Thai Red Shirts Declare 'Class War'

[jayboy]

All these changes the Red supporters are screaming for the current government to implement

The current government is copying and implementing a great many of Thaksin's populist policies.

I'm always puzzled at the criticism that a politician didn't "really" care about his constituents but just wanted to win votes.Isn't that what politicians do? Do Obama, Sarkozy,Brown "really" care? Certainly it requires a real stretch of imagination to believe that even a good guy like Abhisit "really" cares about the rural majority.

yes, this govt is putting in place many of the populist programs that Thaksin's govt came up with- why weren't they already in place? Thaksin talked, aside from some minor programs and the 30 baht scheme, never followed thru, or the programs were corrupted by local officials- something this govt is trying to address - perhaps thats why they are meeting such resistance to the rice program. As for most politicians not caring - couldn't agree more. However, Thaksin is calling on "his" people to put themselves in the street- calling for a revolution- while he lies around in luxury. Bit hypocritical, no?

Many times, the "anti-red" posters here, including me, have said if the Reds would only disavow Thaksin, they would have a legitimate claim to make. But as it stands, their main goal continues to be to get a pardon for Thaksin, including a return of his money.

They have a legitimate case whether they disavow Thaksin or not.But you are of course right in that Thaksin is a divisive figure who has poisoned the political atmosphere.I'm not sure you are correct in stating their main goal is Thaksin's pardon and the restitution of his money - but obviously the Reds have a "brand" problem.How this all works out remains to be seen.But time will move on and Thaksin will be further marginalised.The debate isn't really all about Thaksin.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

You are ignoring a fact - Thaksin was PM for five years, with an overwhelming mandate from the public. What did he do for the poor while in office? Funneled money thru the village headmen (no wonder they love him) for some roads to be paved. 30 baht health care plan with no long term planning. What about education? The guy appointed himself Minister of Ed - what positive changes did he bring?

It's pretty fruitless to debate this here. What matters is that the (alleged) beneficiaries of his policies themselves perceive his actions as having been beneficial to them, to an extent never seen before or since; therefore they support him and vote for him.

It's not hard to find fault with some or even most things Thaksin did. What you or I think about that matters none. What matters is what a significant percentage of the electorate thinks.

[Jerrytheyoung]

The situation in Thailand today cannot be compared to the french situation more than 200 years ago.

Most of Issan farming family has some links with Bankokians, because they are obliged to send the youngers to "Krunthep". Taxis, clothes factories, electronic factories, spas...are utilising this poorly qualified workforce.

So peasants and low bangkokian class are united through families.

Education is a very important aspect, but is only one issue of the problem. A policy must be developed including also other aspects: development of Agriculture in order to set it at international standards, irrigation, delocalisation of Industry in the stricken area in order to fix the population and avoid to cumulate the issues in Bangkok and its suburb (which will be probably far more expansive than the delocalisation)....and immediately some measures to subsidise the Northern population (Rice and Rubber prices)...a very significant part of the budget must be dedicated to the development of the Northern regions and not all in the development of an Huge Bangkok: there is a frustrating imbalance, the creation of such a megapole is in itself very dangerous and bring forward huge social issues far more complex than the current ones....

Fair comment but I think the integration of Bangkok and the N.E as gone much further than you suggest, that is beyond the provision of low skilled labour.One can argue about the extent of this but not about the trend which is clearly towards further and closer integration.I don't think subsidies have a major role to play in the countryside but certainly the subsidies (education, infrastructure, health) to the pampered middle class urban population should be reduced and eventually eliminated.

Yes, Countryside needs important investments: because of the dry season there is only one harvest per year instead of 2 in Southern Thailand. Investments are required in irrigation, solar pumps. Most of farmers cannot invest in a tractor, a large part of the fields are not farmed every year because they cannot make it physically with only their old tick tack. The income per family is too low for investing in anything.

In each village, cooperatives or other association formulae have to be organised. From there, investments (tractors, harvesting machines, pick up...) have to be done.

Also in order to fix the population in Issan, the Food Industry must be delocalised close to the raw materials and not in Bangkok suburb...

Support to Agriculture (Universities specialists...) must be more developped in order to diversify and develop new products.

All this require money and subsidises and a political will above to make Issan part of a Great Thailand.

[hammered]

All these changes the Red supporters are screaming for the current government to implement

The current government is copying and implementing a great many of Thaksin's populist policies.

