Are Thai Women Incurious Lovers?

[TheLaughingMan]

I was just joking, inferring I find intelligent women a zillion times sexier than not intelligent, unlike the men who only date farmers daughters and get offended thinking that a woman with a brain might have more to offer.

[cdnvic]

Could those not directly talking about the actual topic please stop posting?

[bifftastic]

I was just joking, inferring I find intelligent women a zillion times sexier than not intelligent, unlike the men who only date farmers daughters and get offended thinking that a woman with a brain might have more to offer.

and why would you assume that someone who's father is a farmer would be unintelligent? un-educated, perhaps, but education can take many forms, some happens in schools, some happens in life. I hope some happens in yours.

[Goinghomesoon]

Yeah Biff! I meet a lot of highly educated men through my work and most of my friends are well educated. But I really do think my husband - who left school at 14 - has more appreciation of how the world works, and is much more interested in learning about new things than most of the educated guys.

[mark45y]

I was just joking, inferring I find intelligent women a zillion times sexier than not intelligent, unlike the men who only date farmers daughters and get offended thinking that a woman with a brain might have more to offer.

How could you say such a terrible thing. My wife was a farmers daughter. Sure she dropped out of school at 16 and went to work in a beauty shop. But by 17 she owned the shop and at 18 owned three. And then she married a cop. At 20 they had three businesses and a large rice farm. He was involved in some illegal things such as running stolen tractors over the border and selling them for cash and there were rumors that he killed some people but nevertheless they had a good life.

When I met her at 25 she was very sexy. She did not have much intellectual curiosity but she kept the house clean. I think she picked me because she thought I was a step up from the cop. She said he beat her up and she didn’t like the rumors of him killing people. She was so sexy she had an affair with my best friend. I worked offshore and was gone a lot.

What does this have to do with this thread? My wife wasn’t Thai. She was a blond haired blue eyed Texan. It is not just Thai women who are incurious.

And I don’t think farmers daughter’s are unintelligent but in a lot of cases, street (or field) smarts replace institutes of higher learning. Now, if you were a farmer you might really understand the sexiness of a farmers daughter. Also if the OP was a farmer she might understand more about the rural woman’s world view.

Do you ever read the guys who post on Thai Visa who are farmers in Thailand? They seem very well adjusted. Perhaps incuriousness is not a Thai thing. Perhaps it is a rural thing.

Except for the fact that my ex wife was tall and blond and blue eyed she was just like a lady from Issan. Matter of fact her chili was hotter than most I have eaten in Thailand and she wouldn’t flinch at cooking road kill, robins, possum or any manner of wild thing that the boys shot or trapped. Rural parts of the American southwest are about 100 years behind the rest of the country in many cultural aspects. I suspect the same is true of Thailand and one of the reasons that there is such a dichotomy in current politics.

[kaewmala]

I think if we try to stay away from stereotyping _any_ group of people, we all can enjoy some really friendly and insightful discussion. Being someone who enjoys teasing myself, I understand that sometimes it's easy to say things that one doesn't really mean or the said thing can be misconstrued. Ironies aren't always appreciated by all people.

But back to the original topic -- Thai women in Thai-farang relationship -- we can't forget that the differences or conflicts in such a relationship has both gender and cultural dimensions. Because one is in a cross-cultural relationship doesn't mean that whatever the other person does can be explained by his/her culture. (I recently got a question from an American, I think, who asked me if the Thai woman who refused to be his GF officially but would stalk and interfere with any of his love interests "for fun", was behaving in a Thai way.)

Apart from extreme cases of psychopaths, male and female, who more or less act in similar ways across cultures, in some respects the difference between the mentally well adjusted women and men can be greater than the difference between Thai-ness and farang-ness. In my observation, many foreign men often jump to a conclusion that their Thai wives/GFs do this or that because "it's Thai culture". Is it? Or is it always? The differences between women and men exist and in full evidence in all cultures, and only add onto the cultural difference in cross-cultural relationships.

On the notion of relationship intimacy, there is probably a cultural difference between the Western and Eastern (Thai) ways. In the West, a couple is a unit of two individuals who share and are expected to share exclusive and intimate lives together--the two lovers have the physical as well as spiritual/intellectual bonding, with families and friends on the peripheries In the East, a couple is _not_ a unit of two individuals, living in exclusive bonding invariably independent from the larger circles of families and friends. The couple exist in a larger community intertwined with other types of familial and friendly relationships. Of course, there are exceptions, but by and large these are the patterns you can more or less count on. Problems arise when people who get in a cross-cultural relationship are unprepared for this type of cultural differences--or worse don't make an effort to understand it and suffering conflicts and unhappiness in the relationship as a result.

cheers,

[IanForbes]

Staying on topic... "INCURIOUS" - Definition... Adjective...

1. Lacking interest or curiosity; uninterested.
   
2. apathetic or indifferent.
   

Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/incurious"

Incurious lovers would then mean that Thai woman lack interest in the whole love process.

From personal experience I don't believe that they are lacking interest or curiosity. However, there ARE some real differences beween Thai women and western women when it comes to the whole love process... and I don't mean just sex. I believe that Thai women have been taught from a very early age to be conservative. You even find that with the most experienced bar girls who have had hundreds of lovers. You see that when a Thai woman comes to bed with the express purpose of making love. They wear a towel from the shower and don't take it off until they are under the covers. By and large, western women have no problem taking off their clothes and walking around naked in front of boyfriends or husbands. Go to any beach area where there are a lot of tourists. You will NEVER see a Thai gal walking around topless, even though a beach might be littered with naked Europeans. You seldom see Thai women wearing bikinis... even though they have great bodies.

