One For The Foreign Teachers...

[10027586]

At my school teachers use 100% English (except in Thai class). The idea is that total immersion helps with rapid language acquisition.

[toptuan]

Toptuan: are medical students passed on to the next grade like that? aircraft engineers?

I dunno, and I don't wanna know.... ....and the next worry...nuclear physicists?

[toptuan]

At my school teachers use 100% English (except in Thai class). The idea is that total immersion helps with rapid language acquisition.

I believe your school is a spectacular exception in the Thai educational system. Kudos to your school director and/or department heads.

I teach seminars to primary school and senior high school English teachers on a regular basis here in Thailand. Over the years I've probably taught close to a thousand Thai teachers of the English language. I'd safely say less than 5% can string an English sentence together without a major struggle, and certainly not on the fly. Walking by their classrooms, you'll hear 95% Thai and the rest in English. These teachers are simply modeling that with which they themselves grew up. Therein lies Thailand's English-speaking dilemma. How to get teachers to break out of the "Thai way" into a modern language learning M.O.

To illustrate the blind adherence to the "Thai way," I once was asked to judge an English-speaking competition at a vocational college in our adjoining province. Part of the judges' responsibilities was to read questions to the contestants. One of the questions I was given was clearly full of grammatical errors (well, actually most were flawed). I quietly asked the Thai judge next to me if I could re-word the question into a grammatically correct sentence. She shook her head emphatically with the instruction, "No, just go ahead and read it as is. That's the way we say it in English here in Thailand!"

[AsiaCheese]

At my school teachers use 100% English (except in Thai class). The idea is that total immersion helps with rapid language acquisition.

I believe your school is a spectacular exception in the Thai educational system. Kudos to your school director and/or department heads.

I teach seminars to primary school and senior high school English teachers on a regular basis here in Thailand. Over the years I've probably taught close to a thousand Thai teachers of the English language. I'd safely say less than 5% can string an English sentence together without a major struggle, and certainly not on the fly. Walking by their classrooms, you'll hear 95% Thai and the rest in English. These teachers are simply modeling that with which they themselves grew up. Therein lies Thailand's English-speaking dilemma. How to get teachers to break out of the "Thai way" into a modern language learning M.O.

To illustrate the blind adherence to the "Thai way," I once was asked to judge an English-speaking competition at a vocational college in our adjoining province. Part of the judges' responsibilities was to read questions to the contestants. One of the questions I was given was clearly full of grammatical errors (well, actually most were flawed). I quietly asked the Thai judge next to me if I could re-word the question into a grammatically correct sentence. She shook her head emphatically with the instruction, "No, just go ahead and read it as is. That's the way we say it in English here in Thailand!"

I'm just simply baffled that no-one in the Ministry of Education seems to be aware of what I would label a grave deficiency (not wanting to target the entire school system, albeit tempting...) in the way kids are taught English, which after all has flown past French as the "universal language" a long, long time ago.

I mean: it's not just a matter of how well one is able to communicate with a dept. store cashier (= not well usually, if at all) -- it's a matter of international business & relations in general where Thailand ends up in the same corner as [--fill in any newly discovered native community here--]. I've been talking to a number of Thai English teachers, both up-country and from around Bangkok (same-same, no different): they had a hard time following my carefully reduced-to-10%-English, and I had an even harder time trying to figure out what they were trying to say. In my book, that zooms right past any classification of "English teacher".

In a sense, it would be oh-so-simple. Teaching starts off like marketing: you first figure out the best way of getting your message across, and you then build your approach on that, right? But then, there might be other cultural differences that play into the whole thing: Westerners have this massive urge to communicate and to get to "the bottom of things", with all its potentially ugly side-effects. Thais also like to communicate, but in a completely different manner, often superficial, and very seldom drilling down to the bottom (or anywhere near). To do that, you don't really need to be able to string together sentences; if what you're about to say comes halfway across, there's nothing more to worry about... and the "Thai way" remains what it is!

[Scott]

It's a good idea to make sure what group of people we are talking about. Our foreign teachers all use English exclusively in the classroom. The Thai teachers (including the Thai-English lessons--which are primarily grammar) are taught using more Thai than English. We have a few excellent Thai-English teachers and they can hold their own in any conversation and their command and use of grammar is excellent as well, but they find it easier to explain the grammar in Thai.

