The 2010 Formula One Season

[JetsetBkk]

I was having flash backs of China when he stayed out needlessly on slicks and ended up sliding off coming into the pits

And I was having flash backs to Spa 1998 where Coulthard (McLaren) found it necessary to brake on the racing line in a corner to allow a certain German driver to drive over him.

Funny how history repeats itself. Pffffffffffew indeed.

98 was the year i spent cut off from civilisation, far far away from F1, so i had to google that incident:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLGqedydP74

An unfortunate accident without a doubt, but Schumi's reaction says a lot about the man - nothing we didn't already know however...

Thanks for finding that clip. I was trying to recall that incident a few days ago but couldn't remember who was involved with Schumacher. But one thing's for sure, it made my day at the time and many other peoples'.

As you say, Schumacher's reaction said a lot. I think he used anger to cover up his own excruciating embarrassment at driving into the back of another car. He probably felt a right :jerk:

He certainly looked it.

[WarpSpeed]

Well, a good day for Lewis and Mark.

Could have all though gone terribly pear-shaped with their decisions to stay out an extra lap when the rain started to fall. Seemed daft.

Concerning the incident with Vettel and Button, whilst one feels terribly sorry for Button - and isn't it always the way that the driver who didn't cause the accident gets the worse damage - i must admit i was surprised that Vettel was penalised. I felt that it was simply a driving error that resulted from the track getting slippery; not the result of driving dangerously. Racing accidents happen. Are we now to have penalties for every accident? Was Liuzzi penalized for puncturing Vettel's tyre? Not as far as i know.

Yes I agree in terms of Vettel I think he got the raw end this time...

Looked like he had a ton of trailing throttle oversteer trying to brake later but that can happen to anybody and was exasperated by the obvious moisture that was falling as shown by his on board camera..

Edited August 31, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[yermanee]

So obviously the fact that Coulthard admitted he caused the accident has no bearing on this matter, same as when J.P.Montoya (McLaren) found it necessary to drive into the back of Schumacher in the tunnel at Monte Carlo, and everybody laughing at Schumi for being so stupid to drive into the wall behind the safety car. Schumi was upset that time also and rightfully so.

Anyway since this topic is obviously biased against anything Schumacher and Ferrari, you're not gonna find me here again.

Edited September 1, 2010 by yermanee

[PattayaParent]

There you go again, slagging off Schumi for reacting like anybody would have done.

Even Coulthard himself has recently admitted that he made a mistake then.

I could give you more examples that McLaren is not shy of using team orders, but the difference is that the British then call it - clever tactics -,

but oh dear if Ferrari does the same, then it's dispicable.

Just my 2 cents

There's quite a difference between having a general 'team order' before a race such as we're likely to have now with McClaren

"Jensen, if you're behind Lewis then block the following cars so he can win"

and deliberately broadcasting over public radio in the middle of a race

"Felipe, Alonso feels he's not good enough to pass you and is throwing his toys out of the car, so would you be so kind as to move over to allow him to pass"

and thereby fix the outcome of the race.

And remember why this Team Orders rule was introduced? It was because Ferrari deliberately fixed the race result in the past in exactly the same manner.

And there have been a few other rules changes initiated because of Ferrari 'bending of the rules' in the past, and even just a few races ago.

Edit: Sorry the recent rule change related to the Safety Car wasn't initiated because of Ferrari (although a previous one was) but funnily enough the driver and team manager were both the ex-Ferrari team members that made other rule changes necessary.

Edited September 1, 2010 by PattayaParent

[WarpSpeed]

I don't have a problem with rules changes being initiated due to a teams creative innovation it's happened to me on a few occasions myself as well other teams have instituted changes due to their interpretation of competition rules it's rather complimentary to have that type of effect on an entire organization of long time professionals in the field. It displays out of the box thinking and is a major part of a sport where that interpretation separates the wheat from the chaff and is always on the thin edge of what is legal and what isn't.

But where I have a problem is once it has been clearly established and defined that, that tactic is no longer legal and you still try to go around it, then I have a problem..

Edited September 1, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[PattayaParent]

^yes, if there's a technical innovation or a creative interpretation of the rules in order to gain an advantage then a team may benefit until the loophole is closed but once the loophole is closed the tactic is no longer legal and if you still try to go around it as you say, then it is clearly a deliberate breach.

Such a loophole was closed as a result of one driver being told to let another driver pass in a previous race, so for ANY team to do it again is blatent disregard for the rules. That the team that broke the rule was the team that caused the change in the first place is completely inexcusable.

