Whats The Big Deal About Flippin The Birdie?

[nasajsc]

Whats the big deal here about 'flippin the finger', 'up your', 'giving the birdie', etc...

Flip someone in Oz, they do it back to you, no big deal. Life goes on.

Same in the states, maybe they tailgate you for a bit while you outrun them.

Do it in Paris to a motorcyclist, they will knock your car mirror off, but still not a big deal.

Do it here, you get beaten, stabbed, shot... Whats going on? Why?

I asked my wife, apparently its very rude, same as showing your penis to someone, or

very seriously insulting their father or mother.

Where did the Thais get the connection that flippin is the same as showing genitals?

Even Bush did it...

[GungaDin]

30 years ago, in Aus, if you gave someone the thumbs up sign, it was considered a rude gesture, not so in the UK, as I soon learned.

Same goes for pointing your bare feet at someone, or patting children on the head in Thailand.

It's called another country's "culture".

You must be from Dubbo ...

Don't do it here, buy the book! It's called "Culture Shock--Thailand".

Edited February 4, 2010 by GungaDin

[oevna]

Even Bush did it...

Not sure Bush is the best person to use as an example of tact, but I guess I see your point!

I think it has less to do with the severity of the "birdie" gesture in Thailand vs. other countries than it is to do with the way insults in general are taken in Thailand vs. other countries. My experience has been that any outright verbal insult is taken much more seriously in Thailand than it is in the US (where I come from). This is just a cultural difference. Thai people tend to be more indirect in their criticisms of others when spoken to their face, and the "birdie" is pretty much right there in your face.

Note that when I say "my experience," I mean "my observation of others." I'm not in the habit of insulting people frivolously, and certainly not in Thailand!

[ukrules]

I think it has less to do with the severity of the "birdie" gesture in Thailand vs. other countries than it is to do with the way insults in general are taken in Thailand vs. other countries.

In most places only children would fight over such a minor irrelevancy. The problem in Thailand is that the inability to accept any kind of criticism appears to be widespread.

[nasajsc]

Apparently here in Thai, the worst insult is to speak bad of the persons' mother and father.

You can swear at them, call them a F***wit, S***head, almost anything is ok, but as soon

as you say "you do stupid as your father", they go all out crazy. Cannot insult the parents

here.

That's why I am confused about the birdie - it is directed at the person, not their father or mother,

hence why do they get so upset about it?

Edited February 4, 2010 by nasajsc

[BigWheelMan]

I think it has less to do with the severity of the "birdie" gesture in Thailand vs. other countries than it is to do with the way insults in general are taken in Thailand vs. other countries.

In most places only children would fight over such a minor irrelevancy. The problem in Thailand is that the inability to accept any kind of criticism appears to be widespread.

That’s rubbish.

In Thailand it means that people expect more respectful behaviour. There is a total lack of respect in the West nowadays and it`s not welcome here. This is what makes Thailand such a great place to live.

Why would anyone want to make these sorts of gestures?

When Farangs move to Thailand they need to lose their Western aggression, as it`s not tolerated in Thailand.

Edited February 4, 2010 by BigWheelMan

[nasajsc]

When Farangs move to Thailand they need to lose their Western aggression, as it`s not tolerated in Thailand.

So just beat and stab the foreigner to death? Like the German guy in Phuket a week or so ago, and the guy

in Chiang Mai shot to death a few weeks ago.

Whatever happened to 'jai yen yen', 'mai pen rai', and the 'jai dee' of Thai people? Or is that propaganda?

What about live and let live - someone gives you the birdie, you give it back to them, honk the horn, and life

continues - I would not stab anyone for flipping me while driving!

[oevna]

I think it has less to do with the severity of the "birdie" gesture in Thailand vs. other countries than it is to do with the way insults in general are taken in Thailand vs. other countries.

In most places only children would fight over such a minor irrelevancy. The problem in Thailand is that the inability to accept any kind of criticism appears to be widespread.

