" in the minds of Farangs, and "chaotic perceptions" by Farangs (including our human component as a "Farang," of course) and ... events of a political nature in Thailand as they are experienced and evaluated by Thai people of different groups.

To recognize the limits of our understanding of what you might refer to as the "underground aquifers" of national identity, religious identity, ethnic identity, cultural identity, that underly the "modern" Thai state which we evaluate in terms of our own "western rear-view mirror" in which the modern "myth of democracry" has been constructed, embellished, and so frequently white-washed to remove the blood-stains.

What for the "brainy Farang" you invoke may appear as "cognitive dissonance" (to trot out Festinger's old pony), for the Thai culturally modal perceptual structure may have no incongruity whatsoever. Or, perhaps, better to suggest that the "incongruity" they experience, and the way they experience it may be quite beyond our (Farang) comprehension. And, why not one more hypothesis : the diversity of Thai experiences of this hypothetical "incongruity" might encompass a "range" vastly more complex than the "range" of Farang experience of chaos and cognitive dissonance (which, in our opinion, is often sheerly reactive and is based on complete lack of knowledge of Thai history ancient to modern).

If you can give temporary "credence" to this concept of "underground aquifers," perhaps you can also "try on for size" the idea that in times of crisis, in the "inflection points" of rapid social transitions, or in the "singularities" that "punctuate evolutionary equilibrium" (Gould), what is underground, sub-limnal, rises to the surface, and is enacted in "national psychodramas" whose "protagonists" can be individuals (as a certain out-spoken military officer recently arrested for a whole lot of reasons, or a certain ex-PM now swimming with Cambodia), or groups (as in the lost lives of the machine-gunned students of the 1970's during the Chamlong / Suchinda showdown who now, collectively, signify a national turning point and disaster).

That these "topsy-turvy" or "helter-skelter" times reflect very long historical themes seems a most reasonable hypothesis. And, obviously, we can't discuss here some of the most obvious long-term historical themes in Thai national identity.

So, speaking for one Farang, who co-habits with an Orang, we can only say that terms like "karma," "metta," "dharma," "chakravartin," "dhammaraja" are, we suspect, important signifiers ... whose depths may be forever "opaque" to the Farang mind ... but may be useful pointers to a long-term view of the dynamics of Thai history and its current perturbations which we (Farang) may perceive as "chaos."

Equally one might suggest that the "Farang" mind is so socialized to an ethos of "distributive social justice," "power as emerging from the people up into the political domain," etc., that it is hard for us to consider anything that does not conform to those categories of perception as anything but "depraved," "corrupted," or even "evil."

As to how Thailand might "resolve these difficult issues," or "move the process forward. Towards peace, and reconciliation." : in our humble opinion such things are going to be resolved in the Thai way by Thais themselves, not by suggestions from "brainy Farangs."

We think the best we can do with our "Farang brain" is to become as informed as possible about Thai history and culture, and continually remind ourselves of the bloody paradoxes of national development in our own homelands where our own "industrial revolutions" and modernization was built on the backs of conquest, genocide, looting, slavery, and colonial imperialism.

We prepare to be continually surprised. If the expectation of confusion reduces confusion slightly, that's a nice "bonus."

best, ~o:37;

Edited February 4, 2010 by orang37

[jdinasia]

In the spirit of moving forward I wont bother to rebut in relation to our previous discussion/argument.

My suggestions for a way forward are:

1. Every wrongdoer (including coup leaders) be prosecuted, or otherwise there should be an amnesty for all, including Thaksin.

2. A referendum for the people to choose which constitution they want (2007 or 1997 version)

3. The military and other unelected institutions to stay out of politics

(if they want to get involved, then submit themselves to elections)

Everything else will eventually take care of itself if the above happens (as good as it gets anyway), including the poor being treated better, because they will elect politicians to do that, and the people will discard them as and when appropriate (in their view, and through the electoral process)

The only really hard one is point 3 (the others should be easy).

OK by me!

