Thai Red Shirts Declare 'Class War'

[anotherpeter]

I think the posts you see from farang on this website more or less back up the news headline about the class struggle. The ruling democrats are supported by the elite of Thai society, plus most of the farang on here, who are quite well-off by Thai standards, seem to be fanatically anti-Thaksin. Don't forget friends that the majority of Thais voted PPP in two elections so I wouldn't be so quick to voice your criticisms of them on here. Why not just leave it to the Thai people to sort out.

HaHa....HERE WE GO AGAIN...The majority of Thais Did Not vote PPP ........PPP only got 34% of the vote... Dems got 36.6% of the vote... But Thailand does not have Proportional representation, plus the fact that PPP were found guilty of buying votes....Just another Thaksin scam.......

Another mis-informed soul. Here are the results of the last election:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_general_election,_2007

PPP: 26,293,456 votes (36.63%)

Democrats: 21,745,696 (30.30%)

Now, tell me ...with nearly 5 million and 6% more votes, who won the election?

Neither of them.

They have both had to form government using the smaller parties, with the Democrats being the current party that has been able to do that.

The fact that the smaller parties are currently supporting the Democrats basically means that the majority of Thailand is supporting the Democrats. That's why they are in government.

And before you say something about the smaller parties being bought by the Democrats, these smaller parties campaigned that they would NOT form a coalition with the PPP. Yet they did. Why was that?

And before you say something about the PPP being disbanded, the EXECUTIVE of the PPP were found guilty of electoral fraud so the party was broken up. The courts found that the Democrat EXECUTIVE were not guilty of electoral fraud, so they were not broken up. Both PPP and Democrat MPs were banned and the remaining PPP MPs moved to other parties. By-elections were performed for the electorates of the banned MPs and new MPs were elected. So after that the same number of MPs existed.

And a majority of them are supporting the Democrats. That's why the Democrats are in government.

[animatic]

to win a class war first requires a working class hero.

If someone had suggested in any way that Thaksin is suitable, I would have roared with laughter, except that it is almost laughable were it not actually occuring now; one of the richest men in the country who was born into wealth, spent most of his life in wealth and some of it in unimaginable wealth almost none personally shared with the poor and a family who has almost nothing in common with a rice or sugar farmer. It is hard to believe that this....this is the guy who currently appears to be the only one who is the hero of the poor.

The big problem for the red shirts is that as long as a substantial force stand in the way blocking him (the courts, Thailand's income generator - the business community of Bangkok, the majority of the house of elected representatives, a more informed, better financed and more politically savvy group of protesters in Bangkok) then the red shirts need to find an alternative hero, or we are stuck with this deadlock as they must know that even were they to somehow do better in the next election that the last; it would have to be a pretty big swing from the previous election which the by elections suggested has actually swung the other way in order to create a strong coalition; then to fiddle the constitution and wind back time for Thaksin, is a lot to ask; something the business community would not probably be able to afford to go through again and that many voters, even those loyal to Thaksin, may not be willing to vote for.

If we imagine, just for a second, that Thaksin cannot stan. Who would be a suitable proxy, with the fortitude to be able to try to force through a huge change in constitution and to acheive this? If not for the Thaksin name, Samak would have got nowhere. Chavalit and Chalerm are even more damaged goods than Samak - Samak at least had a bit of support in Bangkok and was regarded initially as possibly ok - turned out to be useless, but that was kind of expected after his run as BMA governor.

On the other hand, Chavilit would be widely considered as one of the worst PMs Thailand has ever had, and while friendly and avuncular, he is going to be hopeless and would not be able to acheive the results for Thaksin that he needs. Chalerm is widely distrusted after his son fiasco despite being a fairly good speaker. Neither of these would reach the acceptance of the business community. And make no doubt about it, there is a lot of theory to suggest businesses decide who will govern. TRT came into power not on the back of the rural poor the first time, but on the back of the businesses that were willing to fund their electioneering....in return for things such as:

- property incentives and a blind eye to increasing foreign ownership, at least initially (L&H, Noble)

- control of the airport (King Power, various)

- control of infrastructure (Jasmin, Shin, Samart, ItalThai)

- control of agriculture (CP)

- control of retail (CP)

- control of FTA negotation and incentives (Shin, Samart, Summit)

- control of media and govt access to media and advertising (Channel 3, Channel 7, Traffic Corner, Grammy, etc)

Some rich individuals paid to help get TRT into power, so they could access cheap distressed assets, refinance their own companies, and influence key government policy. The big families, the ones who in my mind represent more than almost any others the true meaning of unelected power behind the PM's seat, are the ones who control things like capping hyper market expansion; ignoring and removing deregulation of the telco market; controlling media, etc. Whether these families will pay again, for uncertainty, is unknown.