Yes, there are differences, but the edges are getting blurry as more farangs and Thais intermingle on a semi-permanent basis.

[mark45y]

I think if we try to stay away from stereotyping _any_ group of people, we all can enjoy some really friendly and insightful discussion. Being someone who enjoys teasing myself, I understand that sometimes it's easy to say things that one doesn't really mean or the said thing can be misconstrued. Ironies aren't always appreciated by all people.

But back to the original topic -- Thai women in Thai-farang relationship -- we can't forget that the differences or conflicts in such a relationship has both gender and cultural dimensions. Because one is in a cross-cultural relationship doesn't mean that whatever the other person does can be explained by his/her culture. (I recently got a question from an American, I think, who asked me if the Thai woman who refused to be his GF officially but would stalk and interfere with any of his love interests "for fun", was behaving in a Thai way.)

Apart from extreme cases of psychopaths, male and female, who more or less act in similar ways across cultures, in some respects the difference between the mentally well adjusted women and men can be greater than the difference between Thai-ness and farang-ness. In my observation, many foreign men often jump to a conclusion that their Thai wives/GFs do this or that because "it's Thai culture". Is it? Or is it always? The differences between women and men exist and in full evidence in all cultures, and only add onto the cultural difference in cross-cultural relationships.

On the notion of relationship intimacy, there is probably a cultural difference between the Western and Eastern (Thai) ways. In the West, a couple is a unit of two individuals who share and are expected to share exclusive and intimate lives together--the two lovers have the physical as well as spiritual/intellectual bonding, with families and friends on the peripheries In the East, a couple is _not_ a unit of two individuals, living in exclusive bonding invariably independent from the larger circles of families and friends. The couple exist in a larger community intertwined with other types of familial and friendly relationships. Of course, there are exceptions, but by and large these are the patterns you can more or less count on. Problems arise when people who get in a cross-cultural relationship are unprepared for this type of cultural differences--or worse don't make an effort to understand it and suffering conflicts and unhappiness in the relationship as a result.

cheers,

The nature of the question, comparing Thai lovers to western lovers requires a stereotype answer. When noting the differences between Thai ness and Farang ness you are stereotyping. I wouldn’t worry to much about it. One has to make certain assumptions to understand any group of people.

I think you are not examining rural as opposed to metropolitan closely enough. Only a generation ago there was very little industrial activity in Thailand. The great majority of the society was rural. This was the case in America four generations ago.

America’s rural south has many commonalities with Thailand as would I imagine most rural societies do.

Thailand is still dominated by small scale agriculture. The nature of the family farm encourages family cooperation. As Thai society matures and family farms are taken over by large scale conglomerates the extended family will become less important.

As a western male becomes familiar with the Thai language he becomes amazed at the topics of discussion by the average Thai. The same thing happens when a man from a big city moves to a small town anywhere in the world. Rural people talk about food and family. The same old things over and over again. After the basic questions are answered about ones background nothing else fits in the scheme of rural conversation.

Education takes a couple of generations to kick in. My father had a college degree but it was in engineering and he was basically illiterate as far as history, literature or any of the subjects that make up a liberal education. My children on the other hand were asking questions at a young age that would have been taboo in my parents household.

The family farm in Thailand will disappear eventually. Industrialization will change the social mores of Thai society. The nuclear family unit will gain in importance and the extended family structure will change.

Enjoy the family values and rural society while you can. It will be gone soon enough.

[kaewmala]

Staying on topic... "INCURIOUS" - Definition... Adjective...

1. Lacking interest or curiosity; uninterested.
   
2. apathetic or indifferent.
   

Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/incurious"

Incurious lovers would then mean that Thai woman lack interest in the whole love process.

From personal experience I don't believe that they are lacking interest or curiosity. However, there ARE some real differences beween Thai women and western women when it comes to the whole love process... and I don't mean just sex. I believe that Thai women have been taught from a very early age to be conservative. You even find that with the most experienced bar girls who have had hundreds of lovers. You see that when a Thai woman comes to bed with the express purpose of making love. They wear a towel from the shower and don't take it off until they are under the covers. By and large, western women have no problem taking off their clothes and walking around naked in front of boyfriends or husbands. Go to any beach area where there are a lot of tourists. You will NEVER see a Thai gal walking around topless, even though a beach might be littered with naked Europeans. You seldom see Thai women wearing bikinis... even though they have great bodies.

Yes, there are differences, but the edges are getting blurry as more farangs and Thais intermingle on a semi-permanent basis.

Ian, glad you brought that up. I've been pondering a question for a while now. See, I've across some comments from western men (on some website or other) that it is "common" for Thai wives to lose interest in sex once they hit middle age. I wonder if there's any truth to that. Or if there is, is it really unique to Thai women. Is it a cultural thing, or a gender thing, or neither? Perhaps age has something to do with sex drive...

As for your example of a difference between western and Thai women. It's true that no right-thinking Thai woman (living in Thailand) would go au naturel in public. She'll be on the front page of the newspapers. The expectation of modesty (esp. from women, but also of men) is still much higher in Thailand. However, that's more cultural than personal (which, of course, is not unrelated to the cultural). Even a shy woman (of any nationality) can be sexually eager and curious (in her own way), I'd think.

