The 2010 Formula One Season

[F1fanatic]

Well like I said Michael is F1's equivalent to a metronome when he can drive his race but take him out of that rhythm and he has a tendency to fold. Rubens on the other hand has raced that way his entire career and still stayed humble too so that makes him every bit as quality a driver as Schumie in my book and he'd have far more wins and likely Championships too if he wasn't teamed up with Schumie and been the consummate professional team mate in doing so..

I was very disappointed for him coming so close & not having won the championship last year and again it was more attributable to his team then it was to him as he had several team and mechanical let downs early on in the season that certainly cost him the championship while Jenson was running up front unscathed and collecting points.. No driver has paid more dues to have that championship then he has and I fear that was his last opportunity as well.

As I've said before - everyone agrees with you - if it wasn't for team orders Reubens would have won all the championships that MS did when they were paired .

Its always been obvious that RB was the better driver, but Ferrari (and all the other teams) for their own obscure reasons thought otherwise.

If they'd only been more insightful (like you), they'd have realised he was only "F1's equivalent to a metronome when he can drive his race but take him out of that rhythm and he has a tendency to fold".

How often do I have repeat, his move on Reubens at the last race was bad, but not the 'horror to end all horrors' in F1 some are making it out to be!

As for the idiot who's trying to pretend that MS hates RB (when its obvious its the other way round).........

There are few F1 fans out there that think RB is not a whiner, and even less that think MS hates RB!!

[F1fanatic]

<snip>

the fact that Senna and then Schumacher were allowed to get away with it is why we have the appalling driving standards of today

<snip>

Spot on! With the rider that not ALL drivers are like that, but some certainly are.

Have to agree inso far as SOME drivers are like that.

There was Senna and then Schumacher. Now we have Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel - they ALL make it clear that they won't give way..... and Webber has recently joined the list, quite rightly IMO .

The funny thing is, have you noticed? They're the top people in F1?

Have you also noticed that they're the racers that make F1 interesting?? We may hate some of the moves, but it lightens the tedium of SOO many races.

[F1fanatic]

<snip>

So long as he was out front he was easily capable of passing back markers that were getting flagged to allow him to pass, but when he had to actually race another driver he would resort to running them off the road, or his infamous double maneouvre blocking tactics.

Another spot-on post!

Sorry, still making my way thru' the backlog - haven't been here for a while!

Absolutely spot on!! He won all those WDC 'cos he couldn't overtake, ran people off the road at every race and had an "infamous double maneouvre blocking tactic". Mind you, he could have learned something form Lewis recently who weaved all over the road MULTIPLE times, but wasn't even warned.....

Edited August 6, 2010 by F1fanatic

[wackysleet]

NOBODY has forgotten the Austria 2002 debacle, and never will - it was why the ban on team orders was introduced.

A few of us also remember that MS was going to win the next race but slowed down and let Reubens win to make up for it.....

For those that are pretending that I said MS was 'picked on', I quote what I actually said "Trouble is, as soon as Schumi is involved in anything, people start demanding he be banned."

F1 fanatic.

Your right about the results of the next race results which endorses exactly what I have been saying for some time that team orders based on those lines preclude the event being called a race, if in any doubt, refer to a dictionary with regards to the meaning of the word race.

The state that Formula 1 has allowed itself to become is more of a travelling circus than a true competition between RACING DRIVERS more about racing teams and the all important aspect of money making.

Incidently I am fully aware of incidences like the Rubens/Michael result and have witnessed others, notable D Coulthard and his team mate and again with Patresse/Mansell too name but a few

In the past I have given my views on Michael Shumacher to you and others, "The man is a cheat" and for that reason and that reason alone I dislike him intensely, I refrained from giving my views about last weeks incident simply because I did not see the race.

In the past I can certainly think of several incidents where in my view a ban would have been appropiate but was not given, but that was the decision of the stewards and the F.I.A. speculation of course was rife at the time as to why, but I am sure most posters will have their own views on the subject.:jap:

[b19bry]

For those that are pretending that I said MS was 'picked on', I quote what I actually said "Trouble is, as soon as Schumi is involved in anything, people start demanding he be banned."

More correctly what you wrote was:

Trouble is, as soon as Schumi is involved in anything, people start demanding he be banned. As I said earlier - other drivers have made bad moves that resulted in serious accidents, but NOBODY suggested they be banned - its only Schumi who elicits this response.....

