The 2010 Formula One Season

[rixalex]

Racing in F1 since 2001 - a total of six seasons behind the wheel - including 2 titles, albeit it in different cars, versus, never faced in F1 before but completed a few months of testing in the car.

Both had adjustments to make. Arguing that Alonso had more than Hamilton to me sells the man a little short.

I'm just pointing out that what you'd said about F1 being new to Hamilton was incorrect. In fact he first tested a Mclaren F1 car as far back as 2004 and had been instrumental as a test driver in the development of the 2007 car. The only acclimatisation he needed was to race in F1.

You might be right in suggesting that with his experience Alonso should have been quicker from the 'get go' but both he and Raikkonen struggled with the new Bridgestone tyres early in 2007.

OK then. I should have said that he was new to racing an F1 car.

I do think though there is a big jump between being a test driver, driving something round and round an empty circuit, and actually racing the things.. and this jump that Lewis made, was no less great than the jump Alonso made going from a Benetton to a McLaren.

So i still have no answer as to why Alonso, if he is the best driver as some believe, was unable to stamp his authority on the McLaren team by outpacing the rookie.

[rixalex]

I'm not even saying you're wrong, I already said I don't know the guy so whether he sulks or not I don't really know.

OK, well whilst you reserve judgement until you've had a long sit down lunch with a person, the rest of the world, fairly or unfairly, tends to form opinions on people they see in the public eye. I think it's pretty natural actually. Might not always be right, but there you have it.

[b19bry]

I don't dislike Hamilton, I don't even know the guy. It's just I don't care for his 'driving style' and for similar reasons I didn't admire Senna or Schumacher who had a very similar way of driving.

You know him well enough to call him a petulant prat, and petulant prats aren't usually people in life we have fondness for, are they?

I'd already conceded that I had no right to say that really so not sure why you need to repeat it ? Actually my friends and I call each other 'prats' from time to time yet we remain friends !

[

That doesn't, by the way, make me an Alonso fan which seems to be your deduction and your repeated accusation.

I think Hamilton's petulance and Alonso's sulking are both pretty well known characteristics of those men that have been the subject of debate in a wide variety of medias, and not just British. The fact that you happy and willing to acknowledge the negative side in Hamilton, that even i, as a fan, concede exists, but then suddenly in the case of Alonso you become defensive, demanding there be definitive proof (perhaps a signed bit of paper from a shrink confirming occasional bouts of morose, demanding, self-absorbed behaviour in the patient?), does suggest to me a degree of favourtism going on there. Only you know how much. I can understand why in such debates it makes life easier to put yourself across as being a fence-sitter.

And by the way, F1fanatic alluded to exactly the same point concerning Alonso in her "throwing toys out of the pram" comment... and she is a Schumacher fan. You discredit this opinion when i express it, as simply being the product of bias. I'd like to know how you explain away her feelings? Is she too biased and unable to comment objectively?

Again I conceded I don't know whether Hamilton is really a prat but then neither do you, you also don't 'know' whether Alonso suffers almighty sulks. I do think Alonso's latino temperament also leads him to be misinterpreted by many Anglo Saxons

I think F1 already expressed she didn't want Alonso to go to Ferrari, was 'willing' Massa to outpace him and expressed in no way was he a team player so yes I guess I'd call her a little biased when it comes to Alonso. She's certainly welcome to her opinion and she's ready to express it in a civil manner, I happen to disagree.

[F1fanatic]

Racing in F1 since 2001 - a total of six seasons behind the wheel - including 2 titles, albeit it in different cars, versus, never faced in F1 before but completed a few months of testing in the car.

Both had adjustments to make. Arguing that Alonso had more than Hamilton to me sells the man a little short.

I'm just pointing out that what you'd said about F1 being new to Hamilton was incorrect. In fact he first tested a Mclaren F1 car as far back as 2004 and had been instrumental as a test driver in the development of the 2007 car. The only acclimatisation he needed was to race in F1.

You might be right in suggesting that with his experience Alonso should have been quicker from the 'get go' but both he and Raikkonen struggled with the new Bridgestone tyres early in 2007.

OK then. I should have said that he was new to racing an F1 car.

I do think though there is a big jump between being a test driver, driving something round and round an empty circuit, and actually racing the things.. and this jump that Lewis made, was no less great than the jump Alonso made going from a Benetton to a McLaren.