1. I doubt that they would convict the coup leaders of anything but I am all for them standing trial.

2. The old constitution was flawed, but I am ok with that point too.

3. I am OK with this as regards to the military. "other unelected institutions?" Who do you mean?

Does this actually provide a way forward? No but hey, it would certainly show whether or not some parties were willing to abide by the judgements of the courts when found guilty.

[caf]

1) They give Thaksin his money back and a pardon in return for a guarantee that he will stay out of politics.

2) More importantly, the rich stop screwing the poor.

Yeah 2 is more important. But are you so naive as to think if Thaksin got his money back and promised to stay out of politics, that he would actually honor that? Does anyone believe that?

I am not sure you are entirely right but I see your point. It is not a question of honour, Jingthing. I do not think there will be a pardon but a "formula" might be put to him in strong enough terms and from a strong authority that allows neither he nor the "rich"* as Ukysses calls them to lose face. Many are still looking at this with Western eyes.

caf

* most powerful people are rich.

but it is the elite groups, not all of whom are rich, that one must consider. status and face are important here not simply wealth. but yes most people in power are rich

[caf]

My suggestions for a way forward are:

1. Every wrongdoer (including coup leaders) be prosecuted, or otherwise there should be an amnesty for all, including Thaksin.

Agreed - I think amnesty for all as every one of them has dirt on their hands

Now THIS makes sense. Why should the coup leaders evade justice any more than Thaksin? - everybody serves time or everybody goes scott free. Well done ogb!

I agree that sentiment, Ulysses; but are Thais that logical about, for example, amnesties? There will be a way round this that satisfies the Thai way. But will be done in the Thai way not the western way.

I know you say I ( and others) ramble when you disagree and you sometimes go for the messenger not the message, but sometimes one has to be careful how blunt one can be. Reading between the lines is something Thais are better at than westerners ( and in my experience, and my experience only, americans. life is not always black and white )

caf

[ogb]

In the spirit of moving forward I wont bother to rebut in relation to our previous discussion/argument.

My suggestions for a way forward are:

1. Every wrongdoer (including coup leaders) be prosecuted, or otherwise there should be an amnesty for all, including Thaksin.

2. A referendum for the people to choose which constitution they want (2007 or 1997 version)

3. The military and other unelected institutions to stay out of politics

(if they want to get involved, then submit themselves to elections)

Everything else will eventually take care of itself if the above happens (as good as it gets anyway), including the poor being treated better, because they will elect politicians to do that, and the people will discard them as and when appropriate (in their view, and through the electoral process)

The only really hard one is point 3 (the others should be easy).

OK by me!

1. I doubt that they would convict the coup leaders of anything but I am all for them standing trial.

2. The old constitution was flawed, but I am ok with that point too.

3. I am OK with this as regards to the military. "other unelected institutions?" Who do you mean?

Does this actually provide a way forward? No but hey, it would certainly show whether or not some parties were willing to abide by the judgements of the courts when found guilty.

You have identified the problems very well.

1. Coup leaders cleary did something illegal, yet you doubt they would be convicted of anything!

(in some countries they would be executed for what they did, but personally I am against the death penalty)

On the other hand Thaksin gets persecuted (sentenced to 2 years jail for a minor technicality the likes of which are far exceeded on a daily basis in Thailand - could not even prove any corruption, and they had to resor to very nitpicking type legal technicalities!)

As its clear not all who should be punished will be, the way forward is to provide amnesty to all, then proceed to steps 2 and 3.

3. No need for me to comment!

(if you did your homework and did not just rely on TV, and mainstream media and ASTV for your information, you would know the picture - As a starting point I suppose you could try reading a few books or articles by say Duncan McCargo or Federico Ferrara has a new book coming, or if you are outside Thailand try Paul Handley)

On a positive note, I expect the sort of interference by the militarty and other unelected institutions will be much more difficult in the not too distant future.

(unless Thailand is taken down a different route such as that taken by North Korea or Burma, in which case there will be no need for TV to even exist)

[Ulysses G.]

