Position Buying 'A Long Tradition' In Thai Police Force

[webfact]

Position buying 'a long tradition'

By The Nation

Published on February 18, 2010

BANGKOK: -- Position selling and buying has long been practised in the police force, with policemen initiating the deals with politicians in most cases, former police chief Sombat Amornwiwat alleged yesterday.

"The problem has stemmed mainly from policemen being ambitious to serve politicians for personal benefits," he said.

"When serving as an assistant chief and on parliamentary duties to defend budget plans, I left the parliaments with a pocket full of papers with names of policemen earmarked for good positions by politicians," he added.

The former police general was speaking after meeting with Deputy Prime Minister Sanan Kachornprasrt to discuss the ongoing position selling and buying allegations currently surrounding the Royal Thai Police.

Sombat said he agreed with key conditions proposed in a reform plan during the Surayudh Chulanont that policemen served or got promoted only in their regional headquarters

"This can usefully lessen the chance of corruption or buying and selling positions. But in the end some people who don't want the change managed to freeze the entire police reform process," he said, without explaining further.

Asked to comment that senior officers in the RTP now conspired with politicians in power to reciprocal benefits through position selling and buying, he said: "Such a practice is more than certain, and can never be stopped, as long as there are no preventive measures against it being put in place," he said.

-- The Nation 2010-02-18

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[sharecropper]

"Such a practice is more than certain, and can never be stopped, as long as there are no preventive measures against it being put in place," he said.

....such as a serious deterrent, like the death penalty or life imprsonment.

It is akin to treason, the subversion of the organs of state, rendering them corrupt and often ineffective.

Edited February 18, 2010 by sharecropper

[givenall]

In any society to stop corruption the police system has to be fixed. As I see it will be close to impossible to do this over here

[Thai at Heart]

In any society to stop corruption the police system has to be fixed. As I see it will be close to impossible to do this over here

There is a certain Thainess in believing that it is impossible to change the situation. Kee Kiat Tham and all that.

It is unlikely that 100% of all corruption can be avoided. There are cases every day all over the world in the cleanest of systems. However, it is not impossible to reduce it to a reasonable and continually reducing level until it becomes a rarity instead of the norm.

The selective enforcement of the law is the single biggest problem in this country, be it in high level politics or daily life riding your bike. Stamp out the police corruption and whether your measure is "Global Happiness" or "GDP" things will get measurably better in every way within the country. Next reduce the personal income and corporate tax but make everyone pay what they should and watch the government swim in money.

[Chang_paarp]

A simple merit based promotion system, with published selection criteria as used by professional police services across the globe would be a first step in reducing this. The second step, an open appeal system with an independent adjudicator would also help.

Not holding my breath waiting.

[grantbkk]

Systemic problem that can never be fixed until professional standards are in place. Corruption is from the top down and when you pay cash on the street to a police officer for a real or imagined offense a little goes up the chain of command. To reduce stress we should not worry about that which we have no control.

[hammered]

In any society to stop corruption the police system has to be fixed. As I see it will be close to impossible to do this over here

There is a certain Thainess in believing that it is impossible to change the situation. Kee Kiat Tham and all that.

It is unlikely that 100% of all corruption can be avoided. There are cases every day all over the world in the cleanest of systems. However, it is not impossible to reduce it to a reasonable and continually reducing level until it becomes a rarity instead of the norm.

The selective enforcement of the law is the single biggest problem in this country, be it in high level politics or daily life riding your bike. Stamp out the police corruption and whether your measure is "Global Happiness" or "GDP" things will get measurably better in every way within the country. Next reduce the personal income and corporate tax but make everyone pay what they should and watch the government swim in money.

Good comment

[BigC]

In any society to stop corruption the police system has to be fixed. As I see it will be close to impossible to do this over here

fighting corrupt police force. don't make me laugh. hope the man in charge of antie corruption has a strong tolerance. to helicopitor flying style objects. would love than mans job. Every life each day like it is his last. top man

[TAWP]

A long tradition always trumps logic or what is right... yes, I am looking at You, religion, nature medicine, spiritual healers and others in the same group...

