Doubts On The Direction Of The Red-Shirts Movement

[Siripon]

First, no offense to too much coffee, btw. I was just asking . . .

Also, Thanks for the last few enlightening posts. Some of the events reported above are not exactly as I recall them, but anyway, one point remains:

Who - if anyone - elected this present government?

Sure the water is muddy, which is just how some like it here (which is the basis of this present campaign that started the thread)

The currently elected MPs in Parliament.

[hammered]

Seems every thread gets back to the same old debates. Doesnt anyone want to discuss the issue especially now Thaksin has made his thoughts clear on it?

[zaq1]

. . . I missed that last sentence out . . .

Is this present government democratically elected?

I think the answer is NO . . . so for all the rights and wrongs and dealing/wheeling,

The people must be given a chance to decide, and with this government they were NOT given that chance.

[Insight]

The Domestic Elitist Media however will paint a different picture of this movement. They will actively seek out these non-monolithic elements and wishfully report that it is a sign of discord. They didn't mention the 100,000 plus rally in Khon Kean last week (overflowing 47 Rai - the happy face for someone special), they try to link all protests to the Thaksin money thing to discredit them, they hope that the steady drumbeat of anti-Thaksin stuff of the past three years has had an effect, so they portray this movement as a singular Thaksin-movement, etc., etc.........and look for discord wherever they can find it.

100,000 people you say? Overflowing 47 rai? My word, that is a lot of people.

There's just one tiny item required to verify this event; proof. If other red shirt demonstrations that have achieved anything above 5,000 people are anything to go by, there's usually pictures flying around the Internets a few days later with the words "NICK NOSTITZ" engraved all over them. I do hope he managed to attend this massive gathering.

If not, surely somebody had the hindsight to whip out the old camera phone?

Suppose at the very least we can expect to see pictures of the event in any of the numerous pro-red rags available for sale around Bangkok. Please post some on here if you come across them first.

Sleep tight.

[zaq1]

Hammered, debate away, but one simple fact remains. And a post just above this one confirms what I also recall, namely it was elected MP's

WHO WENT AGAINST THEIR OWN ELECTORATE

ie, crossed the floor of the house - and gave support to this present government.

Against the will of the majority of the people!!

[hammered]

Hammered, debate away, but one simple fact remains. And a post just above this one confirms what I also recall, namely it was elected MP's

WHO WENT AGAINST THEIR OWN ELECTORATE

ie, crossed the floor of the house - and gave support to this present government.

Against the will of the majority of the people!!

I just thought that people may want to comment on the topic rather than much repeated off topic stuff, which seems to take over every thread, especially since Thaksin has now commneted on what this thread was started about which some may be aware of. I have no wish to enter debates about Thai poltics 101.

[Siripon]

Hammered, debate away, but one simple fact remains. And a post just above this one confirms what I also recall, namely it was elected MP's

WHO WENT AGAINST THEIR OWN ELECTORATE

ie, crossed the floor of the house - and gave support to this present government.

Against the will of the majority of the people!!

Against the will of their constituents but not against the will of the majority of the people who have consistently said in polls they wish the present government to continue and Thaksin to give up his fight.

The last 2 by elections weren't good for Pheua Thai either, lost one by a landslide and just scraped home in the other, in what was supposedly a safe seat.

[PoorSucker]

Hammered, debate away, but one simple fact remains. And a post just above this one confirms what I also recall, namely it was elected MP's

WHO WENT AGAINST THEIR OWN ELECTORATE

ie, crossed the floor of the house - and gave support to this present government.

Against the will of the majority of the people!!

You want to change the electoral system?

Something like a presidential election.

Well, that have been Thaksin's will for a long time.

[zaq1]

I've got to go now, but to you all I have enjoyed the debate. Thanks to many of you my mind is much clearer than before.

As Siriporn kindly replied above, It was the MP's then in the house that voted in the present government.

I recall that many were offered - and accepted - substantial amounts of money for changing their allegiance from one side to the other, thus allowing the present government to get in.

Those MP's shamelessly turned their backs and voted against the wishes of the very people who elected them!

When many of the turncoat MP's returned to their constituencies they found their houses barricaded and a (rightfully??) hostile crowd awaiting them.

No surprises in the land of smiles, it was-is and always will be about money.

But that crowd ain't going away. This government knows it - and are trying to swing the middle of the roaders with the propaganda that started the thread.

Wow, only in Thailand!

(But I'm NOT saying or trying to insinuate that western govs are any better, far, far from it!)