The last line with the clear implication that Schumacher is in some way treated differently or 'picked on'

[b19bry]

<snip>

the fact that Senna and then Schumacher were allowed to get away with it is why we have the appalling driving standards of today

<snip>

Spot on! With the rider that not ALL drivers are like that, but some certainly are.

Have to agree inso far as SOME drivers are like that.

There was Senna and then Schumacher. Now we have Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel - they ALL make it clear that they won't give way..... and Webber has recently joined the list, quite rightly IMO .

The funny thing is, have you noticed? They're the top people in F1?

Have you also noticed that they're the racers that make F1 interesting?? We may hate some of the moves, but it lightens the tedium of SOO many races.

Well not sure I'd agree with all the drivers on that list, however that's somewhat irrelevant. Even if it were so, effectively what your saying is that to rise to the top today you must resort to driving your opponents of the track and be prepared to 'win at all costs' . I don't necessarily disagree with that but as someone who has been involved in motor sport and followed F1 for many many years I find it a very sad development.

It's also why I wouldn't put Senna or Schumacher in the same class as some other drivers even though the statistics show them to be 'greats'

What we need to improve the spectacle of some tedious races is not more stock car racing tactics but a change in the regulations to make overtaking easier. There are various ways in which this could be done, unfortunately since F1 is no longer a sport but a business there are too many vested interests that make this difficult

[WarpSpeed]

Well like I said Michael is F1's equivalent to a metronome when he can drive his race but take him out of that rhythm and he has a tendency to fold. Rubens on the other hand has raced that way his entire career and still stayed humble too so that makes him every bit as quality a driver as Schumie in my book and he'd have far more wins and likely Championships too if he wasn't teamed up with Schumie and been the consummate professional team mate in doing so..

I was very disappointed for him coming so close & not having won the championship last year and again it was more attributable to his team then it was to him as he had several team and mechanical let downs early on in the season that certainly cost him the championship while Jenson was running up front unscathed and collecting points.. No driver has paid more dues to have that championship then he has and I fear that was his last opportunity as well.

As I've said before - everyone agrees with you - if it wasn't for team orders Reubens would have won all the championships that MS did when they were paired .

Its always been obvious that RB was the better driver, but Ferrari (and all the other teams) for their own obscure reasons thought otherwise.

If they'd only been more insightful (like you), they'd have realised he was only "F1's equivalent to a metronome when he can drive his race but take him out of that rhythm and he has a tendency to fold".

How often do I have repeat, his move on Reubens at the last race was bad, but not the 'horror to end all horrors' in F1 some are making it out to be!

As for the idiot who's trying to pretend that MS hates RB (when its obvious its the other way round).........

There are few F1 fans out there that think RB is not a whiner, and even less that think MS hates RB!!

You don't do sarcasm do you? You're catching on though as the part about everyone agreeing with me is correct, just not your interpretation of it.. Again all one can say when speaking to a CDHD (Comprehensive Deficit Hypoactivity Disorder and yes that is intentionally spelled Hypo not Hyper) person such as yourself is :cheesy: ... You cleverly or unintentionally more like, overlooked the part about him being the F1 equivalent of a metronome or is it the word metronome that is throwing you? So here's the definition...

met·ro·nome

   /ˈmɛtrəˌnoʊm/ Show Spelled[me-truh-nohm] Show IPA

–noun

a mechanical or electrical instrument that makes repeated clicking sounds at an adjustable pace, used for marking rhythm, esp. in practicing music.

Use metronome in a Sentence

See images of metronome

Search metronome on the Web

Origin:

1810–20; metro-1 + -nome < Gk nómos rule, law

—Related forms

met·ro·nom·ic  /ˌmɛtrəˈnɒmɪk/ Show Spelled[me-truh-nom-ik] Show IPA, met·ro·nom·i·cal, adjective

met·ro·nom·i·cal·ly, adverb

So how that applies to Schumie is that he is continually good at repetitive work, doing the same thing consistently time after time as long as it does not require a lot of reaction out of his normal routine some call pressure, many people are good at this type of work and can spend decades doing it and becoming top in their profession in careers such a teaching, manufacturing or being a good taxi driver for example.