We haven't seen any agenda from the red shirts yet to address what they stand for regarding big business......because the red shirts can't go after those families without running after their own Shinwatra and other 'hisos' tails.

If at some point the red shirt movement really does become an equal vote, equal rights, equal opportunities movement - something I believed with my heart to be absolutely impossible 2 weeks ago, but now I put at perhaps a 10% chance now; then the pro Thaksin mantra will have to fall by the wayside somewhat. I have no idea who would lead that shift; I cannot see Jatuporn et al saying anything other than the utter rubbish we've listened to for 1 year + so far; where are the speakers with actual agendas for what they want to see and how they want the country to run. It requires some pretty major change within the red shirt organisation.

IF PT decided to push a totally populist real rural poor agenda, then certain businesses, especially CP a very political family, could suffer. Past TRT supporters like King Power know they will be punished because everyone already saw the petty vindictiveness of PPP after they were elected. Therefore seems unlikely to be able to win them back.

So you end up with a facade of change, but really the worst of the worst upcountry mobsters are going to be the elected officials, exactly as has occurred in all elections to date. The Thaksin effect just cuts the costs of running and winning and election but that effect gets less each time and gets a lot less if you don't have the Thaksin effect; who will be the Thaksin proxy this time? And each election, it's like investing for a return. You need 2 years to get payback really, anything more than that is a bonus. Which of the money bags are willing to help seriously fund a PT electoral effort when i seems doomed to last less than a year if they win, and highly likely that some of their policies won't be exactly pro business?

Therefore, for a real class war to commence, to truly begin with an agenda of equality for the future; it requires that the red shirts start letting go, somewhat, of the obsession with Thaksin alone and offering a new leader that has a rural agenda. I look around and I am blank who this could possibly be. A person who can bring together the financing side of the business families, with the street smarts of a gangster to lock in the rural godfathers using that business money which will be absolutely mandatory if they don't have a leader with such personality as to be able to actually acheive what no Thai politician has ever done, to get around the rural godfathers, and then the business support to win Bangkok and the cities.

The voting profile of TRT the first time around (they swept BKK) and now is wildly different. Some rural poor areas are strongly red shirt. Some are strongly anti. It solely relates to just 1 guy, because the red shirt movement right now has no figure, not one, that would step in to fill the void if Thaksin said he wasn't going to go back into politics.

Sudarat is probably the closest, but she doesn't appeal to rural poor and the business community thinks she's a twit.

Somkid is long gone, but anyway the poor people made fun of him.

Purachai too polarising and besides which he isn't a red shirter by any means.

Suranond Vejajiva is a lightweight and again, no poor person would take any of these technocrat types seriously.

I just can't see how the logic works that these guys can sweep into power effortlessly with an actually thought out rural agenda.

I personally think their best shot, if they really want a class war, is to separate themselves from Thaksin completely by breaking into 2 groups; form a truly rural party and then run on the basis of that knowing as we do now, that neither PT nor Dems will win the election same as last time; both will need coalition partners. At this time, the rural party becomes a king maker to force the changes they want.

Of course.....I also know all this to be likely almost impossible, because the red shirts grass roots people carrying about democracy etc stuff and the reality of the dirty world Thai politics has a very very big disconnect in the middle.

So I guess we either get another claiming to be a rural party but not really PT/PPP type party running on the coat tails of Thaksin, but unlikely to be able to secure enough to do anything about it.....or we get a genuine rural party which is a lot more work and perhaps less likely to make headway but is actually what the red shirts should be pushing for now....not nearly as much of a vote winner, but long term actually truly a step for equal representation.

It is therefore ironic to me that the most hope the red shirts must surely have is a side deal down outside of the elected officials and outside the constitution that would acheive what Thaksin wants, reflecting the exact double standard that the red shirts claim to be against.

aww, don't be shy. Elaborate a little.

Yes, just woke up after that lot, did l miss anything.

Guess your weren't getting it, for me it was riveting.

Steve you ever write a book I am buying it,

I'll read the galleys twice and write a forword if you like.