I'm always puzzled at the criticism that a politician didn't "really" care about his constituents but just wanted to win votes.Isn't that what politicians do? Do Obama, Sarkozy,Brown "really" care? Certainly it requires a real stretch of imagination to believe that even a good guy like Abhisit "really" cares about the rural majority.

yes, this govt is putting in place many of the populist programs that Thaksin's govt came up with- why weren't they already in place? Thaksin talked, aside from some minor programs and the 30 baht scheme, never followed thru, or the programs were corrupted by local officials- something this govt is trying to address - perhaps thats why they are meeting such resistance to the rice program. As for most politicians not caring - couldn't agree more. However, Thaksin is calling on "his" people to put themselves in the street- calling for a revolution- while he lies around in luxury. Bit hypocritical, no?

Many times, the "anti-red" posters here, including me, have said if the Reds would only disavow Thaksin, they would have a legitimate claim to make. But as it stands, their main goal continues to be to get a pardon for Thaksin, including a return of his money.

They have a legitimate case whether they disavow Thaksin or not.But you are of course right in that Thaksin is a divisive figure who has poisoned the political atmosphere.I'm not sure you are correct in stating their main goal is Thaksin's pardon and the restitution of his money - but obviously the Reds have a "brand" problem.How this all works out remains to be seen.But time will move on and Thaksin will be further marginalised.The debate isn't really all about Thaksin.

There are contradictions on all sides but that uis nothing new in either poltics or at times of change and this a long period of substantial change for Thailand of which Thaksin is a part. In his mind that part is big in others minds that may be lesser. However, at times of change there are opportunities for anyone willing to take a risk. They dont always come off but Thaksin was always a risk taker. What will be interesting will be if the reds suceed uin getting a PTP government back in and then what the gopvernment does vis-a-vis redsitribution of wealth and education bearing in mind the very PTP MPs potentailly become endangered by the rural poor becoming better educaterd or wealthier. It would also be interesting to see what they do vis-a-vis Thaksin. Sometimes it easier tio be on the street protesting than to be in power having to make the hard decisons.

[jayboy]

You blame it on the 'failures of the elite", well it's still Mr.Thaksin who tried to take full advantage and failed so bad

and still he doesn't want to take the defeat but keeps n leading with lies and deceit - undoubtedly - unless these facts are proven wrong, with convincing facts - till then it'lll remain as is, sir!

Oh dear, if I had wanted to do A "Private Eye" parody of this poster I couldn't have done better than this.

Anyway I suppose it's all about living in one's comfort zone...trashing Thaksin mindlessly without any thought of context or significance.Saves thinking through the hard questions I suppose.

[Netfan]

They have a legitimate case whether they disavow Thaksin or not.But you are of course right in that Thaksin is a divisive figure who has poisoned the political atmosphere.I'm not sure you are correct in stating their main goal is Thaksin's pardon and the restitution of his money - but obviously the Reds have a "brand" problem.How this all works out remains to be seen.But time will move on and Thaksin will be further marginalised.The debate isn't really all about Thaksin.

Dr. Taksin is quoted in The Nation today, "I apologise to the people of Bangkok for the traffic congestion but it would never ease until the red shirts win and I will return to solve the problem with sufficient subways and trains,"

In his interview with TV Channel 9 last night, the prime minister said there were several demands from the Thaksin camp. For example, Thaksin's legal adviser Noppadon Pattama said he wanted an amnesty for the former premier.

Not all about Thaksin? The poor of this country have legitimate concerns / complaints no matter where they are from - Isaan, the South, Bangkok. What the Reds don't have is a legitimate case to bring about change as long as Thaksin is #1.

[TAWP]

Another mis-informed soul. Here are the results of the last election:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2007

PPP: 26,293,456 votes (36.63%)

Democrats: 21,745,696 (30.30%)

Now, tell me ...with nearly 5 million and 6% more votes, who won the election?

STOP LIEING!

You clearly don't know what the numbers mean. You think 71 million Thais voted in the election???

People's Power Party - 14,071,799 - 39.60%

Democrat Party - 14,084,265 - 39.63%

The proportional vote, out of 35,535,767 votes.

[Jerrytheyoung]

MPs potentailly become endangered by the rural poor becoming better educaterd or wealthier. It would also be interesting to see what they do vis-a-vis Thaksin. Sometimes it easier tio be on the street protesting than to be in power having to make the hard decisons.

agree partly. As the debate has been changed from Thaksin issues to "Class War", a Pandora box is open: the individual issue is no more central and is of poor interest relative to the future of Thailand. So now, we should sideline definitively individuals issues (Thaksin and Abhisit, MPs....). It is of no interest.

What to do?

Ideas have to be promoted in order to make a platform, and promote those ideas. Then, politicians will have to position themselves in front of this platform: this is the most useful thing we can do in those circumstances. Please bring on the debate all positive ideas. This forum is read, the positive ideas will progress in the mentality....