That’s rubbish.

In Thailand it means that people expect more respectful behaviour. There is a total lack of respect in the West nowadays and it`s not welcome here. This is what makes Thailand such a great place to live.

Why would anyone want to make these sorts of gestures?

When Farangs move to Thailand they need to lose their Western aggression, as it`s not tolerated in Thailand.

While I agree with the general sentiment of "when in Rome, do as the Romans do," I don't have any disdain for the Western attitude any more than the Thai attitude. I think of this as just a matter of cultural differences, which are amusing to see, and pose an interesting challenge to adapt to while traveling abroad. I don't judge one attitude as better than the other. Not saying you do either, but it seems like you favor one over the other...

Another way of putting it is that I like to razz my friends and colleagues as much as the next guy, because I know they'll take it the right way (and vice versa). But when I'm in a situation where I don't know how it will be taken, I'm a bit more cautious and try to observe how the locals interact before putting my big American foot in my mouth!

[oevna]

When Farangs move to Thailand they need to lose their Western aggression, as it`s not tolerated in Thailand.

So just beat and stab the foreigner to death? Like the German guy in Phuket a week or so ago, and the guy

in Chiang Mai shot to death a few weeks ago.

Whatever happened to 'jai yen yen', 'mai pen rai', and the 'jai dee' of Thai people? Or is that propaganda?

What about live and let live - someone gives you the birdie, you give it back to them, honk the horn, and life

continues - I would not stab anyone for flipping me while driving!

Good point, but I think that the Thais who would stab a foreigner to death over a perceived insult are in the minority. We hear about them because they make the news, while the vast majority of Thais live pretty normal, non-violent lives.

The problem, in my opinion, is that it is hard for us foreigners to tell who can be easily set off and who is "jai yen yen" in Thailand, because we aren't as sensitive to the subtle queues that tell Thais which other Thais are dangerous. Where I come from, there are definitely people who it would be dangerous to piss off. I'm sure visiting Thais would have a hard time telling them apart from me, too.

[nasajsc]

You must be from Dubbo ...

No actually, I grew up in Caulfield South in Melbourne, do you know it? Tram

67 passes through it. Or Caulfield Station on the Frankston/Dandenong Line.

Never been to the outback.

Edited February 4, 2010 by nasajsc

[ozzieovaseas]

The thing people dont seem to consider is how an Asian person would get treated in our country, if they had the nerve to do the flipper or similar on one of us..they more often than not would be the victim of road rage

Im pretty sure that large numbers of our bogan society would not take this crapola from someone who was just a visitor TO OUR country,.."are lucky to be in OUR country" or more likely to the thinking of "shouldnt even be in OUR country"

The reality is Asians often scamper around like scared church mice in our countries as they KNOW better than to try to crap on someone elses turf. Dont think ive ever seen a lone one silly enough to do the flipper or invite that sort of trouble anyway (ok..gang scene excluded!)

If farangs in LOS used that logic however, instead of living by the same sword as their fallen anscestors, then the dead ones may have lived a little longer.

Edited February 4, 2010 by ozzieovaseas

[Nignoy]

Dont know what part of Aus you guys come from, try flipping some one the bird in Brisbane or on the Warrego on a friday afternoon , you will get run off the road beaten up or even worse, road rage is international, must admit the thai reaction is always a bit extreme,after witnessing a few slice and dice neighbours quarrells in darkest esan in the 60,s I learned at a very early age , thai logic whyrisk injury in a fistfight when a golok or a gun does the job much quicker

[bjohn34]

Apparently the OP's exposure to the "states" is extremely limited.

In any number of situations in many places, flipping the bird gets you shot.

You're correct.

Some think that just because they can act like rude, low class gutter crawlers in their home country without penalty, they should be able to do so anywhere without regard for local culture.

[phetaroi]

...

In Thailand it means that people expect more respectful behaviour. There is a total lack of respect in the West nowadays and it`s not welcome here. This is what makes Thailand such a great place to live.