I'm suspecting that general social attitude toward sex and the social expectation of male/female sexual behaviors play a role. From literature (classical or modern), or even the น้ำเน่า TV soaps, you can see quite clearly that Thai women (except that 'bad' นางร้าย, anti-heroines) are supposed to be the passive partner in a proper love affair. A นางเอก heroine is supposed to be pure and pristine, and sexually innocent (little different from the Victorian values). Now, whether that's really the case is neither here nor there. An average Thai woman has to play the game, to at least "appear" so -- like the nang-ek. Or she'll appear too "slutty."

So, yes, an average Thai female lover might still wear a towel to bed where her lover awaits, but does that translate to her being sexually incurious? Or her potential to lose interest when hitting middle age?

The whole "love process" to be would include activities and interaction between couple in a romantic relationship, and has a lot to do with the intensity and style of intimacy and intimacy, as I mentioned in a previous post, has its cultural dimension.

The original question about the level of curiosity among Thai women was more on the intellectual/spiritual curiosity, but now we've moved a bit to the sexual side of it (to fit the thread title).

[mark45y]

Staying on topic... "INCURIOUS" - Definition... Adjective...

1. Lacking interest or curiosity; uninterested.
   
2. apathetic or indifferent.
   

Retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/incurious"

Incurious lovers would then mean that Thai woman lack interest in the whole love process.

From personal experience I don't believe that they are lacking interest or curiosity. However, there ARE some real differences beween Thai women and western women when it comes to the whole love process... and I don't mean just sex. I believe that Thai women have been taught from a very early age to be conservative. You even find that with the most experienced bar girls who have had hundreds of lovers. You see that when a Thai woman comes to bed with the express purpose of making love. They wear a towel from the shower and don't take it off until they are under the covers. By and large, western women have no problem taking off their clothes and walking around naked in front of boyfriends or husbands. Go to any beach area where there are a lot of tourists. You will NEVER see a Thai gal walking around topless, even though a beach might be littered with naked Europeans. You seldom see Thai women wearing bikinis... even though they have great bodies.

Yes, there are differences, but the edges are getting blurry as more farangs and Thais intermingle on a semi-permanent basis.

If you search the net for old drawings of Thailand recorded by early tradesmen from France and Portugal, Thai women are mostly pictured topless. Seems the modesty thing only went into effect in the 1930’s. I ran across one government proclamation that mandated Thai women start wearing shirts as of 1935 or close to then. Personally my Thai partners stopped wearing towels after about 7 months.

I think in some cases the towels may be to hide body parts not considered TV perfect rather than modesty.

I find Thai beach wear is more determined by a desire not to tan. Not only are bikinis not worn but in most cases shirts and shorts worn over bathing suits.

[Huey]

I don't see Thai women being any more or less curious lovers than any other nationality. though less conventional more, exciting adventures in love making usually have to be initiated by the man, then once initiated I think Thai women are generally more open to give it a shot, than other nationalities I have experienced.

As far as the divide between rich and poor I don't think it much matters, and yes I can speak from experience.

[sbk]

Guys, if you will re-read the OP, she is generally not using the term "lovers' in the sexual sense. Cheers.

[kaewmala]

...

The nature of the question, comparing Thai lovers to western lovers requires a stereotype answer. When noting the differences between Thai ness and Farang ness you are stereotyping. I wouldn’t worry to much about it. One has to make certain assumptions to understand any group of people.

I think you are not examining rural as opposed to metropolitan closely enough. Only a generation ago there was very little industrial activity in Thailand. The great majority of the society was rural. This was the case in America four generations ago.

...

Enjoy the family values and rural society while you can. It will be gone soon enough.

True, we can't always avoid stereotypes -- human brains process in stereotypical, esp. when assessing people from other cultures. However, when I said "try to stay away from stereotyping" I meant stereotyping with prejudice: all farmers' daughters are uneducated and stupid or all hi-so women are spoiled, for example. That is counterproductive and doesn't get us anywhere.

As for examining rural vs. urban, I'm well aware of that (as anyone who has read my book could have have missed). But here I'm more eager to hear others' points of view.

And about the notion of modesty you brought up in your latest post, yes, indeed Thai people, including women, were topless not long ago. The idea of modesty jealously guarded by Thais in the past 60-70 years or so is more influenced by the western notion of modesty (through the command of Field Marshall Plaek Phibulsongkram - the graphic you posted was one of an official notice). The program to instill in Thai people the new notion of propriety and "Culture" initiated by... as we Thai call him, has been so wildly successful that, now most Thai people (especially those among the upper class and middle class, who have had more education, hence more official indoctrination) believe so strongly that the recently constructed and officially imposed cultural code of social propriety (and the Victorian prudishness that came with it) is authentically Thai.

Still, to use bare breasts as a parameter of a society's modesty, though drastic, can be a bit simplistic and misleading. Even when (central) Thai women were wearing only /phaa-thaeb/, a kind of loose band made from a long piece of cloth tied around their chest, the women had to live by some rules of modesty too. It's just that the notion of what's "modest" changes with time and place.

Now you see many Thai girls & women wearing revealing clothing that would have been scandalous twenty or fifteen years ago. But does that change the core values held by Thai women, who, I suspect, believe that a Thai woman must be a good wife and a good mother, and must be pure. Does that change the way they really think about their behavior, including sexual behavior, in their romantic relationship? Does their more revealing translate to a more sexually liberal view? Thing is, I don't know.

My second question in this thread was whether (some or many) Thai women have a tendency to lose interest when entering middle age (as some farang guy whose comment I read somewhere else some time ago suggested --and an implication was that this tendency was not expected from western women). I'm still waiting for answers, especially from Thai and expat women here.

