Financial Advisor Recommendations

[ozgirlinbkk]

Hi,

Can anyone recommend a good Bangkok-based financial advisor for expats?

Thanks!

[William Osborne]

financial advisors in thailand.... one notch down from real-estate agents in my book.

[chiangmaibruce]

Hi

Firstly might I be cheeky enough to suggest you grab a copy of my recently release book Your Investment Guide to Thailand by Silkworm Books. I am unsure of your background but this will likely help bring you up to speed with a number of key issues re: finance and investment in LOS.

www.silkwormbooks.com/catalog/info/investment-guide-thailand

I would then suggest possibly contacting MBMG International (google on this to get their web site). This company was first brought to my attention my TV member ''Churchill'' and I then met with them in relation to my book. They have been on the scene a while and I would think you would find them to be competent and professional.

- CB

[GuestHouse]

Here's some advice.....

Don't put your eggs in a basket that belongs to somebody else.

[tonywebster]

Hi Ozgirl.

I see you got the normal nonsense ideas as usual on here. sadly the industry is not well regulated in Thailand and I put no trust in Thailand. I use a company in Malaysia, an established company. The guy I deal with has worked for them for 7 years, he has his qualifications, I know the company owners through dealing with them (one is ex inland revenue from the UK so he is up to speed on tax issues, although they still recommend to use a tax lawyer for tax issues).

I have never had any problems with this guy or with this company, always professional, always courteous. the company is growing and have moved to a larger office. one refreshing thing is I know a senior guy from Royal Skandia, the company I use also use Royal Skandia products as well as others and he speaks highly of the company I use.

If you want more info send me a pm and I will give you contact details, they already have clients in Thailand (I started with them when i lived in KL) so they will come to Thailand to meet you.

Edited February 2, 2010 by tonywebster

[churchill]

Hi

Firstly might I be cheeky enough to suggest you grab a copy of my recently release book Your Investment Guide to Thailand by Silkworm Books. I am unsure of your background but this will likely help bring you up to speed with a number of key issues re: finance and investment in LOS.

www.silkwormbooks.com/catalog/info/investment-guide-thailand

I would then suggest possibly contacting MBMG International (google on this to get their web site). This company was first brought to my attention my TV member ''Churchill'' and I then met with them in relation to my book. They have been on the scene a while and I would think you would find them to be competent and professional.

- CB

Yes I have been using MBMG and they give good advice on a range of services .

[ExpatJ]

Stay well clear of most no-name investment companies with expat staff based in Thailand. Sure signs that the company is a rip off shop or just not capable of giving good investment advice:

1) The expat investment advisor staff are not on a salary, they are paid by commission to sell the companies investment 'product'.

2) The investment advisors are former english teachers. Nothing wrong with being a former English teacher, you just dont want serious investment advice from one.

3) The investment products they offer are weird or unorthodox and not offered by any of the big financial investment institutions (HSBCs, Goldman Sachs, banks etc of this world etc), typical products include plots of land that are divided up among investors, student accommodation in UK etc.

and the big no-no...

4) they cold call you offering you investment advice.

If they have any of the above, stay well away.

My advice would be to stick to the big global companies or read up yourself with the right books, mags, newspapers ...

[PattayaParent]

I don't use an IFA in Thailand so don't have any personal recommendations but have heard of Barclay Spencer and MBMG.

There's also a UK company called Fry International that have a base in Singapore and who have clients in Bangkok and their advisors frequently visit (from Singapore and UK).

[rgs2001uk]

I'm sorry, but when I read such illustrious names as, Royal Skandia, Barclay Spencer and Fry International, the alarm bells start ringing.

The best advice I can give ozgirl, if you dont know what to do, do nothing.

Her best course of action would be to wait until she is next in Australia and seek proper professional advice pertinent to her circumstances, not the circumstances some shyster will talk her into for ulterior motives.

[eyebee]

I was burned pretty badly by Barclay Spencer. Lost virtually half of my investment. I know the last couple of years has not been easy for anyone financially, but they put me into investments that performed worse than any other. I am now with Broadgate Financial - much happier with them.

[tonywebster]

I'm sorry, but when I read such illustrious names as, Royal Skandia, Barclay Spencer and Fry International, the alarm bells start ringing.

The best advice I can give ozgirl, if you dont know what to do, do nothing.