The students get to use the English with the foreign teachers.

By the way, we also have plenty of the type of teachers mentioned above who can't string a sentence together very easily!

[toptuan]

The Thai teachers (including the Thai-English lessons--which are primarily grammar) are taught using more Thai than English.

Interestingly, most of my uni. students and ALL of my Thai colleagues could run circles around me when it comes to the rules of English grammar. Thai students are taught the rules of English grammar from fifth grade on. That's EIGHT years of English grammar instruction! Unfortunately, it doesn't mean one whit when they can't transfer their knowledge of grammar to oral and written skills. Somehow there's this GREAT CHASM between theory and practice. Aye, there's the rub.

[Scott]

Yes, it is a chasm.

[PeaceBlondie]

A chasm that makes it almost impossible for most Thais to learn English.

[ThaiRich]

You communicate in English. That is the language they are supposed to be learning.

Here, here! Exactly, the reason most Thai students study English for nearly 15 years and can not speak or understand, is that for the fifteen years they have studied their Thai teacher did not speak English.

If I go to Spanish class and the teacher is only speaking English. I will not learn Spanish.

[ThaiRich]

It's a good idea to make sure what group of people we are talking about. Our foreign teachers all use English exclusively in the classroom. The Thai teachers (including the Thai-English lessons--which are primarily grammar) are taught using more Thai than English. We have a few excellent Thai-English teachers and they can hold their own in any conversation and their command and use of grammar is excellent as well, but they find it easier to explain the grammar in Thai.

The students get to use the English with the foreign teachers.

By the way, we also have plenty of the type of teachers mentioned above who can't string a sentence together very easily!

Yes Scott, this is correct. But in a one hour class, how many minutes should be spent on "explaining". Most Thai teacher spend the entire period explaining. Ergo, the students understand, but they don't know how to speak the grammar correctly or understand when they hear. When we teach for example math. Do we spend the entire period explaining or do we explain and then move on to practice? Explanation without practice leads to inability.

Edited March 3, 2010 by ThaiRich

[coalminer]

Yes Scott, this is correct. But in a one hour class, how many minutes should be spent on "explaining". Most Thai teacher spend the entire period explaining. Ergo, the students understand, but they don't know how to speak the grammar correctly or understand when they hear. When we teach for example math. Do we spend the entire period explaining or do we explain and then move on to practice? Explanation without practice leads to inability.

What I have seen about teaching English in Thai classes and my experience about this is:

1. Most of the THAI teachers who are giving English classes and many INDIAN/PHIlLIPINO teachers teaching English don't master spoken English enough in order to teach students spoken English.

The few Thai and Asian teachers who think that they are "doctor at honoris causa in the English language" and feel confident enough to speak English are so bad that they do more wrong than good.

I was a few weeks ago invited at a school party as the Director of that school was celebrating his 60th birthday.

At the party, some of the "English (Thai)" teachers wanted absolutely to have a chat with "the fahrang" in English.

English is not my primary language, and not even my second language.

But what they managed to throw out in a basic conversation was equivalent to the language of a toddler in England.

2. Most of the schools, English Program school included, need to keep a budget and spend the budget according to the importance of the subjects.

I know some English Program schools in my regio who had sacked ALL the Western teachers and replaced them by Philipino, Indian or wrse teachers in order to save money on the budget.

The explanation which I received from the schools is that English (and Chinese) are NOT IMPORTANT subjects to a Thai national.

What counts is that the children learn how to read and write the "phasa Thai" and learn how to respect the Buddhist religion and respect the elders and their superiors.

In the English language, one would say:

"Learn how to speak f...ing Thai and learn how to go work later to support your whisky guzzling brothers and the sick buffalo's."

3. Most of the posters in this thread are convinced that the Thais NEED the English language to be something later.

Most of the posters in this thread are convinced that the Thais NEED to have good final reports in order to have a job later.

NOTHING is further from the truth as thinking that English and good final reports are important.

The gross of the Thais feels no need whatsover to say goodbye to their beloved country and go to work in a cold, rainy, unfriendly country where the whole system is based on competition.

The first commandment of the Thais is "Jai yen yen".