[zaq1]

Siriporn "Against the will of their constituents but not against the will of the majority of the people who have consistently said in polls they wish the present government to continue and Thaksin to give up his fight"

I don't get that. I just don't get it.

Constituents . . . majority . . . will of the people . . .

I think most of us understand the parliamentary system in Thailand, based on the British system it will be clear to most of us.

The best you might start up about (the lib-dems in the UK often bring this one up) is proportional representation.

However, if or until the whole system is changed then we/THEY are stuck with the system we/THEY have. Which THEY have monumentally abused!

Now, as a guest here in Thailand this is not my fight - but I DO understand FOR BETTER OR WORSE what the Reds are fighting for.

And I have to agree with them. Nothing personal, it's just the way it is.

[junglist]

Woo looks like the Reds are falling apart from the inside. This looks like it going to be humorous.

[hammered]

Jatuporn is claiming they will turn out over a million people at some as of yet undecided date. He also has again been critical of Sae Daeng.

[h90]

Stooping to the level of personal insult in a debate huh? Illuminating.

1. Thaksin was elected. Twice. Then he dissolved parliament and won no further elections. Since then, there has been one military appointed government. This was followed by a general election, and then two parliamentary elections leading to 3 elected PMs

You're not quote right there- Thaksin dissolved parliament and called for a snap election, which was approved of by the King. He then went on to win the snap election, but the victory was later nullified by the Constitutional Court, who upheld the PAD's disagreement with polling booth positioning. Yet another vote was to be held in October 2006, but the army got in first.

On this snap election: he did not win it, he couldn't legally form a parliament. Read the old informations.

On this election only TRT alone could be elected. The tricked the date that way that the other parties could not prepare for it and therefore boycotted it.

Than in many areas he did not get the 20 % votes. He started with fake parties.

He bribed the EC so they endorse it with less MPs than necessary in the constitution to form a dictatorship 1 party parliament.

Even Honecker in East Germany won the elections more democratic.

[h90]

Jatuporn is claiming they will turn out over a million people at some as of yet undecided date. He also has again been critical of Sae Daeng.

We recall the last 1.000.000 people claims....

At the end it was less than 10 %

[animatic]

Stooping to the level of personal insult in a debate huh? Illuminating.

1. Thaksin was elected. Twice. Then he dissolved parliament and won no further elections. Since then, there has been one military appointed government. This was followed by a general election, and then two parliamentary elections leading to 3 elected PMs

You're not quote right there- Thaksin dissolved parliament and called for a snap election, which was approved of by the King. He then went on to win the snap election, but the victory was later nullified by the Constitutional Court, who upheld the PAD's disagreement with polling booth positioning. Yet another vote was to be held in October 2006, but the army got in first.

Yes. I don't count a nullified election as valid and so didn't include it.

And because as care taker PM he was supposed to see a properly run election

happen within a specific period of time and he didn't, by the time of the coup

he was past his legal mandate as a caretaker PM let alone as a regular PM.

It was a wholly extra-constitutional position he held at that time.

You also leave out WHY the court agreed to throw out the snap election.

Because people were video taping and using hand held cameras to verify

that bought votes stayed bought. And the positions of the voting booths aided that illegal practice.

Let us not forget also because of the lack of Major opposition party,

the TRT had to win any UNCONTESTED SEAT by 20% or more.

In spite of their instance that they hold a majority of voters,

TRT still paid for minor parties to field candidates to run against them,

thus invalidating that 20% clause.

TRT LEADERSHIP got caught red handed and red faced,

attempted to turn it around on the Dems unsuccessfully,

and were banned for 5 years.

Certainly TRTs version of fair play and democratic principles...

Now the PTP, Red Shirts and PATSies; all descendant disciples of these glorious TRT principles,

want a new election since they can't get back to the trough any other way.

Edited February 9, 2010 by animatic

[ballpoint]

Hammered, debate away, but one simple fact remains. And a post just above this one confirms what I also recall, namely it was elected MP's

WHO WENT AGAINST THEIR OWN ELECTORATE

ie, crossed the floor of the house - and gave support to this present government.

Against the will of the majority of the people!!