[Pakboong]

History has proved that the people always win.

that's cos history is written by the winners for the people, to keep them in line...hardly gonna say 'you lost, we won' now are they?

Care to name a country where 'the poor' have won and are no longer poor relative to a ruling class? No...thought not

Trotskyist tripe.

it isn't a class war in the Marxist-Leninist sense. capitalists are not the bad people here.

capitalism isn't bad at all, don't have to mean exploitation but choice and chance. and that you actually have to work, what the reds already do, the farmers like the new money businessmen, unlike some other lame pencil pusher in a oversize bureaucracy state and officialdom, the home of the old money, with a feudal hierarchy, where you get your job with connections and by your family name, to leech the money of without providing much efficiency or be actually needed or useful.

It is not capitalism itself but capitalism as the form of offense that the most powerful team uses as its method of controlling the game. The outcome will not be determined however, by who dies with the most toys but how angry one side becomes with the antics of the other.

Somebody said in an earlier post that the people always win. Looking back, that seems reasonably accurate on the surface at least. Those native to Zimbabwe think they have won even though most of the rest of us clearly think they have lost.

[brahmburgers]

As far as I've heard, there's been no mention by the Reds about the plight of hill tribers. Am I wrong?

Hill Tribers number in the hundreds of thousands and are poorer, on average, than the poor people who are being paid by Thaksin to attend the rallies. They're essentially Thai, having been born and bred here, but are often treated like dirt, and many have no hope of getting a Thai ID card because of xenophobia which is an indelible part of the Thai psyche.

About Education... One post (I was looking after but cannot find it), was stating that the children were spending most of their study time learning Thai particularly because the writing is very complex. So, they have no time for other studies and the result is quite poor, underlining the fact that they are isolated from the rest of the world in this Globalisation period. I would like to make a parallel and a suggestion to my Thai friends. Long time ago, Korea has a similar issue: they have their own language (turco-Altaic group) quite different from Chinese but were obliged to use the Chinese ideogram for writing. The King Sejong found that only an Elite was able to communicate by writing, it was unacceptable. He created a Committee for solving this issue. In 1452, the Committee presented its report and proposal: the "Hangul" a phonetic alphabet comprising 11 vowels and 13 consonants. The Elite fought against the introduction of Hangul during more than a Century. Today the Koreans are quite proud of the "Hangul" which is one of the most performing alphabet in the world. Similarly, the Japanese, more recently, have simplified their ideograms...

May I suggest to my Thai Friends to look after this issue and make some researches in order to modernise their writing to the benefit of most of the future population.....

Great insight. I've been proposing that concept for as long as I've been struggling with trying to learn the Thai language. It's not just me and my farang comrades. I asked my 6 yr old hilltribe step son the other evening; which alphabet is easier, Thai or English? ...and he told me without hesitation, 'English.' Greeks, Italians, English, Japanese, Koreans, and probably a whole lot other cultures have gone through the sometimes painful process of modernizing their alphabets. Thailand should also! They can still maintain their archaic alphabet for awhile concurrently, but the current alphabet has lots of room for improvements. As it stands, there are about 10 letters that are defunct and rarely ever used. There are many many redundancies in sounds (many letters for the P sound, many for T also). Transliteration of Thai in to English is another ridiculous protocol (actually as many protocols as there are publishers), with all the silly h's added here and there. LOTS OF ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. But alas, it won't happen in our or our childrens' lifetimes.

According to the Post, one of the red leaders is now asking that the reds don't pay taxes and to surrender their ID cards and resign their Thai citizenship. I guess they would then be here illegally. They can move onto Dubai and stay at their leaders home. He loves them and should be able to take great care of them.

...so, they'll wind up having to do border runs every 13 days, and give up ownership of their vehicles and properties, and without citizenship, they can't legally have an electric service account or a hard-line telephone account.

[lannarebirth]

All these changes the Red supporters are screaming for the current government to implement

The current government is copying and implementing a great many of Thaksin's populist policies.

I'm always puzzled at the criticism that a politician didn't "really" care about his constituents but just wanted to win votes.Isn't that what politicians do? Do Obama, Sarkozy,Brown "really" care? Certainly it requires a real stretch of imagination to believe that even a good guy like Abhisit "really" cares about the rural majority.

yes, this govt is putting in place many of the populist programs that Thaksin's govt came up with- why weren't they already in place? Thaksin talked, aside from some minor programs and the 30 baht scheme, never followed thru, or the programs were corrupted by local officials- something this govt is trying to address - perhaps thats why they are meeting such resistance to the rice program. As for most politicians not caring - couldn't agree more. However, Thaksin is calling on "his" people to put themselves in the street- calling for a revolution- while he lies around in luxury. Bit hypocritical, no?