Try to get a work faster done by a Thai by inplyng the rules of your country and watch the results.

Just my 2 pennies in this discussion.

Edited March 3, 2010 by coalminer

[PeaceBlondie]

Your first couple of years teaching English here can be in an EP with classes of 30 max, three hours minimum per week. After that, you're wasting time teaching conversation. IMHO.

[culicine]

Had a recent conversation with one of my ex private students, now in an honours program at the Uni of Minnesota (getting straight A's into his second year too!). After studying there a couple of years he came to the conclusion that his friends over there study to get knowledge, while Thai students study to get a piece of paper. What they learn is largely irrelevant to many. While it could be said that not failing saves face, this is really only a recent policy. Students in my wife's time could fail and had to repeat the grade. Thus students in that generation studied much harder than they do these days. As it is, I'll pass all my students if they put in the effort. If they don;t put in the effort I'll put them through the grinder over the next few weeks (their holidays), until they can padd the retests.

[ThaiRich]

Yes Scott, this is correct. But in a one hour class, how many minutes should be spent on "explaining". Most Thai teacher spend the entire period explaining. Ergo, the students understand, but they don't know how to speak the grammar correctly or understand when they hear. When we teach for example math. Do we spend the entire period explaining or do we explain and then move on to practice? Explanation without practice leads to inability.

What I have seen about teaching English in Thai classes and my experience about this is:

1. Most of the THAI teachers who are giving English classes and many INDIAN/PHIlLIPINO teachers teaching English don't master spoken English enough in order to teach students spoken English.

The few Thai and Asian teachers who think that they are "doctor at honoris causa in the English language" and feel confident enough to speak English are so bad that they do more wrong than good.

I was a few weeks ago invited at a school party as the Director of that school was celebrating his 60th birthday.

At the party, some of the "English (Thai)" teachers wanted absolutely to have a chat with "the fahrang" in English.

English is not my primary language, and not even my second language.

But what they managed to throw out in a basic conversation was equivalent to the language of a toddler in England.

2. Most of the schools, English Program school included, need to keep a budget and spend the budget according to the importance of the subjects.

I know some English Program schools in my regio who had sacked ALL the Western teachers and replaced them by Philipino, Indian or wrse teachers in order to save money on the budget.

The explanation which I received from the schools is that English (and Chinese) are NOT IMPORTANT subjects to a Thai national.

What counts is that the children learn how to read and write the "phasa Thai" and learn how to respect the Buddhist religion and respect the elders and their superiors.

In the English language, one would say:

"Learn how to speak f...ing Thai and learn how to go work later to support your whisky guzzling brothers and the sick buffalo's."

3. Most of the posters in this thread are convinced that the Thais NEED the English language to be something later.

Most of the posters in this thread are convinced that the Thais NEED to have good final reports in order to have a job later.

NOTHING is further from the truth as thinking that English and good final reports are important.

The gross of the Thais feels no need whatsover to say goodbye to their beloved country and go to work in a cold, rainy, unfriendly country where the whole system is based on competition.

The first commandment of the Thais is "Jai yen yen".

Try to get a work faster done by a Thai by inplyng the rules of your country and watch the results.

Just my 2 pennies in this discussion.

Interesting 2 pennies worth. Most of us don't think Thais need English. I personally don't think they need English. Where will they use English? Bedsides the whores and scam artist, the average Thai has no use for English. We are here teaching Thais English because Thais want us to. I have never went to any school to apply for a position and told them they must give me a job, cause the kids need to know English. I usually got my job as a result of a school looking for someone to teach English. Once I have been given a job and I am receiving money I do the best that I can to try to get the students speaking English. I mean, it is my job so I should work hard and do the best I can. So to have some ninny post a comment like you have because I have high work ethics is INSIPID.

Edited March 4, 2010 by ThaiRich

[PeaceBlondie]

We need to care about our work. But an hour a week of grammar or just conversation is spinning our wheels. Most Thais have no use for English.

[Scott]

First, further comments about whores and scam artists will result in deletions and warnings.

Second, I teach a number of adults at a company. They need English and they use English. It's just a factory, but all the equipment is from overseas. Everything from the technical manuals and installation procedures are written in English--even though most of it comes from a European country that isn't English speaking. The consultants who come in to assist do so in English.