[JetsetBkk]

So obviously the fact that Coulthard admitted he caused the accident has no bearing on this matter, same as when J.P.Montoya (McLaren) found it necessary to drive into the back of Schumacher in the tunnel at Monte Carlo, and everybody laughing at Schumi for being so stupid to drive into the wall behind the safety car. Schumi was upset that time also and rightfully so.

Anyway since this topic is obviously biased against anything Schumacher and Ferrari, you're not gonna find me here again.

Are you related to Alonso? More toys out of the pram.

[pieandmash]

Anyway since this topic is obviously biased against anything Schumacher and Ferrari, you're not gonna find me here again.

Who says Yermans are bad sports !

Dont forget to take your ball home with you

[JetsetBkk]

So obviously the fact that Coulthard admitted he caused the accident has no bearing on this matter

<snip>

Really?...

But Coulthard replied: "He (Schumacher) came into the garage saying that I tried to kill him.

"I find his behaviour totally unacceptable. The allegations he made were untrue.

"For him to come into the garage acting like an animal and accuse me of trying to kill him is totally unacceptable.

"I moved well over to the right-hand side to give him the chance to overtake.

"Either he wasn't watching in front of him or there was poor visibility. I hadn't moved over or swerved. He just went straight into the back of me."

Coulthard was backed by the stewards, who ruled that the crash was an accident caused by the dreadful conditions and lousy driving by the Yerman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/formula_1/161592.stm

(OK, I added the bit in italics)

Edited September 1, 2010 by JetsetBkk

[rixalex]

There you go again, slagging off Schumi for reacting like anybody would have done.

If you haven't already left this thread in a huff, could you offer some examples of similar cases in which a driver has driven into the back of someone else, and then not only blamed the driver that they drove into, but in a pathetic display of false machoism, rushed through the pits looking for a fight? Did Webber do it earlier this season when he hit a back marker and almost killed himself? Did Kimi do it in Monaco when he ruined Sutil's race by rear-ending him?

Even Coulthard himself has recently admitted that he made a mistake then.

Any links?

[Mosha]

There you go again, slagging off Schumi for reacting like anybody would have done.

If you haven't already left this thread in a huff, could you offer some examples of similar cases in which a driver has driven into the back of someone else, and then not only blamed the driver that they drove into, but in a pathetic display of false machoism, rushed through the pits looking for a fight? Did Webber do it earlier this season when he hit a back marker and almost killed himself? Did Kimi do it in Monaco when he ruined Sutil's race by rear-ending him?

Even Coulthard himself has recently admitted that he made a mistake then.

Any links?

DC did once famously spin off and out of the race in a warm up lap. Schumi is a god and thus makes no mistakes. There again I'm an athiest and Schumi is the worst cheat in history.

[Mosha]

The Stig was not Rubens, he was Ben Collins a British F3 driver, and that is official. A court case has settled it.

[PattayaParent]

The Stig was not Rubens, he was Ben Collins a British F3 driver, and that is official. A court case has settled it.

Would that be Rubens Schumacher?

[Mosha]

H'mm oops, but anyway this Ben Collins has been in court to fight for the right to publish the Stigs id in his memoires. The BBC lost the case.

[rixalex]

DC did once famously spin off and out of the race in a warm up lap.

Indeed. I seem to recall he's not the only one to have made that blunder.

[F1fanatic]

There you go again, slagging off Schumi for reacting like anybody would have done.

If you haven't already left this thread in a huff, could you offer some examples of similar cases in which a driver has driven into the back of someone else, and then not only blamed the driver that they drove into, but in a pathetic display of false machoism, rushed through the pits looking for a fight? Did Webber do it earlier this season when he hit a back marker and almost killed himself? Did Kimi do it in Monaco when he ruined Sutil's race by rear-ending him?

Even Coulthard himself has recently admitted that he made a mistake then.

Any links?

A quick google search provided the following link:

www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/28/david-coulthards-last-f1-race/

"The infamous Spa crash with Schumacher was not his first nor his last run-in with the German driver. Coulthard later accepted the Spa collision was his fault – he had lifted the throttle on the straight to let Schumacher by, not realising how close he was"

I can't remember the exact details anymore, but Coulthard said (a few years later when another driver did something similar to him - although not in driving rain where the visibility was pretty much zero) that he would have re-acted differently now if faced with the same circumstances as the Spa race.

I'd like to see a slow replay of the SV/JB incident. Does anyone have a link?

It looked to me as if SV tried to overtake with virtually no room between them and lost it for some reason (JB says the track was dry, but perhaps SV hit a wet patch??).