Her best course of action would be to wait until she is next in Australia and seek proper professional advice pertinent to her circumstances, not the circumstances some shyster will talk her into for ulterior motives.

Why do you get alarm bells at the name Royal Skandia? I am a little confused by this comment, they are not advisers, they are the custodians for the investments and are very well regulated, please don't confuse this massive global company with financial advisers. if you lose money through Skandia then the fault will lay with the person that selected the investments and not the company holding those investments.

One thing you need to learn is that not ALL these financial advisers are fly by nights, you are right to urge caution and I would do the same to anyone wanting to invest, but she is doing the right thing by asking for recommendations from people that are satisfied with their advisers. I am more than happy to recommend the company i have used for the past 7 years and some of my investments are through Royal Skandia bonds, it is not the bond you need to worry about, it is the investments within the bond that are selected by the adviser. they do get commissions from this so it is always a worry that they will select the investment that pays the most commission, this is why it is important to find a company that will work for you instead of work for themselves. I have managed to do this by asking many questions, never ask the company themselves for references as obviously they will only steer you towards happy customers.

[nicholasday]

One of the ways to spot a con is ask to see their work-permit. Very often the dodgy ones don't have work permits.

Edited February 2, 2010 by nicholasday

[tonywebster]

One of the ways to spot a con is ask to see their work-permit. Very often the dodgy ones don't have work permits.

Very true, and check their qualifications. the work permit is not always a sign that they are qualified to give advice.

[DarwinK]

Why do you get alarm bells at the name Royal Skandia? I am a little confused by this comment, they are not advisers, they are the custodians for the investments and are very well regulated, please don't confuse this massive global company with financial advisers. if you lose money through Skandia then the fault will lay with the person that selected the investments and not the company holding those investments.

I'm sorry, I really must disagree: Royal Skandia products that are sold here, based out of the Isle of Man, are not well-regulated. I have seen Royal Skandia make enormous mistakes involving their clients' accounts, and be incredibly slow to correct them. Just try getting any help or protection from the The Isle of Man's regulators: The authorities there are much too concerned with the revenue generated by the likes of Skandia, Zurich, Generali, and other insurance giants to properly regulate them. The fact that RS and company will allow their offerings to be peddled by any unregulated tom dick or harry should be warning enough to the OP and anyone else considering such rubbish.

What may be interesting is if one day the Yanks get bored with messing with just the Swiss and start to turn their attention to the sheningans going on elsewhere, including in offshore centres like the Isle of Man. Frankly, they will be doing everyone a favour over the long run by getting rid of ridiculous outdated overpriced insurance-products that pretend to be investments. The word "offshore" used to mean exclusivity to some--now it probably should just stand for "rip-off".

[DarwinK]

Hi

I would then suggest possibly contacting MBMG International (google on this to get their web site). This company was first brought to my attention my TV member ''Churchill'' and I then met with them in relation to my book. They have been on the scene a while and I would think you would find them to be competent and professional.

- CB

Yes I have been using MBMG and they give good advice on a range of services .

Hi Churchill and chiangmaibruce--you two seem to be the resident experts on MBMG. Someone showed me a graph on their website--wondering if you could explain it because I wasn't sure if I understood. It shows the performance graph of a fund they manage called "Osmium". It shows some stonking outperformance of this fund against MSCI the World and the S&P500, beginning in Feb 2000. Yet the finer print says "Actual performance shown in bold from 1 June 2009". What should I make of that? Unless I'm mistaken, in markets where regulation is enforced, this is called False Advertising.

[thaihome]

What may be interesting is if one day the Yanks get bored with messing with just the Swiss and start to turn their attention to the sheningans going on elsewhere, including in offshore centres like the Isle of Man. Frankly, they will be doing everyone a favour over the long run by getting rid of ridiculous outdated overpriced insurance-products that pretend to be investments. The word "offshore" used to mean exclusivity to some--now it probably should just stand for "rip-off".

What is probably going to get them going is the fact that they quietly promote hiding the assets and income from the IRS.

Barclay Spencer (now PFS) used to do a weekly column in Post where they would often go on about Americans having to declare world wide income and the ways around that.