The products they manufacture are not sold overseas, but nowadays the world is fairly interconnected and these rather simple factory workers need to be able to read and speak some English.

Occasionally people are sent to meetings which have to do with production. Even the meetings they attended in China were conducted in English.

Does everybody need English? Probably not; but for a fair number of them it is important.

[ThaiRich]

My apologies for my poor choice of words, If I have offended anyone please accept my apologies.

Richard

Edited March 4, 2010 by ThaiRich

[coalminer]

Interesting 2 pennies worth. Most of us don't think Thais need English. I personally don't think they need English. Where will they use English? Bedsides the whores and scam artist, the average Thai has no use for English. We are here teaching Thais English because Thais want us to. I have never went to any school to apply for a position and told them they must give me a job, cause the kids need to know English. I usually got my job as a result of a school looking for someone to teach English.

In ths school of my daughter (English Program) they had REAL English teachers for the EP and for the English language in the Thai program.

But a few years ago, incidently at the same time that the Government decided that English teachers from the USA needed to be paid a salary which is astronomical for a Thai and pay taxes accrodingly, almost all English teachers were sacked and replaced by Indian/Philipino teachers.

I can assure you that if you want to have a good laugh yu only need to have a chat in English with an Indian or a Philipino.

Laughter guaranteed.

But what's even worse, the school started to give ALL the lessons which were before given in English (Science and Math) at the EP in the Thai language.

And I can assure you that the school of my daughter is not the only one to have taken these decisions.

MAYBE, they asked you to teach the "English".

But only in order to make money by adverstising that they have now an "English Program".

An English Program that is beneath all standards.

Once I have been given a job and I am receiving money I do the best that I can to try to get the students speaking English. I mean, it is my job so I should work hard and do the best I can. So to have some ninny post a comment like you have because I have high work ethics is INSIPID.

"Bedsides the whores and scam artist ..."

If that sentence is reflecting your "high work ethics" I pitty your students.

[coalminer]

First, further comments about whores and scam artists will result in deletions and warnings.

Second, I teach a number of adults at a company. They need English and they use English. It's just a factory, but all the equipment is from overseas. Everything from the technical manuals and installation procedures are written in English--even though most of it comes from a European country that isn't English speaking. The consultants who come in to assist do so in English.

The products they manufacture are not sold overseas, but nowadays the world is fairly interconnected and these rather simple factory workers need to be able to read and speak some English.

Occasionally people are sent to meetings which have to do with production. Even the meetings they attended in China were conducted in English.

Does everybody need English? Probably not; but for a fair number of them it is important.

I don't argue about the way the comapny works where you are employed.

But how many companies in Thailand are employing ONLY fluent English speakers and readers in order to work in a factory and "screw the nut on the bolt: the whole day?

90?

80?

70?

or

not even 10?

PS.: With THAILAND I mean the whole of Thailand and not just Bangkok (although Thailand may be limited to Bangkok for some people).

Second, you made a complete valid remark with your statement that "I teach a number of adults".

A lot of Thai people I know didn't gave a hoot about the study English of the English language until they were face with the reality.

In fact, they didn't give a hoot about the whole study as they would have their degree anyway.

But many of them had to go at a later age back to study English or whatever if they wanted to get a decent job.

Of course, the study is paid then by the employer who hires a fahrang to do the work that other fahrangs with high work ethics didn't acomplished at the school.

[elcent]

nothing else to add on ...

[Scott]

How many companies? I don't know, but in the little microcosm of the area where I work, there is plenty of demand. There is more demand than there are teachers to fill it. The students I teach started studying on their own--and I don't come cheap. Eventually, because of demand, I was asked to work at the factory. And then the factory next to it asked if I could teach--and I said yes.

In the microcosm where I live, there are factories up and down the main road that have or want a teacher. Those that I know of:

--A plastics factory that makes items for export. They need employees who can speak to overseas customers and fill orders. They need someone to read letters and emails and draft responses.

--A clothing maker that does close to the same as the above.

--An importer, who imports goods and parts from a variety of countries which are assembled and sold here in Thailand (and probably exported out, but in SE Asia).