[steveromagnino]

How did he get that house then in Sukhumvit Soi 31? With 36 million Baht he couldn't even pay the land his house stands on.

How do you know it wasn't family property. I know a family of doctors with a compound on sukhumvit that is larger than Abhisit's. They certainly couldn't afford that land today, but the area wasn't very developed 50 years ago when the purchase took place.

It would still be worth more than 36 Million Baht. So his assets can't be 36 Million Baht, unless he's on purpose keeping the value of the land lower in order to avoid paying high taxes. But I'm not even going there.

Well actually there are many ways it could be not his.

Matrimonial property

Property held in trust

family property belonging to his parents

or it might be worth less than you think even if he owns it outright

valuation based on historical value (which is what I think they use in asset declarations - even as late as 2002 that would have been worth less than 20mb - it isn't a big family compound like some of them.)

I know you wish to make a point that Abhisit is rich and maybe you consider him to be one of the elite - maybe you even think that what Thaksin is saying about how he isn't able to understand THais is true - he is definitely not up there compared to some of the regional MPs in PT or even in the Dems; he's never made the sort of cash that Korn made and he isn't on a skim. If you knew him, whether you like him or not, you'd recognise he is, like Korn, not on the take. If he is lying on his asset declaration, you would think the red shirts would have pounced on that by now. They haven't because like Chuan he isn't a wealthy man by MP standards. I presume you are well aware that Thaksin in the TRT heyday used to make fun of Chuan; that Chuan hadn't ever made a lot of money in his lifetime, and had failed to capitlise on his time in office and was still broke. This was funny to them back then. That a PM was not rich.

The worm has now turned, and it appears to be rich is unimportant. Because Thaksin is rich. But for Mark to be educated at one of the best schools in a country with an education system I would have loved to have enjoyed....that makes him unable to lead Thailand because he cannot talk to a farmer? Somehow I don't see this as the single most important task as PM.

I do agree though, to get elected, Thaksin had a rare skill that he made you want to like him; he has a weird personal magnetism in some way; I can see upcountry people would look straight past the IWC watch, the Fendi ill fitting suit and the Bally shoes...and see themselves. His myth of coming from poverty, while basically massively embellished, and his upcountry language....he can fake it that he is one of them.

As for Mark, he's from the city, he's educated, he's smart, and I will certainly accept he is not one of the rural poor or even one of the urban poor. He's not even really lower middle class - at that time in life, he was one of not that many who studied abroad - at that time, one of the middle class; certainly not one of the elite; back then the elite owned massive amounts of stuff - rather the typical 2nd generation Thai Chinese success capitalising on his parent's success, but not coming from a trader background like Thaksin, that's the slight difference.

No one who studies abroad - Abhisit, Sudarat, Thaksin - none of them are poor and broke. They all studied abroad and their families paid for it. Agreed, Thaksin's english sucks and he went to a bit of a second rate school in USA but even so, he was born with as much or more of a silver spoon than Abhisit. They mostly all are at that level in the current generation.

If you want to see the former generation.....look at Banharn....the quintessential country boy made good. Not really the kind of guy you'd want negotiating an FTA or dealing with finance masterplans. But mighty good at building stuff - the one thing he knows.

Strangely, I would rather have someone with a sound knowledge of economics and political policy than some rice farmer or construction worker with no education and no track record of making money running the country as PM - I am surprised that no red shirts have complained about the constitutional requirement of having a bachelors degree to be an MP. Personally, I think to be at the highest level requires a certain level of exposure; something that seems to occur in most democracies; representatives aren't the same as the people that vote for them; they simply have empathy and some understanding - or appear to.

That said, I think there should be MPs without degrees if they have strong standing in their local communities.

Strangely, I think you'll find the red shirt leaders and the PT MPs are quite happy with the status quo - they like the exclusion as it helps protect their jobs.

If wanting someone with a decent education who is articulate to be a leader makes me one of the elite, so be it. I like to think of myself as not completely stupid, but I'd be sad if my PM is only as smart as me. I don't want someone like me. I want someone better.

Like I said earlier, when I see clear policies and not this wishy washy junk on Thaksin cares and Abhisit doesn't, then I can listen. But right now anything subjective needs to be reduced to a scale, to be measured and compared. That's what market research and study is about. That's why TRT did so well.....because in no small part they did a ton of research on what their constituents wanted and they appeared to do it or at least talk about it. And measuring and comparing assets...Abhisit is not one of the 'elite' in education, family background, wealth or any other construct you wish to put out there - the elite bit is in acheivement, drive and building his network.