Many times, the "anti-red" posters here, including me, have said if the Reds would only disavow Thaksin, they would have a legitimate claim to make. But as it stands, their main goal continues to be to get a pardon for Thaksin, including a return of his money.

There's very little original policy out there. Chuan came up with the precursor to the 30baht health scheme and OTOP. He had trouble implementing them and "selling" it. Thaksin did much better on the selling aspect but created something unsustainable. Abhisit continues to refine , upgrade and make the system sustainable. In the US sometimes it takes 10 years to see the result of policy changes. Often politicians take credit for thje policies of other administartions. Not much different here in that regard.

Edited March 20, 2010 by lannarebirth

[mazeltov]

Another mis-informed soul. Here are the results of the last election:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2007

PPP: 26,293,456 votes (36.63%)

Democrats: 21,745,696 (30.30%)

Now, tell me ...with nearly 5 million and 6% more votes, who won the election?

STOP LIEING!

You clearly don't know what the numbers mean. You think 71 million Thais voted in the election???

People's Power Party - 14,071,799 - 39.60%

Democrat Party - 14,084,265 - 39.63%

The proportional vote, out of 35,535,767 votes.

isn't telling half of the truth also some kind of a lie?

you ignoring that fact that the voters had also up to three direct candidates to vote for and that the vote for for the direct candidate has a bigger impact which parties at what strengths will sit in the end in the parliament. (400 seats of 480 seats total)

the proportional 2nd vote (or the 3rd/4th), where your figures are coming from, has a lesser impact. (80 seats of 480 seats total).

that vote can be also placed by the voter strategically, for example with the intention to have more balance in the parliament or give one party not to much power, you don't have to give the 2nd vote for the same party of the candidate of your first choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_voting

[TAWP]

isn't telling half of the truth also some kind of a lie?

Try reading the post I was responding to, he tried to LIE and say that PPP got more votes than the Democrats (by a big margin) while ignoring that the numbers was NOT the number of voters, but the constituency population [worth], which is NOT the same thing.

That is like saying that 100% of the people in Florida voted for Bush 2000 since all the electoral votes went to him. It is a direct failure to understand the process and the level of support a party received. In an attempt to try to pretend that the support for PPP was much bigger than it was.

Can we all agree that both PPP and the Democrats got basically the same amount of true votes?

[TAWP]

that vote can be also placed by the voter strategically, for example with the intention to have more balance in the parliament or give one party not to much power, you don't have to give the 2nd vote for the same party of the candidate of your first choice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_voting

That is not how the election in Thailand is done, you don't have several votes per person in the same election.

What the process has is a mix of both constituencies and popular vote as a way to populate the parliament, but it only relates to how the votes are calculated. The popular vote adjustment is to offset issues with constituencies being incorrectly valued in terms of MPs compared to their population.

[Samuian]

You blame it on the 'failures of the elite", well it's still Mr.Thaksin who tried to take full advantage and failed so bad

and still he doesn't want to take the defeat but keeps n leading with lies and deceit - undoubtedly - unless these facts are proven wrong, with convincing facts - till then it'lll remain as is, sir!

Oh dear, if I had wanted to do A "Private Eye" parody of this poster I couldn't have done better than this.

Anyway I suppose it's all about living in one's comfort zone...trashing Thaksin mindlessly without any thought of context or significance.Saves thinking through the hard questions I suppose.

Still resorting to argumentum ad persona which is the weakest of all argumentation,

cause it seeks to avoid s the proper answer caused by wrong perception of an argument

being under the influence of the notion of pending defeat!

Nobody needs to "trash Thaksin" for the sake of winning the argument, he "trashed" himself!

That is the problem and the wrong turn in arguing this case!

Cheap defense, I asked for FACTS which prove the innocence of this man,

then a may obey, but till then nothing, specially not defending once stance in resorting

to "Argumentum ad Hominem", it's like trying to shoot an F16 down with cotton balls...

but never mind.., I see how hard one tries...but it doesn't change certain facts', it never will!

Edited March 20, 2010 by Samuian

[animatic]

There is a great difference bwteen:

High Class, Some class, Low Class and No Class.

It is all about acting well and how you treat others of all financial levels.

And money in pocket has nothing to do with how those impressions can be made.

I have met extremely poor people who acted with the utmost class and integrity

And people with way too much money and not a shred of class to their name.

Some rich people give Low class people a bad name. No names mentioned....

On the other hand under and upper classes do exist financially,

some people have excelled longer as families than others.

