New campaign to use both 'Siam' and 'Thailand'

[Merlin]

Hot media story right now:

"The Prince Damrongrajanuphap Library has proposed the reintroduction of the kingdom's old name ``Siam'' for use along with Thailand to celebrate the 60th anniversary of His Majesty the King's ascension to the throne next year."

So which do you like? Siam or Thailand?

Thailand to change name to 'Siam' - but keep 'Thailand'

New campaign to use 'Siam' and 'Thailand'

BANGKOK: -- An heir of Thailand's first interior and education minister has called for the government to alternately use 'Siam' and 'Thailand' as the offcial name of the Thai kingdom.

M.L. Panadda Disakul, the Deputy Governor of Pathum Thani Province on the outskirts of Bangkok, who is the heir of late Prince Damrong Rajanuparp, the first Thai interior and education minister, as well as the first Thai army chief,

noted that 'Siam' is a historically dignified and auspicious name, designated by King Rama IV, and it should be honourably preserved.

"Siam is an auspiciously dignified name, as it was designated by His Majesty King Rama IV, and it represents the longly-proud history of the Thai kingdom. So, it should be re-used as the official name of the Thai kingdom, alternately with Thailand", she said.

"An official campaign should be launched to promote the use of the alternate national name among Thai youths and the general public", she added.

She proposed the idea when she met Culture Minister Uraiwan Thienthong and senior Fine Arts Department officials yesterday.

M.L. Panadda is also the head of Prince Damrong Rajanuparp Museum and Library, where Mrs. Uraiwan and the senior officials visited yesterday.

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as the Netherlands and Holland; the United States and America; the Great Britain, the United Kingdom and England; Switzerland and Helvetia; Germany and Deutschland; and Japan and Nippon.

A previous Thai government changed the national name from 'Siam' to 'Thailand' in 1939 amid the opposition of a large number of Thais, she said.

--TNA 2005-05-14

Edited May 14, 2005 by george

[otherstuff1957]

Generally it's a political choice. The more liberal Govts. have almost always tried to return to the old Siam name, while the right-wing nationalists like Thailand! Just after WWII, when Field Marshal Pibun was regarded as a war criminal and Pridi was the PM, the country briefly returned to the Siam name. In the fifties FM Pibun (sometimes misspelled Pibul) reinvented himself as an anticommunist and was able to return to power. Thailand has been Thailand ever since then.

[LaoPo]

The way I read it, is that they want to use the name Siam (again) next to Thailand, like may other countries have 2 or even more names...

So, the poll is a little incorrect.

LaoPo

[Crossy]

If I read things correctly they want to call it "Siam Thailand" or "Thailand Siam" (or a variation on that theme), the main question is, WHY bother.

To be honest, I don't give a d@mn, my wife will always be Thai and my cat Siamese

[meadish_sweetball]

That thing which we call a rose

By any other name

Would smell as sweet

W. S.

Now go smell a khlong and tell me it isnt true.

[chownah]

  In the fifties FM Pibun (sometimes misspelled Pibul) reinvented.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A small, slightly off topic comment. I think that Pibul's name in Thai ends in the letter lahw....which is roughly equivalent to the English letter 'L' in pronunciation except when it comes at the end of a word where it is pronounced roughly like the letter 'N'. So his name would be pronounced 'Pibun', but the accepted Thai way to transliterate (not sure if this is the right word) from Thai script to English letters is to keep the lahw on the end as and English 'L'. In learning to pronounce Thai words when reading from English letters you should learn that there is never an 'L' sound on the end of a word and the letter 'L' found at the end is pronounced as an 'N'.

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

[wix]

I am all for Siam. Sulak Sivaraksa refuses to use the name Thailand. If you read some of his books and articles you can better understand the reasons for this. I believe the name Thailand reflects many of the major problems that exist in this country. Particularly the manipulation of cultural identity for political purposes. Thailland means the "Land of Thai people". Tough luck if you happen to be a Thai Muslim in the south, from a hill tribe in the north or from Isaan (whose people are essentially Lao).

This imposition of a cultural identity on people is the root of the problems in the south. Essentially the government implements policies that say to people if you want to be Thai you must speak Central Thai, be educated, Buddhist, middle-class consumer, have light skin, etc. These are continually reinforced through the media and education system. The Muslim people in the south simply don't fit this identity and don't want to. They resent having this continually forced upon them.

[Neeranam]

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

You are correct.

All to do with silent final consonants, or ones pronounced differently when at the end.

[custard]

You know the Thais also call Siam Commercial Bank 'Thai Commercial Bank' (Tanakan Thai Panit) in Thai. Why is that ?

I think it should be the other way round because foreigners are more acquinted with the term 'Thai' than 'Siam.

Edited May 13, 2005 by custard

[wolf5370]

I read once that officially it still is Siam.

This was because under the constitutional monarchy all laws have to be ratified by the monarchy...and the name change never was. Like I said, I read this 'somewhere' and can't remember the source, so not sure how true it is.

[gburns57au]

Thailland means the "Land of Thai people".

it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power.