Any PM requires that. That's how they become PM.

BTW wealth distribution in Thailand and USA are similar - Lorenz curve and GINI index are ways to compare wealth disparity. As I recall, this gap did not narrow under the TRT administration, in fact my personal experience is the huge profits under TRT certainly didn't go to the farmers.....they went to some of my, er, 'friend's' clients.

Edited March 18, 2010 by steveromagnino

[brahmburgers]

Yes, there is a deep chasm between the 2% at the top who have 50% of the assets, and the 40% at the bottom who struggle mightily from day to day. However (and someone earlier posted this) not all the poor are protesting, indeed not even a majority of Thailand's poor are among the ranks of the Red Shirts. Perhaps they all should be protesting. Yet, making the playing field more level is a multi-faceted endeavor.

For starters, the super rich should have a modicum of conscience and a sense of sharing some of their wealth with the downtrodden. As with many other countries, there's a dearth of compassion among the Thailand's rich. But how to instill as sense of sharing? Not easy to do. With most people (rich or poor) such sentiments get seeded in a person's youth. Youngsters learn a lot from their parents and teachers and the stuff they see on TV/movies, and youngsters can tell the difference between what people say and how they manifest ("do as I say, not as I do" syndrome is so 'old school' Dickinsian).

A couple quick add-ons: Taxes, particularly property taxes, should be instated. So should child care costs from deadbeat dads. Those two items alone, if collected diligently, could probably double Thailand's coffers. And if that money was, in turn, channeled smartly to the poor - things would look a lot rosier. Currently there are nearly no taxes for rural properties, and absolutely no inducements for deadbeat dads to pay a satang toward kids they sire, and then walk away from. Come on Thai legislators, get real and offer some hope for millions of single moms and millions of fatherless children!

[Sunderland]

Forget Thaksin and the other muppets ...

... it might not be today, tomorrow or this year, but the poor have opened a few eyes during this protest and are not without their sympathetic vote from the international media.

When the unmentionable happens within the next 12 months, the country will be left with a huge power vacuum which will be fraught with problems.

Somehow out of all that will come a more forward thinking Thailand. Patience will be necessary. Something many people on this board obviously lack.

[gemini81]

what cracks me up is the leaders of the Red shirts are all HI SO's! Wealthy. Just like in the USA, where the Democrats say they are for the working man...as they drive a Benz and take vacations around the world. Same same.

We were watching the red shirt channel the other day. My wife saw a lady get up on stage and goes "Oh! Look at her...she is big time HI SO in Bangkok." And there she is trying to get the poor people to sleep on the street and walk in the sun for them...crazy....amazing what you can get people to believe...

really thats the bottom line. Its not at all a class struggle..other than being at the bottom of the ladder means you're the grunt doing the dirty work, carrying out the tasks delegated to you. The top of the hierarchy of red shirts are well to do.

C'mon, even if you have no clue or no education, just reason: how were they able to pay us each 2000 baht a head? because we're all dirt poor? In the end, you deserve what you've chosen to do with your life

[anon467367354]

Just now watching on television some of the Red Shirt women cooking in big pots. Maybe they are doing some good afterall. There may not be any more mangy soi dogs running loose in the streets of Bangkok.

What a racist statement

What race was mentioned here? Red Shirt women is a race? If it's a race to cook the most soi dogs, give me her number! Clean the streets of all the dogs I say!

[mazeltov]

History has proved that the people always win.

that's cos history is written by the winners for the people, to keep them in line...hardly gonna say 'you lost, we won' now are they?

Care to name a country where 'the poor' have won and are no longer poor relative to a ruling class? No...thought not

Trotskyist tripe.

it isn't a class war in the Marxist-Leninist sense. capitalists are not the bad people here.

capitalism isn't bad at all, don't have to mean exploitation but choice and chance. and that you actually have to work, what the reds already do, the farmers like the new money businessmen, unlike some other lame pencil pusher in a oversize bureaucracy state and officialdom, the home of the old money, with a feudal hierarchy, where you get your job with connections and by your family name, to leech the money of without providing much efficiency or be actually needed or useful.

[Sunderland]

what cracks me up is the leaders of the Red shirts are all HI SO's! Wealthy. Just like in the USA, where the Democrats say they are for the working man...as they drive a Benz and take vacations around the world. Same same.