Some people were excelling until one generation had an accident or similar

and family prosperity growth was retarded.

Some people just don't have the genetic strength to compete adequately,

not a crime nor, a lessening of value as people, just less capability available to use.

Some people are indeed denied a chance to excel and that of course is unjust,

and the ones most often denying them that chance are rich and low class in the bargain.

Evil often brings a full pocketbook, but a bankrupt morality... A poor trade IMHO.

Within each group is a typical cross section of the same four divisions in acting well

some people have class and others don't and their money is not the delimiting factor.

I would rather hang out with Ad Carabao and Sek Loso than your average hiso disco-head

upwardly mobile, dress to impress, nouveau riche movers and shakers,

because they are just trying to be regular people, even if their work makes them well known figures.

[jayboy]

You blame it on the 'failures of the elite", well it's still Mr.Thaksin who tried to take full advantage and failed so bad

and still he doesn't want to take the defeat but keeps n leading with lies and deceit - undoubtedly - unless these facts are proven wrong, with convincing facts - till then it'lll remain as is, sir!

Oh dear, if I had wanted to do A "Private Eye" parody of this poster I couldn't have done better than this.

Anyway I suppose it's all about living in one's comfort zone...trashing Thaksin mindlessly without any thought of context or significance.Saves thinking through the hard questions I suppose.

Still resorting to argumentum ad persona which is the weakest of all argumentation,

cause it seeks to avoid s the proper answer caused by wrong perception of an argument

being under the influence of the notion of pending defeat!

Nobody needs to "trash Thaksin" for the sake of winning the argument, he "trashed" himself!

That is the problem and the wrong turn in arguing this case!

Cheap defense, I asked for FACTS which prove the innocence of this man,

then a may obey, but till then nothing, specially not defending once stance in resorting

to "Argumentum ad Hominem", it's like trying to shoot an F16 down with cotton balls...

but never mind.., I see how hard one tries...but it doesn't change certain facts', it never will!

Is this the context and significance I was asking for?

[Ricardo]

Yes, Countryside needs important investments: because of the dry season there is only one harvest per year instead of 2 in Southern Thailand. Investments are required in irrigation, solar pumps. Most of farmers cannot invest in a tractor, a large part of the fields are not farmed every year because they cannot make it physically with only their old tick tack. The income per family is too low for investing in anything.

In each village, cooperatives or other association formulae have to be organised. From there, investments (tractors, harvesting machines, pick up...) have to be done.

Also in order to fix the population in Issan, the Food Industry must be delocalised close to the raw materials and not in Bangkok suburb...

Support to Agriculture (Universities specialists...) must be more developped in order to diversify and develop new products.

All this require money and subsidises and a political will above to make Issan part of a Great Thailand.

Not just Issan, even Thaksin's home-province of Chiang Mai needs more investment, in irrigation. Our own village has perhaps 20% under cultivation, for the 2nd-crop this year, reason being an amphur-wide water-shortage.

[Jerrytheyoung]

I repeat again; the debate on Thaksin, Abhisit... is useless and sterile now: it is just a psychodram in which you let off your steam... No interest and boring ... plus sour comments between us on some nationals...It is really of poor interest and not at the height that the events should expect we do and that the Thai Community expect from us.

Most of the posters are expats and cannot vote but we can help our Thai Friends and some of us have interests (including family ones)in this Country that we love. The debate must overpass the individuals, the old Thai political clique is non credible in its whole, but in such circumstances a new generation of leaders may surface on both sides. Today there is an opportunity things can change, we must not sabotage it by sterile and egocentric discussion.

Let us put on the table a consistent set of proposals that cannnot be ignored....This forum is organised by an important media, it is read and has some influence. We have to use this tool on a positive way.

To this forum Community thank you .....

[Jerrytheyoung]

Yes, Countryside needs important investments: because of the dry season there is only one harvest per year instead of 2 in Southern Thailand. Investments are required in irrigation, solar pumps. Most of farmers cannot invest in a tractor, a large part of the fields are not farmed every year because they cannot make it physically with only their old tick tack. The income per family is too low for investing in anything.

In each village, cooperatives or other association formulae have to be organised. From there, investments (tractors, harvesting machines, pick up...) have to be done.

Also in order to fix the population in Issan, the Food Industry must be delocalised close to the raw materials and not in Bangkok suburb...

Support to Agriculture (Universities specialists...) must be more developped in order to diversify and develop new products.

All this require money and subsidises and a political will above to make Issan part of a Great Thailand.

Not just Issan, even Thaksin's home-province of Chiang Mai needs more investment, in irrigation. Our own village has perhaps 20% under cultivation, for the 2nd-crop this year, reason being an amphur-wide water-shortage.