[mark45y]

Thailand is an oral society and fashion is more a reaction to technology than morals. Perhaps a read of McLean’s “Peace and War in the Global Village” would be better than me explaining it here.

The world is turning tribal. Thailand really never left.

It is interesting to point out Phibun changed so much of Thai society in such a short time. We read here on Thai Visa volumes of posts that Thai society will never change or that it is very slow to change when in reality Thai society changed very dramatically in a very short period of time on many occasions. 1932 and again in 1939 and so on.

I would say and I feel most historians would agree that Thai people are very easily influenced both by internal and external forces. Mores and modesty are two areas which are very easy to track.

Perhaps I missed it but I don’t think you mentioned the influence of the Thai comics that teens and adults read. The ones with the dominant women beating up the little husbands all the time. I’m sure these are not hi so comics but I think they are well read and reflect a part of Thai relationships. I don’t get an image of a Thai women as being a quiet homemaker who is afraid of her male partner. In most cases in Thai homes I believe it is the female that controls the purse strings and with it the romance strings.

[IanForbes]

Perhaps I missed it but I don’t think you mentioned the influence of the Thai comics that teens and adults read. The ones with the dominant women beating up the little husbands all the time. I’m sure these are not hi so comics but I think they are well read and reflect a part of Thai relationships. I don’t get an image of a Thai women as being a quiet homemaker who is afraid of her male partner. In most cases in Thai homes I believe it is the female that controls the purse strings and with it the romance strings.

I've noticed those comics also, Mark. I'm not sure what to say about them. I've also seen the steriotyping in the typical Thai soap operas that the OP mentions.

In a FEW Thai households I've been involved with it WAS the mother who ruled the roost, and the husbands just stayed out of sight. But, none of those husbands had a job. A lot depends on the situation. If the Thai man worked at a good paying job then it was him that ruled the roost and made the important decisions, so I think it's just the sake of who makes the money.

But, getting back to the OP's question about older Thai women losing interest in sex, then I believe it's been an on going problem from the start... just like any marriage anywhere in the world. I doubt if it is unique to Thailand. A LOT would have to do with how good the two spouses were at love making in the first place. And, I'm not just talking about the actual sex act. Love making is a WHOLE LOT MORE than just that. Love is about being open with each other, and to each others needs and wishes. The old saying in the Bible holds a lot of truth here... As thee shall sew, so shall thee receive.

[seri thai]

I was just joking, inferring I find intelligent women a zillion times sexier than not intelligent, unlike the men who only date farmers daughters and get offended thinking that a woman with a brain might have more to offer.

How could you say such a terrible thing. My wife was a farmers daughter. Sure she dropped out of school at 16 and went to work in a beauty shop. But by 17 she owned the shop and at 18 owned three. And then she married a cop. At 20 they had three businesses and a large rice farm. He was involved in some illegal things such as running stolen tractors over the border and selling them for cash and there were rumors that he killed some people but nevertheless they had a good life.

When I met her at 25 she was very sexy. She did not have much intellectual curiosity but she kept the house clean. I think she picked me because she thought I was a step up from the cop. She said he beat her up and she didn’t like the rumors of him killing people. She was so sexy she had an affair with my best friend. I worked offshore and was gone a lot.

What does this have to do with this thread? My wife wasn’t Thai. She was a blond haired blue eyed Texan. It is not just Thai women who are incurious.

And I don’t think farmers daughter’s are unintelligent but in a lot of cases, street (or field) smarts replace institutes of higher learning. Now, if you were a farmer you might really understand the sexiness of a farmers daughter. Also if the OP was a farmer she might understand more about the rural woman’s world view.

Do you ever read the guys who post on Thai Visa who are farmers in Thailand? They seem very well adjusted. Perhaps incuriousness is not a Thai thing. Perhaps it is a rural thing.

Except for the fact that my ex wife was tall and blond and blue eyed she was just like a lady from Issan. Matter of fact her chili was hotter than most I have eaten in Thailand and she wouldn’t flinch at cooking road kill, robins, possum or any manner of wild thing that the boys shot or trapped. Rural parts of the American southwest are about 100 years behind the rest of the country in many cultural aspects. I suspect the same is true of Thailand and one of the reasons that there is such a dichotomy in current politics.

Excellent-Perceptive-Clever. -Best post for a long time

[seri thai]

I think if we try to stay away from stereotyping _any_ group of people, we all can enjoy some really friendly and insightful discussion. Being someone who enjoys teasing myself, I understand that sometimes it's easy to say things that one doesn't really mean or the said thing can be misconstrued. Ironies aren't always appreciated by all people.

But back to the original topic -- Thai women in Thai-farang relationship -- we can't forget that the differences or conflicts in such a relationship has both gender and cultural dimensions. Because one is in a cross-cultural relationship doesn't mean that whatever the other person does can be explained by his/her culture. (I recently got a question from an American, I think, who asked me if the Thai woman who refused to be his GF officially but would stalk and interfere with any of his love interests "for fun", was behaving in a Thai way.)

Apart from extreme cases of psychopaths, male and female, who more or less act in similar ways across cultures, in some respects the difference between the mentally well adjusted women and men can be greater than the difference between Thai-ness and farang-ness. In my observation, many foreign men often jump to a conclusion that their Thai wives/GFs do this or that because "it's Thai culture". Is it? Or is it always? The differences between women and men exist and in full evidence in all cultures, and only add onto the cultural difference in cross-cultural relationships.