I've asked this question before, and I'll ask it again: If the vast majority of the people wanted Thaksin's man to be PM then why didn't they vote for the PPP in the last election? Why did so many vote for smaller parties? (The standard answer is they voted for the smaller parties knowing that they would support the PPP, but why do it that way? Why not make your vote count and vote for the PPP? Surely that would be far less confusing, and the more seats they won, the bigger their proportional vote would have been and the more list MP's they would have had). And as for the crossing the floor business, the CTP was one of the TRT's biggest coalition partners, yet it split from them and joined in the boycot of the 2006 elections. Why would people see a vote for them in 2007 being an automatic vote for Thaksin? Following the election, Banharn backtracked on earlier promises and joined up with the PPP to form a government. Indeed, he was touted as a possible PM following Samak's downfall. Surely the people who voted CTP rather than PPP should have had every right to be aggrieved when they formed a coalition? Surely, the current situation, with the "CTP" not on the side of the PTP, is what those who voted for them actually wanted?

To summarise:

The last elections were held in 2007.

No party got an absolute majority, the PPP and the Democrats were pretty much level pegging, with the CTP a distant third with 37 of 480 seats.

The PPP formed a coalition with the CTP and four smaller parties, despite the actions and words of the CTP leader prior to the election indicating that he wouldn't join them.

On December 2nd 2008, the PPP, CTP and Matchima parties were dissolved by the election comission. Party executives were banned from politics for 5 years, non executive MP's were given 60 days to join a new party.

These MP's chose mainly to align themselves with new parties, rather than join the renamed PTP, thus removing themselves from Thaksin and being truer to the expectations of many of those who voted for them.

The coalition MP's voted for Abhisit as PM.

The next election is due in 2011.

[h90]

I've got to go now, but to you all I have enjoyed the debate. Thanks to many of you my mind is much clearer than before.

As Siriporn kindly replied above, It was the MP's then in the house that voted in the present government.

I recall that many were offered - and accepted - substantial amounts of money for changing their allegiance from one side to the other, thus allowing the present government to get in.

Those MP's shamelessly turned their backs and voted against the wishes of the very people who elected them!

When many of the turncoat MP's returned to their constituencies they found their houses barricaded and a (rightfully??) hostile crowd awaiting them.

No surprises in the land of smiles, it was-is and always will be about money.

But that crowd ain't going away. This government knows it - and are trying to swing the middle of the roaders with the propaganda that started the thread.

Wow, only in Thailand!

(But I'm NOT saying or trying to insinuate that western govs are any better, far, far from it!)

You over simplify it:

First of all again massive vote buying.

The Newin Group was bought from Thaksin

The coalition partner told before the election that the would never ever in their life make a coalition with PPP

Than the money came and they make a coalition with PPP.

Than they switched sides. The coalition partner anyhow to wait they have promised before the election

The Newin group against what the promised before.

My guess is that the switches were not without payment

Than they put themself together in an hotel because Thaksin/his wife called every single MP and offered 50 million (which would let the others stay without payment).

So that it is all complete rotten.

[dustybooky]

I get to see quite of few red shirts.

Some of them, I got say, look a lot like good ole boys, crackers, thugs and just plain good ole fashioned fascists.

They have that arrogant kinda swagger that a lot of other right-wingers have

A good example of what I mean is Donald Sutherland's role of Attila in 1900?

A lot of these guys are not particularly tolerant of "others", extremely nationalistic to a point that goes beyond xenophobia.

They'd probably be offended if you compared them with their farang counterparts.

But that would not be because of their political orientation, demeanor but rather because you compare them to farangs at all.

I remember reading a Bangkok Post article in which the Thai reporter was recounting Thaksin's answer to one of his questions:

(I'm paraphrasing here):

Reporter: Please tell us what "human rights" mean to you sir?

Thaksin: It means everyone has the right to be human.

His cronies all found that one hilarious.

That's the kind of sarcasm, arrogance and machismo I think any right-wing fascist can really identify with.

When I see that it gives me the creeps.

[TAWP]

. . . I missed

A whole lot it seems.

Hopefully mods will not miss your trolling attempt thou'.

[scorecard]

This article is all About the "Red Shirt Movement"........"Who is dat",

<snip>

Everything else in this article trying to dramatize a non-existent rift within the Red Shirt Democracy Movement is just wishful thinking.

Sorry my friend Ballpoint.....was this the "diversionary" Post you were referring to?

The one you reference was just having some fun..........silly 'divering' me.....

That one will do for me. If this rift is "non-existent", why is your leader pleading for unity right now according to a breaking news update in the Bangkok Post?

You guys should really try reading from the same page at some point.

Hopefully this time you'll have the courtesy to respond.

/edit - corrected quoted post.