We were watching the red shirt channel the other day. My wife saw a lady get up on stage and goes "Oh! Look at her...she is big time HI SO in Bangkok." And there she is trying to get the poor people to sleep on the street and walk in the sun for them...crazy....amazing what you can get people to believe...

really thats the bottom line. Its not at all a class struggle..other than being at the bottom of the ladder means you're the grunt doing the dirty work, carrying out the tasks delegated to you. The top of the hierarchy of red shirts are well to do.

C'mon, even if you have no clue or no education, just reason: how were they able to pay us each 2000 baht a head? because we're all dirt poor? In the end, you deserve what you've chosen to do with your life

Easy to say when you have had greater opportunities than the average upcountry person ...

[Grey11]

they must be taking a leaf out gordon brown/labours book in the uk,who have declared a class more against the conservation public school boys party who are out for the upper classes first and foremost..

pretty similar to here

and the conservative and dem leaders both went to eton

I hope David Cameron wins the next UK election. It will mean good ties between the UK and Thailand. Eton has produced some really great leaders and I think Khun Abhisit, given the chance will do a lot for this country.

Abhisit went to Oxford.... he went to school in Thailand...

The PM, Abhisit earned a B.A. in Philosophy, Politics & Economics from Oxford Univ. He received his master's degree in Economics from Oxford Univ., He received his Law degree from Eton, all in England. Both his father & mother are M.D.'s PM Abhisit was born in Newcastle, England, in 1964. He graduated with honors while receiving all of his degrees. Thailand is lucky to have such a well-educated man as its PM. Unlike Thaksin, he had no ties with the police or the military. IMHO that is a good thing.

[Grey11]

As a mere Farang worker in this country I am told to shut my mouth and if I don't like it - leave.

I am harassed by all levels of Govt employees at Immigration regarding continuing renewal of my Visa.

I go to my bank and they do not have sufficient cash to meet a withdrawal slip and now I make phone calls in advance so they can meet it.

I cannot own a house but can own a condo provided the majority in the building is owned by Thais but where to put two kids and a wife in a Condo?

I cannot send money to my offshore requirements to meet credit card payments without providing a statement and proof of who I am even when I have a local bank account.

Banks won't lend me money as a medium income earner so I cannot expand my business - I simply have to pay cash

I employ 4 permanents and look after my staff. I employ 100 at a time on contract - yet I am looked upon as elite or with ATM stamped on my forehead

I have a Thai family and le-kreung kids but cannot get PR without paying for the privilege yet all are dependents on my ability to support them

And now I have to put up with rabble who are being manipulated by a convicted criminal who 'was' part of the elite they so badly oppose, who are all but stopping my possible income to my business as I only deal with international clients bringing money into Thailand, who are being warned by Embassies and bloated media reports that Thailand is not safe...

From me, my family and kids, wake up Thailand. Look at what you have and work to improve it. Complaints and protests manipulated by power brokers who care nothing about you, democracy and have greed as their motivational factor, are destroying Thailand in the eyes of the world and if you don't care, try being a foreigner living in another country and see how this rubbish affects you as right now I have to play by your rules and whilst I can't change them - I sure as hel_l can have my say!

Excellent. My wife is also Thai and we have been going through similar hel_l for the last 7 months. I also believe since we spend our money here - provides jobs - we also have a say. There are very few places other than Thai Visa where we can voice our opinions. The Red Shirts have been making everything harder on most all Thais including farangs. Certainly many farangs on TV will say: "Get the hel_l out of Thailand and go home if you don't like it!" Well, I'm not leaving. So have your say. I just had mine.

[gemini81]

what cracks me up is the leaders of the Red shirts are all HI SO's! Wealthy. Just like in the USA, where the Democrats say they are for the working man...as they drive a Benz and take vacations around the world. Same same.

We were watching the red shirt channel the other day. My wife saw a lady get up on stage and goes "Oh! Look at her...she is big time HI SO in Bangkok." And there she is trying to get the poor people to sleep on the street and walk in the sun for them...crazy....amazing what you can get people to believe...

really thats the bottom line. Its not at all a class struggle..other than being at the bottom of the ladder means you're the grunt doing the dirty work, carrying out the tasks delegated to you. The top of the hierarchy of red shirts are well to do.