Basically, people, especially race car drivers are the best when they drive like this, being consistent is one of the most important qualities in a "DRIVER" which is what Michael is, a fantastic "DRIVER" and that's the part of him that got him his accolades and team attention. A fantastic racer on the other hand has that quality and as well also has the ability to think outside of the box quickly and adapt to a given circumstance or think on their feet and strategize as it were to get the best finish possible which even includes wins on some occasions when his equipment or his team is not optimal. These sort of people are attorneys, doctors, CEO's and such and that is what Shumie lacks on the few occasions he has even been unfortunate enough to have to deal with such team or equipment shortcomings.

If you can put aside your rampant fanaticism for a moment and evaluate objectively you'd notice that the beginning of Shumie's downfall was the leveling of the rules, not his age as he was still in his peak, rules such as having unlimited engine and transmission changes for example.. One engine for qualifying and one for the race so not only did he experience few mechanical failures but he had better engines for qualifying to put him up front and then all he had to do was stay there which is quite easy for a "DRIVER" to do..His record of wins and Championships bares that out as it steadily declined in lock step with the rules until he was finally emasculated into retirement due to his inability to adapt to those equalities, not his age, thus Rubens on the other hand stayed with it and still came a very close runner up to being Champion last year and still this year is out doing Schumie in lesser equipment.

I still believe that under those same circumstances were they applied again today Schumie would be at the front of this current pack too, but his inability to adapt to the new rules even after he was given special attention and equipment that his team mate did not have during the mid-season transition into the European part of the season he has now dropped back to where he began and even further as the season progresses instead of the converse..

Now, if you can argue with that concise, educated and astute assessment then it's clear that you'll just argue with anything no matter how solid the logic and to you even the color of the sky is arguable (blue BTW).. I've invested more energy and indulged you more then I care to on this petty point, now you have plenty of food for thought. If you persist on this course of denial and attempted sarcasm then it's more a sad reflection on your inability to adapt and think objectively as well which will only serve to further reinforce what I've been saying...

Edited August 7, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

There are few F1 fans out there that think RB is not a whiner, and even less that think MS hates RB!!

Where do you get this load of rubbish?? RB is considered one of the nicest and most amiable guys in F1 and he NEVER whined about any of his treatment with Ferrari nor with Jenson last year, he was and still is the consummate professional team player...

[WarpSpeed]

<snip>

So long as he was out front he was easily capable of passing back markers that were getting flagged to allow him to pass, but when he had to actually race another driver he would resort to running them off the road, or his infamous double maneouvre blocking tactics.

Another spot-on post!

Sorry, still making my way thru' the backlog - haven't been here for a while!

Absolutely spot on!! He won all those WDC 'cos he couldn't overtake, ran people off the road at every race and had an "infamous double maneouvre blocking tactic". Mind you, he could have learned something form Lewis recently who weaved all over the road MULTIPLE times, but wasn't even warned.....

And who has condoned Lewis's behavior on that? And are you suggesting that he has NEVER been penalized for any of it?? Same for Vettel?? You seem to dream up a lot of this rubbish as you go along and don't really think any of it out in too much detail before posting it, very emotional that...

On rare occasions when the offending driver realizes more penalty due to his actions then does the competition (I.E crashing him or breaking himself) they don't assess a penalty you know?

Likewise I'm also losing respect and admiration for Lewis and Vettel both of whom I believed were great talents on their own without pulling Schumie like antics to gain their accolades but that is wearing thin as time goes on.. Alonso is already lost cause lost both respect and admiration for him years ago..

By the way my tone may sound condescending and rightfully so since you began that theme with your first post in response to me in which it was and still continues to be both condescending and sarcastic so I'm employing F1 like tactics in response, see the connection..

Edited August 7, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[TBWG]

As for the idiot who's trying to pretend that MS hates RB (when its obvious its the other way round).........

Not sure if its me you are having a dig at, but, it is better to have an opinion than none at all.

Just because it does not concur with your views does not make me an idiot!

I long ago ceased to post on some threads on ThaiVisa because they degenerated into aggressive abuse, please don't let this thread take the same course.

TBWG

[wackysleet]

As for the idiot who's trying to pretend that MS hates RB (when its obvious its the other way round).........

Not sure if its me you are having a dig at, but, it is better to have an opinion than none at all.

Just because it does not concur with your views does not make me an idiot!

I long ago ceased to post on some threads on ThaiVisa because they degenerated into aggressive abuse, please don't let this thread take the same course.

TBWG

I think it's a bit late for that mate, it has gone down hill since the start of this seaon unfortunately.