I do not think there will be a pardon but a "formula" might be put to him in strong enough terms and from a strong authority that allows neither he nor the "rich"* as Ukysses calls them to lose face. Many are still looking at this with Western eyes.

caf

* most powerful people are rich.

but it is the elite groups, not all of whom are rich, that one must consider. status and face are important here not simply wealth. but yes most people in power are rich

My guess is that most people understood what I mean by "rich" without the convoluted, in-depth explanation.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[lannarebirth]

... snip ... So any more positive suggestions, from our illustrious and brainy farang community, on how Thailand can resolve these difficult issues? ... Again, no stating of past wrongs, just things that will move the process forward. Towards peace, and reconciliation.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun McGriffith,

late Edit : Well, speaking of being continually surprised : we just had time to read this breaking news on ThaiVisa about General Chaovalit being appointed "Supreme Commander of People's Army of Thailand" by Khun Thaksin : General Chaovalit escalated by Who ? to What ?

The most positive thing we can think of is to recognize the difference between "chaotic thought" in the minds of Farangs, and "chaotic perceptions" by Farangs (including our human component as a "Farang," of course) and ... events of a political nature in Thailand as they are experienced and evaluated by Thai people of different groups.

To recognize the limits of our understanding of what you might refer to as the "underground aquifers" of national identity, religious identity, ethnic identity, cultural identity, that underly the "modern" Thai state which we evaluate in terms of our own "western rear-view mirror" in which the modern "myth of democracry" has been constructed, embellished, and so frequently white-washed to remove the blood-stains.

What for the "brainy Farang" you invoke may appear as "cognitive dissonance" (to trot out Festinger's old pony), for the Thai culturally modal perceptual structure may have no incongruity whatsoever. Or, perhaps, better to suggest that the "incongruity" they experience, and the way they experience it may be quite beyond our (Farang) comprehension. And, why not one more hypothesis : the diversity of Thai experiences of this hypothetical "incongruity" might encompass a "range" vastly more complex than the "range" of Farang experience of chaos and cognitive dissonance (which, in our opinion, is often sheerly reactive and is based on complete lack of knowledge of Thai history ancient to modern).

If you can give temporary "credence" to this concept of "underground aquifers," perhaps you can also "try on for size" the idea that in times of crisis, in the "inflection points" of rapid social transitions, or in the "singularities" that "punctuate evolutionary equilibrium" (Gould), what is underground, sub-limnal, rises to the surface, and is enacted in "national psychodramas" whose "protagonists" can be individuals (as a certain out-spoken military officer recently arrested for a whole lot of reasons, or a certain ex-PM now swimming with Cambodia), or groups (as in the lost lives of the machine-gunned students of the 1970's during the Chamlong / Suchinda showdown who now, collectively, signify a national turning point and disaster).

That these "topsy-turvy" or "helter-skelter" times reflect very long historical themes seems a most reasonable hypothesis. And, obviously, we can't discuss here some of the most obvious long-term historical themes in Thai national identity.

So, speaking for one Farang, who co-habits with an Orang, we can only say that terms like "karma," "metta," "dharma," "chakravartin," "dhammaraja" are, we suspect, important signifiers ... whose depths may be forever "opaque" to the Farang mind ... but may be useful pointers to a long-term view of the dynamics of Thai history and its current perturbations which we (Farang) may perceive as "chaos."

Equally one might suggest that the "Farang" mind is so socialized to an ethos of "distributive social justice," "power as emerging from the people up into the political domain," etc., that it is hard for us to consider anything that does not conform to those categories of perception as anything but "depraved," "corrupted," or even "evil."

As to how Thailand might "resolve these difficult issues," or "move the process forward. Towards peace, and reconciliation." : in our humble opinion such things are going to be resolved in the Thai way by Thais themselves, not by suggestions from "brainy Farangs."

We think the best we can do with our "Farang brain" is to become as informed as possible about Thai history and culture, and continually remind ourselves of the bloody paradoxes of national development in our own homelands where our own "industrial revolutions" and modernization was built on the backs of conquest, genocide, looting, slavery, and colonial imperialism.