On the notion of relationship intimacy, there is probably a cultural difference between the Western and Eastern (Thai) ways. In the West, a couple is a unit of two individuals who share and are expected to share exclusive and intimate lives together--the two lovers have the physical as well as spiritual/intellectual bonding, with families and friends on the peripheries In the East, a couple is _not_ a unit of two individuals, living in exclusive bonding invariably independent from the larger circles of families and friends. The couple exist in a larger community intertwined with other types of familial and friendly relationships. Of course, there are exceptions, but by and large these are the patterns you can more or less count on. Problems arise when people who get in a cross-cultural relationship are unprepared for this type of cultural differences--or worse don't make an effort to understand it and suffering conflicts and unhappiness in the relationship as a result.

cheers,

The nature of the question, comparing Thai lovers to western lovers requires a stereotype answer. When noting the differences between Thai ness and Farang ness you are stereotyping. I wouldn’t worry to much about it. One has to make certain assumptions to understand any group of people.

I think you are not examining rural as opposed to metropolitan closely enough. Only a generation ago there was very little industrial activity in Thailand. The great majority of the society was rural. This was the case in America four generations ago.

America’s rural south has many commonalities with Thailand as would I imagine most rural societies do.

Thailand is still dominated by small scale agriculture. The nature of the family farm encourages family cooperation. As Thai society matures and family farms are taken over by large scale conglomerates the extended family will become less important.

As a western male becomes familiar with the Thai language he becomes amazed at the topics of discussion by the average Thai. The same thing happens when a man from a big city moves to a small town anywhere in the world. Rural people talk about food and family. The same old things over and over again. After the basic questions are answered about ones background nothing else fits in the scheme of rural conversation.

Education takes a couple of generations to kick in. My father had a college degree but it was in engineering and he was basically illiterate as far as history, literature or any of the subjects that make up a liberal education. My children on the other hand were asking questions at a young age that would have been taboo in my parents household.

The family farm in Thailand will disappear eventually. Industrialization will change the social mores of Thai society. The nuclear family unit will gain in importance and the extended family structure will change.

Enjoy the family values and rural society while you can. It will be gone soon enough.

Another perceptive viewpoint. I'm certainly understanding a lot more about my relationship here.

I would venture that the larger proportion of expats on here have relationships with girls from a rural background (who find a fahrang relationship to be more "socially equitable") Ours is definitely a mix of liberal and rural education and thats where the difficulties/differences lie, in interests and priorities. I for one, do attempt to take on the asian family ethics and customs, although difficult for me, because I came here originally because of my fascination with an alien (and disappearing) culture. It is not easy for people of different cultures (and I'm saying liberal education vs rural education, not western/asian to adopt the opposing values.

I'm posting here because I can't have this kind of conversation with my wife (something I miss!) I would have had to marry a hi-so urban girl for that and put up with a pekinese mutt and trips to the Emporium. As it is I'm out in the boonies with wife, 3 kids, jungle, mountains rivers, trees and the internet to keep me intellectually challenged!

Thanks for sparking this off Kaewmala!

[seri thai]

I think if we try to stay away from stereotyping _any_ group of people, we all can enjoy some really friendly and insightful discussion. Being someone who enjoys teasing myself, I understand that sometimes it's easy to say things that one doesn't really mean or the said thing can be misconstrued. Ironies aren't always appreciated by all people.

But back to the original topic -- Thai women in Thai-farang relationship -- we can't forget that the differences or conflicts in such a relationship has both gender and cultural dimensions. Because one is in a cross-cultural relationship doesn't mean that whatever the other person does can be explained by his/her culture. (I recently got a question from an American, I think, who asked me if the Thai woman who refused to be his GF officially but would stalk and interfere with any of his love interests "for fun", was behaving in a Thai way.)

Apart from extreme cases of psychopaths, male and female, who more or less act in similar ways across cultures, in some respects the difference between the mentally well adjusted women and men can be greater than the difference between Thai-ness and farang-ness. In my observation, many foreign men often jump to a conclusion that their Thai wives/GFs do this or that because "it's Thai culture". Is it? Or is it always? The differences between women and men exist and in full evidence in all cultures, and only add onto the cultural difference in cross-cultural relationships.

On the notion of relationship intimacy, there is probably a cultural difference between the Western and Eastern (Thai) ways. In the West, a couple is a unit of two individuals who share and are expected to share exclusive and intimate lives together--the two lovers have the physical as well as spiritual/intellectual bonding, with families and friends on the peripheries In the East, a couple is _not_ a unit of two individuals, living in exclusive bonding invariably independent from the larger circles of families and friends. The couple exist in a larger community intertwined with other types of familial and friendly relationships. Of course, there are exceptions, but by and large these are the patterns you can more or less count on. Problems arise when people who get in a cross-cultural relationship are unprepared for this type of cultural differences--or worse don't make an effort to understand it and suffering conflicts and unhappiness in the relationship as a result.

cheers,

The nature of the question, comparing Thai lovers to western lovers requires a stereotype answer. When noting the differences between Thai ness and Farang ness you are stereotyping. I wouldn’t worry to much about it. One has to make certain assumptions to understand any group of people.

I think you are not examining rural as opposed to metropolitan closely enough. Only a generation ago there was very little industrial activity in Thailand. The great majority of the society was rural. This was the case in America four generations ago.

America’s rural south has many commonalities with Thailand as would I imagine most rural societies do.

Thailand is still dominated by small scale agriculture. The nature of the family farm encourages family cooperation. As Thai society matures and family farms are taken over by large scale conglomerates the extended family will become less important.