C'mon, even if you have no clue or no education, just reason: how were they able to pay us each 2000 baht a head? because we're all dirt poor? In the end, you deserve what you've chosen to do with your life

Easy to say when you have had greater opportunities than the average upcountry person ...

you don't know my background. I had it just as rough. Thailand isn't the only poor place. Homeless and poor everywhere. I would only expect snobby remarks from smug weasels.

[animatic]

The PM, Abhisit earned a B.A. in Philosophy, Politics & Economics from Oxford Univ. He received his master's degree in Economics from Oxford Univ., He received his Law degree from Eton, all in England. Both his father & mother are M.D.'s PM Abhisit was born in Newcastle, England, in 1964. He graduated with honors while receiving all of his degrees. Thailand is lucky to have such a well-educated man as its PM. Unlike Thaksin, he had no ties with the police or the military. IMHO that is a good thing.

110% agree with this.

The country could not get luckier than have him at this time.

Regardless of what bedfellows and circumstances he must deal with to do the job.

A normal hazard in politics everywhere by the way.

He is perfectly trained for this position and we couldn't ask for better.

[landofthefree]

I Guess Mr. T would not be a part of the Elite Class they are struggling against.

From my 17 years of watching Thai Politics , it has always been about anything BUT helping the Poor, hence , they are still Poor.

It all has to do with who you know or what you have.

GREED ??

I wonder , do these people know what HYPOCRITES are ?

Can somebody pay everyone to go home please ?

It does not matter who is in power here Greed and Corruption rules.

Bloomberg has this country for 10 years as one of the most corrupt country in Asia 8 years they where #1 the other 2 #2

This guy right now was born not with a silver spoon in his mouth

but platinum and diamonds hanging all over him, talk about spoiled elite,

he has not idea how some have to live in Issan or any place else .

We all should try to live on 1500 Baht a month like many do ,if that much.We all would not have such a big mouth and know it all attitude.

He so out of touch with reality.This forum a few years ago was great it is becoming a joke also.

Where do you get your facts...Mr Abhisit is the son of a doctor..... his family are not wealthy..., the total value of his estate is recorded as a mere 36million Bahts... where did you get your information... wrong , wrong , wrong..... Many Issan farmers can buy and sell him.... not to much platinum, and very few nice diamonds on this money..!!!!

I wish I had a mere 36 million baht!

[landofthefree]

I Guess Mr. T would not be a part of the Elite Class they are struggling against.

From my 17 years of watching Thai Politics , it has always been about anything BUT helping the Poor, hence , they are still Poor.

It all has to do with who you know or what you have.

GREED ??

I wonder , do these people know what HYPOCRITES are ?

Can somebody pay everyone to go home please ?

It does not matter who is in power here Greed and Corruption rules.

Bloomberg has this country for 10 years as one of the most corrupt country in Asia 8 years they where #1 the other 2 #2

This guy right now was born not with a silver spoon in his mouth

but platinum and diamonds hanging all over him, talk about spoiled elite,

he has not idea how some have to live in Issan or any place else .

We all should try to live on 1500 Baht a month like many do ,if that much.We all would not have such a big mouth and know it all attitude.

He so out of touch with reality.This forum a few years ago was great it is becoming a joke also.

Where do you get your facts...Mr Abhisit is the son of a doctor..... his family are not wealthy..., the total value of his estate is recorded as a mere 36million Bahts... where did you get your information... wrong , wrong , wrong..... Many Issan farmers can buy and sell him.... not to much platinum, and very few nice diamonds on this money..!!!!

I wish I had a mere 36 million baht!

Also if you know an Isaan farmer with 36 million baht please let me know!

[seri thai]

Since he is in exile, Thaksin must be Leon Trotsky.

Montenegro, like Mexico, begins with an 'M'.

Ouch! (though

- assassination aside, Trotsky was an accredited socialist as opposed to an opportunist capitalist)

[elcent]

Unlike Thaksin, he had no ties with the police or the military. IMHO that is a good thing.

The first real deal for Thaksin was the Israeli brand of radios for the military and police. So is he not connected to each of them?

[yoshiwara]

History has proved that the people always win.

that's cos history is written by the winners for the people, to keep them in line...hardly gonna say 'you lost, we won' now are they?