We prepare to be continually surprised. If the expectation of confusion reduces confusion slightly, that's a nice "bonus."

best, ~o:37;

Very thoughtful and insightful commentary Khun orang, thank you very much. It's true our "farang brain" has not tools to measure what we perceive as the chaos that surrounds us. Todays news should probably not have come as a surprise to us, but I'm fearful that people who I once hoped might "inherit the earth" will instead "inherit the wind". This is not "normal" Thai chaos and it is reflected in the increased anxiety I see in my wife and others I come into contact with. I wish them all strength and wisdom.

[caf]

I do not think there will be a pardon but a "formula" might be put to him in strong enough terms and from a strong authority that allows neither he nor the "rich"* as Ukysses calls them to lose face. Many are still looking at this with Western eyes.

caf

* most powerful people are rich.

but it is the elite groups, not all of whom are rich, that one must consider. status and face are important here not simply wealth. but yes most people in power are rich

My guess is that most people understood what I mean by "rich" without the convoluted, in-depth explanation.

Partially qouting what I say again. But at least this time you prove my point that you prefer shooting the messenger ( commenting on a convoluted style) rather than making a constructive point.

If I did what you did and commented on the grammar and style of your posts rather than the topic, thaivisa would be inundated with replies to your posts.

You say you ignore my posts but what you actually do is continually snipe. My last post actually agreed with some of youir points but you still persist with this childish attitude.

caf

[KevinHunt]

I do not think there will be a pardon but a "formula" might be put to him in strong enough terms and from a strong authority that allows neither he nor the "rich"* as Ukysses calls them to lose face. Many are still looking at this with Western eyes.

caf

* most powerful people are rich.

but it is the elite groups, not all of whom are rich, that one must consider. status and face are important here not simply wealth. but yes most people in power are rich

My guess is that most people understood what I mean by "rich" without the convoluted, in-depth explanation.

That's a bit rich!!

[jdinasia]

OK by me!

1. I doubt that they would convict the coup leaders of anything but I am all for them standing trial.

2. The old constitution was flawed, but I am ok with that point too.

3. I am OK with this as regards to the military. "other unelected institutions?" Who do you mean?

Does this actually provide a way forward? No but hey, it would certainly show whether or not some parties were willing to abide by the judgements of the courts when found guilty.

You have identified the problems very well.

1. Coup leaders cleary did something illegal, yet you doubt they would be convicted of anything!

(in some countries they would be executed for what they did, but personally I am against the death penalty)

On the other hand Thaksin gets persecuted (sentenced to 2 years jail for a minor technicality the likes of which are far exceeded on a daily basis in Thailand - could not even prove any corruption, and they had to resor to very nitpicking type legal technicalities!)

As its clear not all who should be punished will be, the way forward is to provide amnesty to all, then proceed to steps 2 and 3.

3. No need for me to comment!

(if you did your homework and did not just rely on TV, and mainstream media and ASTV for your information, you would know the picture - As a starting point I suppose you could try reading a few books or articles by say Duncan McCargo or Federico Ferrara has a new book coming, or if you are outside Thailand try Paul Handley)

On a positive note, I expect the sort of interference by the militarty and other unelected institutions will be much more difficult in the not too distant future.

(unless Thailand is taken down a different route such as that taken by North Korea or Burma, in which case there will be no need for TV to even exist)

1. Coup leaders MAY have done something illegal at the time. Was it illegal afterwards or now? I am not sure. Will they be able to stand up and justify their actions and possibly have a court rule in their favor? I think so. Let the courts decide like you said.

Continued ---- Thaksin's sentence was just and he has lost his right to appeal it. Thaksin's other cases are either waiting for a decision (the assets forfeiture case Feb 26) or are awaiting him to appear in Court to answer the charges and thus cannot move forward until he returns to the country. The prosecution picked the Rachada land case because it was a 'slam-dunk'.

Your call to now CHANGE what you wanted is telling. If it doesn't happen your way with your view to the results it isn't valid. So much for you wanting a Democracy.

3. Yes there is a need for you to either comment or to just drop it. For you to talk to me about 'mainstream media and ASTV' is sad .. remember Sae Daeng? What other institutions (plural) are you referring to?

On a positive note? What will be changing that would stop the entrenched military and yet again you use the ever so vague "and other unelected institutions (plural)" from taking action in the 'not too distant future?'