Previously I thought we had some kind of mutual respect for each others views even when we beg to differ but apparently not, I had not posted for sometime until a couple of weeks ago because of some raised voices but will think twice before and if I post again.

[b19bry]

NOBODY has forgotten the Austria 2002 debacle, and never will - it was why the ban on team orders was introduced.

A few of us also remember that MS was going to win the next race but slowed down and let Reubens win to make up for it.....

Your right about the results of the next race

Actually F1 is not correct, the next race, the Monaco GP, was won by Coulthard with Schumacher 2nd.

There are a number of reasons why the team orders at the Austrian race caused such a stir:

1. It was only the sixth race into the season and with so many points to play for so there were really no grounds for favouring one driver over the other except maybe contractual.

2. Barrichello had been the fastest driver all weekend having qualified on pole and had convincingly won the race until team orders came into play.

3. The very same thing had happened the previous year when Barrichello had been running 2nd ahead of Schumacher.

I don't believe in principle there is anything wrong with team orders when it is done for the benefit of the 'team' in the later stages of a campaign. The problem here is that the team orders were superfluous and there was no benefit to the 'team'.

[b19bry]

I think it's a bit late for that mate, it has gone down hill since the start of this seaon unfortunately.

Previously I thought we had some kind of mutual respect for each others views even when we beg to differ but apparently not, I had not posted for sometime until a couple of weeks ago because of some raised voices but will think twice before and if I post again.

Although I agree about the way this thread seems to be going, at least you're one of the more informative and astute posters on this thread. I hope you continue to contribute.

[b19bry]

There are a number of reasons why the team orders at the Austrian race caused such a stir:

1. It was only the sixth race into the season and with so many points to play for so there were really no grounds for favouring one driver over the other except maybe contractual.

2. Barrichello had been the fastest driver all weekend having qualified on pole and had convincingly won the race until team orders came into play.

3. The very same thing had happened the previous year when Barrichello had been running 2nd ahead of Schumacher.

I don't believe in principle there is anything wrong with team orders when it is done for the benefit of the 'team' in the later stages of a campaign. The problem here is that the team orders were superfluous and there was no benefit to the 'team'.

Thinking back there was another very good reason why the team orders for this race upset the authorities so much:

The 2002 Ferrari was so far ahead of the competition (a bit like the ground effect Lotus 79) that there were only ever two cars that had a chance to win the championship that year and they were both Ferrari's. So at only the sixth race in, Ferrari were effectively telling the world, we've decided who's taking the Championship this year. Over the year there were many processional races and as a result a large drop-off in TV audiences which hurts in the wallet. The authorities had to act and banned team orders for the following year.

[rixalex]

In my opinion Ferrari got the team orders back to front.

When Alonso came on the radio complaining that Massa was making it difficult for him to pass, they should have instructed Alonso to hold his position and only attempt a move if he could make it cleanly. That would have been both fair and sensible. What happened was neither.

There is a time and a place for team orders, and that time and place is when they don't falsely promote one driver above another.

[rixalex]

As for the idiot who's trying to pretend that MS hates RB (when its obvious its the other way round).........

Not sure if its me you are having a dig at, but, it is better to have an opinion than none at all.

Just because it does not concur with your views does not make me an idiot!

I long ago ceased to post on some threads on ThaiVisa because they degenerated into aggressive abuse, please don't let this thread take the same course.

TBWG

I think it's a bit late for that mate, it has gone down hill since the start of this seaon unfortunately.

Previously I thought we had some kind of mutual respect for each others views even when we beg to differ but apparently not, I had not posted for sometime until a couple of weeks ago because of some raised voices but will think twice before and if I post again.

TBWG and Wacky, i do hope you continue to contribute your comments as i've learnt stuff from both of you. :jap:

Never too late as they say!

[b19bry]

In my opinion Ferrari got the team orders back to front.

When Alonso came on the radio complaining that Massa was making it difficult for him to pass, they should have instructed Alonso to hold his position and only attempt a move if he could make it cleanly. That would have been both fair and sensible. What happened was neither.

There is a time and a place for team orders, and that time and place is when they don't falsely promote one driver above another.

Well I'm going to (respectfully) disagree with you Rixalex as usual and likely incur the wrath of most of the other posters here too .

I think Ferrari got it just about right for a number of reasons except in the execution which was poor.