So i still have no answer as to why Alonso, if he is the best driver as some believe, was unable to stamp his authority on the McLaren team by outpacing the rookie.

I agree insofar as Alonso should have performed better at Mclaren.

But that doesn't persuade me that Hamilton has proven himself to be a 'truly great' yet. He was incredibly lucky to step into the best car on the grid, which is why he had such an 'attitude problem' at first (believing he was incredibly good and not realising that he was incredibly lucky, as a rookie, to step into the best car).

2009 to my mind, proved the case.

As I said previously though, I think he's learning the lesson and is a far better driver for it.

[b19bry]

I make no excuses about being an ardent Alonso fan having met him on several occassions along with numerous other drivers and I take with a pinch of salt all of the remarks about him sulking if he doesn't get his own way, during conversations with him he does not come across as being so egotistical as some I could mention, with regards his driving skills I do not see anyone holding a candle to him with the possible exception of Michael Shumacher and I am sure you know what I think of his character and lack of sportsmanship, which is STILL going on, but he and Alonso have both won the WDC in what was certainly not the best car on the grid.

Thanks for your insights David, as one that has actually met Alonso that's really what I've been saying all along to rix.

I happen to agree with you as regards to Hamilton too !

Did you try the tv thing ?

[b19bry]

2009 to my mind, proved the case.

Indeed, in a 'crap' car he was ...............well 'crap' actually

[b19bry]

I'm not even saying you're wrong, I already said I don't know the guy so whether he sulks or not I don't really know.

OK, well whilst you reserve judgement until you've had a long sit down lunch with a person, the rest of the world, fairly or unfairly, tends to form opinions on people they see in the public eye. I think it's pretty natural actually. Might not always be right, but there you have it.

Sounds like you were a 'Sun' reader back in the UK then

[F1fanatic]

Yes, I was/am biased towards Alonso - I don't like him much as a racing driver because of his attitude, although I respect him.

I STILL think he's not a team player, and think I've been proven right - he DEMANDS that he be let past his team mate, even if he's no faster.

As I've said before, up until the latest incident I thought he was the most complete driver on the grid. During his time at Renault in 2008/9 he showed how a driver can make a difference.

[b19bry]

I do think though there is a big jump between being a test driver, driving something round and round an empty circuit, and actually racing the things.. and this jump that Lewis made, was no less great than the jump Alonso made going from a Benetton to a McLaren.

And of course you've test driven and competed in how many formula was it ?

[F1fanatic]

I do think though there is a big jump between being a test driver, driving something round and round an empty circuit, and actually racing the things.. and this jump that Lewis made, was no less great than the jump Alonso made going from a Benetton to a McLaren.

And of course you've test driven and competed in how many formula was it ?

Come on B19, we're here to discuss our views, not get personal.

I do realise that I've been aggressive in my opinions in the past, but have realised that it only stops conversation, it doesn't add anything.

[b19bry]

Yes, I was/am biased towards Alonso - I don't like him much as a racing driver because of his attitude, although I respect him.

I can't disagree with that.

I STILL think he's not a team player, and think I've been proven right - he DEMANDS that he be let past his team mate, even if he's no faster.

As I've said before, up until the latest incident I thought he was the most complete driver on the grid. During his time at Renault in 2008/9 he showed how a driver can make a difference.

I think he's no more or less a team player than Schumacher was.

He's absolutely driven some 'crap' cars and made them look much better than they were. He started off at Minardi for goodness sake.

[b19bry]

I do think though there is a big jump between being a test driver, driving something round and round an empty circuit, and actually racing the things.. and this jump that Lewis made, was no less great than the jump Alonso made going from a Benetton to a McLaren.

And of course you've test driven and competed in how many formula was it ?

Come on B19, we're here to discuss our views, not get personal.

I do realise that I've been aggressive in my opinions in the past, but have realised that it only stops conversation, it doesn't add anything.

Mmmm................ and post #112 and those directed at Yermanee weren't personal ?

Actually my comment isn't so much personal, I'm just pointing out Rix probably has no idea whether what he's saying is correct or not, it's just supposition

Edited October 28, 2010 by b19bry

[F1fanatic]

Yes, I was/am biased towards Alonso - I don't like him much as a racing driver because of his attitude, although I respect him.