Awright my friend Insight, I'm a courteous guy and will respond as "you directed".

I scurried off to read the newspaper article you reference, which is painful for me considering the Domestic Media agenda. But you referenced it, and I stooped to read it.

Checked with other meaningful sources and come up with the following:

Jatuporn and his colleagues are simply accentuating the non-violence style of the Red Shirt Democracy Movement. They come with empty hands.

It is the Media's role to be ....-disturbers with respect to this movement and they will do so at every opportunity. The Red Shirts expect it.

What Seh Daeng and Panlop do is their thing. If it involves violence, it is not part of the Red Shirt Democracy Movement way.

This Democracy Movement is not a tight, monolithically structured and disciplined Movement. They are idea and philosophy directed. They are focussed on returning Thailand to its Democratic ways and giving all citizens electoral participation on an equal footing with all other elitist and aristocratic elements.

As has been mentioned frequently in other posts by knowledgable people about this movement, there is no unanimity even on Thaksin. At the local level, there are typically 2-3 separate groups of Red Shirts. But the centrality of their motives is not in question, and they will gather as required.

The Domestic Elitist Media however will paint a different picture of this movement. They will actively seek out these non-monolithic elements and wishfully report that it is a sign of discord. They didn't mention the 100,000 plus rally in Khon Kean last week (overflowing 47 Rai - the happy face for someone special), they try to link all protests to the Thaksin money thing to discredit them, they hope that the steady drumbeat of anti-Thaksin stuff of the past three years has had an effect, so they portray this movement as a singular Thaksin-movement, etc., etc.........and look for discord wherever they can find it.

Just relax Insight...everything is well with the Democracy Movement, and suppressing it is not in the cards. Suthep and his friends can insinuate all sorts of dire violent stuff and trumpet all their preparedness for it, but that is just political posturing by fearful politicians.

I am sure you are most supportive of this movement Insight, and will see through all the smoke as I do.

Awright, nap time. I'm on stage in a couple hours.

Thanks for that, best laugh I've had this year.

The highlight for me is your term 'democracy movement', love it, better than a good tickle.

Oh, what stage, comedy central?

[Steve2UK]

The Domestic Elitist Media however will paint a different picture of this movement. They will actively seek out these non-monolithic elements and wishfully report that it is a sign of discord. They didn't mention the 100,000 plus rally in Khon Kean last week (overflowing 47 Rai - the happy face for someone special), they try to link all protests to the Thaksin money thing to discredit them, they hope that the steady drumbeat of anti-Thaksin stuff of the past three years has had an effect, so they portray this movement as a singular Thaksin-movement, etc., etc.........and look for discord wherever they can find it.

100,000 people you say? Overflowing 47 rai? My word, that is a lot of people.

There's just one tiny item required to verify this event; proof. If other red shirt demonstrations that have achieved anything above 5,000 people are anything to go by, there's usually pictures flying around the Internets a few days later with the words "NICK NOSTITZ" engraved all over them. I do hope he managed to attend this massive gathering.

If not, surely somebody had the hindsight to whip out the old camera phone?

Suppose at the very least we can expect to see pictures of the event in any of the numerous pro-red rags available for sale around Bangkok. Please post some on here if you come across them first.

Sleep tight.

Well, I happened to notice what appears to be some corroboration at least..... and neither of them "pro-red rags" AFAIK. I'll let you know if I spot any pics.

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9909&sec=1

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50248

Some commentary about the second report, funding etc at

http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...rt-land-part-ii

[cdnvic]

Personal attack/reply deleted. Chill please.

[hammered]

The Domestic Elitist Media however will paint a different picture of this movement. They will actively seek out these non-monolithic elements and wishfully report that it is a sign of discord. They didn't mention the 100,000 plus rally in Khon Kean last week (overflowing 47 Rai - the happy face for someone special), they try to link all protests to the Thaksin money thing to discredit them, they hope that the steady drumbeat of anti-Thaksin stuff of the past three years has had an effect, so they portray this movement as a singular Thaksin-movement, etc., etc.........and look for discord wherever they can find it.

100,000 people you say? Overflowing 47 rai? My word, that is a lot of people.

There's just one tiny item required to verify this event; proof. If other red shirt demonstrations that have achieved anything above 5,000 people are anything to go by, there's usually pictures flying around the Internets a few days later with the words "NICK NOSTITZ" engraved all over them. I do hope he managed to attend this massive gathering.

If not, surely somebody had the hindsight to whip out the old camera phone?