As a western male becomes familiar with the Thai language he becomes amazed at the topics of discussion by the average Thai. The same thing happens when a man from a big city moves to a small town anywhere in the world. Rural people talk about food and family. The same old things over and over again. After the basic questions are answered about ones background nothing else fits in the scheme of rural conversation.

Education takes a couple of generations to kick in. My father had a college degree but it was in engineering and he was basically illiterate as far as history, literature or any of the subjects that make up a liberal education. My children on the other hand were asking questions at a young age that would have been taboo in my parents household.

The family farm in Thailand will disappear eventually. Industrialization will change the social mores of Thai society. The nuclear family unit will gain in importance and the extended family structure will change.

Enjoy the family values and rural society while you can. It will be gone soon enough.

Another perceptive viewpoint. I'm certainly understanding a lot more about my relationship here.

I would venture that the larger proportion of expats on here have relationships with girls from a rural background (who find a fahrang relationship to be more "socially equitable") Ours is definitely a mix of liberal and rural education and thats where the difficulties/differences lie, in interests and priorities. I for one, do attempt to take on the asian family ethics and customs, although difficult for me, because I came here originally because of my fascination with an alien (and disappearing) culture. It is not easy for people of different cultures (and I'm saying liberal education vs rural education, not western/asian to adopt the opposing values.

I'm posting here because I can't have this kind of conversation with my wife (something I miss!) I would have had to marry a hi-so urban girl for that and put up with a pekinese mutt and trips to the Emporium. As it is I'm out in the boonies with wife, 3 kids, jungle, mountains rivers, trees and the internet to keep me intellectually challenged!

Thanks for sparking this off Kaewmala!

In fairness I should add my wife reads widely, has a university education and comes from a middle class (emphasis on rural) chinese thai family. Like a lot of women she has no interest in politics and prefers "Hello" magazine to the "Economist" (As if it was available ) Her English language skills are fairly fluent but we often have misunderstandings on more complex issues. (I get by in Taxi Thai but don't use it at home).

I fear I may have digressed from the orinal question but I'm contributing to the cross-cultural relations pot as it seems interesting

Edited March 9, 2010 by seri thai

[sbk]

I think its difficult for western women to answer these questions for the simple reason that female - female relationships are faaar different things than male female. As my dad said, you never know what goes on in another man's head or another man's bed.

I know what women say to me. This does not mean I know what goes in the intimacy of their relationships.

[manjara]

Interesting, as I was having an argument with my Thai wife last night (about money, as I am taking a lower paid contract and I stupidly said WE would have to be more careful with money, which she immediately interpreted as 'YOU spend too much money')

She said that she never asked me about my life - house, car, salary, ex-gf, ex-wives etc because she did not want to make me feel uncomfortable with her. She never asks how much I make and says it is up to me how much I give her to spend. Of course she doesn't want to know because she does not want to have any responsibility for what she does. She believed for a long time that I had a wife back in the UK, but never asked me directly (I don't and was never married). I think she was/is afraid to know too much if there is something that will affect her.

Not knowing gives her freedom to do what she wants to do. She can buy anything she wants, because it is up to me to refuse to pay and say we don't have enough money for it; she can feel morally ok, because she didn't know that I had a wife and kids in another country (I don't); she can feel more secure in herself because she didn't know that all my ex-gfs were blonde, graduates with high paying jobs (only some were!

I don't know if it is the same for other Thai women, but for my wife I think she doesn't ask about my past because she thinks she doesn't 'measure up', therefore knowing will just make her feel inadequate and perhaps she thinks it will make me compare past and current situation. Of course I try and reassure her, but she is smart and can see the huge differences between her background as a poor farmers daughter with no education and her perceived notion of my background as an incredibly wealthy upper class academic (actually just middle-class, middle of the road degree, not at all wealthy)

[kaewmala]

Seri Thai, I see a lot of (originally) "non hi-so" women in the Emporium! But I see your point. Good on you that you're enjoying nature in the boonies with the wife and kids.

I think its difficult for western women to answer these questions for the simple reason that female - female relationships are faaar different things than male female. As my dad said, you never know what goes on in another man's head or another man's bed.

I know what women say to me. This does not mean I know what goes in the intimacy of their relationships.

True as it concerns behavior of Thai women, though in this case the fatherly advice might be revised to "you never what goes on in another (Thai) woman's head or another (Thai) woman's bed."

Regarding mark45y's comments on the world turning tribal but "Thailand has never left", that's an interesting point. It is very true, esp. in politics in the world has turn once again more tribal. But at the same time, we also have an ever larger number of people who transcend tribes--the global citizens, and these include foreigners living in Thailand and more Thai people as well. These cosmopolitan people can live anywhere in any culture (or at least try to) and feel comfortable in a multi-cultural environment.

The label 'tribal' may fit well most Thais, esp. those with little exposure to the outside world, or those who simply have a very nationalistic, provincial attitude. They see things through a tribal lens. A good test would be, in a cross-cultural relationship, say, does a Thai wife, see her farang husband first as a farang who is her husband, or as a man who is her husband who happens to be a farang? The same tribal test applies to the husband. Does a farang husband first see his wife as a Thai (woman), or a woman/wife who happens to be Thai?

So, apart from the Thai tribe(s), we may also have at least one foreign tribe penetrating our tribal land, the Isaan hinterland, for example.

IMO, in a cross-cultural relationship in which the couple are more cosmopolitan or have a less tribal attitude, they tend to see each other as a human being first, or partner in a relationship first, before a representation of another culture. I could be wrong but I feel they have potentially fewer problems culturally. Of course, they still face normal couple problems like everyone else, but cultural assumptions and misunderstanding can get in the way of real intimacy.