TH

[churchill]

DarwinK wrote "Hi Churchill and chiangmaibruce--you two seem to be the resident experts on MBMG. Someone showed me a graph on their website--wondering if you could explain it because I wasn't sure if I understood. It shows the performance graph of a fund they manage called "Osmium". It shows some stonking outperformance of this fund against MSCI the World and the S&P500, beginning in Feb 2000. Yet the finer print says "Actual performance shown in bold from 1 June 2009". What should I make of that? Unless I'm mistaken, in markets where regulation is enforced, this is called False Advertising. "

Hi Darwin K

You will have to ask them ,- but I think it is a recently established fund June 1 2009 ? and they have given the past performance based on the funds current investments , - to give investors an idea of how it would have performed over the last few years . I believe this fund is invested mostly in cash and positioned for any market correction that might occur .

Edited February 2, 2010 by churchill

[tonywebster]

Why do you get alarm bells at the name Royal Skandia? I am a little confused by this comment, they are not advisers, they are the custodians for the investments and are very well regulated, please don't confuse this massive global company with financial advisers. if you lose money through Skandia then the fault will lay with the person that selected the investments and not the company holding those investments.

I'm sorry, I really must disagree: Royal Skandia products that are sold here, based out of the Isle of Man, are not well-regulated. I have seen Royal Skandia make enormous mistakes involving their clients' accounts, and be incredibly slow to correct them. Just try getting any help or protection from the The Isle of Man's regulators: The authorities there are much too concerned with the revenue generated by the likes of Skandia, Zurich, Generali, and other insurance giants to properly regulate them. The fact that RS and company will allow their offerings to be peddled by any unregulated tom dick or harry should be warning enough to the OP and anyone else considering such rubbish.

What may be interesting is if one day the Yanks get bored with messing with just the Swiss and start to turn their attention to the sheningans going on elsewhere, including in offshore centres like the Isle of Man. Frankly, they will be doing everyone a favour over the long run by getting rid of ridiculous outdated overpriced insurance-products that pretend to be investments. The word "offshore" used to mean exclusivity to some--now it probably should just stand for "rip-off".

sorry but now I must disagree with you. the IoM is very well regulated, also the insurance companies there must pay into a fund to bail out investors should there insurance company go broke.

Skandia do not control your investment, they are there to offer protection for your money, however the money can be lost by investment in bad funds, but like I said this is the decision of the independent adviser. It is skandia that makes certain that the money is not being laundered etc.

as for providing their services to anybody, again I disagree, they will provide their services to licensed advisers but sadly they have no control over who those advisers employ. Even the cowboy companies must have at least one qualified person or the cowboys will have to put their deals through an approved adviser.

It seems you had a bad time so I am not going to continue this, some people do have bad times and I have no doubt the process of complaining will be arduous but like I said don't confuse what skandia do and what the advisers do.

[rgs2001uk]

I'm sorry, but when I read such illustrious names as, Royal Skandia, Barclay Spencer and Fry International, the alarm bells start ringing.

The best advice I can give ozgirl, if you dont know what to do, do nothing.

Her best course of action would be to wait until she is next in Australia and seek proper professional advice pertinent to her circumstances, not the circumstances some shyster will talk her into for ulterior motives.

Why do you get alarm bells at the name Royal Skandia? I am a little confused by this comment, they are not advisers, they are the custodians for the investments and are very well regulated, please don't confuse this massive global company with financial advisers. if you lose money through Skandia then the fault will lay with the person that selected the investments and not the company holding those investments.

One thing you need to learn is that not ALL these financial advisers are fly by nights, you are right to urge caution and I would do the same to anyone wanting to invest, but she is doing the right thing by asking for recommendations from people that are satisfied with their advisers. I am more than happy to recommend the company i have used for the past 7 years and some of my investments are through Royal Skandia bonds, it is not the bond you need to worry about, it is the investments within the bond that are selected by the adviser. they do get commissions from this so it is always a worry that they will select the investment that pays the most commission, this is why it is important to find a company that will work for you instead of work for themselves. I have managed to do this by asking many questions, never ask the company themselves for references as obviously they will only steer you towards happy customers.

You are of course correct, RS arent advisors, in fact in the words of a RS spokesman,

'We do not provide financial advice, merely offer products'

Above quote, can be found here,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10...k-collapse.html

DarwinK also touched on the IOM, please ask your RS employee, if any money tied up in an IOM bond is protected by an IOM guarantee for personal depositors, I think you will find the RS bond is regarded as a corporate one.

The above source touches on my statement above.