Some time ago, I was approached by a small group of bank employees. There bank was being bought by a Singaporean owned group and the criteria of who would remain employed and who would be terminated was being made on one basis: Competency in English.

One of my colleagues recently returned to the education field after he tired of full-time employment with a company. He still free-lances with them and spends 3 weekends a month sometimes in places such as China, Laos and Vietnam. He travels with his Thai boss, who can't speak English, so he translates for him. If the boss can't go, he sends him.

Now, with the exception of the banking business, we haven't even begun to touch on the service industries that rely on English. And we haven't touched on the tourism industry. We haven't touched on internet and web site based jobs that require a command of English.

My Thai friend who reads, writes and speaks English extremely well, commands a higher salary than I get. The only thing that separates him out in his work is his language ability.

And I might add that the factories that I teach at aren't located in Bangkok.

[Firelily]

Maybe I am wrong, but more English-speaking people would give Thailand the chance to rise above the competition in the international markets (or, at this time, to catch up with them!). Maybe a little more upscale jobs instead of the bottom of the bottom factory work.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Firelily

[coalminer]

How many companies? I don't know, but in the little microcosm of the area where I work, there is plenty of demand. There is more demand than there are teachers to fill it. The students I teach started studying on their own--and I don't come cheap. Eventually, because of demand, I was asked to work at the factory. And then the factory next to it asked if I could teach--and I said yes.

In the microcosm where I live, there are factories up and down the main road that have or want a teacher. Those that I know of:

--A plastics factory that makes items for export. They need employees who can speak to overseas customers and fill orders. They need someone to read letters and emails and draft responses.

--A clothing maker that does close to the same as the above.

--An importer, who imports goods and parts from a variety of countries which are assembled and sold here in Thailand (and probably exported out, but in SE Asia).

Some time ago, I was approached by a small group of bank employees. There bank was being bought by a Singaporean owned group and the criteria of who would remain employed and who would be terminated was being made on one basis: Competency in English.

One of my colleagues recently returned to the education field after he tired of full-time employment with a company. He still free-lances with them and spends 3 weekends a month sometimes in places such as China, Laos and Vietnam. He travels with his Thai boss, who can't speak English, so he translates for him. If the boss can't go, he sends him.

Now, with the exception of the banking business, we haven't even begun to touch on the service industries that rely on English. And we haven't touched on the tourism industry. We haven't touched on internet and web site based jobs that require a command of English.

My Thai friend who reads, writes and speaks English extremely well, commands a higher salary than I get. The only thing that separates him out in his work is his language ability.

And I might add that the factories that I teach at aren't located in Bangkok.

So, all the Thai Government websites which are not translated or very poor translated is because of what?

All these Thai Government websites which are "one direction" and posts in English are automaticly archived verticaly are because of what?

Not enough English teachers or Thai kee nieaw?

I read every day dozens of flyers, hand-out's, posters, etc. in a bad English translation.

Even in a Thai magazine for children (sold every week in the school) the English page is so full of errors that I have told my child better not to read it.

What is the cause.

They can not find 1 (ONE) English speaking person to go trough the translation of 1 page?

OR they simply don't wat to spend a dime on the English pages)?

I could go on with giving examples, but I think you got the point.

I know a lot of English people who came to live in the regio and woud love to make some money teaching the "engarish".

And most of them are qualified.

But they can find NO WORK over here.

Only because they are too expensive if they ask the wage determined by Bangkok taxes.

[Scott]

I think this thread is going off-topic. The OP talked about the no fail system in education and I believe the title is crazy teaching practices. So let's try and veer back to that area, since inflammatory remarks are starting to surface.

Many, many Thais who speak English relatively well, have a problem with written English. Where I work we have many native speakers who can assist them, but whether or not it is face saving or they think it is correct, many of them insist on putting down in writing something that is wrong. I even had one of our assistants ask me to write a small instruction sign in English. Very simple. I saw the sign a few days later and it was a grammatical mess. I asked the assistant what happened and she explained "Oh, I corrected your grammar!"

Language acquisition is complex and students are going to learn different skills at different times. I try not to be too hard on students because it shuts them up and turns them off. I try to emphasize on thing and let the other things go. Should many of my students fail--probably, but I can't and at this point in their learning, I think it would be counter productive.