Care to name a country where 'the poor' have won and are no longer poor relative to a ruling class? No...thought not

Trotskyist tripe.

it isn't a class war in the Marxist-Leninist sense. capitalists are not the bad people here.

capitalism isn't bad at all, don't have to mean exploitation but choice and chance. and that you actually have to work, what the reds already do, the farmers like the new money businessmen, unlike some other lame pencil pusher in a oversize bureaucracy state and officialdom, the home of the old money, with a feudal hierarchy, where you get your job with connections and by your family name, to leech the money of without providing much efficiency or be actually needed or useful.

I didn't realise how poor was your understanding or inability to present a coherent class analysis position. Class was has nothing to do with 'bad' people. It is the clash of objective class forces. Not a class war in the Marxist-Leninist sense? The only class war the reds appear to have in mind is one which yet again centres around the defence of Thaksin. Making it up as you go along dear? A non-honours degree analysis.

[landofthefree]

The PM, Abhisit earned a B.A. in Philosophy, Politics & Economics from Oxford Univ. He received his master's degree in Economics from Oxford Univ., He received his Law degree from Eton, all in England. Both his father & mother are M.D.'s PM Abhisit was born in Newcastle, England, in 1964. He graduated with honors while receiving all of his degrees. Thailand is lucky to have such a well-educated man as its PM. Unlike Thaksin, he had no ties with the police or the military. IMHO that is a good thing.

110% agree with this.

The country could not get luckier than have him at this time.

Regardless of what bedfellows and circumstances he must deal with to do the job.

A normal hazard in politics everywhere by the way.

He is perfectly trained for this position and we couldn't ask for better.

He received his law degree from Eton!!!!!!!!!!!!Its a boys school they finish when they are 18, they don't do degrees because they are not a University, Christ on a bike! you must be American.

[Sunderland]

what cracks me up is the leaders of the Red shirts are all HI SO's! Wealthy. Just like in the USA, where the Democrats say they are for the working man...as they drive a Benz and take vacations around the world. Same same.

We were watching the red shirt channel the other day. My wife saw a lady get up on stage and goes "Oh! Look at her...she is big time HI SO in Bangkok." And there she is trying to get the poor people to sleep on the street and walk in the sun for them...crazy....amazing what you can get people to believe...

really thats the bottom line. Its not at all a class struggle..other than being at the bottom of the ladder means you're the grunt doing the dirty work, carrying out the tasks delegated to you. The top of the hierarchy of red shirts are well to do.

C'mon, even if you have no clue or no education, just reason: how were they able to pay us each 2000 baht a head? because we're all dirt poor? In the end, you deserve what you've chosen to do with your life

Easy to say when you have had greater opportunities than the average upcountry person ...

you don't know my background. I had it just as rough. Thailand isn't the only poor place. Homeless and poor everywhere. I would only expect snobby remarks from smug weasels.

So which developing country with no social welfare did you bravely survive hardship in?

[steveromagnino]

Easy to say when you have had greater opportunities than the average upcountry person ...

you don't know my background. I had it just as rough. Thailand isn't the only poor place. Homeless and poor everywhere. I would only expect snobby remarks from smug weasels.

LUXURY! When I was young we didn't even have weasels, we had to make do with eating rocks and drinking the blood of small insects and we didn't walk to school, we were so poor there was no road, so we had to rock climb 20 miles in freezing snow naked because we couldn't even afford shirts.

Sorry, but sometimes these threads we all need to smile.

I know that anytime I put forth my view too strongly, I am often told, that's because you've not been poor. I know and appreciate that. Both my parents, were born with as little or less than many of the red shirts and certainly far less than red shirt leaders.

A responsible leader creates the opportunities for those that need them....but you can't make people take them. Look at the success of the lottery in Thailand for that - the biggest tax on the rural poor that exists.

'Also if you know an Isaan farmer with 36 million baht please let me know!'

I know some. They are the land barrons who often were broke 20-30 years ago, but instead of playing the lottery and raising their kids; they went for a few years without eating; sacrificing everything, so their kids would have the education they didn't. There's huge wealth upcountry; and a large chunk of it is generated through the graft and monopoly and crony capitalism that links to politics...something the red shirts struggle with because a large chunk of their MPs feed off that very system - that very system is paying 2,000b to some people in the protests.

Specifics: One woman I know very well owns 10,000 rai odd of land- she was born in a family that some days didn't eat as there wasn't any food; everything was a hardship. She's worth a lot more than 36 million. Every year, she buys probably another 500 rai because families go broke and end up having to sell it. The usual deal is then they come back and farm the same land in a rental deal.