I do not know very well Chiang Mai region that I have visited only as a tourist, so I avoid to talk about what I do not know. But I agree fully with you: over my Issan example, the project must be extended to the whole Country where it is definitively required. Immediately a substantial budget should be announced and a Committee created for implementing a large policy, agriculture and as we have in France, "developpement du Territoire" (Territory development and management) with one Minister in charge to manage and follow up.

[lannarebirth]

I repeat again; the debate on Thaksin, Abhisit... is useless and sterile now: it is just a psychodram in which you let off your steam... No interest and boring ... plus sour comments between us on some nationals...It is really of poor interest and not at the height that the events should expect we do and that the Thai Community expect from us.

Most of the posters are expats and cannot vote but we can help our Thai Friends and some of us have interests (including family ones)in this Country that we love. The debate must overpass the individuals, the old Thai political clique is non credible in its whole, but in such circumstances a new generation of leaders may surface on both sides. Today there is an opportunity things can change, we must not sabotage it by sterile and egocentric discussion.

Let us put on the table a consistent set of proposals that cannnot be ignored....This forum is organised by an important media, it is read and has some influence. We have to use this tool on a positive way.

To this forum Community thank you .....

I think most people here are aware of the giant elephants running around in the background of this political drama. It's just that most of us are not bloodthirsty and out for retribution of all that has gone on before. I think most think that if an ABRUPT change comes from that quarter than many many peoples blood will spill and most of us will be on our way out of here. Instead we focus on incremental positive change that can be accomplished in the here and now. Thaksin is an immediate impediment to that change and Abhisit, thusfar, has been a facilitator. maybe all that changes next week, but there's no sense focusing solely on the macro elements and ignoring the micro.

[gregb]

The debate isn't really all about Thaksin.

You're terribly naive jayboy.

The debate is only about Thaksin. The red cult could have anything they wanted if they simply disavowed their saviour. The reds are trying to make people believe it is about something else, because defending a convicted felon is an extremely difficult proposition. But no solution will be acceptable to them unless it includes the exoneration of Thaksin.

That isn't to say that individual people don't have legitimate concerns, but those CAN NOT be addressed through the red movement. Those concerns can only be addressed after Thaksin, and by extension the red movement, is eliminated.

Show me a group of reds who have publicly denounced Thaksin continuously and vocally, and I will accept your argument that it is not about Thaksin. Otherwise, you are simply spreading disinformation.

Edited March 20, 2010 by gregb

[animatic]

Yes, Countryside needs important investments: because of the dry season there is only one harvest per year instead of 2 in Southern Thailand. Investments are required in irrigation, solar pumps. Most of farmers cannot invest in a tractor, a large part of the fields are not farmed every year because they cannot make it physically with only their old tick tack. The income per family is too low for investing in anything.

In each village, cooperatives or other association formulae have to be organised. From there, investments (tractors, harvesting machines, pick up...) have to be done.

Also in order to fix the population in Issan, the Food Industry must be delocalised close to the raw materials and not in Bangkok suburb...

Support to Agriculture (Universities specialists...) must be more developped in order to diversify and develop new products.

All this require money and subsidises and a political will above to make Issan part of a Great Thailand.

Not just Issan, even Thaksin's home-province of Chiang Mai needs more investment, in irrigation. Our own village has perhaps 20% under cultivation, for the 2nd-crop this year, reason being an amphur-wide water-shortage.

Yes Chaing mai certainly does need more investment,

and when the Prime Minister trys to go to Chaing Mai to talk about things

his life is threatened, and for the safety of OTHERS lest innocents die

in an attempt on his life he cancels. Very classy these local thugs.

This is how Red Shirts bring services and improvements to Chaing mai.

They don't, because Thaksin is not doing it personally... sheer idiocy.

[Jerrytheyoung]

I repeat again; the debate on Thaksin, Abhisit... is useless and sterile now: it is just a psychodram in which you let off your steam... No interest and boring ... plus sour comments between us on some nationals...It is really of poor interest and not at the height that the events should expect we do and that the Thai Community expect from us.

Most of the posters are expats and cannot vote but we can help our Thai Friends and some of us have interests (including family ones)in this Country that we love. The debate must overpass the individuals, the old Thai political clique is non credible in its whole, but in such circumstances a new generation of leaders may surface on both sides. Today there is an opportunity things can change, we must not sabotage it by sterile and egocentric discussion.

Let us put on the table a consistent set of proposals that cannnot be ignored....This forum is organised by an important media, it is read and has some influence. We have to use this tool on a positive way.

To this forum Community thank you .....