[mccw]

A long tradition always trumps logic or what is right... yes, I am looking at You, religion, nature medicine, spiritual healers and others in the same group...

I just read in newsweek that the entire depression medication market is a sham. its been proven that medication "cures" 75% of those treated, however 74% taking placebos also recover! The power of belief being the key factor to getting better, so any technique could be valid if results are obtained; although i'd still rather modern medicine over healing hands incase of a heart attack!

[landofthefree]

A long tradition always trumps logic or what is right... yes, I am looking at You, religion, nature medicine, spiritual healers and others in the same group...

I just read in newsweek that the entire depression medication market is a sham. its been proven that medication "cures" 75% of those treated, however 74% taking placebos also recover! The power of belief being the key factor to getting better, so any technique could be valid if results are obtained; although i'd still rather modern medicine over healing hands incase of a heart attack!

Some countries have a long tradition of canibalism, that doesnt mean you shouldnt try to change things!

[junglist]

Thailand has never had a Police Force just thugs in brown. So Sad.

[geriatrickid]

I just read in newsweek that the entire depression medication market is a sham. its been proven that medication "cures" 75% of those treated, however 74% taking placebos also recover! The power of belief being the key factor to getting better, so any technique could be valid if results are obtained; although i'd still rather modern medicine over healing hands incase of a heart attack!

Can we send the people that stop taking their meds over to your place?

[parryhandy]

How does this actually work ? What happens if policeman x pays politician y for job and x doesnt get job and y keeps the money or policeman x is transfered soon after getting the job so politician y can rake in some more money off somebody else ?

Do they actually pay upfront or is it a pay as you go type deal ?

[Thailand]

It's not just the police force it happens in immigration, customs etc.

It has been the way the system here has worked for years. It will take many more years to make a change to anything like achieving positions because of competence or qualifications. TIT

[howto]

Yes, totally 100% true.

Last year 2009, immigration renewal...

My wife's distant cousin sat with us for 45 minutes.

I remarked on her "emblems", and asked what rank are you?

She replied "lieutenant", then went on to explain,

to go any higher I have to pay money,

and keep paying money,

and I will not do that.

She has a masters degree from Chula,

and a very sharp, intelligent woman,

(and quite beautiful, especially in that tight uniform).

So yes, that is the practice.

Deplorable.

Those that can should be raised by merit.

I fully understand why corruption here is rampant.

But understand, not all will "buy" into it.

There are some good people.

[animatic]

What they need is Serpico. Or someone like him.

And or a 'Rat Squad' with some teeth in it.

What they got is a hornest nest of Bad Lieutenants

The idea of an Internal Affairs board with investigators here seems ludicrous,

but really is is a good way to start. If they have the powers to ACT.

As long as they report directly to the NCCC and can bring a halt to the graft,

and not just a reshuffle of the players to inactive posts...

Edited February 18, 2010 by animatic

[Bagwan]

Everything in this world can be changed. Everything. It comes under the heading of evolution. If this was not true we'd still be living in caves and painting ourselves blue. Change comes around by dissatisfaction with the status quo and the search for something better. The ignorant who post remarks about 'whining' and 'go home if you don't like it' have yet to learn this. Change comes about by a few brave folks not afraid to fight City Hall with the fortitude to absorb all the catcalls and may be even violence. Not to seek change and improvement labels one as a Luddite.

More power to those seeking to make the RTP an outfit to be proud of rather than the collection of intimidating and bullying villains they are. As Internet use becomes more widespread, thus making more and more aware of other possibilities, the pressure for change will grow until it becomes irresistible.

[noahvail]

I just read in newsweek that the entire depression medication market is a sham. its been proven that medication "cures" 75% of those treated, however 74% taking placebos also recover! The power of belief being the key factor to getting better, so any technique could be valid if results are obtained; although i'd still rather modern medicine over healing hands incase of a heart attack!