However, just for benefit of the less financially informed, the following link may offer an insight as to what service RS provide,

http://www.royalskandia.com/funds/fund_managers.asp

I believe it was Guesthouse who nailed it with his, dont put your eggs in someone elses basket remark.

This topic rears its ugly head every so often on TV, here are a few examples,

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Uk-Financial...st-t210573.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Question-Mon...vi-t216715.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Barclay-Spen...onal-t7671.html

I suggest not just the op, but everyone takes the time to read, you are swimming in shark infested waters.

Bangkok may be a hub for many things, but financial services isnt one of them, suggest Singapore or Hong Kong for the more savvy, or if in doubt your country of origin, at least you are protected by the laws of your own country a la regulated advisors and regulations in place as well as recourse to an ombudsman.

[OZEMADE]

Yes stick it in an Aussie bank, Credit Union or Building Society. They are paying up to 7% Interest and thats where mine will be staying.

[Gambles]

Wow - a lot of ground to cover here.

I'm the Managing Partner of MBMG Group. I used to post on here quite a lot, including at one stage a daily Aus$ currency commentary for a group of forum members who requested it, under the name,Paul@MBMG but that was objected to as advertising and I was banned for refusing to change my name and hide instead behind a nom de plume. I believe that if I post something (whether it's good, bad or ugly) then people should know, for better or for worse that it's from me. Hence - Gambles (my surname - I'm ready for the barrage of comments about that!!!)

Ozgirl, I believe that there are some extremely competent advisors in Bangkok although I also know that there are also some who experience dictates would be best avoided. There are a great many impartial independent guides on the net to choosing an advisor - let me know if you would like some guidance on how to find these - either in forum or by personal message and I'm happy to point you in the right direction. I'm guessing that you're Australian in which case maybe finding out which advisors work most closely with the likes of AustCham.

Above all though it's important to work with an advisor that you feel comfortable with and who you feel understands your needs and situation. Choosing among the good quality advisors often comes down to a matter of personal taste.

William thinks that financial advisors are one step down from estate agents. I'm no great fan of estate agents but they are generally the best way to buy or sell a property in many locations. Similarly a number of independent studies have shown that clients who use the services of financial advisors overall do far better than those who try to take care of their own affairs. Many financial areas require specialist knowledge and experience. This is true at all times but as I mentioned in a recent interview it's particularly true right now when we're very concerned that increasing volatility and risk will cause insurmountable problems to those who try to take a 'd-i-y' approach.

I'd definitely recommend Bruce's book to everyone which is a great read and a very good starting point on the subject - recommended by Korn Chatikavanij no less!

I'm not sure what GuestHouse's comments mean but if he's suggesting that you only make arrangements that involve secure 3rd party custody of your funds then I would agree with that wholeheartedly (again let me know if anyone wants to know how to find an independent explanation of asset custody and why it's absolutely vital for the safety of any investment anywhere).

It sounds as though Tony is very happy with his contact in Malaysia and while that doesn't necessarily make them right for you, personal recommendation is extremely valuable. That said, I would implore you not to use any Royal Skandia product- we refer to them as Royal Scammed-ia in our office and have refused to allow their representatives through our doors for many years because of their unacceptable shortcomings. What's more, if you are Australian, they have no especially suitable products or services unless you are certain to remain expatriate indefinitely. However to make any comment on suitability or unsuitability of any specific vehicle a detailed understanding of your needs would be necessary. I can send you a sample needs analysis if you wish so you can see the level of information that any of the professional advisors in Bangkok or anywhere else would need to know before giving advice.

Some cynical but very well-made points by ExpatJ -I wouldn't have put it quite like that (although I'm pleased that he/she did!) but

1) Definitely check the experience, qualifications and background of the expat investment advisory staff (the highest professional qualification is the CFA programme - to maintain this requires the highest level of global compliance -

2) Good quality investment products are well-regulated, transparent and generally rated by the likes of Thomson-Reuters-Lipper or S&P...definitely best to avoid syndicated plots in Nakorn Nowhere, Thai forestry, student accommodation in UK etc.

3) Cold calling financial services is generally illegal in Thailand and therefore if someone is breaking the law to contact you (similar principle applies to not having a work permit) then you have and wonder the extent to which they might respect other laws down the line...