[rixalex]

A quick google search provided the following link:

www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/28/david-coulthards-last-f1-race/

"The infamous Spa crash with Schumacher was not his first nor his last run-in with the German driver. Coulthard later accepted the Spa collision was his fault – he had lifted the throttle on the straight to let Schumacher by, not realising how close he was"

Thanks for the link. I found these comments taken from the same article interesting as well:

The last race of 1997 and the first of 1998 were important moments in Coulthard’s career. On both occasions he was set to win, on both occasions he let Hakkinen by. Coulthard has claimed he felt Hakkinen was favoured at McLaren over him – but also admitted he volunteered the wins to Hakkinen of his own free choosing.

To some, this is Coulthard’s great strength – that despite the gigantic pressures of F1 he remains a gentleman of integrity. To others, it is proof that he lacks the killer instinct to grab any chance at victory, however it presents itself.

If that’s the charge Coulthard himself is happy to accept it. In a recent interview he said:

It’s like when Michael [schumacher] told me after Spa ‘98 that he could never remember being wrog. If that’s what it takes, if that’s the last little bit you need to be a champion, then I don’t want to be that person. I want to trust in people, and I want to be wrong sometimes. You can’t be right all the time.

[F1fanatic]

A quick google search provided the following link:

www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/10/28/david-coulthards-last-f1-race/

"The infamous Spa crash with Schumacher was not his first nor his last run-in with the German driver. Coulthard later accepted the Spa collision was his fault – he had lifted the throttle on the straight to let Schumacher by, not realising how close he was"

Thanks for the link. I found these comments taken from the same article interesting as well:

The last race of 1997 and the first of 1998 were important moments in Coulthard's career. On both occasions he was set to win, on both occasions he let Hakkinen by. Coulthard has claimed he felt Hakkinen was favoured at McLaren over him – but also admitted he volunteered the wins to Hakkinen of his own free choosing.

To some, this is Coulthard's great strength – that despite the gigantic pressures of F1 he remains a gentleman of integrity. To others, it is proof that he lacks the killer instinct to grab any chance at victory, however it presents itself.

If that's the charge Coulthard himself is happy to accept it. In a recent interview he said:

It's like when Michael [schumacher] told me after Spa '98 that he could never remember being wrog. If that's what it takes, if that's the last little bit you need to be a champion, then I don't want to be that person. I want to trust in people, and I want to be wrong sometimes. You can't be right all the time.

Errr, yes. Trying to get your point?

That MS never admitted he was wrong?

He did re. the JV collision (years later....) but then again, DC only admitted he was wrong in the Spa accident years later.

DC is right though, those that become legendary champions, stop at close to nothing to win.

Senna did it in his time, MS did it in his and (IMO) LH/SV are doing the same now - they (like the previous 'greats' they are emulating) make it clear that they are overtaking/will not be overtaken without a collision.

SV unfortunately doesn't have the race craft to go with it, so has a nasty habit of giving the other driver no chance to avoid a collision....

[rixalex]

Errr, yes. Trying to get your point?

It's gracious of DC to admit he played a part in the accident (albeit belatedly) but i still believe that in incidents in which one driver drives into the back of another, the bulk of the responsibility must lie with the driver behind (just as in road accidents). The exception to this might be if a driver brake tests another driver, which is a dirty tactic. DC wasn't brake testing Schumi, he was simply trying to get out of his way and visibility was virtually zero. Perhaps he should have gone off line to do this, but in those conditions who wants to go off line? Nobody.

For Schumi to have been a bit upset, it would have been understandable. For Schumi to blame it all on DC and for him to rush around the pit garages like a mad-man it was pretty sad.

[F1fanatic]

Errr, yes. Trying to get your point?

It's gracious of DC to admit he played a part in the accident (albeit belatedly) but i still believe that in incidents in which one driver drives into the back of another, the bulk of the responsibility must lie with the driver behind (just as in road accidents). The exception to this might be if a driver brake tests another driver, which is a dirty tactic. DC wasn't brake testing Schumi, he was simply trying to get out of his way and visibility was virtually zero. Perhaps he should have gone off line to do this, but in those conditions who wants to go off line? Nobody.

For Schumi to have been a bit upset, it would have been understandable. For Schumi to blame it all on DC and for him to rush around the pit garages like a mad-man it was pretty sad.

Having worked in the Claims Dept of an insurance company and been horrified when a colleague of mine got on the phone and blamed the woman who ran into the back of 'our' insured vehicle for the accident, even though our insured had admitted the accident was entirely his fault as he'd braked at the wrong time.... AND, got the poor woman to believe she wouldn't win in court !!! If it had gone to Court our Insured would have lost 100% - I know that its not that simple.

