100,000 Enrol To Be Monks For The Kings Wellbeing.

[marshbags]

My son I am proud to say has himself enrolled to pray for the kings well being and the good of his beloved Thailand.

We have to visit the Wat in Nong Sean and while it has been a very enlightening and humbling experience for us his parents and everyone who we came into contact with.

There are by the way 106 Thai citizens, of all differing ages from the outlying areas at this particular Wat who entered on the 19-01-10

Today we had to go to a very moving ceremony to give our soon to be enrolled monks their yellow robes / dress ect.

They are all in white and they have now left for B.Kok and the Tamagi Wat ( that,s what the prunciation sounds like ) were the will become monks on the 6th and change into their yellow robes.

We then return on the 8th to witness them becoming qualified monks ?????

Many today shed a few tears, both the soon to be monks and their relatives when they said sorry to them and asked for forgiveness for their shortcomings to us their parents and all other indiscretions that have happened in thier lives.

marshbags

P.S.

One parent for whatever reason, today chose to turn up in a red shirt with the usual stuff on it ???

He was very serious looking and his expressions on looking around at all that was happening were not of a friendly nature to say the least.

To say it was a shock, to me a Westerner was understating my feelings towards him.

How sad he couldn,t at least show respect toward the respective good intentions and sincerity of everyone else who was a proud part of this marvelous occasion and dress differently on this very important day.

Edited February 4, 2010 by marshbags

[bjoe97]

The trouble with this post is how to gives one true opinion without offending.

I have a different view.

I cannot see how ,apart from a nice cute little gesture shaving ones head and becoming a monk in something here called a religion when its in actual fact a philosophy for a few days head can really help anyone.

I hope the king gets well.I hope any sick person in the world gets well too.

But them again if it makes people happy.

[marshbags]

The trouble with this post is how to gives one true opinion without offending.

I have a different view.

I cannot see how ,apart from a nice cute little gesture shaving ones head and becoming a monk in something here called a religion when its in actual fact a philosophy for a few days head can really help anyone.

I hope the king gets well.I hope any sick person in the world gets well too.

But them again if it makes people happy.

Many Thai males for whatever reasons do at some stage in their lives feel the need to enrol as monks.

It is considered respectful and good luck for the parents / family members and I have always looked on it positively over the years.

Thai culture definitely comes into the scenario of course in a big way.

My son decided he wanted to become a monk with a hope of giving us his parents a long life, good health ect

While we were making enquiries about which Wat was considered respectful in relatiion to the religion and most important for our son, was out of the city.

Local requirements and demands of those perhaps less dedicated and enrolled for various other reasons play a a big part in the environment they have to live in. ??????

Anyway we approached the government Puyai and they mentioned this dedication to the King, asked us if we would join the group and my son / we thought it was a marvelous idea to apply for this and dedicate it to HRH.

Our families will along with our soon to be monks, I,m sure, remember it for the rest of our lives, be they short or long.

It was incidently on the Thai news yesterday for an hour and the sight of 100,000 junior monks ??? takng part in the ceromony at Bangkok was an amazing sight for everyone personally involved.

Of course everyone is entitled to their views of whatever the outcome of this wonderful gesture may be for them, but for many it is an honourable and worthwhile occasion.

Tomorrow at all the Wats throughout the Nation, our loved ones will take part in an hour long ceremony to be granted the honourable status they have entered the monkhood for.

Ours at Nong Saeng starts at 4am and is done in groups of 30, which is then split up into three,s at a time.

It will be a long day for the senior monks, that,s for sure.

We have to go at 11.30 and then await our groups turn, sometime later, possibly starting after their temple lunch ect.

Our son is number 79 so it could be a longish wait.

They all go back to Tamagi Wat in B.kok on the 26th of Feb. for 10 days before returning to their respective local Wats and leaving to return home on the 8th of March.

Thank you to those who have taken time to read my posts and support the good intentions of those who have enrolled.

marshbags

Edited February 7, 2010 by marshbags

[PoorSucker]

I was at an ordination last year in my new families village.

44 junior monks.

On week of celebration on the football field outside the school.

During the week the close family had buildt temporary homes at the edges of the field

They slept the last week with the monks to become and offered food to all.

They were carried around hole week in different costumes and blessed all the houses in the village.

My wife's little brother was to young this time nut is going to be ordained next time in four years.

Very important for the families and for the village community.

My wife bought me traditional dress so I should fit in better.

I had no problems fitting in as I enjoy Loa Khao.

This is small village 14 km from Burmese border in Chiang Mai.

