Avenue Shopping Plaza

[chillibilly]

...I often wonder if owners of businesses or even of huge construction projects ever do any research before they invest in a location. The design of the Avenue shopping center on 2nd Rd. is a great design with its open air shopping modules surrounded by trees and natural walkways...BUT wouldn't researchers know that tourists would have difficulty walking across the street from the beach area in order to visit the place????? And even with driving it isn't exactly easy to get to (compared to other shopping areas). Great design..but located in the wrong section of the city. Unfortunately most of the businesses (except those facing 2nd street) have left and the place has become another complex (already) that has turned into an empty ghost town. And with the opening of Central, it will only get worse. The manager of the Avenue (from Bangkok -- of course) has created the idea of a night market, which is to draw people in for business but I doubt it has helped the shops located in the back since one can barely walk through the blocked walkways. True, California WOW is the only business that draws customers to the back of the complex...and (unfortunately) Villa Market is also seeing a drop in business. Last night I went to see a movie at the theater complex and it was empty; meanwhile maintenance of the cinema has been neglected-- sink faucets in the men's bathroom not working already... paint off the walls in the hallways... This complex is only three years old and it is already being neglected. Maybe the Bangkok owners of the Avenue can change it into another condo complex...I know!!!! a complex full of tailor shops, beer bars, souvineer "boutiques", massage parlors, and Seven Elevens --now, that is an unique idea!

[farangpattaya]

IMHO it's not the location but more the fact that one year after the Avenue's opening Central Festival Beach Road opened. Of course, a matter of preplanning.

[popshirt]

Villa Market should consider moving to Jomtien Complex.

[thaimate]

The bigest mistake was making it open air.

[PattayaParent]

I think the demographic of persons living on that side of the road is greater than living on the opposite side so crossing the road is not really a factor.

And I like that it's open air, I preferred the Central Festival Plaza that way before they closed it up and airconditioned it.

But sadly there's nothing there that I really need and I usually only visit Shenannigan's or the cinema rarely.

[foxxx]

i like the open air concept.

i think their issue is the lack of drawcards.

cinema, villa market, and a gym are a good foundation, need need to fill that 2nd floor with restaurants or something that people will go out of their way to get to.

there's just not enough reason to go there over another place.

as much as i like the open air style, i think the design is bad, the actual shopfronts are hidden way at the back and around corners, could have been a better design and still keeping in with open air.

Australia does it well, some of the biggest shopping centers in australia are all 70/30 open air and are very popular.

but who knows eh? everyone's an expert...

Edited March 4, 2010 by foxxx

[123ace]

Hindsight is wonderful.

When the land was purchased for The Avneue the Central group had not purcahsed their new site yet, and there was already a central in Pattaya and on the same side of the road. At the time there was no reason to necessarily assume they would open a second Central. The original mix with california wow, the cinema the relocation of the Irish bar from over the road etc was very good and complemented Royal Garden across the road quite well, which at the time had some of the highest retail rents and was at full tenant capacity.

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

Yeah, I think Villa, the bowling alley, the movie theater and Shenanigan's are doing ok. Au Bon Pain moved from RGP to the Avenue. McDonalds I think is suffering a little, as they opened a new one on 2nd Road up by the new Central shopping center. With Au Bon Pain and McCafe, there wasn't much sense in having 4 other coffee shops in the center. I like Shabu Shabu above Shenanigan's, but the other restaurants have been a dismal failure. I don't think it has anything to do with it being an outdoor mall. Actually, other than the food court, I don't see a lot of business being transacted in the new Central shopping center, either. There's maybe a little too much retail saturation in Pattaya, and the malls don't offer any special deals. Clothes can be found much cheaper elsewhere where the retailers don't have to pay outrageous lease rent.

[mike37]

i think i would make a nice upmarket bar complex. Something like Nana plaza, but upmarket.

[moo9]

Reasons for failure:

Open air

Probably very high rental payments

Central's competition came much later, when The Avenue was almost on the decline.

Lesson to learn:

There are not enough First Class Tourists who are willed to pay the food prices etc.