The funny thing is that after moving out of the Insurance industry, one of the women I worked with was telling us how her son had been involved in a car accident - he'd pulled into the 'fast' lane on the motorway and been hit in the back by another car. I warned her that it wasn't automatically a case of 'being hit in the rear' as proof positive that her son would be in the right. Perhaps her son had just pulled out into the fast lane too soon? Somebody else (that she respected more) told her "NO - if you're hit in the rear its automatically the other person's fault".

Guess who was proven right?? The mother respected me far more after that......

Mind you, you could be right and DC pretended he was to blame (years later) cos....... ????

[rixalex]

Mind you, you could be right and DC pretended he was to blame (years later) cos....... ????

I'm not saying he pretended he was to blame, i'm saying that he accepted that he played a part in the accident. If you wish to believe his was the only part and that Schumacher was entirely faultless, that's up to you. We can all watch the video footage and make up our own minds where the blame lies and how justified Schumacher's reaction was.

[F1fanatic]

Mind you, you could be right and DC pretended he was to blame (years later) cos....... ????

I'm not saying he pretended he was to blame, i'm saying that he accepted that he played a part in the accident. If you wish to believe his was the only part and that Schumacher was entirely faultless, that's up to you. We can all watch the video footage and make up our own minds where the blame lies and how justified Schumacher's reaction was.

I'm not laying blame at all - I rely on DC's word for it that he was to blame, not that he just played a part in the accident.

As for Schumi's reaction.... in the circumstances it seems understandable to me, albeit OTT from anyone else's POV. He thought he could have been killed by such a stupid mistake and was incredibly angry.

I agree though that Schumi was wrong in expecting all other drivers to drive the way he would have. I don't mean this in the trite way it sounds - he was driving (in a car that was far more capable of dealing with the horrendous conditions) in a way that others couldn't. I remember it well, and couldn't believe the way he continued in pretty much zero visibility as if conditions were normal!

Anyway, it was a long time ago and entertained us all at the time (Schumi's reaction - not the crash itself!).

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

he'd pulled into the 'fast' lane on the motorway and been hit in the back by another car. I warned her that it wasn't automatically a case of 'being hit in the rear' as proof positive that her son would be in the right. Perhaps her son had just pulled out into the fast lane too soon? Somebody else (that she respected more) told her "NO - if you're hit in the rear its automatically the other person's fault".

Guess who was proven right?? The mother respected me far more after that......

<snip>

So you were proven right? And her son was found to be at fault?

[JetsetBkk]

I'm not laying blame at all - I rely on DC's word for it that he was to blame, not that he just played a part in the accident.

The race stewards thought otherwise.

DC was probably just trying to be a gentleman and stop all the arguments.

Got a link?

As for Schumi's reaction.... in the circumstances it seems understandable to me

Not for the majority of rational human beings, though.

, albeit OTT from anyone else's POV. He thought he could have been killed by such a stupid mistake

His stupid mistake.

and was incredibly angry.

I agree though that Schumi was wrong in expecting all other drivers to drive the way he would have. I don't mean this in the trite way it sounds - he was driving (in a car that was far more capable of dealing with the horrendous conditions) in a way that others couldn't. I remember it well, and couldn't believe the way he continued in pretty much zero visibility as if conditions were normal!

Exactly. He was doing something very dangerous - and paid the price.

 Anyway, it was a long time ago and entertained us all at the time (Schumi's reaction - not the crash itself!).

Ah, something we can agree on. His reaction was not typical of him, but did show he was human and extremely embarrassed at being made to look stupid. It was very amusing at the time.

[rixalex]

I'm not laying blame at all - I rely on DC's word for it that he was to blame, not that he just played a part in the accident.

Don't be daft. Of course you are laying blame. You are relying on DC's words because in this case you happen to agree with them. If you didn't agree with them, would you still rely on them?

Your interpretation that DC admitting fault in the accident means that he thinks Schumacher was entirely blameless is simply your interpretation. My take is that DC is man enough to admit when he has done wrong, and rather than point the finger, he leaves it for other drivers to admit their own mistakes. Of course though, as he himself says, some drivers seem to believe themselves incapable of ever having made a mistake.

As for Schumi's reaction.... in the circumstances it seems understandable to me, albeit OTT from anyone else's POV. He thought he could have been killed by such a stupid mistake and was incredibly angry.

Contrast Schumi's reaction then with Hill's reaction when Schumi drove into him. Or how about Webber's reaction this season when he went airborne. Hill and Webber might not have Schumi's class in the car, but outside of it there is no comparison.