All teams employ team orders at some point or other, to a greater or lesser degree, whether obvious or not, always have done and will continue to, whether we like it or not.

I know that there are many here who, to put it mildly, do not like Alonso and/or Ferrari. However in the cold light of day, at the German GP I'm sure the Ferrari team management were mindful of the following :

1. Alonso has been demonstrably the fastest driver in the team all year. However coming into the race he was 47 points behind the championship leader with Mass a further 30 behind. Ferrari at this point realise they are falling behind and need to get into the drivers championship hunt. Under those circumstances it's pretty obvious which driver they're going to favour.

2. Alonso was quicker than Massa all weekend had qualified half a second quicker and had only missed out on pole by the smallest of margins.

3. Massa was only able to get ahead of Alonso due the the fact that at the start Vettel (who got away badly) put a severe chop on Alonso forcing him into the pit wall. Alonso then had to back off slightly which enabled Massa to get the jump on both Vettel and Alonso.

4. Alonso had closed onto the tail of Massa and was being slowed by him. Normally that's not a situation to invoke team orders, however Vettel was closing on both of them and would have put Alonso's and then maybe Massa's positions at risk. Once past Alonso was able to pull away and secure his position while Vettel closed in to within a second of Massa by the finish.

The more worrying thing to me in this whole episode was the 'Schumacher style' chop from Vettel which almost forced Alonso into the pit wall. I know a move in one direction is allowed but as was demonstrated in the next race this can be so dangerous. To my mind the FIA should act to stamp out these 'bully boy' tactics before someone is injured or worse.

Here is a similar move in the F2 from Brands Hatch from just a week back:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je71qzTdzx0&NR=1

Edited August 8, 2010 by b19bry

[TBWG]

As for the idiot who's trying to pretend that MS hates RB (when its obvious its the other way round).........

Not sure if its me you are having a dig at, but, it is better to have an opinion than none at all.

Just because it does not concur with your views does not make me an idiot!

I long ago ceased to post on some threads on ThaiVisa because they degenerated into aggressive abuse, please don't let this thread take the same course.

TBWG

I think it's a bit late for that mate, it has gone down hill since the start of this season unfortunately.

Previously I thought we had some kind of mutual respect for each others views even when we beg to differ but apparently not, I had not posted for sometime until a couple of weeks ago because of some raised voices but will think twice before and if I post again.

TBWG and Wacky, i do hope you continue to contribute your comments as I've learnt stuff from both of you. :jap:

Never too late as they say!

Thanks Rivalex

I am very thick skinned and have been called far worse than an idiot. So will continue to post when I think I have something worthwhile to add or wish to get something off my chest!!

TBWG

[rixalex]

Well I'm going to (respectfully) disagree with you Rixalex as usual and likely incur the wrath of most of the other posters here.

I think Ferrari got it just about right for a number of reasons except in the execution which was poor.

All teams employ team orders at some point or other, to a greater or lesser degree, whether obvious or not, always have done and will continue to, whether we like it or not.

I know that there are many here who, to put it mildly, do not like Alonso and/or Ferrari. However in the cold light of day, at the German GP I'm sure the Ferrari team management were mindful of the following :

1. Alonso has been demonstrably the fastest driver in the team all year. However coming into the race he was 47 points behind the championship leader with Mass a further 30 behind. Ferrari at this point realise they are falling behind and need to get into the drivers championship hunt. Under those circumstances it's pretty obvious which driver they're going to favour.

2. Alonso was quicker than Massa all weekend had qualified half a second quicker and had only missed out on pole by the smallest of margins.

3. Massa was only able to get ahead of Alonso due the the fact that at the start Vettel (who got away badly) put a severe chop on Alonso forcing him into the pit wall. Alonso then had to back off slightly which enabled Massa to get the jump on both Vettel and Alonso.

4. Alonso had closed onto the tail of Massa and was being slowed by him. Normally that's not a situation to invoke team orders, however Vettel was closing on both of them and would have put Alonso's and then maybe Massa's positions at risk. Once past Alonso was able to pull away and secure his position while Vettel closed in to within a second of Massa by the finish.

The more worrying thing to me in this whole episode was the Schumacher style chop from Vettel which almost forced Alonso into the pit wall. I know a move in one direction is allowed but as was demonstrated in the next race this can be so dangerous. To my mind the FIA should act to stamp out these bully boy tactics before someone is injured or worse.