I can't disagree with that.

I STILL think he's not a team player, and think I've been proven right - he DEMANDS that he be let past his team mate, even if he's no faster.

As I've said before, up until the latest incident I thought he was the most complete driver on the grid. During his time at Renault in 2008/9 he showed how a driver can make a difference.

I think he's no more or less a team player than Schumacher was.

He's absolutely driven some 'crap' cars and made them look much better than they were. He started off at Minardi for goodness sake.

Schumi never blamed the team when things went wrong. At the end of the 2006 season Alonso was blaming the team..... Even though they'd given him the car to win the 2005 WDC and the best car at the beginning of the 2006 season.

No, I disagree - Schumi was a team player, which is why the team loved him. Alonso is not.

[wackysleet]

Yes, I was/am biased towards Alonso - I don't like him much as a racing driver because of his attitude, although I respect him.

I STILL think he's not a team player, and think I've been proven right - he DEMANDS that he be let past his team mate, even if he's no faster.

As I've said before, up until the latest incident I thought he was the most complete driver on the grid. During his time at Renault in 2008/9 he showed how a driver can make a difference.

I think you are a little naive to really believe for a moment that any driver is a team player, I think it's dog eat dog with a caveat that if one driver is a long way behind on points with no chance he may assist his team mate but really, what can he do apart from adopting certain blocking tactics given the opportunity.

Massa stated last week that he would do everything he could to help Fernando, what bull--it was that, he needed to do his best to maintain his drive unless he has already signed for next year.

You made a comment about Jenson holding back from other attempts at passing Lewis, do you know for a fact that the radio message telling Jenson to conserve fuel was just that or was there something in Lewis contract or any top drivers contract to ensure that they got what they had contracted for, I don't know and neither is any other poster privvy to the deals that have been negotiated, it is all supposition as far as that is concerned.

[wackysleet]

F1

Schumi never blamed the team when things went wrong. At the end of the 2006 season Alonso was blaming the team..... Even though they'd given him the car to win the 2005 WDC and the best car at the beginning of the 2006 season.

No, I disagree - Schumi was a team player, which is why the team loved him. Alonso is not.

Michael was, is, and always will be a team player, Team Shumacher.

[F1fanatic]

Yes, I was/am biased towards Alonso - I don't like him much as a racing driver because of his attitude, although I respect him.

I STILL think he's not a team player, and think I've been proven right - he DEMANDS that he be let past his team mate, even if he's no faster.

As I've said before, up until the latest incident I thought he was the most complete driver on the grid. During his time at Renault in 2008/9 he showed how a driver can make a difference.

I think you are a little naive to really believe for a moment that any driver is a team player, I think it's dog eat dog with a caveat that if one driver is a long way behind on points with no chance he may assist his team mate but really, what can he do apart from adopting certain blocking tactics given the opportunity.

Massa stated last week that he would do everything he could to help Fernando, what bull--it was that, he needed to do his best to maintain his drive unless he has already signed for next year.

You made a comment about Jenson holding back from other attempts at passing Lewis, do you know for a fact that the radio message telling Jenson to conserve fuel was just that or was there something in Lewis contract or any top drivers contract to ensure that they got what they had contracted for, I don't know and neither is any other poster privvy to the deals that have been negotiated, it is all supposition as far as that is concerned.

Agree about 'team players' to a large extent, but some drivers are canny enough to get the whole team behind them....

I didn't comment in the way you suggest about Jenson passing Lewis. I said he tried to pass but realised that Lewis was fighting hard. Jenson made the decision not to risk an accident with a team mate - it had nothing to do with team orders. Somebody else made the comment that Jenson had been told to conserve fuel and implied it was team orders.

It was an entirely different situation with Alonso/Massa, where there is no doubt it was team orders.

[b19bry]

Schumi never blamed the team when things went wrong.

That would have been a little counterproductive since 'Schumi' was the team !

No, I disagree - Schumi was a team player, which is why the team loved him.

Well since Ferrari hadn't won a Championship in 20 years and then suddenly win 4-5 on the trot, the fact the team love him is not surprising.:jap:

[wackysleet]

F1.

Agree about 'team players' to a large extent, but some drivers are canny enough to get the whole team behind them....