RGS/Eyebee - without being able to comment on any of the specifics that you mention, there are shysters everywhere and Australian domestic advice is often inadequate for the expatriate situation - I'd advise the OP to take advice in Aus and locally and to compare the 2 and go with that which suits her needs best. As a generalization I'd say that in my personal opinion the better advice internationally is way better than what's available in Australia and the worst is far worse. Domestic Australian advice tends, in my experience to be more homogenous. If you can find the best advice available internationally, it's extremely high quality. If you can't, then settling for Aussie domestic advice is better than falling foul of bad advice here. However both domestic advice or good quality international advice is way better than doing nothing. Especially right now!

Tony - lots of good advice in your post - "One thing you need to learn is that not ALL these financial advisers are fly by nights, you are right to urge caution and I would do the same to anyone wanting to invest, but she is doing the right thing by asking for recommendations from people that are satisfied with their advisers. I am more than happy to recommend the company I have used for the past 7 years, it is the investments within the bond that are selected by the adviser. they do get commissions from this so it is always a worry that they will select the investment that pays the most commission, this is why it is important to find a company that will work for you instead of work for themselves. I have managed to do this by asking many questions, never ask the company themselves for references as obviously they will only steer you towards happy customers."

A number of advisors use underlying funds that do not pay commissions or rebate these back into the fund. This is an important point. We should have a beer sometime and compare notes on Skandia - we should invite DarwinK though so that I have back-up for my opinions, views and experiences of Skandia! That said some of DarwinK's other generalisations are inaccurate - Guernsey has much higher regulation in many aspects that the Isle of Man.

Finally (phew) DarwinK, in answer to your question, the data that we use is, wherever possible 3rd party data (i.e. we aren't allowed to produce it or touch it ourselves). MBMG doesn't manage Osmium. For over 10 years MBMG has used MitonOptimal as our client portfolio managers. Martin Gray of CF Miton (ranked by S&P as the #1 performing global portfolio manager over the last 5 years and by the Sunday Telegraph as the best of the last 10 years and second only to Asian expert Hugh Young in any kind of investment). For the period prior to June last year Martin's portfolios were run as individual portfolios, based around his CF Miton Special Situations Fund and CF Miton Strategic Fund and the composite performance of these is shown to that period. Since that date they have been run as unitised portfolios (a la unit trusts/mutual funds) to add even greater transparency and security and also to lower costs even further. To show composite performance in this way and then to show the unitised fund performance thereafter is the approved method recommended by the CFA (ideally we should also aim to comply with their GIPS reporting standards in 2012). Let me know if you would like any additional information about Osmium or the exceptional Martin Gray - you're right he has achieved "stonking outperformance" against MSCI the World and the S&P500, beginning in Feb 2000, especially for such a pragmatic, conservative fund, dedicated to capital preservation.

Ozgirl, good luck - I hope this helps. If you want to ask me for any MBMG or independent info then you're very welcome but this is not a pitch for business in any way, shape or form - I'm more concerned that you end up making the right decision for yourself whether that's an advisor in Aus, KL, Bangkok or Outer Mongolia. All the best,

PG

Edited February 2, 2010 by Gambles

[ArranP]

I've used Montpelier since 2007 http://www.montpeliergroup.com/ been very happy with them.

Based in Bangkok.

Edited February 2, 2010 by ArranP

[samran]

stuff em' all.

Keep sticking it into your super fund back in OZ by making voluntary contributions. Easy peasy. Get a industry super fund, even better, lower fee's than yout AMPs of the world and definelty much lower than any 'advisor' will have you pay here in BKK.

Whatever else you want to save for Short Term requirements, stick it into an ING Direct account or similar.

Alternatively, if you are wanting to save tax on your Thai earnings, you could do worse than putting your money into a Thai based Long Term Fund (LTF's). Allows you to offset tax on up to 15% of your salary, if you stick it into one of these stock market linked funds for five callender years (in relaity 3 years and 2 days if you put the money in on the 31st of Dec each year). These funds are linked to blue chip Thai stocks (Banpu, PTT etc). Any capital gains are tax free when you pull the money out at the end of those 5 years.

ING Funds and Aberdeen Asset Management are two of the more respectable LTF providers out there. All the banks have LTF products as well. Fees are reasonable, with no advisor taking an extra cut.