My feeling on your comments is that were Alonso that much quicker than Massa he could have found his way past without help from the team. He couldn't.

They weren't racing at Monaco. Had they been it would have been far more understandable. Hockenheim is a fast wide track with many places to get passed.

Yes Alonso is better placed in the championship but there are still a lot of races to come and Massa is a long way from being mathematically out of it (although obviously being robbed of a win hasn't helped his cause).

As far as Massa being caught by Vettel after Alonso was allowed passed is concerned, i think that had a lot to do with Massa's state of mind which must have been terribly affected by the implications of what the team had just done to him. And even though Vettel caught him, he couldn't get passed and i'm sure nor would he have got passed Alonso. Ferrari would have had an honourable one-two and all the points that goes with it. Instead they made a mockery of the "sport". No doubt they and their fans will think it worth it if Alonso is crowned Champion at the end of the year. Others might not agree.

[WarpSpeed]

As far as Massa being caught by Vettel after Alonso was allowed passed is concerned, i think that had a lot to do with Massa's state of mind which must have been terribly affected by the implications of what the team had just done to him. And even though Vettel caught him, he couldn't get passed and i'm sure nor would he have got passed Alonso. Ferrari would have had an honourable one-two and all the points that goes with it. Instead they made a mockery of the "sport". No doubt they and their fans will think it worth it if Alonso is crowned Champion at the end of the year. Others might not agree.

Besides as was demonstrated by this entire debated debacle catching and passing are 2 completely different items. One can "catch" someone quite easily on an open track especially if the other driver is in conservation mode and everything is turned down but then passing which is quite a different matter.. Don't forget that while Vettel may have been catching him the engineers have the race mathematically figured down to the millisecond and keep their drivers informed, at that point in the race conserving fuel and equipment to get a 1-2 finish for coveted manufacturers points was the imperative and just in case they need to fight for it in the end but it is certain he wasn't sneaking up on Massa and it is certain that both he and the team knew how much he could give away and not give up the position in the end. While a second seems a little bit, in the case of F1 where a second can represent 15 positions or more in qualifying a second might as well be all day in such a case..

[b19bry]

First off you contend that if a car is that much quicker (i.e. half a second) it should be able to pass.

My feeling on your comments is that were Alonso that much quicker than Massa he could have found his way past without help from the team. He couldn't.

They weren't racing at Monaco. Had they been it would have been far more understandable. Hockenheim is a fast wide track with many places to get passed.

You then go on to say :

even though Vettel caught him, he couldn't get passed and i'm sure nor would he have got passed Alonso.

Vettel was actually more than a second a lap quicker than Massa at this point.

Even if a car is a second a lap quicker passing on most circuits with the current cars is difficult, and at this race there were very few on track overtakes made. Overtaking is a little easier with different types of car that have different strengths, but these are teammates in identical cars that have the same strengths. I suspect the latter of your statements to be nearer the truth.

Instead they made a mockery of the "sport". No doubt they and their fans will think it worth it if Alonso is crowned Champion at the end of the year. Others might not agree.

I agree Ferrari made a 'pig's ear' in the way this was handled but if you think they are the only team that operates, or has recently operated team orders I think your mistaken. F1 has been for some time very much a business with little room left for "sport".

[TBWG]

F1 has been for some time very much a business with little room left for "sport".

Agreed, but business's are run for the benefit of customers i.e. fans, and fans want to see racing and overtaking not contrived passes.

It appears that the teams have lost sight of this basic business principle. No fans, no sponsors, no dosh!

TBWG

[b19bry]

Agreed, but business's are run for the benefit of customers i.e. fans, and fans want to see racing and overtaking

or if that can't be arranged then at least the cars driving into and at each other to lighten the tedium

Edited August 8, 2010 by b19bry

[JetsetBkk]

I agree Ferrari made a 'pig's ear' in the way this was handled <snip>

I don't think they made a pig's ear of it. I think it was all planned - it's all another "Truman Show", and we are all the Trumans.

Why was the team order so crystal clear - both in its meaning and in the clarity with which it was spoken?

Why was the "Team radio" so crystal clear, so clear that all the viewers could hear it, when usually the "Team Radio" sound is is worse than a short wave radio?

Why did the commentators stop talking about how could Alonso get past Massa at the very moment that the "Team Radio" occurred?

It's all too convenient. It was a put up job to keep the "sport" in the news.

$100,000 for Ferrari? - peanuts compared to the publicity the "sport" got - good or bad, it's still publicity.