[Loz]

My reluctance to comment more deeply is born out of a "concern" for the practices within the Tamagi.

Seen a number of wealthy people divest themselves of their goods and chattles while being "wooed" by these folks only to be put on the back shelf when the well runs dry.

Hard not to sound cautionary whenever their name comes up.

I wish his Majesty every best chance of improved health.

[camerata]

I cannot see how ,apart from a nice cute little gesture shaving ones head and becoming a monk in something here called a religion when its in actual fact a philosophy for a few days head can really help anyone.

It depends on one's definition of "religion." The general understanding these days is not something like "belief in a supreme being," but more like "belief in any system involving supranatural forces." For example, from dictionary.com:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects

Apart from the definition, there's the way people practise their beliefs. If you believe that a Buddha image can protect you, for example, then it's more like a religion. If you believe there is a natural universal law of karma governing the lives of humans and that you will be reborn in a situation according to this law, it's more like a religion.

[camerata]

It is considered respectful and good luck for the parents / family members and I have always looked on it positively over the years.

Thai culture definitely comes into the scenario of course in a big way.

My son decided he wanted to become a monk with a hope of giving us his parents a long life, good health ect

Congratulations marshbags. AFAIK, the deeper idea behind ordaining "for the parents" is actually to transfer the merit gained from ordaining to the parents. If the parents are deceased, apparently the merit can be transferred to them if they ended up in the Hungry Ghost realm.

Another thing is the Buddha said we can never repay the debt we owe to our parents, and the best way we can attempt to do this is to teach them the Dhamma. Someone who had been a monk for awhile might be able to do this.

More importantly, the way I see it, is what the son himself gets out of the experience.

As for Wat Dhammakaya (to give it the correct spelling), it's controversial for several reasons but it does seem to take ordination seriously and insist that monks be a good example - something Thai people very much want to see. The Dhammakaya sect has been associated with Thaksin and the TRT, which is allegedly why charges of embezzlement against the abbot were unexpectedly dropped during Thaksin's tenure, so I don't know why a Red Shirt would have a problem with them.

[phetaroi]

The trouble with this post is how to gives one true opinion without offending.

I have a different view.

I cannot see how ,apart from a nice cute little gesture shaving ones head and becoming a monk in something here called a religion when its in actual fact a philosophy for a few days head can really help anyone.

I hope the king gets well.I hope any sick person in the world gets well too.

But them again if it makes people happy.

When you question someone else's moral beliefs, you will always offend.

Whether it is a religion or philosophy is, in my view, nearly irrelevant. One has been important to mankind from nearly its inception is a moral code. Buddhism, as it's practiced in Thailand, is the basis of the Thai moral code. Just like any other religion or philosophy, it has its inconsistencies and does not often lead to perfection of the person or the nation. Nevertheless, I find Thailand to be a comparatively moral place with mostly pretty good people, and their beliefs and philosophies are much of the reason they are what they are. And, it's certainly much better than the person or nation that adheres to no moral compass.

[marshbags]

Thanks first of all for the replies and also enlightening me further re the goodness and traditional aspects of this much revered Buddhist / Thai occasion.

We went to the Wat at Nong Saeng this morning to see our loved ones become monks in the final stage of their achievement.

They all went to another temple about 4 Km,s away for a 3 o,clock start this morning.

We all followed as and when we were asked to arrive for our respective groups with some getting there before 3 am.

Everyone stayed on throughout the day and it has only just finished at 16.30.

It was a joy being there and the fuss that everyone made and the feeling of being equal is something I haven,t seen nor experienced before among so many diverse families, anywhere.

I find it hard to imagine that so much unrest is going on at present, especially in our part of the N.East. where everyone comes from.

The new monks are really proud, happy and helping each other at all times, in particular the ones who are struggling a little with various aspects of what they are doing, especially their new robes and making sure all look their best.

On a less happy note, many have been asking why, when they went to Wat Dhammakaya ( thanks Camerata ) were they made to sit on the concrete floor all day and not doing any actual religious ceromonies ect.

If you saw them on TV as we did, when they kept moving it wasn,t as we thought because of sitting for long periods, it was because of the heat coming from the concrete, which was burning them.

Bloody Hells Bells !!! Why put them through this ???

They also said they felt like show pieces as the day went by and nothing else was happening and all were obviously very disappointed indeed.

Last of all while many have said they are dreading going back for another 10 days if this is all that will be happening to them during their stay.

