World War Ii Bridges

[iainiain101]

I was in Soppong (Pang Mapha) for a couple of days, and had heard that there were alledgedly a couple of small World War II bridges there. I decided to try and find them, and found these two. They seem remarkably narrow but do seem to date back a long way as they predate the Lisu village that has been there for at least 40 years.

The village must be a good 1000m above sea level if not more, the bridges are about 1 km apart and cross a river bed in this valley.

I guess there must be many of these between Chiang Mai and Burma?

Does anyone know if they are really WWII bridges, and any history? I have not been too succesfull trying to search on the internet.

Thanks

Iain

[islandee]

This is great: a report from the field.

During WW2, there were border penetrations throughout the length of the northern Thai-Burmese border, not so much by the Japanese Army as by the Royal Thai Army. Following the war and to the present, drug and people smuggling has kept many of those penetrations open, as well as adding more.

Offhand, your CIMG6111 appears to show a deck of finished wood. Survival of such from the WW2 era is improbable; but then the bridge at that location might have been maintained after a fashion up to the present. Also that picture seems to show longitudinal steel beams (?) supporting the deck --- very hard to tell. And if true, very unusual. Most of the remains of 'backwoods' bridges in the Khun Yuam area from that era are 100% hewn timbers (decks and floor beams), usually with laid up stone abutments.

While the photos are useful, a description of the bridges would be most helpful:

. Overall lengths

. Span lengths if more than one

. Bearings (directions)

. Widths

. Materials used for decks, floorbeams, underpinning, handrails, handrail supports, etc.

There are some maps of this area available; hence approximate locations are really necessary to go much further. Needed are:

. GPS coordinates ideally

. Verbal descriptions as well, with distances from villages, name(s) of the stream(s) crossed, etc.

Tell us more.

Edited February 12, 2010 by islandee

[Thaihog]

Ian, I don't know if you have ever been to Pai. About 10 klicks outside of Pai there is an iron bridge that was built by the Japanese during WW2.

[sabaijai]

The steel-truss bridge in Pai was built not by the Japanese army in WII but rather the Thai government in 1976, as noted on the plaque. When the Japanese came through Pai they used an existing Shan-built footbridge. For heavier equipment they used a river ferry.

[neilrob]

The steel-truss bridge in Pai was built not by the Japanese army in WII but rather the Thai government in 1976, as noted on the plaque. When the Japanese came through Pai they used an existing Shan-built footbridge. For heavier equipment they used a river ferry.

Yes, you're right, although the bridge itself is, I believe, early 20th century and was transferred from Chiang Mai city to the present site. This does not stop the presentation of the bridge as a WW2 memorial bridge, and lots of tourists stopping there it as though it were (only if you actually read the information plaques do you find out it is nothing to do with WW2). The give away is that it is a steel bridge. As I understand it, the Japanese were short of steel upcountry and all bridges in such remote areas built during the war would have been made of wood. Thus the bridges mentioned by the original poster, if they contain steel beams, probably were not built during WW2 (at least in their present form, although an earlier bridge on the same site may of course have been built then).

[islandee]

The steel-truss bridge in Pai was built not by the Japanese army in WII but rather the Thai government in 1976, as noted on the plaque. When the Japanese came through Pai they used an existing Shan-built footbridge. For heavier equipment they used a river ferry.

Exercise in semantics here. I believe that the plaque you mention is actually several information boards put up by the Pai local government at the southeastern approach to the bridge. If my assumption is in error, please point me to your 'plaque'. Much of the information presented on those boards is grossly in error. First and foremost amongst those errors is the claim that spans from the old Nawarat steel truss bridge were relocated to the Pai River crossing. That is discussed in detail at another site (I seem to be forbidden from including the URL here). I do agree that the Thai government erected the bridge, but not as presented on those boards.

I also agree with you that the Japanese Army used an existing footbridge and a ferry of sorts for moving heavy equipment across the river during high water; I got that from talking with the senior monk at Wat Klang in Pai, but that doesn't match the story on the information boards. I'm curious as to your source?

[iainiain101]

This is great: a report from the field.

During WW2, there were border penetrations throughout the length of the northern Thai-Burmese border, not so much by the Japanese Army as by the Royal Thai Army. Following the war and to the present, drug and people smuggling has kept many of those penetrations open, as well as adding more.

Offhand, your CIMG6111 appears to show a deck of finished wood. Survival of such from the WW2 era is improbable; but then the bridge at that location might have been maintained after a fashion up to the present. Also that picture seems to show longitudinal steel beams (?) supporting the deck --- very hard to tell. And if true, very unusual. Most of the remains of 'backwoods' bridges in the Khun Yuam area from that era are 100% hewn timbers (decks and floor beams), usually with laid up stone abutments.

While the photos are useful, a description of the bridges would be most helpful:

. Overall lengths

. Span lengths if more than one

. Bearings (directions)

. Widths

. Materials used for decks, floorbeams, underpinning, handrails, handrail supports, etc.

There are some maps of this area available; hence approximate locations are really necessary to go much further. Needed are:

. GPS coordinates ideally

. Verbal descriptions as well, with distances from villages, name(s) of the stream(s) crossed, etc.

Tell us more.

Ok, here goes.

Using Google Earth I would place the two bridges at 19 degrees 29'15.12" N, 98 degrees 15'37.01" E & 19 degrees 28' 56.50" N, 98 degrees 15' 39.46" E This should get you within 100 metres of each.