Well, that's my conspiracy theory. It's a Truman show, the whole dämn sport.

Edited August 9, 2010 by JetsetBkk

[PattayaParent]

I always find it odd that mid/low order teams with more or less equal equipment can make overtaking manouevres but the high order teams cannot overtake each other, or even an inferior high end machine?

It always makes a mockery of the 'track is not good for overtaking' argument.

[rixalex]

First off you contend that if a car is that much quicker (i.e. half a second) it should be able to pass.

You then go on to say :

Vettel was actually more than a second a lap quicker than Massa at this point.

Even if a car is a second a lap quicker passing on most circuits with the current cars is difficult, and at this race there were very few on track overtakes made. Overtaking is a little easier with different types of car that have different strengths, but these are teammates in identical cars that have the same strengths. I suspect the latter of your statements to be nearer the truth.

Well for me the reason why Alonso wasn't able to pass Massa was because, contrary to what you have said, that weekend they were very closely matched. Massa made a great start and got ahead and the fact that Vettel cut up Alonso doesn't take anything away from Massa's drive - in short, he deserved to be running in the position he was in.

And as for why Vettel couldn't get passed Massa, and why i believe he wouldn't have got passed Alonso, is that although Vettel was putting in some fast laps, Massa was driving within himself and had the ability to up his pace if needed.

I therefore don't think the track had anything to do with it. Yes overtaking is tricky, but at the end of the day, that could be said for all of the races and that is what these top professionals are paid to be good at is it not?

Hockenheim isn't a tight street track. It's a fast and wide one, and as PattayaParent has just pointed out, the lower team drivers certainly proved overtaking possible on it.

Instead they made a mockery of the "sport". No doubt they and their fans will think it worth it if Alonso is crowned Champion at the end of the year. Others might not agree.

I agree Ferrari made a 'pig's ear' in the way this was handled but if you think they are the only team that operates, or has recently operated team orders I think your mistaken. F1 has been for some time very much a business with little room left for "sport".

Don't believe i have ever stated that Ferrari are the only team to operate team orders.

[b19bry]

Well for me the reason why Alonso wasn't able to pass Massa was because, contrary to what you have said, that weekend they were very closely matched.

From final practice all through qualifying Alonso was the best part of half a second quicker, I don't call that 'very close' in fact it's quite a big gap. In the race Massa fared a little better on fastest laps where he was able to get to within .217 of a second but again I wouldn't call that 'very close'.

Massa made a great start and got ahead and the fact that Vettel cut up Alonso doesn't take anything away from Massa's drive - in short, he deserved to be running in the position he was in.

Yes, Massa made a great start but so too did Alonso until Vettel baulked him and he had to back off. The Ferrari's seem to be very quick of the line now and having seen the blinding start that Alonso pulled in Hungary I see no reason to believe he wouldn't have taken the lead in Germany except for Vettel's blocking.

I therefore don't think the track had anything to do with it. Yes overtaking is tricky, but at the end of the day, that could be said for all of the races and that is what these top professionals are paid to be good at is it not?

Hockenheim isn't a tight street track. It's a fast and wide one, and as PattayaParent has just pointed out, the lower team drivers certainly proved overtaking possible on it.

I don't think the track has much to do with it either it's really the cars in their current form that make overtaking so difficult. There are working groups looking at changing the regulations to improve this.

The drivers are really paid to finish in the best position possible. Sadly, for the most part these days that doesn't involve any on track overtaking. It's mostly about getting a good grid position, a good start, maybe an overtake at the pit stops and then maintaining that to the finish.

As for PP's comment on the lower team drivers doing more passing, I'm not sure I agree, you'd need to be more specific, as I said I don't recall many on track overtakes at all in Hockenheim, I'd be happy to be proved wrong !

Don't believe i have ever stated that Ferrari are the only team to operate team orders.

But you use that to accuse them of making a mockery of the "sport", so surely most the other teams at some point or other do that then too ?

[rixalex]

Don't believe i have ever stated that Ferrari are the only team to operate team orders.

But you use that to accuse them of making a mockery of the "sport", so surely most the other teams at some point or other do that then too ?

Ferrari isn't the only team to have ever commited the offence, they just happen to be the most recent culprits, hence why it is they who find themselves under the spotlight right now.