I think most people here are aware of the giant elephants running around in the background of this political drama. It's just that most of us are not bloodthirsty and out for retribution of all that has gone on before. I think most think that if an ABRUPT change comes from that quarter than many many peoples blood will spill and most of us will be on our way out of here. Instead we focus on incremental positive change that can be accomplished in the here and now. Thaksin is an immediate impediment to that change and Abhisit, thusfar, has been a facilitator. maybe all that changes next week, but there's no sense focusing solely on the macro elements and ignoring the micro.

As expatriate, we should be more reserved about giving an opinion on Individual leaders, we should let this to the Thais: more, it is occupying more of this forum and this gives a very negative image of the Expat community: we look like spending our time ridiculing each other. From time to time the arguments are close to insults...particularly, I have assisted to a very low exchange of posts in which our US clleagues were under some unjustified attacks. As everywhere, you have a ratio of idiots and cultured persons and this is very similar throughout our world.

A little of dignity and mutual respect. Our expat community has more to win than to loose with such an attitude.

As I have already stated, the debate on individual leaders is overpassed in the current situation as the thema is no more on the future of the wealth of T but "Class War". We have to seize this opportunity and talk about what has to be changed for the benefit of Thailand and for trying to find an honourable exit to this Crisis. My order of priority is different from yours, I do not consider that 'who is leading" is fundamental (individuals are micro in History) but "Which policy is going to be implemented" is the MACRO.

[lannarebirth]

I repeat again; the debate on Thaksin, Abhisit... is useless and sterile now: it is just a psychodram in which you let off your steam... No interest and boring ... plus sour comments between us on some nationals...It is really of poor interest and not at the height that the events should expect we do and that the Thai Community expect from us.

Most of the posters are expats and cannot vote but we can help our Thai Friends and some of us have interests (including family ones)in this Country that we love. The debate must overpass the individuals, the old Thai political clique is non credible in its whole, but in such circumstances a new generation of leaders may surface on both sides. Today there is an opportunity things can change, we must not sabotage it by sterile and egocentric discussion.

Let us put on the table a consistent set of proposals that cannnot be ignored....This forum is organised by an important media, it is read and has some influence. We have to use this tool on a positive way.

To this forum Community thank you .....

I think most people here are aware of the giant elephants running around in the background of this political drama. It's just that most of us are not bloodthirsty and out for retribution of all that has gone on before. I think most think that if an ABRUPT change comes from that quarter than many many peoples blood will spill and most of us will be on our way out of here. Instead we focus on incremental positive change that can be accomplished in the here and now. Thaksin is an immediate impediment to that change and Abhisit, thusfar, has been a facilitator. maybe all that changes next week, but there's no sense focusing solely on the macro elements and ignoring the micro.

As expatriate, we should be more reserved about giving an opinion on Individual leaders, we should let this to the Thais: more, it is occupying more of this forum and this gives a very negative image of the Expat community: we look like spending our time ridiculing each other. From time to time the arguments are close to insults...particularly, I have assisted to a very low exchange of posts in which our US clleagues were under some unjustified attacks. As everywhere, you have a ratio of idiots and cultured persons and this is very similar throughout our world.

A little of dignity and mutual respect. Our expat community has more to win than to loose with such an attitude.

As I have already stated, the debate on individual leaders is overpassed in the current situation as the thema is no more on the future of the wealth of T but "Class War". We have to seize this opportunity and talk about what has to be changed for the benefit of Thailand and for trying to find an honourable exit to this Crisis. My order of priority is different from yours, I do not consider that 'who is leading" is fundamental (individuals are micro in History) but "Which policy is going to be implemented" is the MACRO.

Actually, I talk about what you call the macro almost exclusively though I consider it not a MACRO element. I've talked about Abhisit's policies and what he needs to bring them about. No other leader has any policies, only schemes.

[ballpoint]

Actually, I talk about what you call the macro almost exclusively though I consider it not a MACRO element. I've talked about Abhisit's policies and what he needs to bring them about. No other leader has any policies, only schemes.

And I challenge anyone to randomly ask any redshirt protestor what policies they'd like to see enacted by the next government. As we're constantly told on here that they're all protesting for a better future, and democratic principles, there should be a well thought out answer no matter who you ask. After all, anyone joining a protest without even knowing what that protest was about, what they personally hoped to achieve by it, and the way that achievemnet can be made, should be seriously

questioned as to their real motives. Especially if they are being paid.

In fact, while you're there, ask them:

Why they are there?

What the aim of the protest is?

How they are to achieve that aim?

What happens once/if that aim is achieved?

If they think that a change of government is required then why?

What policies they'd like to see the next government implement?