Edited February 2, 2010 by samran

[DarwinK]

MBMG doesn't manage Osmium. For over 10 years MBMG has used MitonOptimal as our client portfolio managers. Martin Gray of CF Miton (ranked by S&P as the #1 performing global portfolio manager over the last 5 years and by the Sunday Telegraph as the best of the last 10 years and second only to Asian expert Hugh Young in any kind of investment). For the period prior to June last year Martin's portfolios were run as individual portfolios, based around his CF Miton Special Situations Fund and CF Miton Strategic Fund and the composite performance of these is shown to that period. Since that date they have been run as unitised portfolios (a la unit trusts/mutual funds) to add even greater transparency and security and also to lower costs even further. To show composite performance in this way and then to show the unitised fund performance thereafter is the approved method recommended by the CFA (ideally we should also aim to comply with their GIPS reporting standards in 2012). Let me know if you would like any additional information about Osmium or the exceptional Martin Gray - you're right he has achieved "stonking outperformance" against MSCI the World and the S&P500, beginning in Feb 2000, especially for such a pragmatic, conservative fund, dedicated to capital preservation.

<phew> Gambles, welcome back. So you're saying that Martin Gray of Miton is the fund manager of the your advertised Osmium fund then? Is there some reason his name and company are not listed on your Osmium promotional information? Why not get Martin's supposed composite performance audited so that you can legitimately use it? Otherwise with no name and no proof, it sure looks like you've just made the performance up. No audited proof in the fund management world is called False Advertising. I bet if you asked them, your CFA group would agree.

(Of course it doesn't help your cause that the "stonking outperformance" ends coincidentally as soon as the actual fund performance begins.)

edited to clarify--Miton is listed on some of MBMG's fund promotional information, but not on Osmium's.

Edited February 3, 2010 by DarwinK

[tonywebster]

Gambles, do you refuse to let Skandia through your doors or do they refuse to deal with you? Just wondering, bare in mind I am very friendly with one of their senior guys in Asia so i would be interested to know?

What scams are you referring to? don't refer to scams and then don't go into detail about it, are they scamming clients? if so how? or are they not paying your commissions? or are they just refusing to allow your company to sell their products?

Some of my money is in a Skandia bond and I have had no problems with it whatsoever, it has sat there for 7 years now, my adviser has put that money in low risk funds at my request as my aim with that investment is to just stay in line with or beat inflation. I am fully aware of the Skandia charges and withdrawal fees, i was fully aware when i signed up how long I chose for my bond etc. i also made myself aware fully of the IoM regulations before I used them.

Also one thing that people need to be aware of there is no guarantees, some funds are guaranteed by banks but then if that bank goes to the wall then so does your guarantee.Also the people saying to just put your money in a bank, I have looked at this and this method is ok in a fixed term if you want to match inflation as an example, but again even the banks these days are not stable.

One think i will say, if someone comes in and starts talking about fantastic returns and talking about figures such as 8 or 9% per year then i suggest you do even greater due diligence against these people.

[DarwinK]

sorry but now I must disagree with you. the IoM is very well regulated, also the insurance companies there must pay into a fund to bail out investors should there insurance company go broke.

Skandia do not control your investment, they are there to offer protection for your money, however the money can be lost by investment in bad funds, but like I said this is the decision of the independent adviser. It is skandia that makes certain that the money is not being laundered etc.

as for providing their services to anybody, again I disagree, they will provide their services to licensed advisers but sadly they have no control over who those advisers employ. Even the cowboy companies must have at least one qualified person or the cowboys will have to put their deals through an approved adviser.

It seems you had a bad time so I am not going to continue this, some people do have bad times and I have no doubt the process of complaining will be arduous but like I said don't confuse what skandia do and what the advisers do.

To clarify, I'm speaking specifically of Skandia and the regulator's roles--not the role of the so-called advisor. Skandia failed in its role as a good custodian (i.e., lost records, improper fees charged, miscalculation of surrender charges, and incredibly slow in taking any action once the problems were pointed out...etc). The Regulator listened to the complaint, but in the end did nothing. After a long period Skandia sorted itself out.

Since this was not an isolated incident, I wonder in how many other cases Skandia or others make gross errors in calculating their customers accounts? The poor transparency of the offerings out of the Isle of Man is one reason why Skandia, Friends Provident, etc can easily get away with making gross errors. The statements provided only give the most basic information of what's in the account. Most investors (and many of the advisors selling the products) have no idea of the layer of fees involved--how could they? The Regulator does not require them to be broken down in the statement. Proper transparency might help them catch gross errors. More simply, it also might help them understand just how high the fees really are and then make better decisions--the best being to steer clear.