[toptuan]

...I'll pass all my students if they put in the effort. If they don;t put in the effort I'll put them through the grinder over the next few weeks (their holidays), until they can padd the retests.

So if they don't put in the effort at first, you allow them to sacrifice your holidays too. Is that correct?

[coalminer]

The OP talked about the no fail system

As far as I know, the "no fail system" is a Thai invention and it comes from the opinion that if a student fails it is because the teacher has failed in his job.

Jet, somebody posted the assumption that this is only happening since a few years and before students COULD fail en were failing and even doubling grades.

This sound kind of unbelievable to me and contradicting all the Thai rules of "face saving".

Is this "no fail system" indeed something new (backup's please), and if so, when did this started?

[culicine]

...I'll pass all my students if they put in the effort. If they don;t put in the effort I'll put them through the grinder over the next few weeks (their holidays), until they can padd the retests.

So if they don't put in the effort at first, you allow them to sacrifice your holidays too. Is that correct?

The students finish at the end of February, and I still attend school until the end of March. No problems:) I would say our efforts with these students is starting to pay off - this year more of the best students in M3 are staying on to M4, and quite a number of the weaker ones are leaving due to the pressure put on them (and the fact that "straight 50's": doesn't look so good - as you know a 50 (or a 1 GPA) usually idicates a fail).

[Scott]

I can't back up anything that I say, but my anecdotal information would suggest that it is a very old policy. We have to remember that upper level education for large numbers of students is a relatively new thing to Thailand. Students were weeded out early and often some years ago. Only the best and the brightest (and richest and well-connected) were able to continue to study at the Mathyom level.

The no-fail policy appears to be a cultural thing. Inclusion is more important than exclusion. Being a part of a group (a class) is more important than being a good student. Cooperation is encouraged and competition is discouraged. Mediocrity is acceptable; excellence is viewed as arrogance.

It also fits well with the patronage system. You owe your position to those above, who have been gracious enough to allow you to continue (or pass).

[elkangorito]

I think this thread is going off-topic. The OP talked about the no fail system in education and I believe the title is crazy teaching practices. So let's try and veer back to that area, since inflammatory remarks are starting to surface.

Many, many Thais who speak English relatively well, have a problem with written English. Where I work we have many native speakers who can assist them, but whether or not it is face saving or they think it is correct, many of them insist on putting down in writing something that is wrong. I even had one of our assistants ask me to write a small instruction sign in English. Very simple. I saw the sign a few days later and it was a grammatical mess. I asked the assistant what happened and she explained "Oh, I corrected your grammar!"

Language acquisition is complex and students are going to learn different skills at different times. I try not to be too hard on students because it shuts them up and turns them off. I try to emphasize on thing and let the other things go. Should many of my students fail--probably, but I can't and at this point in their learning, I think it would be counter productive.

I will be bold & brazen enough to say that I think it has EVERYTHING to do with that lovely word "culture".

Most Thai people I know do not want anything to change regarding Thailand. Afterall, most of them have absolutely no responsibility for anything after being subject to years of indoctrination.

The reason why I think that flyers, brochures etc are written in poor English is because of silly "pride". Somehow, many Thais seem to think that accepting & then using "good" advice from someone who is not Thai, is demeaning. This now brings up other demons like "nationalism" & zenophobia.

Australia went through this phase yonks ago but thankfully, most of the old farts who think like this are gone or "on their way out".

In summation, the word "change" I think is pivotal to this whole discussion. Thais simply don't want this kind of change & if they do, it must be on their terms.

Just watch them bury their heads in the sand when you mention things like "bring in an international adjudicator to ensure democratic voting at elections" or "reduce the academic load on students to subjects specific to a particular career path". Of course, the "head burying" is normally accompanied with cries of "It must be done ONLY by Thais".

Now for the ultimate question.

Does Thailand really want to change or does it simply want to be "equivalent" to the rest of the world, without any effort, in terms of economy & a plethora of other things?

I believe that if Thailand can accept change with less resistance, it will move forward relatively quickly. I also believe that this must start on 2 fronts:

1] Democracy.

2] Education.

[PeaceBlondie]

It's all about saving face. It predates the Chakri dynastry. It is the foundation of Thai culture. Face is more important than the wai. Face is more important than Thai education.