[Ulysses G.]

I do not think there will be a pardon but a "formula" might be put to him in strong enough terms and from a strong authority that allows neither he nor the "rich"* as Ukysses calls them to lose face. Many are still looking at this with Western eyes.

caf

* most powerful people are rich.

but it is the elite groups, not all of whom are rich, that one must consider. status and face are important here not simply wealth. but yes most people in power are rich

My guess is that most people understood what I mean by "rich" without the convoluted, in-depth explanation.

Partially qouting what I say again. But at least this time you prove my point that you prefer shooting the messenger ( commenting on a convoluted style) rather than making a constructive point.

If I did what you did and commented on the grammar and style of your posts rather than the topic, thaivisa would be inundated with replies to your posts.

You say you ignore my posts but what you actually do is continually snipe. My last post actually agreed with some of youir points but you still persist with this childish attitude.

caf

Sheesh... I am quoting the part of your post that I am refering to. That is how it is done - and by the way, I am tired of being stalked. Kevin put you on ignore and blocked your PMs and I can certainly see why.

As Bugs would say, What a maroon!

Edited February 4, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[ogb]

jdinasia: Your continued justification of a military coup, and blinkered attitude to Thaksin is also very telling.

I'm not wasting anymore time on you until you can show you have read and understood the books I referred to in my previous post.

Bye.

[ogb]

1. Coup leaders MAY have done something illegal at the time. Was it illegal afterwards or now? I am not sure. Will they be able to stand up and justify their actions and possibly have a court rule in their favor? I think so. Let the courts decide like you said.

Continued ---- Thaksin's sentence was just and he has lost his right to appeal it. Thaksin's other cases are either waiting for a decision (the assets forfeiture case Feb 26) or are awaiting him to appear in Court to answer the charges and thus cannot move forward until he returns to the country. The prosecution picked the Rachada land case because it was a 'slam-dunk'.

Your call to now CHANGE what you wanted is telling. If it doesn't happen your way with your view to the results it isn't valid. So much for you wanting a Democracy.

btw, Change what???

This is what my original post said:

"1. Every wrongdoer (including coup leaders) be prosecuted, or otherwise there should be an amnesty for all, including Thaksin."

I should let it go, but you seem the type who needs to be told you are WRONG!

[orang37]

... snip ... but I'm fearful that people who I once hoped might "inherit the earth" will instead "inherit the wind". This is not "normal" Thai chaos and it is reflected in the increased anxiety I see in my wife and others I come into contact with. I wish them all strength and wisdom.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun LannaRebirth,

Didn't mean to imply this is not a traumatic and stressful time for Thais (at every level of society), although our strong feeling is that we see the "inner world" of most Thais only "through a glass, darkly."

As someone(s) who loves (or at least "tries" to love) this country, and its people, we also feel concerned, alarmed, and hope for the best, keeping in mind that while "chaos" has produced Ivan the Terrible, Hitler, Idi Amin, and Mugabe, etc., "chaos" has also produced Gandhi, and Mandela, and Martin Luther King Jr.

And, always in our thoughts, we come back to the incredible historical fact of Thailand being able to resist predatory colonialization by the western powers (while not forgetting for a minute Thailand's (Ayudhya's) own role as a predatory colonial power in Cambodia and Laos over centuries, or forgetting the way that King Kawila of Lampang re-populated the deserted and abandoned Chiang Mai left behind by the Burmese by wholesale capture and re-location of Shan, and Tai Yai, and Tai Lue peoples, as well as anyone else they could round up).

If there were any djinn we could summon by rubbing an oil lamp, we'd ask our traditional three wishes to be rolled into one super-wish which would be : that every Thai youngster had the opportunity for access to an educational system equivalent in quality to the best that Asia offers in Taiwan, Singapore, etc.

We were happy to read that Khun Chaovalit promptly denied the story being circulated that he was now a "Supreme Commander," and just chalk that one up as another episode in the "psy-ops" subliminal warfare now going on. Better the shouting, and the rhetoric, than the breaking of heads ? Gosh, we hope so.

best, ~o:37;

Edited February 4, 2010 by orang37