Finally, a proper regulator also might require that RS and company only pay commission to regulated individuals. Try tracking some yahoo that lied to you about the policy he sold you in Malaysia 5 years ago--no records exist, RS takes no responsiblility (although they paid out the commission on the sale).

The level of regulation that you describe--protecting investors from losing their funds if the custodian goes broke--is really quite basic. In places like the UK, US, Australia, I think you'll find custodians of investor's funds (usually brokers, not insurance companies) don't take the funds on their balance sheets. In a bankruptcy case, they have no claim to your funds.

[tonywebster]

Thanks for the explanation Darwin. Like I said I have had no issues with them but I am not naive enough to expect that everyone is happy with them, I am sure there have been issues.

[Gambles]

<phew> Gambles, welcome back. So you're saying that Martin Gray of Miton is the fund manager of the your advertised Osmium fund then? Is there some reason his name and company are not listed on your Osmium promotional information? Why not get Martin's supposed composite performance audited so that you can legitimately use it? Otherwise with no name and no proof, it sure looks like you've just made the performance up. No audited proof in the fund management world is called False Advertising. I bet if you asked them, your CFA group would agree.

(Of course it doesn't help your cause that the "stonking outperformance" ends coincidentally as soon as the actual fund performance begins.)

edited to clarify--Miton is listed on some of MBMG's fund promotional information, but not on Osmium's.

Thanks Darwin,

MBMG offer a range of portfolios. Miton's regulated Guernsey entity is the advisor to a number of these (technically the manager being Swiss licensed institutional fund manager Lancelot SARL, but in most cases the investments decisions are made by Miton - I say most because for instance there is a specialist UK property product that Lancelot run for MBMG clients designed to protect the value of existing UK properties that has no input whatsoever from Miton). Some of these are built around the style of Martin Gray and others around that of Scott Campbell. We're happy with this choice because in the last 10 years they have picked up 5 S&P awards between them (Sam Liddle who runs equities for the same group has also bagged a couple as well). To understand how Martin has done so well why not take a look at trustnet. If you go to their website and then add /Managers/ManagerFactsheet.aspx?personCode=00000068KO&univ=U

after their website name (sorry for being so tortuous but I have to respect forum rules on url postings)

Last year Martin, Sam and Scott each visited Bangkok at least once to talk to our clients and explain how they manage the various portfolios and funds and there are plans that each will do so again this year. You should come along and hear it from the horse's mouth because frankly there's no way to do justice to some a complicated area as asset allocation/portfolio management in a forum like this.

Alternatively, Darwin, why don't you make an appointment to come by our offices I'll make available for you every piece of information that you request and you can then put your thoughts onto the forum - I'm not expecting a Damascene conversion from you but I'd like you to have all the facts - in order for regulators to accept the data for portfolios prior to June 2009, we did of course have to provide detailed proof - I can provide you with the various requirements that exist to be able to make such claims. Remember that these are Guernsey regulated portfolios, managed by a Swiss licensed manager, built around the style of one of the UK's most respect fund managers. You can't simply make up data for fun! A really easy way exists to verify the data which is to take the core GBP class of Osmium and compare it with Iridium for the earlier period. Audited data exists for portfolios managed by Scott Campbell as unitised funds with published weekly prices all the way back to 1st March 2002. Prior to that I agree we're reliant on composite data but I think that almost 8 years of audited performance data tells its own story. So please don't imply that the performance is unverified in any way. That's just plain wrong and that's why I think that a face to face chat and I'm even happy for you to meet the various fund and portfolio managers as well if you like, is the best way to make sure that you avoid such misconceptions. I'm being very open here because I believe in transparency is important but I think that it should be 2-way. I don't see the value in a dialogue where you simply throw out claims that are false because you don't have all the data to hand. Heck we can invite everyone from the forum if you like and you can all fire all the questions - we're extremely open and always very keen to talk about what we do and how we do it. So no we haven't made the performance up; it's real and it's verifiable and the fund fact sheets are produced primarily for the investors in the fund, so they obviously can easily verify against their own experience of the portfolios.