Some have even been saying they will not be going back there, for which I hope they can possibly find it within themselves to go and complete a successful / wonderful achievement they can carry with them for the rest of their lives.

We all return just before they leave for the final 10 days, possibly the day before to take civilian clothes for them to change into after completing the 49 day celebration.

By the way, they all go out on a 15 Km walk on either 5 or 7 continuous days to various temples in the area, prior to returning to B.Kok.

No matter how anyone wishes to look at this achievement, it has been done with dedication, love, lots of hard graft and much individual sacrifice.

No one can ever take that away from them and I am proud via my son to be a minor support part of it all.

HRH the King will be very proud them also, all 100,000 I.M. Humble O.

It certainly isn,t a picnic...believe me, those who may be doubting their intentions.

Finally

Thank you everyone for your added input and support via this thread.

marshbags

Edited February 8, 2010 by marshbags

[Xangsamhua]

The trouble with this post is how to gives one true opinion without offending.

I have a different view.

I cannot see how ,apart from a nice cute little gesture shaving ones head and becoming a monk in something here called a religion when its in actual fact a philosophy for a few days head can really help anyone.

I hope the king gets well.I hope any sick person in the world gets well too.

But them again if it makes people happy.

When you question someone else's moral beliefs, you will always offend.

Whether it is a religion or philosophy is, in my view, nearly irrelevant. One has been important to mankind from nearly its inception is a moral code. Buddhism, as it's practiced in Thailand, is the basis of the Thai moral code. Just like any other religion or philosophy, it has its inconsistencies and does not often lead to perfection of the person or the nation. Nevertheless, I find Thailand to be a comparatively moral place with mostly pretty good people, and their beliefs and philosophies are much of the reason they are what they are. And, it's certainly much better than the person or nation that adheres to no moral compass.

Phetaroi, why would we be offended if someone questioned our moral beliefs? Surprised, shocked maybe, but why offended?

Perhaps it depends on the distance between another's moral views and our own. If I believe that late abortion is wrong, but another disagrees, should I be offended? And if I am, what do I do then? Never speak to that person again? Lament the fact that there are such immoral people in the world? Get angry with that person and attack his/her views? None of these alternatives seem very constructive to me. However, if some lout in the pub starts telling all and sundry that Jews or Blacks, or whoever, should be run out of town, I think I would be offended. I would find it offensive, even if I were a bit detached myself - not willing to argue the point or stand up for decency.

A position of righteous indignation may not be the best position from which to explore another's views or ascertain what the conditions were for that view having arisen. I suggest that, even if we're unsettled by someone's views we still need to be open to a challenge to our own.

I recently read a strange little book by James B Carse, "The Religious Case Against Belief". Carse is Emeritus Professor of Religion at New York University. I say the book is strange because the heading is provocative ("making the familiar strange" - we all know that religion is about belief) and because I don't think he convinces that religion is not about belief at all. However, he makes some interesting points. For example, he says that any commitment to a belief is a commitment to unbelief. One commits to rejecting an alternative or opposite belief to that which one has chosen. This, of course, requires us to set up fences around our beliefs in order that they won't be sullied by other (wrong) beliefs and so we have orthodoxy and people who know what they believe and stick to their guns. However, if the decision to believe, e.g. in the evil of late abortion, is a freely chosen one (albeit after investigating the facts and arguments), then the belief becomes a barrier against any possible alternative belief.

Carse believes it's better not to have "beliefs" and the emotional baggage and intellectual paralysis that goes with them, and argues that, at its core, religion is about openness to mystery and that the great world religions in fact acknowledge ignorance of what may be the case that we don't yet know about - what may yet be revealed. I don't think he really succeeds in driving his case home, but in my view he makes a lot of valid points about the limits of "belief".

Perhaps it's better to have only tentative "beliefs" and therefore be free of of the emotional backwash of "being offended".

Edited February 8, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[phetaroi]

Phetaroi, why would we be offended if someone questioned our moral beliefs? Surprised, shocked maybe, but why offended?

I think I need to restate my premise...I was lazy in writing what I meant.

I actually wouldn't be offended if someone questioned the depth of my own personal moral beliefs. If they say to me, for example, "Well, Vince, based on your actions you don't appear to really believe what you say you believe." Okay, fair enough. We can discuss it and I might learn something myself.

What I find offensive is to denigrate anyone's belief system. My son and his wife (who are Muslim) and I (Buddhist) were watching a film one night on cable. I can't recall what it was about...even whether it was a drama or comedy...but it had something religious in it, and it mentioned the Pope. My son started joking about "the Poop". I reprimanded him quite severely and he just laughed it off. So I made a joke about the word "Imam", which he found offensive. Ultimately, he got the point and apologized. "I didn't think it would bother you because you're not even Catholic." "No, I'm not...any longer...but I still respect religious belief systems.