A nice new Beer Bar complex would have been better, as the location itself is ideal.

Cheers

[Jingthing]

A contrarian view here. I think the problem is that the businesses aren't good and unique enough. Put in something like a Sunrise Taqueria from Bangkok in there and some others of that not yet available in Pattaya types of places and the foot traffic will come. Don't mention the ridiculously overpriced Irish/Mexican food they already have there.

[basjke]

i think i would make a nice upmarket bar complex. Something like Nana plaza, but upmarket.

Excactly,a beer bar that is what Pattaya needs.Strange that nobody else had that idea yet.

[Pattaya46]

There are not enough First Class Tourists who are willed to pay the food prices etc.

Maybe then can have a second chance with all the new condos and hotels developments on Soi 15 on the back of The Avenue ?

City Garden, The Avenue Residence, The Urban, ...

[BSJ]

My only question is regarding the foundations of the Avenue - have they been built to the same standard as the foundation's at Central?

[Utterlyuseful]

Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that this concept of open air would never work in Thailand….many people go to shopping areas just for the aircon when it’s hot and humid and when it is raining forget it……that covers around 90% of the year, so the 10% when it is cool and dry…well, do the math!

[Pattaya46]

My only question is regarding the foundations of the Avenue

- have they been built to the same standard as the foundation's at Central?

Foundation at Central was a fabulous daily spectacle during a few months. It was an impressive work and - as far as I know but I am not a specialist - I did not see anything wrong in the process ??

Now why do you want compare The Avenue to Central ? And how could you ?

The Avenue is only a 4 floors building when Central with Hilton hotel is at least 30 floors high !

[123ace]

Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that this concept of open air would never work in Thailand….many people go to shopping areas just for the aircon when it’s hot and humid and when it is raining forget it……that covers around 90% of the year, so the 10% when it is cool and dry…well, do the math!

It might help if you were perhaps at least a trainee rocket scientist, as the owner of avenue is a very strong local retail developer with at least 20 existing open air centres in Thailand, mostly Bangkok. So the concept is proven to work.

The only reason it is floundering now is because central opened an enourmous direct competitor so close with a broader and more comprensive offering. You will notice the decline in occupancy at RGP since Central opened, it is due to the same issues, although I love the easy parking now at RGP!

[PhilHarries]

Well the bar complex might just work. The problem with most of Pattaya bars is you have to tangle with the road traffic getting from one to another. But if they had a good few in a place like the Avenue it might just take off. It can't do much worse than it is anyway.

I know walking street is pedestrianised night times but it's a cr@p hole. Every time I'm back in Pattaya I make an effort to go down WS for an evening. By the time I get sat down with a beer I've remembered why I don't go down there.

[britmaveric]

Another Beer Garden would help....

[basjke]

Well the bar complex might just work. The problem with most of Pattaya bars is you have to tangle with the road traffic getting from one to another. But if they had a good few in a place like the Avenue it might just take off. It can't do much worse than it is anyway.

I know walking street is pedestrianised night times but it's a cr@p hole. Every time I'm back in Pattaya I make an effort to go down WS for an evening. By the time I get sat down with a beer I've remembered why I don't go down there.

I assume you forget that they teared down a barcomplex with boxing ring and everything in place to build the Avenue.It was a money loser at that time.

[thaimate]

Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that this concept of open air would never work in Thailand….many people go to shopping areas just for the aircon when it’s hot and humid and when it is raining forget it……that covers around 90% of the year, so the 10% when it is cool and dry…well, do the math!

It might help if you were perhaps at least a trainee rocket scientist, as the owner of avenue is a very strong local retail developer with at least 20 existing open air centres in Thailand, mostly Bangkok. So the concept is proven to work.

The only reason it is floundering now is because central opened an enourmous direct competitor so close with a broader and more comprensive offering. You will notice the decline in occupancy at RGP since Central opened, it is due to the same issues, although I love the easy parking now at RGP!