In relation to the point about underperformance since June last year, you're right. Trustnet's report makes the point that in the 4 falling markets during the last 10 years (average annual market fall of -13.6%), Martin has made a small average annual profit but conversely Martin has 'only' averaged a gain of 12.2% in rising markets although the average market increase has been over 14.9%. Technically this is perfect average downside avoidance and 80% upside capture. In simple terms Martin has averaged just under 7% per year for the last 10 years during which time the average comparable investment has averaged less than 2% BUT Martin's performance last year was one of these below market periods because he's so concerned at the risk in many asset classes right now and preservation of capital tends to be more important to most wealthy clients than speculative gains. I hope that answers your points and I am serious about an informed open discussion with yourself and anyone else rather than misleading statements on the board. After all, why wouldn't you????

All the best,

Paul

[Gambles]

Gambles, do you refuse to let Skandia through your doors or do they refuse to deal with you? Just wondering, bare in mind I am very friendly with one of their senior guys in Asia so i would be interested to know?

What scams are you referring to? don't refer to scams and then don't go into detail about it, are they scamming clients? if so how? or are they not paying your commissions? or are they just refusing to allow your company to sell their products?

Some of my money is in a Skandia bond and I have had no problems with it whatsoever, it has sat there for 7 years now, my adviser has put that money in low risk funds at my request as my aim with that investment is to just stay in line with or beat inflation. I am fully aware of the Skandia charges and withdrawal fees, i was fully aware when i signed up how long I chose for my bond etc. i also made myself aware fully of the IoM regulations before I used them.

Also one thing that people need to be aware of there is no guarantees, some funds are guaranteed by banks but then if that bank goes to the wall then so does your guarantee.Also the people saying to just put your money in a bank, I have looked at this and this method is ok in a fixed term if you want to match inflation as an example, but again even the banks these days are not stable.

One think i will say, if someone comes in and starts talking about fantastic returns and talking about figures such as 8 or 9% per year then i suggest you do even greater due diligence against these people.

Yes Tony we do refuse to let them through the door. This ban was originally put in place when their regional director was a chap called John Robertson and has been maintained since then. We have no agency to sell Royal Skandia products - we requested this be withdrawn at the time that we launched a successful class action suit againt Royal Skandia on behalf of 26 investors who had been misled by Skandia and suffered financial loss as a consequence. We felt that it was inappropriate to maintain terms of business with such an organization. For legal reasons (gagging order by Skandia as part of the 'steps of the court' settlement) I'm not allowed to go into detail about that action but it was the only time that we have ever needed to involve ourselves in such an action in 16 years operating in Thailand. They did try to pursue us for new business after that but 4 subsequents cases (2 with successful IoM Ombudsman complaints on behalf of clients, one that we're currently looking into on behalf of a client and one which only affected MBMG and not our clients but was a case of Skandia reneging on an agreement) resulted in us effectively banning Skandia completely and permanently. For the record, their response at that stage was to withdraw our servicing agency meaning that they wouldn't give us access to normal servicing information about our clients who held Skandia policies. You have to speak as you find but my experiences with Royal Skandia have been that they do not satisfy our ethical standards requirements. Providers in the offshore industry in general are major institutions with credible track records and good reputations. We have major issues with Royal Skandia but we would be very keen to make the point that one bad apple doesn't spoil a whole bunch. If you are happy with them, then I'm pleased for you but I believe in speaking as you find and my experience with them has been that they do not maintain an ethical standard that meets our requirements. They also have a reputation (I can't say how true this is or not) for indiscriminately awarding agencies to any advisor who will offer them business without neccessarily undertaking the strictest due diligence on the advisor. Therefore, rightly or wrongly, we hold Skandia significantly accountable for teh proliferation of insufficiently qualified and insufficiently capitalised advisors in lightly regulated markets such as Bangkok.

Let's be clear - they are a large company. They are regulated. They satisfy minimum solvency requirements. They have even won industry awards but they are not my cup of tea. If they are yours, Tony, I'm delighted for you. Each very much to theri own but caveat emptor!

[ExpatJ]

To the OP, my recommnedation in Thailand would be to go with ING- multi national, solid (now with backing of some Euro government's infact since the crisis), www.infunds,co,th

They have some interesting mutual funds- a China M. Fund, BRIC emerging markets M. Fund especially. Put some money in those , leave for 5-10 years- should give you solid returns. My BRIC M Fund dropped 25% during the crisis but is now back up by almost same amount.

For a riskier investment by Thai airways shares- new management there is really changing the operating model and the share price is at a very low point now- good buying opportunity in my humble opinion and have bought a few myself

Edited February 4, 2010 by ExpatJ