I didn't comment in the way you suggest about Jenson passing Lewis. I said he tried to pass but realised that Lewis was fighting hard. Jenson made the decision not to risk an accident with a team mate - it had nothing to do with team orders. Somebody else made the comment that Jenson had been told to conserve fuel and implied it was team orders.

It was an entirely different situation with Alonso/Massa, where there is no doubt it was team orders.

I never suggested your comments were ever anything other than your opinion of what you perceived to be the case, I put another slant on it for the simple reason THAT I don't know that was the case or IF IT WAS TEAM ORDERS and I suspect you nor anyone else knows what goes on behind the scenes, we are all guessing .

[b19bry]

I never suggested your comments were ever anything other than your opinion of what you perceived to be the case, I put another slant on it for the simple reason THAT I don't know that was the case or IF IT WAS TEAM ORDERS and I suspect you nor anyone else knows what goes on behind the scenes, we are all guessing .

I think it was pretty clearly a team order to let Alonso pass in Germany but to my mind fully justified. Vettel was in a challenging position and Alonso needed to score well to get into the WDC hunt, it was really a 'no-brainer' to let him through and so it has proved.

[rixalex]

I make no excuses about being an ardent Alonso fan having met him on several occassions along with numerous other drivers and I take with a pinch of salt all of the remarks about him sulking if he doesn't get his own way, during conversations with him he does not come across as being so egotistical as some I could mention, with regards his driving skills I do not see anyone holding a candle to him with the possible exception of Michael Shumacher and I am sure you know what I think of his character and lack of sportsmanship, which is STILL going on, but he and Alonso have both won the WDC in what was certainly not the best car on the grid.

If you are at liberty to reveal David, i'd certainly love to hear the background details to your meet and greets.

[rixalex]

OK then. I should have said that he was new to racing an F1 car.

I do think though there is a big jump between being a test driver, driving something round and round an empty circuit, and actually racing the things.. and this jump that Lewis made, was no less great than the jump Alonso made going from a Benetton to a McLaren.

So i still have no answer as to why Alonso, if he is the best driver as some believe, was unable to stamp his authority on the McLaren team by outpacing the rookie.

I agree insofar as Alonso should have performed better at Mclaren.

But that doesn't persuade me that Hamilton has proven himself to be a 'truly great' yet. He was incredibly lucky to step into the best car on the grid, which is why he had such an 'attitude problem' at first (believing he was incredibly good and not realising that he was incredibly lucky, as a rookie, to step into the best car).

2009 to my mind, proved the case.

As I said previously though, I think he's learning the lesson and is a far better driver for it.

Yes i agree.

[rixalex]

And of course you've test driven and competed in how many formula was it ?

Come on B19, we're here to discuss our views, not get personal.

I do realise that I've been aggressive in my opinions in the past, but have realised that it only stops conversation, it doesn't add anything.

Mmmm................ and post #112 and those directed at Yermanee weren't personal ?

Actually my comment isn't so much personal, I'm just pointing out Rix probably has no idea whether what he's saying is correct or not, it's just supposition

It is personal, it is rude, and it is uncalled for. Same goes for your Sun reader comment. You continually insist that all you want to do is discuss the driving, but then swing straight back to this whole business of trying to dismiss and discredit the views of others - in this case me.

If you wanted to point out that I probably have no idea whether what i am saying is correct or not, why not also point out that you yourself have no idea whether what you are saying is correct or not, and that your opinion is also mere supposition?

[b19bry]

And of course you've test driven and competed in how many formula was it ?

Come on B19, we're here to discuss our views, not get personal.

I do realise that I've been aggressive in my opinions in the past, but have realised that it only stops conversation, it doesn't add anything.

Mmmm................ and post #112 and those directed at Yermanee weren't personal ?

Actually my comment isn't so much personal, I'm just pointing out Rix probably has no idea whether what he's saying is correct or not, it's just supposition

It is personal, it is rude, and it is uncalled for. Same goes for your Sun reader comment. You continually insist that all you want to do is discuss the driving, but then swing straight back to this whole business of trying to dismiss and discredit the views of others - in this case me.

If you wanted to point out that I probably have no idea whether what i am saying is correct or not, why not also point out that you yourself have no idea whether what you are saying is correct or not, and that your opinion is also mere supposition?

mmm........but I'm not presenting my suppositions as 'fact' here !