Is there anything the current government could do to make them change their mind?

You could also ask some of the flag waving bystanders:

Just why they're doing it?

Do they support the protest?

If so, why aren't they taking part? And then on to the above list.

Be careful, I don't think the section leaders would be too happy if anyone were to actually ask the people what they think. If I were in Bangkok though I certainly would try asking some of the bystanders.

[jayboy]

The debate isn't really all about Thaksin.

You're terribly naive jayboy.

The debate is only about Thaksin. The red cult could have anything they wanted if they simply disavowed their saviour. The reds are trying to make people believe it is about something else, because defending a convicted felon is an extremely difficult proposition. But no solution will be acceptable to them unless it includes the exoneration of Thaksin.

That isn't to say that individual people don't have legitimate concerns, but those CAN NOT be addressed through the red movement. Those concerns can only be addressed after Thaksin, and by extension the red movement, is eliminated.

Show me a group of reds who have publicly denounced Thaksin continuously and vocally, and I will accept your argument that it is not about Thaksin. Otherwise, you are simply spreading disinformation.

I've been accused of many things but "naive" is a first.

[Jerrytheyoung]

OK, I am not a supporter of either T or A.

I just find that the social imbalance between northern rural and Bangkokian is dangerous, unfair and not sustainable and it is the priority number one to be fixed.

Can you explain me what is the Abhisit (because he is the PM in command) policy for fixing this problem? What is the Budget and the means allocated and why in the Post, today, the Farmers are threatening to ban voting Democrat?

[AugustineB]

Quote from above:

Though the Red Shirts have succeeded in calling attention to their agenda, the major societal forces of Thailand appear stacked against them," said Paul Chambers, a Thailand specialist at Heidelberg University in Germany.

"This includes the monarchy, soldiers in top positions, courts, the ruling coalition, and most business groups."

A good read is Siam Mapped by Thongchai Winichakul

Explores the ways in which..never mind the myth that Thailand has never been colonised..Thailand/Siam has colonised large areas of what is now its territory. One result is that in many areas Thai is a minority language. The North Eastern/Issan people speak Lao, in the South East they speak Khmer and in the North Kammuang..there are a myriad of tribal dialects..about 80!! ..see Studies in Tai Linguistics in Honor of William Gedney..and then there is the issue of Teochew, the Chinese, spoken by great numbers of people in the Central/Southern area and Bangkok. Thailand is a highly fragmented country. At its peripheries: on the borders with Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia and Malaysia, where refugees, insurgents, disenfranchised and denationalised hill tribe ethnic groups survive, Thailand barely maintains its sovereignty. A country massively centred on one city Bangkok and a tacky tourist industry is held together, just, by money, plentiful food, strong families, the hegemony and 'benevolent' autarchy of the monarchy and the unpleasant nationalism/racism that has been diligently constructed to create the notion of 'being Thai'. It is a great shame that the clearly constructive aspiration to representation by the so called 'rural poor'...not that poor!!..is hijacked by the demagogue and mobile phone and silk tycoon Thaksin..the Chinese Slim of Thailand.

Nicely put , although I would say many nations are loose consortia of previously disparate tribes - in this respect Thaialnd is no less illusory than any other nation. The rest I agree with.

Edited March 20, 2010 by AugustineB

[madi]

It is comical seeing so many working class farangs here defending the upper class Elite here who have crushed democratic elections and the will of the people.

If the same thing were to happen in their own nations, they would be on the side of the workers surely.

What we have here in Thailand now is a non-elected government.

It was placed into power by a puppet court and a fake election.

Of course the ruling class does not want to have a real election because their candidates would lose such an election.

We have the poor workers being laughed at and spit upon by the ruling class and some of you, in fact most of you here, find this to be acceptable.

If this were America and Obama were campaigning and his group was laughed at, would you laugh?

Then after he won the election, a coup occurred, would you laugh?

Then a puppet court put in by the same coup government put out a warrant for Obama's arrest, would you laugh?

Then when his people marched in the streets in protest, would you laugh?

Well you might if you were a Nazi or a rightwing nut, but if you love democratic rule and fairness, you would not.

Now I am not saying that Taksan is Obama.

He clearly is not.

However all the other points are still true.

You people, some of you puppying the Thai Elite, say Taksan stole all his money.

BUT, all the nations where Taksan travels to refuse to arrest him because they obviously do not think Taksan did steal that money. All western European nations ignore Thailand's request for him.

Japan does too. America and Canada do too.

Why is that?

The ruling Elite in Thailand will fall one day and if they push too hard, they will fall like those in France did.

OR

They can do as the Elite in the UK did.

Back out of the government completely.

Then hold the other power.