But then again, this could just be me, as I prefer a more equal, equitable kind of relationship. Some Thai-farang couples may operate on another kind of arrangement and do just fine, as long as each gets what s/he wants.

So we return to the original point - whether some Thai women are incurious (lovers, partners). Perhaps some people just don't "think too much" and simply live their lives. Some Thai women may not be extremely curious to know too much about their husbands/BFs, for various reasons already discussed. But on the flip side, there are more than a few foreign husbands/BFs of Thai women who are no less tribal than their Thai wives/GFs (if what they say on the various boards is any indication). When a farang husband/BF says "My Thai wife does this and that" etc., or "Thai women" think cleaning dishes is a woman's job, it makes me wonder what really goes on in his head.

[mark45y]

I think its difficult for western women to answer these questions for the simple reason that female - female relationships are faaar different things than male female. As my dad said, you never know what goes on in another man's head or another man's bed.

I know what women say to me. This does not mean I know what goes in the intimacy of their relationships.

I think what you are saying is, women don’t talk about their sex lives, at least middle aged women. I am understanding middle age to mean 40 to 60 years of age.

Your statement being the case the only way the OP will get the answer is asking men.

There is a lot of statistical data on the net to answer the question for western women but I have never seen any for Thailand.

I know a number of Thai men over 50 and none of them ever talk about having sex with their wives. Although they do talk about having sex.

I know a few expats who are married to women over 50. They do not talk about having sex with their wives either.

I know a few Thai women over 40 and they seem somewhat interested in having sex but mostly in my opinion it is the women in their 30’s who are most anxious to pursue a new or extracurricular relationship.

I have been to Thai clubs in Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai and on the Eastern seaboard and there are women over 40 in attendance and available for conversation and dancing and socializing.

Women in their 50’s keep asking me if I want to take a vacation to go to a forest Wat and meditate for a couple of weeks and search for the real meaning of Buddhism or something like that. I don’t know if this is a reflection of what they really want or if I come across in person as a highly spiritual being. I somehow doubt the latter.

I don’t know if the onset of menopause is earlier or later in Thailand than in the west. Perhaps the OP has some data on that.

Personally I prefer women over 40 but they are a numerically smaller group than women in their 30’s and hence more difficult to establish a meaningful relationship with.

[kaewmala]

Interesting, as I was having an argument with my Thai wife last night (about money, as I am taking a lower paid contract and I stupidly said WE would have to be more careful with money, which she immediately interpreted as 'YOU spend too much money')

She said that she never asked me about my life - house, car, salary, ex-gf, ex-wives etc because she did not want to make me feel uncomfortable with her. She never asks how much I make and says it is up to me how much I give her to spend. Of course she doesn't want to know because she does not want to have any responsibility for what she does. She believed for a long time that I had a wife back in the UK, but never asked me directly (I don't and was never married). I think she was/is afraid to know too much if there is something that will affect her.

Not knowing gives her freedom to do what she wants to do. She can buy anything she wants, because it is up to me to refuse to pay and say we don't have enough money for it; she can feel morally ok, because she didn't know that I had a wife and kids in another country (I don't); she can feel more secure in herself because she didn't know that all my ex-gfs were blonde, graduates with high paying jobs (only some were!

I don't know if it is the same for other Thai women, but for my wife I think she doesn't ask about my past because she thinks she doesn't 'measure up', therefore knowing will just make her feel inadequate and perhaps she thinks it will make me compare past and current situation. Of course I try and reassure her, but she is smart and can see the huge differences between her background as a poor farmers daughter with no education and her perceived notion of my background as an incredibly wealthy upper class academic (actually just middle-class, middle of the road degree, not at all wealthy)

If you remove her being Thai part, would she still have acted the same way? Insecurity is a normal infliction in a relationship, cross-cultural or otherwise.

Here, in your case there could be a social class and education barrier (or not) that has influenced in the way your wife has dealt with the relationship. It is true that many Thai women still expect the husband to be the provider of the family, especially those who don't have gainful employment. But I'd expect that in the case where the income is reduced the wife would be flexible about spending it. To be inflexible about the amount of stipend regardless of how much income the husband is making would suggest that this is a personality issue, rather than a cultural issue.

[sbk]

Rural Thai women don't talk about sex with a foreign woman, they ask me loads of other questions about farangs, but not that particular one. So, no I dont' think that makes them incurious. Just sensible

[mark45y]

Rural Thai women don't talk about sex with a foreign woman, they ask me loads of other questions about farangs, but not that particular one. So, no I dont' think that makes them incurious. Just sensible

That’s what I thought. So I will take a risk and answer the question. I just asked my Thai lady who has lived with me for the past year or so. She goes home to Petchabun 2 or 3 times a year where she owns land and a home. She was raised in a farming community but worked in Bangkok for 9 years in a business where she never learned to speak English. So she has two different circles of female friends, one city and one rural. I asked her the question in Thai and she responded to me in Thai.

This is what she said. 1. The ladies who work on the farm asked me what it is like to live with a Falang who is 25 years older than me. 2. The ladies who asked me were all in their 30’s or 40’s. 3. The ladies asked me how many times a month we have sex. 4. They asked me if the Falang was good in bed and did he perform oral sex. 5. They asked me how big was his sex organ. 6. They asked me if his sex organ was hard. 7. My friends in Bangkok do not ask me anything because they don’t want to know a Farang.

As an afterthought she said, “I think the lady farmers ask me because they think Falang is not a person, not a normal person. “My khun, my po gut tee”, is what she said.