[F1fanatic]

Well its been an exciting night on the forum tonight! Hopefully its because the Korean GP fired us all up again.

Alonso? Webber? Hamilton? Who knows who will win the WDC?

Meanwhile we all have our own biases and enjoy arguing our differences.

Personally, Webber for the WDC!! (Although I doubt it will happen )

[b19bry]

Well its been an exciting night on the forum tonight! Hopefully its because the Korean GP fired us all up again.

Alonso? Webber? Hamilton? Who knows who will win the WDC?

Meanwhile we all have our own biases and enjoy arguing our differences.

Personally, Webber for the WDC!! (Although I doubt it will happen )

Totally agree F1 and I'm with you on Webber

[rixalex]

mmm........but I'm not presenting my suppositions as 'fact' here !

As neither am i. Read my signature message.

[rixalex]

2009 to my mind, proved the case.

Indeed, in a 'crap' car he was ...............well 'crap' actually

Not a vintage year for Lewis by any means. But his finishing position for the season was 5th, behind the two Brawns and the two Red Bulls, and he had five podiums, including two race wins. For a crap car, that doesn't sound too bad. And how much better did the likes of Kimi, Massa and Alonso do that year? OK, forget Kimi... he was on the lollipops by then.

[PattayaParent]

F1.

Agree about 'team players' to a large extent, but some drivers are canny enough to get the whole team behind them....

I didn't comment in the way you suggest about Jenson passing Lewis. I said he tried to pass but realised that Lewis was fighting hard. Jenson made the decision not to risk an accident with a team mate - it had nothing to do with team orders. Somebody else made the comment that Jenson had been told to conserve fuel and implied it was team orders.

It was an entirely different situation with Alonso/Massa, where there is no doubt it was team orders.

I never suggested your comments were ever anything other than your opinion of what you perceived to be the case, I put another slant on it for the simple reason THAT I don't know that was the case or IF IT WAS TEAM ORDERS and I suspect you nor anyone else knows what goes on behind the scenes, we are all guessing .

Hamilton was also told to conserve fuel after Button had tried to overtake him. His comment broadcast on team radio was "Has Jenson been told also?"

[wackysleet]

F1.

Agree about 'team players' to a large extent, but some drivers are canny enough to get the whole team behind them....

I didn't comment in the way you suggest about Jenson passing Lewis. I said he tried to pass but realised that Lewis was fighting hard. Jenson made the decision not to risk an accident with a team mate - it had nothing to do with team orders. Somebody else made the comment that Jenson had been told to conserve fuel and implied it was team orders.

It was an entirely different situation with Alonso/Massa, where there is no doubt it was team orders.

I never suggested your comments were ever anything other than your opinion of what you perceived to be the case, I put another slant on it for the simple reason THAT I don't know that was the case or IF IT WAS TEAM ORDERS and I suspect you nor anyone else knows what goes on behind the scenes, we are all guessing .

Hamilton was also told to conserve fuel after Button had tried to overtake him. His comment broadcast on team radio was "Has Jenson been told also?"

Agreed but I am always sceptical about these things as I think it could be hiding a lot of things that were previously agreed upon between driver and team although I am not saying that was the case , just could have been.

[rixalex]

Agreed but I am always sceptical about these things as I think it could be hiding a lot of things that were previously agreed upon between driver and team although I am not saying that was the case , just could have been.

I think you have good cause to be suspicious wacky. I am too.

One thing i will say though, and this doesn't concern what is written in the rules, it concerns my only personal feelings on the matter. And that is, for me, team orders come in many different forms. There are some i find acceptable in terms of being what i consider within the bounds of sportsmanship, and there are others i find unacceptable.

Telling drivers that if they reach a certain point in the race, getting towards the latter stages, that they will accept the position they are in, rather than risk both drivers ending up DNF, makes sense to me and still allows for drivers to determine to a large degree their success in the race.

Telling a driver who is mathematically out of the championship, that if necessary they will have to concede a place to their team mate who is still in with a shout, is also perfectly reasonable to me. Once again, a driver's success is still within their control as it is they who are responsible for how many points they have scored throughout the season.

Simply ordering drivers to swap position when those conditions do not apply is for me unacceptable. It's crossing a line.