I'm not so sure why I "stick up" for other people's religions, but unless they are something beyond the pale, I usually do. I'm from Palmyra, New York -- the birthplace of Mormonism -- but I've never been a Mormon. When a born-again Christian very dear friend said, "Well, if that angel really did give Joseph Smith the Golden Plates, show us the plates!" To which I replied, "Well, if Moses really did bring down the tablets with Ten Commandments, show us the tablets." "Well, that's different!" And my answer led to a long and fruitful discussion that we should respect other people's religions, even if the beliefs are different than our own.

Edited February 9, 2010 by camerata
Unnecessary quote deleted.

[Xangsamhua]

First of all, apologies to Marshbags, for diverting his thread, and metta to his son for his efforts on behalf of his family and HM the King.

Phetaroi, I thought I may have misread your intentions, as I did, and I love your examples. Perhaps the reaction you describe to uncalled for and uninformed slights against others' beliefs is not so much a felt need to defend those beliefs and their adherents (they can usually defend themselves quite well), but a reaction against ignorance presented as knowledge, something a former schoolteacher and school administrator would find objectionable.

Carse's point is that the truly religious (he cites Galileo and Nicholas of Cusa) are aware that any present belief is simply a stage in the path to knowledge proceeding from and through "learned ignorance" and that we may, probably will, never discover the secret that unlocks the Mystery.

We dance round in a ring and suppose,

But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.

(Robert Frost: The Secret Sits.)

Perhaps, in keeping with the path metaphor, Frost's lines from Stopping By Woods are more apt:

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,

But I have promises to keep,

And miles to go before I sleep,

And miles to go before I sleep.

Believers, on the other hand, must believe they have arrived, at least as far as they are allowed (by God, or the limits of human reason). They confuse the woods, lovely, dark and deep as they are, with their destination. And the destination, for the religious person, though a form of enlightenment, is also "dark and deep". The anonymous 14^th century mystic called it "The Cloud of Unknowing".

The Buddha never tried to enlighten his audience about cosmic origins, temporal or spatial infinity, etc., focusing on the practice, though he did draw on the standard cosmologies of his day. In his teaching, he also relativized his doctrine by inviting his hearers to test it by their experience. Not that he presented his teachings as mere hypotheses, but he allowed them to be treated as hypothetical by his hearers. Had he wanted to establish a fixed and firm belief system, he would have presented his teaching as absolute and undeniable and he would have ensured that a core leadership was clearly mandated with the task of preserving, protecting and further systematizing his doctrine after his death. He did none of these things, leaving his followers just the Dhamma and the Sangha, with no designated successor. Despite the later interpolation of the "promise to Peter" (Matthew 16:18), there is no reliable indication that Jesus did either. It seems that the great teachers and the ancient religions can help us on the path to the truth that is "unknowing", as long as we're careful not to "believe" (too much). Hence, we will not be offended if our beliefs are slighted, but we will be protective of the beliefs of others when we see them as sojourners on the same road as ourselves.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Xangsamhua

[phetaroi]

A beautiful and very "thoughful" post. I enjoyed reading it.

Reminded me of this poem, which I now read something completely different into it:

I could see the forest from my window.

Whether spring, summer, fall, or winter, its canopy was my horizon in nearly every direction.

No matter what the season or weather, it became a welcome home where I could wander alone,

Pondering my own strengths and weaknesses as I walked among the strangers of the woods.

My very first visit was in the spring.

Willows wept as their branches shattered in the spring breeze.

Delicate blooms on the cherry, apple, and peach trees, caught my attention as their beautiful buds burned brightly,

Coaxed out in youthful exuberance by the year's first warm breezes.

Those blossoms had little substance, however.

Their petals dropped as flakes in a late spring snow.

By summer all the trees were showing off their full growth of leaves.

My favorites were the maples.

Some were red, others silver, most just plain green.

The color of their leaves wasn't as important, as was their unique shape, not unlike that of an exotic ink blot.

The ferns and umbrella plants grew under the maples, protected by the dense shade that is so welcome in a hot July.

Then came the chill winds of autumn.

The leaves of the fruit trees, which were so beautiful in the spring, were drab now, and were the first to fall to the earth.

The maples were a fading orange and yellow.

Only one tree -- the evergreen retained its youthful color.