Also, team orders come in many different forms, some of which most consider more acceptable than others. For example, team orders that help to cement positions already gained, such as ordering team mates near the end of a race to hold station and not battle each other seem pretty fair and also pretty sensible. Drivers have plenty of laps in which to determine what position they finish in before orders come into play. They control their own fate and because of this the integrity to the sport is not completely thrown out the window.

What Ferrari did wasn't to cement places, it was to reverse them. Had Massa been mathematically out of the driver's championship, this might have been more understandable, albeit still somewhat undesirable. He wasn't. He isn't.

Alonso should have either used his superior speed and his undoubtable talent to get passed Massa, or he should have accepted the very reasonable second place finish that his drive deserved. Instead he got on the radio and complained that Massa was driving dangerously, in effect daring the team to not acquiesce to the unspoken demand he was making. How sad.

[WarpSpeed]

I don't think the track has much to do with it either it's really the cars in their current form that make overtaking so difficult. There are working groups looking at changing the regulations to improve this.

The drivers are really paid to finish in the best position possible. Sadly, for the most part these days that doesn't involve any on track overtaking. It's mostly about getting a good grid position, a good start, maybe an overtake at the pit stops and then maintaining that to the finish.

As for PP's comment on the lower team drivers doing more passing, I'm not sure I agree, you'd need to be more specific, as I said I don't recall many on track overtakes at all in Hockenheim, I'd be happy to be proved wrong !

The track does have a lot to do with passing, though I understand you're not speaking of this case necessarily. In all cases a track that is high speed with wide, flowing corners which do not require a lot of braking are notoriously bad for passing. Not only is there such equality from the top end of the field to the bottom (a couple teams not withstanding), but additionally the aero effects of the cars which allow them to corner so quickly are rendered more ineffective at higher speeds for the pursuing car due to turbulence off the leading car so it is impossible to gain that minimal amount of distance needed to make those passes with all things being nearly equal at that point having neutralized a given cars aero advantage and Hp is a moot point at that time given that it can not be used.

Let's not forget you can throw 1 to 2 second gaps out the window when you put that car close behind another car going through a corner, the car in front is always going to have a serious advantage with clean air flow regardless of which team it is which is why they ask slower cars to move over when being passed by the leaders.

I would also add that the cars at the tail end of the field who are most handicapped in design such as aero, are so, because they are not as smooth nor as efficient and therefore create an even bigger aero disturbance and that is magnified to the cars following through high speed corners..

Conversely on a tight track such as Singapore or most notably Monaco for example while there is some corners to pass on the track it is so tight it isn't feasible to do so and the opposite is true... Slow enough but too restrictive space wise.. Obviously the best tracks have a compromise between space to pass and slow enough corners to create the opportunity for it..

Edited August 10, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[b19bry]

What Ferrari did wasn't to cement places, it was to reverse them. Had Massa been mathematically out of the driver's championship, this might have been more understandable, albeit still somewhat undesirable. He wasn't. He isn't.

What Ferrari did was all about cementing places. Massa was evidently holding Alonso up and slowly backing them both up to Vettel. That would have allowed Vettel to get into striking distance of Alonso well before the finish, as indeed he subsequently did of Massa. Now maybe Vettel would still not have passed either Ferrari and I agree that was most the likely outcome, however the point is he could have had the chance to attack Alonso. With one simple mistake he could have been passed Alonso and then directly onto Massa. Allowing Alonso to pass and build up a lead ensured at least he would not be challenged thus cementing the win for Ferrari.

Going into the race Alonso was on 98 points, Massa on 68 with Hamilton leading on 145. At that rate of scoring if Ferrari were to wait for Massa to be mathematically out of it, Alonso would realistically be out of it too.

Alonso should have either used his superior speed and his undoubtable talent to get passed Massa, or he should have accepted the very reasonable second place finish that his drive deserved. Instead he got on the radio and complained that Massa was driving dangerously, in effect daring the team to not acquiesce to the unspoken demand he was making. How sad.

In the same way that I don't believe Vettel would have passed Massa (or indeed Alonso without team orders) I also don't believe Alonso would have passed Massa without Massa making a mistake. The difference in speed just wasn't great enough for any of them. The fastest driver in lap times was Vettel then Alonso followed by Massa so the greatest opportunity was with Vettel.

Where did you read Alonso complaining that Massa was driving dangerously ? I didn't see that, as far as I'm aware all he said was "I'm much faster than Felipe" ?