[F1fanatic]

<snip>

he'd pulled into the 'fast' lane on the motorway and been hit in the back by another car. I warned her that it wasn't automatically a case of 'being hit in the rear' as proof positive that her son would be in the right. Perhaps her son had just pulled out into the fast lane too soon? Somebody else (that she respected more) told her "NO - if you're hit in the rear its automatically the other person's fault".

Guess who was proven right?? The mother respected me far more after that......

<snip>

So you were proven right? And her son was found to be at fault?

I wasn't 'proven right' as I was only trying to warn her that it's not quite as simple as 'he ran into the back of me - its his fault'. I just suspected that there was more to it than I was being told.... I'd spent quite a few years working in the claims dept of an insurance company, so knew things were rarely as black and white as most people think when it comes to legal liability.

But yes, it turned out that her son was found to be at fault as he HAD pulled straight into the path of an oncoming vehicle, giving them no time to slow down enough to avoid hitting the rear of his car.

Edited September 7, 2010 by F1fanatic

[F1fanatic]

I'm not laying blame at all - I rely on DC's word for it that he was to blame, not that he just played a part in the accident.

Don't be daft. Of course you are laying blame. You are relying on DC's words because in this case you happen to agree with them. If you didn't agree with them, would you still rely on them?

Your interpretation that DC admitting fault in the accident means that he thinks Schumacher was entirely blameless is simply your interpretation. My take is that DC is man enough to admit when he has done wrong, and rather than point the finger, he leaves it for other drivers to admit their own mistakes. Of course though, as he himself says, some drivers seem to believe themselves incapable of ever having made a mistake.

As for Schumi's reaction.... in the circumstances it seems understandable to me, albeit OTT from anyone else's POV. He thought he could have been killed by such a stupid mistake and was incredibly angry.

Contrast Schumi's reaction then with Hill's reaction when Schumi drove into him. Or how about Webber's reaction this season when he went airborne. Hill and Webber might not have Schumi's class in the car, but outside of it there is no comparison.

Its impossible to discuss a point with someone who says that DC admitting (years later) that he was at fault, was a coded way of saying he was only partly to blame.

At the time, I thought Schumi had to bear most of the blame for driving too fast in those conditions. DC however made it clear (years later) that he made the mistake and braked at the wrong time.

If you accept what DC himself said (again - years later, when somebody did something similar to him), then there is nothing more to argue about - certainly not to continue to argue that MS was angry 'cos of a mistake he'd made......

Edited September 7, 2010 by F1fanatic

[JetsetBkk]

Its impossible to discuss a point with someone who says that DC admitting (years later) that he was at fault, was a coded way of saying he was only partly to blame.

At the time, I thought Schumi had to bear most of the blame for driving too fast in those conditions. DC however made it clear (years later) that he made the mistake and braked at the wrong time.

If you accept what DC himself said (again - years later, when somebody did something similar to him), then there is nothing more to argue about - certainly not to continue to argue that MS was angry 'cos of a mistake he'd made......

He did not brake. Please get the facts straight, Mr. Fanatic:

"I'm not doing a Fernando-beating thing," Coulthard said. "But I realised on reflection ... when Michael ran into the back of me, his reaction was that I'd brake tested him or tried to kill him and all that sort of thing.

"The stewards looked at the data and I hadn't braked, so it was just all brushed under the carpet. The reality is that I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now.

"In 1998, I didn't have the experience and the knowledge, and I had never had someone run into the back of me.

"The minute I knew he was there, and I was told by the team that he was and was trying to allow him to pass me, I should have made a smarter decision."

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/06/1057430084085.html

I lifted to let him pass me, but I lifted in heavy spray on the racing line. You should never do that. I would never do that now.

Of course he wouldn't do that now because now he knows that nut-jobs like Schumacher will be tail-gating him far to close to see what is going on in front of him.

Coulthard was being very "gentlemanly" in his statement, but it is quite clear he was not accepting full responsibility for the crash.

[PattayaParent]

^ It's Ms. Fanatic isn't it?

[Miiyai46]

Good news for Ferrari and Alonso as no further sanction will be imposed on them!!!

Link for the article is http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/9/11221.html

Team orders should be allowed in F1 as they are allowed in all other sports. The best example is cycling where if your team mate does have a possibility to win you do your best to help him. If you do not like how your team is handled then leave it and find another team....as simple as that!

The championship is still open for Alonso and hopefully he will have a good weekend at Monza.

Link for the article is http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2010/9/11221.html