Its not floundering because central opened ,it was already on its knees,central just knocked it out,as a previous poster said ,open air doesnt work in a tourist town ,people who have been out all day want to be in the cool, most of the restaurants closed within 6 months ,although i think its a nice place we never use it ,shenanigans is expensive ,California wow is a rip off and villa market is ok for a few bits and pieces but by and large is to expensive for locals Thai or farang.

[sharecropper]

While we are on the subject of being badly located across Second Road, does anyone think D2 is also a really badly located bit of high end real estate?

I have two friends who have never been to pattaya before, who saw the fit-out of D2 on the internet and wanted to stay there, but knowing what they like I advised them to go to the Dusit or the Sheraton instead, unless they wanted to stay in their hotel 24:7.

If they made it across Second Road and then walked down Yamato or Soi PO to that scrag end of beach at the bottom, I know they would have been severely traumatised (them being gentle souls).

So I wonder why they built D2 where they did?

[TheWalkingMan]

I think that The Avenue was doomed from the start.

1 - Open air in a tourist area. Sure tourists enjoy warm weather, but they also enjoy strolling around in air conditioned comfort.

2 - The wrong side of the street.

3 - No unique tenants. Why stroll around and get baked by the sun when just down the street is air condition heaven.

4 - Some overpriced shops. Did anyone every take a look at the prices in Orange By The Sea?

And now...

1 - Many shops have closed down which has created the problem of nothing to see there so why go there.

2 - Unwillingness to lower the rents.

3 - Unwillingness to capitalize on the nightlife reputation of the city.

4 - The night market has cut into the revenue of some of the remaining tenants by blocking the pathways.

The future...

Either it will be on life support forever or the owner's will admit to their poor planning and move towards some type of revenue earning nightlife shops. I really do not see any other way for the place to survive as it is now. Maybe they will tear it down and put up an upscale guest house. That would be a huge hit as it is just about in the middle of everything.

TheWalkingMan

[123ace]

If the avenue has to change its profile downward to be viable i think this will be a significant and sad indicator for pattaya as it may prove that at least for now there is no high end retail opportunity. RGP is on the decline and Central's monopoly just seems to be unstoppable.

[Jingthing]

There are enough beer/sex bar outlets. It would indeed be tragic if the avenue becomes yet another palace of whoredom. However, I still blame the entrepreneurs. They aren't trying hard enough in my view. Pattaya indeed can only support so much hiso crap. I never expected Orangerie to make it. However, there is a sweet spot that COULD make it here, but it would involve being very creative and taking risks other than cookie cutter copying. There is lots of money here. Just figure out what people want and offer it at a price they are happy to pay.

[britmaveric]

^I think there is room for all the above, bars, beer gardens, restaurants and shopping!

[Jingthing]

^I think there is room for all the above, bars, beer gardens, restaurants and shopping!

I agree about the beer garden but I think they are correct to ban sex biz bars there. That would devalue the whole place. There really is enough of that all over town. Why does it have to be everywhere?

Here's an example. There is some kind of crappy "New York" chain deli in there now (if it is still open). I know they don't do much business, and no wonder, it is crap. Now if a serious entrepreneur opened a REAL New York/American style deli with real quality offerings at a moderate place, that would be a destination place for all of Thailand. Again, the business operators are too lazy, they don't try hard enough, and then blame the bad economy. BS. There is a market for good stuff at a fair price. If they can't supply it, they deserve to fail in my book.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Jingthing

[britmaveric]

^Sex sells and let's face it they could use the foot traffic over at the Avenue. Thinking more the high end bars - sort like Fashion Bar or smth similar.

Edited March 4, 2010 by britmaveric

[chillibilly]

Good comments...talking about getting away from the "paper cutter" routine of business, the new, "revived" Avenue could make the complex into a mini-Moscow...catering it to the Russian tourist since the numbers are about 70% of the Pattaya visitors. Showing Russian films (they don't understand English films) Russian Vodka bars and restaurants; an opera coffee cafe; stores selling Russian winter clothes at a discount...

[Jingthing]

I would prefer a Little China. Better food.