[Insight]

"Thai birds"

"Siam birds"

Thai birds wins.

[Greer]

Actually I would guess it would be :

"Thai birds" or "Siamese birds"

Either way they both sound quite nice, and exotic...perhaps the latter more so...

[wolf5370]

Lady and the Tramp: "...we are Siamese if you please, we are Siamese if you don't please..."

[bangbuathong]

If I read things correctly they want to call it "Siam Thailand" or "Thailand Siam" (or a variation on that theme), the main question is, WHY bother.

To be honest, I don't give a d@mn, my wife will always be Thai and my cat Siamese 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

siamland

[bannork]

'land' is so common: England, Finland, Greenland, Scotland, Poland, N.Ireland, etc there's nothing original in it, unlike Siam which foreigners cannot even pronounce correctly.

[Popeyethesailorman]

If I read things correctly they want to call it "Siam Thailand" or "Thailand Siam" (or a variation on that theme), the main question is, WHY bother.

To be honest, I don't give a d@mn, my wife will always be Thai and my cat Siamese 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

siamland

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaiam

[austen]

Siamvisa?

[The_Other_Mac]

Thailland means the "Land of Thai people".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like **** it does. Find me a credible source for "Thai" meaning "free", without refering to that bizarre factoid. Sometimes I think they just invent bits of historical translation so they can have a laugh at foreigners.

"Thai" is the same word as the linguistic language group, "Tai". It's spelt with a H for the same reason as "Thanon" and every other Thai word beginning with a "proper" T sound. It's correctly pronounced "Tailand". It's a spelling mistake. Another good reason to change it back to Siam...

While we're at it, Charoen Krung doesn't mean New Road.

[/end rant]

[Pink Mist]

Thailland means the "Land of Thai people".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like **** it does. Find me a credible source for "Thai" meaning "free", without refering to that bizarre factoid. Sometimes I think they just invent bits of historical translation so they can have a laugh at foreigners.

"Thai" is the same word as the linguistic language group, "Tai". It's spelt with a H for the same reason as "Thanon" and every other Thai word beginning with a "proper" T sound. It's correctly pronounced "Tailand". It's a spelling mistake. Another good reason to change it back to Siam...

While we're at it, Charoen Krung doesn't mean New Road.

[/end rant]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The reference to it meaning free etc., was in an article in the Bangkok Post yesterday.

[JacknDanny]

  In the fifties FM Pibun (sometimes misspelled Pibul) reinvented.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A small, slightly off topic comment. I think that Pibul's name in Thai ends in the letter lahw....which is roughly equivalent to the English letter 'L' in pronunciation except when it comes at the end of a word where it is pronounced roughly like the letter 'N'. So his name would be pronounced 'Pibun', but the accepted Thai way to transliterate (not sure if this is the right word) from Thai script to English letters is to keep the lahw on the end as and English 'L'. In learning to pronounce Thai words when reading from English letters you should learn that there is never an 'L' sound on the end of a word and the letter 'L' found at the end is pronounced as an 'N'.

Another example of this kind of transliteration is the Prime Ministers family name. It is spelled Shinawatra or something like that but the final 'ra' is not pronounced. Reading his name aloud you would say 'shinawat'...more or less. If I'm wrong on this, someone out there please let me know as I'm always interested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that you are slightly wrong. The ra at the end is not pronounced, you are quite right. However the shina part of the name is pronounced as a T

[gburns57au]

Thailland means the "Land of Thai people".

it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power.

Like **** it does. Find me a credible source for "Thai" meaning "free", without refering to that bizarre factoid. Sometimes I think they just invent bits of historical translation so they can have a laugh at foreigners.

"Thai" is the same word as the linguistic language group, "Tai". It's spelt with a H for the same reason as "Thanon" and every other Thai word beginning with a "proper" T sound. It's correctly pronounced "Tailand". It's a spelling mistake. Another good reason to change it back to Siam...

While we're at it, Charoen Krung doesn't mean New Road.

[/end rant]

From the New Model Thai English dictionary compiled by So Sethaputra.....

ไทย Free, Freedom loving, pertaining to Thailand or the Thai, the Thai language เป็นไทยแก่ตัว to be free, independant.

Edited May 14, 2005 by gburns57au

[thymode91]

Thailland means the "Land of Thai people".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it actually means Free land or land of the free due to it never having been colonised by a foreign power.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with this "Free land or land of the free" I just heard from a Thai friend of mine..

[Jai Dee]

... unlike Siam which foreigners cannot even pronounce correctly.

True...

How many times have you heard it pronounced differently?... by both Thais and farang?

"sigh-am"... "see-arm"... "sigh-arm"... etc.

[The_Other_Mac]

in an article in the Bangkok Post yesterday.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They also said that UK is the same as Britain. I can hardly think of a less factually correct source. Give me the guy on the bus from Poipet any day.

From the New Model Thai English dictionary compiled by So Sethaputra.....

ไทย Free, Freedom loving, pertaining to Thailand or the Thai, the Thai language เป็นไทยแก่ตัว to be free, independant.