Can we send the people that stop taking their meds over to your place?

(smiley for wry smile) Not that Newsweek enjoys the medical stature of the NEJM, but let's just take them at close to their word. Let's add the word "situational" to depression; we might even go so far as to add the words "mildly neurotic" to depression. For those two specific diagnoses, it has long been within the common knowledge of therapists of the value of placebae. However, for the major mental illness called depression, placebae are worse than useless, for they give the patient false hope.

There is a group of people in the US who advocate for their right to remain unmedicated for their illnesses of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. They claim it is a "life-sytle" choice. Because of the extended half-life of some medicines, they can go for several weeks to several months before their choice catches up with them; they become a danger to themselves or others, and are eventually re-institutionalized or what's worse, incarcerated.

So perhaps for mild, short-term neurotic or situational depression, a placebo might work as well 3 out of 4 times. Would you want to take a 25% chance against a "med" working for you, or would you rather pay a bit for a 10/10 chance for symptom relief. [Even with a medical dx of mild depression, not all illnesses have a 100% cure rate, be they placebae or pharmaceutically constructed.] [Further, there is always the chance that the health-care provider mis-diagnosed you, in which case all bets are off.]

I will make the connection to Thailand in that research into meds for mental illness are being developed here, and that existing meds are produced here, and these and other meds are available here legally.

[TAWP]

How does this actually work ? What happens if policeman x pays politician y for job and x doesnt get job and y keeps the money or policeman x is transfered soon after getting the job so politician y can rake in some more money off somebody else ?

Do they actually pay upfront or is it a pay as you go type deal ?

Well, the brute of the corruption regarding promotions are inside the police-force, not against some politicians that have no say.

[selftaopath]

In any society to stop corruption the police system has to be fixed. As I see it will be close to impossible to do this over here

Stop this and see more corruption stop. Funny that this ??? group is know as "Royal Thai"...... but some believe "Royal" would stand for ??? integrity/Truth/Justice/Pride etc. LOL so maybe the BIB ought to be called something different??? Humn, What's the definition of thieves?

[selftaopath]

"Such a practice is more than certain, and can never be stopped, as long as there are no preventive measures against it being put in place," he said.

....such as a serious deterrent, like the death penalty or life imprsonment.

It is akin to treason, the subversion of the organs of state, rendering them corrupt and often ineffective.

Prevention CAN be implimented and yet another deterent is "punishment" i.e. consequences when caught. Do Thai people realize the strength in consequences? I hope everyone in every country realizes how "Royal Thai Police make rank. Let it be known that intellect/grades/performance/productivity etc are NOT important, but those high ranking Police (and others) can hold their heads in SHAME because all they did was BUY a title/position/medals. LOLLLOOOLL so let's look at reality and not this untruthful idea of not wanting to appear how one might be e.g. face bs.

[slapout]

TAWP said it. The pointing finger at politicians is just the normal misdirection ploy utilized so effectively here. To excuse corruption Thailand vs worldwide, all governments, etc seems quite shortsighted as well as being ignorant of how many countries of the world function. Of the reported 144+_ government entities in Thailand has anyone heard of a single one that free of corruption? Neither have I. I doubt that many other countries in the world as so graced with this type of reputation.

[Lancelot]

While I agree that the Thai police need a significant reform, what can we expect when they are paid a salary that is insufficient with respect to the risks that they would (should) incur in carrying out their duties?

Another point is that could you imagine the life of an honest cop in a mostly corrupt force? At minimum you'd be a pariah; at worst probably end up dead courtesy of your fellow coppers.

Easy to criticise but not so easy to actually correct the problem.

For the record, I'm all for fixing the problem. The average Thai person deserves a decent and competent police force. But they must also be willing to pay for it.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Lancelot

[Sungram]

as a final result you can say that corruption here in it's intense is one of the most impressive and scarying developments of the entire system. I agree that anything can be changed but as long as only a minority is interested in changing our world to a better one the process is just slow.