Sakdina - The Curse Of Modern Thailand

[jdinasia]

Jopha ---

While the Sakdina caste system was not exactly the same as India's caste system was they are in many ways more similar than anything from feudalism in the West.

India's system with jobs and relative value of people in the society based upon those jobs is closer in many ways than any other similiar caste system. Similarities could also be drawn between pre 1650 Japan and the Sakdina system. The issue with using any type of analogy between systems is that the goals of those systems are often not the same. It really does boil down to apples and oranges. They are certainly both fruit and may be discussed in terms that work, but they are in essence vastly different.

[samran]

The guy driving a Mercedes, demanding his position on the road, due to his perceived elevated social statues - Sakdina

I put it down to the moronic habits of the driver behind the wheel.

Your theory also does not explain the moron pick up truck driver, moron taxi driver and moron bus driver. Either they are driving as they have perceived elevated social status us well, or they are simply stupid..... I think the latter..

There isn't a consipracy around every corner you know OP.

[citizen33]

I’m no expert in this field but if we want to understanding the contemporary meaning of sakdhina, don’t we have to look at the reinvention of older Thai institutions (some code here) in the post-war period. One interpretation that I’ve seen is that intellectuals such as M.R. Kukrit tried to enhance the legitimacy of the traditional social hierarchy by arguing that it was based not on a simple feudal-style land allocation but on ‘na haeng sakdhi’. This refers to prestige, expressed in terms of notional land entitlement but with equivalent rungs for persons who might not actually hold land. Kukrit argues that, in contrast to what happened with western feudalism, the Thai aristocracy left most land in the hands of peasants rather than appropriating it as their own. I’m still trying to get my head around this concept, but the more metaphorical interpretation of sakdhina as a status order, determined by relationship to the one empowered to allocate rank, might very well still apply in the modern era. I’m doubtful about the idea that the traditional order has been superseded by economic standing expressed purely in terms of holdings of capital. Some might say that the present battle lines reflect a cleavage in Thai society between the old and the new. So perhaps M.R. Kukrit Pramoj's Farang Sakdhina (Western Feudalism) could be added to the reading list.

Edited February 15, 2010 by citizen33

[Rimmer]

Post deleted please see Forum Rules about flaming

[Groongthep]

I’m no expert in this field but if we want to understanding the contemporary meaning of sakdhina, don’t we have to look at the reinvention of older Thai institutions (some code here) in the post-war period. One interpretation that I’ve seen is that intellectuals such as M.R. Kukrit tried to enhance the legitimacy of the traditional social hierarchy by arguing that it was based not on a simple feudal-style land allocation but on ‘na haeng sakdhi’. This refers to prestige, expressed in terms of notional land entitlement but with equivalent rungs for persons who might not actually hold land. Kukrit argues that, in contrast to what happened with western feudalism, the Thai aristocracy left most land in the hands of peasants rather than appropriating it as their own. I’m still trying to get my head around this concept, but the more metaphorical interpretation of sakdhina as a status order, determined by relationship to the one empowered to allocate rank, might very well still apply in the modern era. I’m doubtful about the idea that the traditional order has been superseded by economic standing expressed purely in terms of holdings of capital. Some might say that the present battle lines reflect a cleavage in Thai society between the old and the new. So perhaps M.R. Kukrit Pramoj's Farang Sakdhina (Western Feudalism) could be added to the reading list.

This is a very good post with a very valid argument that one's "relationship to the one empowered to allocate rank" is indeed a very important factor in determining one's status in today's Thai society. As a fairly high member of royalty himself, M.R. Kukrit Pramoj was, of course, a staunch defender of the royal family and their privileges and although Kukrit is now dead there are still many today who share his beliefs.

I also agree with citizen33's doubts that the traditional order has been totally superseded by standing expressed purely in terms of economics, but it seems obvious that money and other capital certainly play an extremely important part in determining one's status today. If you are rich that alone will buy you some status, if you are related to royalty that will probably gain you even more status, and if you are of royal blood and rich (which is very common) you have it made. I don't believe any of this is a direct result of the old sakdina system which died out years ago but it seems very logical that vestiges of that system still strongly influence how one ranks in today's hierarchy. My personal opinion is that in today's Thailand status is determined by many factors some being more important than others but all contributing to how one is treated and perceived. The traditional bureaucracy and the military, like royalty have always enjoyed a position of high status but some of the most highly regarded monks are of peasant backgrounds. There was also a time when just being a farang gave one some status but that seems to have been seriously eroded by the bad behavior of many foreigners and by our villainization in the media.

One would have to be rather closed minded not to acknowledge that it also appears suspiciously obvious that many members of the PAD are members of the traditional elite who have found themselves in high status positions by virtue of birth alone and are fighting against losing any of their traditional perks to a distinctly foreign and non-Thai concept such as democracy. I'm not going to comment on whether this is good or bad as there are already hundreds of pages on this forum regarding that topic already.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Groongthep

[ProfessorFart]

Posts: 10,387

Joined: 2003-09-11

From: CNX- inside the moat

Member No.: 4,271

Jopha ---

While the Sakdina caste system was not exactly the same as India's caste system was they are in many ways more similar than anything from feudalism in the West.

India's system with jobs and relative value of people in the society based upon those jobs is closer in many ways than any other similiar caste system. Similarities could also be drawn between pre 1650 Japan and the Sakdina system. The issue with using any type of analogy between systems is that the goals of those systems are often not the same. It really does boil down to apples and oranges. They are certainly both fruit and may be discussed in terms that work, but they are in essence vastly different.

JD, how else would you describe a 'caste' system?

It's a bastardisation of the Portuguese word used for 'class' or 'race' the early explorers to India, befuddled by the fact that one person could cut their hair but another had to cook their food or clean their room. They were a tad confused.

Does that sound like sakdina? Remotely?

You are qualified in Asian Studies....I fear not.

Johpa has really offered the best explaination to date bar my own but as I am better qualified than he (he may PM me for my credentials or indeed other members of the forum for back up) I will do so for all in simple 'pub' terms' so I can listen to you all yak about it tomoz when I go to the Crossbar to see if I can nab her with the big tits!!

1) Sakdina in easy terms is a 'system' of gentrification.

2) If you have the cash you are in.

3) That's it.

It's an old concept which has been replaced by the word 'class' or 'elite'

Its that easy although those 'academics' for whom such a simple explanation would be on the dole prefer to disagree (but JDinAsia isn't one of them)

[ProfessorFart]

Blimey! I can't believe so many people actually had to wank over the 'na' concept which has all been copied......