Why would anyone want to make these sorts of gestures?

When Farangs move to Thailand they need to lose their Western aggression, as it`s not tolerated in Thailand.

I agree with you. Just because something is widespread, that doesn't mean it's good or right. And frankly -- although I can only speak for the U.S. and not Australia -- the idea that it is "widespread" is up for debate. I think it rather depends on who you hang around with and where you hang out. The group I worked with and hung out with in the States...not sure I can ever remember one of them giving anyone the finger, although we certainly saw it done.

[phetaroi]

So just beat and stab the foreigner to death? Like the German guy in Phuket a week or so ago, and the guy

in Chiang Mai shot to death a few weeks ago.

Whatever happened to 'jai yen yen', 'mai pen rai', and the 'jai dee' of Thai people? Or is that propaganda?

What about live and let live - someone gives you the birdie, you give it back to them, honk the horn, and life

continues - I would not stab anyone for flipping me while driving!

Frankly, I think you're being rather Neanderthal about this. Your visiting their country, adjust your behavior. It certainly won't kill you to be polite.

No one is saying anyone should be killed. But "jai yen" and "jai dee" is not giving someone the finger.

[Lite Beer]

Post Deleted.

8) Not to post extremely negative views of Thailand or derogatory comments directed towards all Thais.

[longstebe]

Different country, different views.

It's seen as a rude gesture no matter where you go.

[endure]

"Whats the big deal here about 'flippin the finger', 'up your', 'giving the birdie', etc...

Flip someone in Oz, they do it back to you, no big deal. Life goes on.

Same in the states, maybe they tailgate you for a bit while you outrun them.

Do it in Paris to a motorcyclist, they will knock your car mirror off, but still not a big deal.

Do it here, you get beaten, stabbed, shot... Whats going on? Why?

I asked my wife, apparently its very rude, same as showing your penis to someone, or

very seriously insulting their father or mother.

Where did the Thais get the connection that flippin is the same as showing genitals?

Even Bush did it..."

It's rude. It's low class. It's trailer trash behaviour. If you want Thai people to think you're trailer trash go ahead and flip the bird. Be prepared to accept the consequences.

[Tejas]

Different country, different views.

It's seen as a rude gesture no matter where you go.

Here is a little known fact among Western males: Thai females have a "secret" birdy. Ask them and maybe they will show you. I have been here for decades and did not even know it until this year.

In case you think I am joking, think again. They really don't flip the birdy the same way. Not that they can't, but in many cases they will do it and you will not even know it.

Basically, they take their thumb and put it between their first two fingers. It almost looks like a fist, but a bit of the thumb is sticking out. If you see that, she is saying "<deleted>" but not in a nice way.

[Heng]

You won't get shot, stabbed, etc. every single time, or even most of the time. It's only when you run into someone having a bad day, has an attitude problem, and is armed. I'd say your odds are 1,000 to 1 per birdie.

[kiwiaussie]

You must be from Dubbo ...

No actually, I grew up in Caulfield South in Melbourne, do you know it? Tram

67 passes through it. Or Caulfield Station on the Frankston/Dandenong Line.

Never been to the outback.

Don't forget the 64 tram which I caught to school everyday.

[tigerfish]

Different country, different views.

It's seen as a rude gesture no matter where you go.

Here is a little known fact among Western males: Thai females have a "secret" birdy. Ask them and maybe they will show you. I have been here for decades and did not even know it until this year.

In case you think I am joking, think again. They really don't flip the birdy the same way. Not that they can't, but in many cases they will do it and you will not even know it.

Basically, they take their thumb and put it between their first two fingers. It almost looks like a fist, but a bit of the thumb is sticking out. If you see that, she is saying "<deleted>" but not in a nice way.

quite true!

[Heng]

That's actually the secret symbol for "I've just taken out a loan on our house that you paid for, sucker."

[Garry9999]

Different country, different views.