But, before long I realized it was sharp to the touch, and grew only on shifting sands carried away by swirling brooks.

It was in the fall when I met a new friend -- the mighty oak!

Of course, it had been there all the time.

During spring the flashy fruit blossoms had outshined the oak.

By summer, clouds of maple leaves obliterated the mighty overlord of the forest.

But now, as most trees grew bare, oak leaves were still a flaming red!

Their brilliance drew my attention ever upwards,

And I realized my new friend protected the entire forest with its outspread branches that stretched forever.

Now winter has come, and though the oak is bare, I know that come spring I can count on it alone to still stand,

Its sturdy trunk protecting it from the woodsman, and its deep roots clutching the earth, So that it is untouched by blizzard winds or the icy clutch of snow.

To find such strength is the dream of every man.

And yet, there is always an oak to be found.

The wise man says you can't see the forest for the trees.

I am wiser still.

I know you can't see the tree for the forest.

But you...still you are dazzled by the fleeting flowers of spring.

Still do you wallow in the quest for that ink blot.

And, are you happy? Content? Satisfied?

No!

Come search for your ever dependable oak.

Let its branches reach out and cover you with protection.

Edited February 10, 2010 by camerata
Quote deleted.

[Xangsamhua]

Did you write this, Phetaroi? (I couldn't find it on google ) It's very evocative of North American cool temperate zones. You can almost taste the natural abundance of that part of the world. And that's my response, having lived most of my life in Mediterranean, sub-tropical and tropical climates.

Thank you for posting it.

[bjoe97]

The trouble with this post is how to gives one true opinion without offending.

I have a different view.

I cannot see how ,apart from a nice cute little gesture shaving ones head and becoming a monk in something here called a religion when its in actual fact a philosophy for a few days head can really help anyone.

I hope the king gets well.I hope any sick person in the world gets well too.

But them again if it makes people happy.

When you question someone else's moral beliefs, you will always offend.

Whether it is a religion or philosophy is, in my view, nearly irrelevant. One has been important to mankind from nearly its inception is a moral code. Buddhism, as it's practiced in Thailand, is the basis of the Thai moral code. Just like any other religion or philosophy, it has its inconsistencies and does not often lead to perfection of the person or the nation. Nevertheless, I find Thailand to be a comparatively moral place with mostly pretty good people, and their beliefs and philosophies are much of the reason they are what they are. And, it's certainly much better than the person or nation that adheres to no moral compass.

One should never be afraid to offend something which one honetly truly believes to be.....I'll try and be polite.... misguided.

and I wish that moral code would extend to allowing foreigners to enter these so called holy places for free like the locals.

What does that honestly say about this solid 'religion"

is that good, fair, just,moral, welcoming.

I tell you what it is- its joke and blatently racist.

I once asked a senior monk why this was. His monty python answer was " because I am older than you and know more"!!!!

Thats just about sums it up for me.

Can you imagine a sign outside a church in europe saying "thai's have to pay 10 euros"

Is that what you would call a moral place which sets a good example?

I have nothing against true buddhism. But I do have an issue with mans interpration of something designed to enlighten and makes us better people being so offmark.

[camerata]

One should never be afraid to offend something which one honetly truly believes to be.....I'll try and be polite.... misguided.

and I wish that moral code would extend to allowing foreigners to enter these so called holy places for free like the locals.

What does that honestly say about this solid 'religion"

is that good, fair, just,moral, welcoming.

I tell you what it is- its joke and blatently racist.

Since we are now way off topic and going down a well-trodden path to nowhere, I suggest you look up the word racist in the dictionary, get your facts straight and start a new topic in the appropriate forum about whatever is bothering you. The fact is virtually every temple in Thailand is free for all to enter. There are just a few with some specific historical interest that charge non-residents. That's not good, but it isn't the general situation you are making it out to be.

//TOPIC CLOSED

[camerata]

//Topic re-opened as the OP will have more to add fairly soon.

The topic is ordination. Any more off-topic posts will be deleted.

[phetaroi]

Did you write this, Phetaroi? (I couldn't find it on google ) It's very evocative of North American cool temperate zones. You can almost taste the natural abundance of that part of the world. And that's my response, having lived most of my life in Mediterranean, sub-tropical and tropical climates.

Thank you for posting it.

Yes, it is mine. And although at the time of writing it had nothing to do with Buddhism, when I read it again the other day I found things that reminded me of some of what I am seeking with Buddhism. It seemed to have some small collection to the intent of the OP...although maybe it's just something I am seeing.