Directions. as you approach Soppong from the direction of Pai, you will see I sign for a right turn to the caves at Lod and the Northern Hillside guesthouse on your left. Take the first road on the left, about 50 metres after the guest house up the hill. It is not sign posted, but concrete construction. Stay on this road until you reach the second village (a few kilometers). There is a left turning in the second village that is concrete leading up a small incline. Take this turning and follow the road (it turns to a dirt road after about 50 metres) past a small village school on the right until you see a church on the left. (perhaps 500 metres from the turning) The first bridge is behind the houses on your right. Probably best to ask a local to show you. (maybe take a photo to show them) The second brige is a further walk up the valley through some potato fields, so may be best to ask to be shown it. The villages are both Lisu if this helps.

The construction including the surfaces seemed to be all steel, no wood, with concrete abutments.

The walkways are about a metre wide, with both bridges being around 5 m in length. I had been expecting them to be wider, but the explanation that the Japanese used footbridges seems to fit with these.

Hope this helps

Iain

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

steel was in such short supply I really doubt they would build bridges with it. The Japanese were using Teak and Iron wood for ship decking and my grandfather was shot 5 times with teak wood machine gun bullets in the Marshall Islands.

[islandee]

Okay, Iain: good details. Unfortunately, CobraSnakeNecktie's comment is right. Japan was short of resources when the war began --- that was the primary reason for its expansionism. And the situation only got worse for the Japanese as the war went on. Steel and cement would never have found their way to the Lisu bridges; just as they never found their way to the bridge at Pai. Wood and rocks were the stuff that Japanese military engineers used for bridges in the north as can be seen in the backwoods west of Khun Yuam.

So the Japanese didn't erect the steel-concrete footbridges. Could they (or the Thai Army) have installed bridges of stone and wood at those locations --- and after the war the Thai government or smugglers or whoever improved them so that what we see today are simply improved structures?

The question then is really to what would the bridges have provided access. With Google Earth, you can go to an oblique view of the area and see the valley there more clearly. The road hugs the western slope of the valley in the area of the bridges. There seems to be no reason for the northerly bridge other than to access a collection of small buildings on the east bank (RTSD 4647 I names the village just to the north as Ban Nong Pha Cham (บ้านหนองผาจ้ำ) and the stream, Huai Nam Rang (ห้วยน้ำราง) --- do those names bear any similarity with what you found on the ground?). Do you know if any of the buildings were there during the war? The reason for the southerly bridge is obscure, at least from what Google shows.

The next level of questioning would target the purpose of the valley road itself. An oblique view looking south up the valley reveals the valley deadending as a watershed about 8 km south, with a dividing ridgeline about 350 m higher than Sop Pong. Google seems to show the road dwindling away and disappearing towards the ridgeline. RTSD 4647 I shows no road at all until 3 km south of the bridges, coming in from 1095 and heading west to disappear on the next map (continuity between RTSD maps is not great). The watershed adjacent to the south flows into the Huai Mae Yan (per RTSD 4647 IV), about 5 km southeast and 400 m lower in elevation; it in turn is a tributary to the Pai, about 6 km further southwest, and 250 m lower. Point is that there doesn't seem to be much of interest to the south of the bridges.

I double checked Point Asia. Unusually, Point Asia's coverage is not as good as Google --- usually Point Asia is better for rural areas; in any case, there is no additional information to be seen. Google's high res would imply that Google has recorded enough hits there to upgrade the quality of coverage (that's the large pale area: the washed out color is misleading. Imagery date is 15 Mar 2008: perhaps the Burmese were burning their fields that day.). Offhand I can't see what would have attracted enough attention in the near present to that area to have motivated Google to improve its coverage.

The border is 20 km north of the bridges, which makes them seem too remote from the border to have been relevant for the Thai Army accessing crossing points.

I've got a copy of a Japanese Army map of the area, but it shows nothing at those locations. To be fair, though, the map is nothing more than a tracing of the applicable Thai government map from around 1920 with place names transliterated into Japanese. The map obviously wouldn't show the bridges, but the map also implies there was nothing of interest to the Japanese in that area. While RTSD current map scales are none too great at 1:50,000, the Japanese maps (and presumably the Thai government maps of the 1920s) were only 1:200,000.

The Royal Thai Army WW2 history shows no relevant detail on maps which include the Lisu bridges area. It does have a map of border crossing points, and no crossings appear in the area generally north of the bridges. I believe that the routes the Thais used both in invading and in leaving Burma were generally from Chiang Dao through Huai Sun (aka Nong Ku), Ban Tha Ton, and Mai Sai, all of which were much farther east. Someone who can read Thai perhaps can explain the other border points, though they would have no bearing on the Lisu bridges.

I don't have much feel for drug-producing areas and smuggling routes within Thailand. External to Thailand, the main access from Burma into Thailand seemed to have been from Monghsat which would have relied on penetrations from Mae Sai through Mae Salong to Huai Sun (Nong Ku). But that whole line is far east of the border north of Sappong.

So the conclusion is that the two bridges had nothing to do with the Second War or smuggling, nor did the valley road. But the problem remains: who built such permanent bridges and why? Real curiosities. You wrote that the Lisu village has been there at least 40 years, which would take it back to 1970 or before. If you travel in that area again, you might try to search out more old folks and see if they recall what was there, in terms of villages and bridges, when they arrived. Maybe the stories will become more detailed. Perhaps more bridges will be revealed. A problem with that approach is the probably lower life expectancy for the Lisu as well as the ravages of senility on their elderly.

[islandee]

. . . The Japanese were using Teak and Iron wood for ship decking . . .

The US Navy also ran battleships with wooden decks during WW2; even flight decks on carriers were wooden: I just ran across a photo of the wooden deck on the Enterprise which fought at Midway. Reasons mentioned on the Internet include:

1. Tradition

2. Metal shortage

3. Metal decks were very slippery (no non-skid surface treatments back then)

4. Metal decks got extremely hot in tropical climates.