It's seen as a rude gesture no matter where you go.

Here is a little known fact among Western males: Thai females have a "secret" birdy. Ask them and maybe they will show you. I have been here for decades and did not even know it until this year.

In case you think I am joking, think again. They really don't flip the birdy the same way. Not that they can't, but in many cases they will do it and you will not even know it.

Basically, they take their thumb and put it between their first two fingers. It almost looks like a fist, but a bit of the thumb is sticking out. If you see that, she is saying "<deleted>" but not in a nice way.

[PeaceBlondie]

And frankly -- although I can only speak for the U.S. and not Australia -- the idea that it is "widespread" is up for debate. I think it rather depends on who you hang around with and where you hang out. The group I worked with and hung out with in the States...not sure I can ever remember one of them giving anyone the finger, although we certainly saw it done.

Agreed - at the risk of sounding elitist, I mainly hung out with educated people, church goers, ladies and gentlemen. Which may explain why I fit in here without speaking the language.

[bkkjames]

Different country, different views.

It's seen as a rude gesture no matter where you go.

Here is a little known fact among Western males: Thai females have a "secret" birdy. Ask them and maybe they will show you. I have been here for decades and did not even know it until this year.

In case you think I am joking, think again. They really don't flip the birdy the same way. Not that they can't, but in many cases they will do it and you will not even know it.

Basically, they take their thumb and put it between their first two fingers. It almost looks like a fist, but a bit of the thumb is sticking out. If you see that, she is saying "<deleted>" but not in a nice way.

That gal in the photo could tell me to f-off twice and I still wouldn't get angry.

[Samuian]

overreactions to "a birdy" stemming from attitude problem, overblown ego, strong identity neurosis!

In many societies males have a build in fuse.... it will trigger unimaginable reaction at the slightest miss perception about them, "their" country, anything they believe could be a direct insult towards them.... Neanderthal stuff!

[MrJohnson]

Dumb post of the week award?

[geriatrickid]

In Thailand it means that people expect more respectful behaviour. There is a total lack of respect in the West nowadays and it`s not welcome here. This is what makes Thailand such a great place to live.

Why would anyone want to make these sorts of gestures?

When Farangs move to Thailand they need to lose their Western aggression, as it`s not tolerated in Thailand.

Rudeness takes on a different form here. It occurs when people spit on the floor when you are eating, it occurs when they pick their nose in plain public view, it occurs when people rush the railcar in Bangkok to grab a seat and pretend not to see the pregnant woman that should be sitting down It comes when someone makes a disparaging remark on the assumption that the other will not understand and it comes when people do not hold a door for someone. Yes westerners can be arrogant in Thailand. However, Thais are equally obnoxious when they emigrate elsewhere. The Thai communities in the USA are quite good at filing discrimination suits and claiming monies for things that they would accept back in Thailand without batting an eye.

Just as one shouldn't rush to assumptions about Thais, one should not make assumptions about a "lack of respect" in the west. Sorry, but I find that a great many young people in the west are considerate and thoughtful. For every bad kid people complain about, there are a many others that are downright decent and polite. If there is a lack of respect in the west, it just might be due to the fact that older generation that used to command respect have been exposed as hypocrites, frauds and liars. I know it must come as a shock, but a great many of those people from the 60's & 70's that are vilified in TV have done a very good job at raising their children. Yes some English and Australian kids run wild, but they are the same type that ran wild 100 years ago. In the meantime they are outnumbered by the thousands that are good people.

If you don't see rudeness here, it is because you don't want to see it.

[nasajsc]

Research has revealed that the 'middle finger' was associated with archers.

The middle finger was raised as a threat, symbolizing a 'trigger finger' and you were

targeted to be shot.

In retribution, the middle finger was also cut from archers' hands so that the bow

could no longer be fired by them. Thus starting 'the finger' as we know it.

So its actually a good gesture - someone was warning you that an archer somewhere

had targeted you.

Edited February 5, 2010 by nasajsc