Suppose at the very least we can expect to see pictures of the event in any of the numerous pro-red rags available for sale around Bangkok. Please post some on here if you come across them first.

Sleep tight.

Well, I happened to notice what appears to be some corroboration at least..... and neither of them "pro-red rags" AFAIK. I'll let you know if I spot any pics.

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9909&sec=1

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50248

Some commentary about the second report, funding etc at

http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...rt-land-part-ii

The Khon Kaen one was reported on TV. Wsant really watching but Im sure someone who paid attention could give details. The main point was the call to take to take 1 litre bottles of petrol to Bangkok from what I heard

[Ricardo]

The main point was the call to take to take 1 litre bottles of petrol to Bangkok from what I heard

Perhaps they're concerned about getting home afterwards, running out of fuel for the buses, in case they don't receive their 'attendance-allowances' ?

[Steve2UK]

<snip>

100,000 people you say? Overflowing 47 rai? My word, that is a lot of people.

There's just one tiny item required to verify this event; proof. If other red shirt demonstrations that have achieved anything above 5,000 people are anything to go by, there's usually pictures flying around the Internets a few days later with the words "NICK NOSTITZ" engraved all over them. I do hope he managed to attend this massive gathering.

If not, surely somebody had the hindsight to whip out the old camera phone?

Suppose at the very least we can expect to see pictures of the event in any of the numerous pro-red rags available for sale around Bangkok. Please post some on here if you come across them first.

Sleep tight.

Well, I happened to notice what appears to be some corroboration at least..... and neither of them "pro-red rags" AFAIK. I'll let you know if I spot any pics.

http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=9909&sec=1

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50248

Some commentary about the second report, funding etc at

http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...rt-land-part-ii

Well, it seems from his comment now posted at http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...art-ii#comments that the redoubtable Nick Nostitz was not present at Khon Kaen - so no pics "with the words 'NICK NOSTITZ' engraved all over them"...... Will video footage do for you? Follow the preceding link to the comments on the Bangkok Pundit post and you will find links to numerous video clips of the event - and also some input from someone who is strangely familiar......

[Insight]

Well, it seems from his comment now posted at http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...art-ii#comments that the redoubtable Nick Nostitz was not present at Khon Kaen - so no pics "with the words 'NICK NOSTITZ' engraved all over them"...... Will video footage do for you? Follow the preceding link to the comments on the Bangkok Pundit post and you will find links to numerous video clips of the event - and also some input from someone who is strangely familiar......

Thanks for the link. As StanG said in the comment, difficult to estimate what the figures where. For sure, it's a sizeable number, but 100,000, or even 50,000? More like 10-20k at most.

3 weeks to go.

[Steve2UK]

Well, it seems from his comment now posted at http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...art-ii#comments that the redoubtable Nick Nostitz was not present at Khon Kaen - so no pics "with the words 'NICK NOSTITZ' engraved all over them"...... Will video footage do for you? Follow the preceding link to the comments on the Bangkok Pundit post and you will find links to numerous video clips of the event - and also some input from someone who is strangely familiar......

Thanks for the link. As StanG said in the comment, difficult to estimate what the figures where. For sure, it's a sizeable number, but 100,000, or even 50,000? More like 10-20k at most.

3 weeks to go.

So, no credence for the reports cited earlier....... Up to you.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Steve2UK

[Insight]

Well, it seems from his comment now posted at http://asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pund...art-ii#comments that the redoubtable Nick Nostitz was not present at Khon Kaen - so no pics "with the words 'NICK NOSTITZ' engraved all over them"...... Will video footage do for you? Follow the preceding link to the comments on the Bangkok Pundit post and you will find links to numerous video clips of the event - and also some input from someone who is strangely familiar......

Thanks for the link. As StanG said in the comment, difficult to estimate what the figures where. For sure, it's a sizeable number, but 100,000, or even 50,000? More like 10-20k at most.

3 weeks to go.

So, no credence for the reports cited earlier....... Up to you.

Already commented on them elsewhere on the forum, but will repeat them here: Gonzo at best.

[Steve2UK]

<snip>

Already commented on them elsewhere on the forum, but will repeat them here: Gonzo at best.

[Insight]

<snip>

Already commented on them elsewhere on the forum, but will repeat them here: Gonzo at best.

Questionable statistics have been presented as fact without being attributed to any source. Gatherings of such proclaimed magnitude surely warrants some independent verification, rather than depending on propaganda-style reporting from the media arm of the movement, no?