I was a little surprised that she answered so quickly and so adamantly that the ladies she knew in Bangkok had no interest in a Falang. I would have not guessed that. I would have thought the opposite.

[kaewmala]

Rural Thai women don't talk about sex with a foreign woman, they ask me loads of other questions about farangs, but not that particular one. So, no I dont' think that makes them incurious. Just sensible

That’s what I thought. ...

I was a little surprised that she answered so quickly and so adamantly that the ladies she knew in Bangkok had no interest in a Falang. I would have not guessed that. I would have thought the opposite.

I believe rural women are a lot more open about sex (to each other) than city (middle class) women. They can be quite rowdy together. More educated, urban middle class Thai women are more conservative (due to more conservative upbringing & conservative education), though I believe at least some do talk about it among close friends.

Interesting what she said about they (her rural girlfriends) think of a 'farang' not as a person, or not as a normal person -- kinda confirms my "tribal" theory. But what exactly is the "khun" and "po kut tee" that she was talking about? I can't conceive of the words in Thai.

[PattayaParent]

This incuriousity is maybe not a phenomenon only bewtween Thai women and Farang men.

I had an ex Thai gf that did not know the occupation of her Thai husband (ex when I met her) or where he worked and they had been together long enough to have 2 children, the oldest of which was 5 at the time.

I thought that very strange.

[Schooner]

After reading the replies, the answer should be obvious....they don't ask because they don't want hours and hours of droning self righteous analysis of why you think things are the way they are.

What Thai women want to know is are you up to the task of providing and protecting them....that's it. If you are than that's all they want to know.

Most farang I know are so caught up in their own self conscious web of self-doubt and fear that anything that comes out of their mouths will create fear in those who depend on them.

My thai wife has asked me several times about my sexual history and I always reply that she is my first and I learned everything from reading books. She asks, but don't fool yourself into thinking that she wants the truth. Everything that she asks me is aimed at recieving reinforcement of my undying love for her and her only. I am happy to oblige because when I do this consistantly she gets the power she needs to be the best wife I ever had. It's not rocket science, but it works and it has only taken me 55 years to figure it out.

Women ask questions to reaffirm what they already believe and that is true of all women. They really don't want to know your history with anyone else even though they might ask during a insecure moment.

Another thing that we farang forget is that generally Thai women like to live in the moment. They don't analyze things to death like we do and good for them. We can learn something from them.

[mark45y]

After reading the replies, the answer should be obvious....they don't ask because they don't want hours and hours of droning self righteous analysis of why you think things are the way they are.

What Thai women want to know is are you up to the task of providing and protecting them....that's it. If you are than that's all they want to know.

Most farang I know are so caught up in their own self conscious web of self-doubt and fear that anything that comes out of their mouths will create fear in those who depend on them.

My thai wife has asked me several times about my sexual history and I always reply that she is my first and I learned everything from reading books. She asks, but don't fool yourself into thinking that she wants the truth. Everything that she asks me is aimed at recieving reinforcement of my undying love for her and her only. I am happy to oblige because when I do this consistantly she gets the power she needs to be the best wife I ever had. It's not rocket science, but it works and it has only taken me 55 years to figure it out.

Women ask questions to reaffirm what they already believe and that is true of all women. They really don't want to know your history with anyone else even though they might ask during a insecure moment.

Another thing that we farang forget is that generally Thai women like to live in the moment. They don't analyze things to death like we do and good for them. We can learn something from them.

Bearing in mind that the OP is a woman and reading her posts your argument makes no sense.

I doubt if you are qualified to make statements about the what is true of all women.

Nor do I think you are qualified to state what we farang forget or don’t forget.

[bina]

i feel that country women in general (that is, agriculturallly country style) would be a bit more 'rowdy' or open about sex then city people: its obvious why, and its nothing to do with thai or anglo... my very seemingly prudish 50+ ex sis in law is lutheran finnish, owever, her take on 'sex' is more open since she had cows as a child: sex/mating, birth, size of sex organs, its all part of dealing with animals. a person who daily has dealt with livestock/poultry or whatever automatically sees things in a more practical and open light: the first thing i do when i see a male animal (goat, horse, whatever) is check the size of the testes since in animals there is a direct correlation between fertility and size (not lenght, size of testes themselves).

and therefore, it is less 'taboo' to discuss/make jokes about. anyone watching morlum and mor lum sing has seen the giant phallus acts with old ladies (men dresses as exagerated old ladies with boobs down to their knees, ets) cannot miss that bawdiness = openess. but there is a big difference between openess about sex in general, and in personal intimicy and a discussion of what he/she wants in bed or personal questions that are beyond daily living activities. also, linguistically, some languages have less descriptive terms for feelings, some languages are more flexible in describing psychological feelings (the reason why german is so good for psychology when using terms that there is no way to describe in one word : like gestalt).

hebrew, for instance, doesnt allow for most feelings; we revert to flowery biblical phrasing for simple things like the difference between love and like. and brotherly love. the term for two people being together in hebrew is actually in translation, meaning just : pairing/pairs. another word for finding a partner is not 'partner' but 'mate'... everything is also fairly 'agricultural' in description also. for certain things, hebrew reverts to anglo words to get the perfect description.

i find that i, because of lack of more complex language skills in thai, cannot express abstracts to my husband. i can say i am angry, hurt, turned on, tired.. but i have a more difficult time expressing things that in hebrew or in english i can explain ... its not that i dont know the words so much as im not sure the meanings behind them are the same in my understanding and his.

bina

israel