Circular argument, "pertaining to Thailand".

While we're at it, Lonely Planet and the hundreds of websites that repeat the "fact" don't count either. I'm fully aware that any number of secondary sources have spread the idea, which is also taught to Thai children in school. My claim is that this idea was intentionally spread internationally to justify the change from "Siam". Most foreigners and uneducated Siamese were not in a position to question it, and since it sounded like such a nice idea, no one was inclined to. However as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, "Thai" (Tai) does not cover the ethnic Lao in Isaan and ethnic Malay in the south.

In other words, it was part of a huge propaganda campaign to partially erase the separate idendities of these regions and force them to accept Bangkok rule. At around the same, schools taught only in central Thai dialect, and printed material printed only in central Thai.

And what would Seri Thai mean, to Thai speakers? Free free?

Coinages are part of a language too, so the argument is a bit spurious. If enough people think it means that, it does. But if you're going to refer back to history and etymology to decide what name to use for this country.... Anyway I voted Siam

[gburns57au]

in an article in the Bangkok Post yesterday.

They also said that UK is the same as Britain. I can hardly think of a less factually correct source. Give me the guy on the bus from Poipet any day.

From the New Model Thai English dictionary compiled by So Sethaputra.....

ไทย Free, Freedom loving, pertaining to Thailand or the Thai, the Thai language เป็นไทยแก่ตัว to be free, independant.

Circular argument, "pertaining to Thailand".

While we're at it, Lonely Planet and the hundreds of websites that repeat the "fact" don't count either. I'm fully aware that any number of secondary sources have spread the idea, which is also taught to Thai children in school. My claim is that this idea was intentionally spread internationally to justify the change from "Siam". Most foreigners and uneducated Siamese were not in a position to question it, and since it sounded like such a nice idea, no one was inclined to. However as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, "Thai" (Tai) does not cover the ethnic Lao in Isaan and ethnic Malay in the south.

In other words, it was part of a huge propaganda campaign to partially erase the separate idendities of these regions and force them to accept Bangkok rule. At around the same, schools taught only in central Thai dialect, and printed material printed only in central Thai.

And what would Seri Thai mean, to Thai speakers? Free free?

Coinages are part of a language too, so the argument is a bit spurious. If enough people think it means that, it does. But if you're going to refer back to history and etymology to decide what name to use for this country.... Anyway I voted Siam

I sense a multiple nick here.....only two people in the whole world that hold this opinion....and they both post here.....

[The_Other_Mac]

I'm glad someone else is on my side, even if it's only myself

[YimSiamTelecom]

So they are trying to pinch our name?

Brian

Yim Siam Telecom

[ snip [ url removed, please see forum rules ]

Hot media story right now:

"The Prince Damrongrajanuphap Library has proposed the reintroduction of the kingdom's old name ``Siam'' for use along with Thailand to celebrate the 60th anniversary of His Majesty the King's ascension to the throne next year."

So which do you like?  Siam or Thailand?

Thailand to change name to 'Siam' - but keep 'Thailand'

New campaign to use 'Siam' and 'Thailand'

BANGKOK: -- An heir of Thailand's first interior and education minister has called for the government to alternately use 'Siam' and 'Thailand' as the offcial name of the Thai kingdom.

M.L. Panadda Disakul, the Deputy Governor of Pathum Thani Province on the outskirts of Bangkok, who is the heir of late Prince Damrong Rajanuparp, the first Thai interior and education minister, as well as the first Thai army chief,

noted that 'Siam' is a historically dignified and auspicious name, designated by King Rama IV, and it should be honourably preserved.

"Siam is an auspiciously dignified name, as it was designated by His Majesty King Rama IV, and it represents the longly-proud history of the Thai kingdom. So, it should be re-used as the official name of the Thai kingdom, alternately with Thailand", she said.

"An official campaign should be launched to promote the use of the alternate national name among Thai youths and the general public", she added.   

She proposed the idea when she met Culture Minister Uraiwan Thienthong and senior Fine Arts Department officials yesterday.

M.L. Panadda is also the head of Prince Damrong Rajanuparp Museum and Library, where Mrs. Uraiwan and the senior officials visited yesterday.

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as the Netherlands and Holland; the United States and America; the Great Britain, the United Kingdom and England; Switzerland and Helvetia; Germany and Deutschland; and Japan and Nippon.

A previous Thai government changed the national name from 'Siam' to 'Thailand' in 1939 amid the opposition of a large number of Thais, she said.

--TNA 2005-05-14

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited May 14, 2005 by george

[phastmike]

  They also said that UK is the same as Britain. I can hardly think of a less factually correct source. Give me the guy on the bus from Poipet any day.

Exactly... UK or Great Britain same as England ... LOL

Well, Siam was the name untill a change around the WWII... We still say siamese cats and siamese twins.

They should use time for better things than this!

[Totster]

She pointed out that many countries have more than one national name, such as ....... the Great Britain, the United Kingdom and England

England = England

Great Britain = England, Wales, Scotland (mainland)

United Kingdom = England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland (full name - United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland)

Just thought I'd display the facts.