So as a politician, how to redistribute if at all - do you give people the money for the lottery, or you give them the mental fortitude to change themselves and change?

'capitalism isn't bad at all, don't have to mean exploitation but choice and chance. and that you actually have to work, what the reds already do, the farmers like the new money businessmen, unlike some other lame pencil pusher in a oversize bureaucracy state and officialdom, the home of the old money, with a feudal hierarchy, where you get your job with connections and by your family name, to leech the money of without providing much efficiency or be actually needed or useful.'

So...where do you put a business man that decides to get into power, then reduce his tax burden to the state and pay it to himself, while simultaneously closing off the sector he does business in to further competition, and ensuring that the state businesses set up to develop his sector are run by relatives and thus sure to fail? Is he providing efficiency, something needed, or something useful?

Where does the crony capitalism model fit into your little simplistic picture of life in Thailand, and what role do you think legacy monopolies given to specific business people by their friends in power plays? Do you like or not like those people?

According to your business model, there are no hiso old money families doing business, they are all leeches, whereas the farmers and new money business people are generating something. Hmmmm....... Paging Jatuporn, I think we've found your next speaker when you run out of people to talk and want someone to say something so we don't have to listen to another frigging badly sung Arisaman song.

Edited March 18, 2010 by steveromagnino

[gemini81]

The PM, Abhisit earned a B.A. in Philosophy, Politics & Economics from Oxford Univ. He received his master's degree in Economics from Oxford Univ., He received his Law degree from Eton, all in England. Both his father & mother are M.D.'s PM Abhisit was born in Newcastle, England, in 1964. He graduated with honors while receiving all of his degrees. Thailand is lucky to have such a well-educated man as its PM. Unlike Thaksin, he had no ties with the police or the military. IMHO that is a good thing.

110% agree with this.

The country could not get luckier than have him at this time.

Regardless of what bedfellows and circumstances he must deal with to do the job.

A normal hazard in politics everywhere by the way.

He is perfectly trained for this position and we couldn't ask for better.

He received his law degree from Eton!!!!!!!!!!!!Its a boys school they finish when they are 18, they don't do degrees because they are not a University, Christ on a bike! you must be American.

christ on a bike, you outta read his thesis from his alleged university. Google it in! man does it suck.

[ding]

"One of the most horrible features of war is that all the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting."

—George Orwell

"See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." -George W Bush

[rainman]

what cracks me up is the leaders of the Red shirts are all HI SO's! Wealthy. Just like in the USA, where the Democrats say they are for the working man...as they drive a Benz and take vacations around the world. Same same.

We were watching the red shirt channel the other day. My wife saw a lady get up on stage and goes "Oh! Look at her...she is big time HI SO in Bangkok." And there she is trying to get the poor people to sleep on the street and walk in the sun for them...crazy....amazing what you can get people to believe...

Your wife totally missed the point of the protests. It isn't so much about HI-SO and LO-SO, but about equal opportunities for all Thais, whether they are rich or poor.

[steveromagnino]

what cracks me up is the leaders of the Red shirts are all HI SO's! Wealthy. Just like in the USA, where the Democrats say they are for the working man...as they drive a Benz and take vacations around the world. Same same.

We were watching the red shirt channel the other day. My wife saw a lady get up on stage and goes "Oh! Look at her...she is big time HI SO in Bangkok." And there she is trying to get the poor people to sleep on the street and walk in the sun for them...crazy....amazing what you can get people to believe...

Your wife totally missed the point of the protests. It isn't so much about HI-SO and LO-SO, but about equal opportunities for all Thais, whether they are rich or poor.

the hiso on stage is a well known friend of the Shinwatras anyhow, and did reality TV and I think perhaps has some business ownership relationship with a media company linked in the past to TRT anyhow.

She's not there to earn 2,000b; she believes in the stuff. She's not the only one.

Obviously, she doesn't sleep on the street.

However, I'd guess 95-99% of the protesters are working class, and very very few born and bred Bangkokians - Daranee would be one of the few.

Most of the more educated and richer, they don't mix with this sort of working class person at all. I can assure you that other than shaking a few hands, Khunying Pojaman does NOT mix with the working class. That family are some of the biggest snobs in Thailand. So that's one reason of many why you never see more affluent people at red shirt rallies for the most part other than the odd poster child.

In addition, the red shirt agenda, particularly the threats and whatever, aren't exactly fitting well with many Bangkokian's views - that's why most of BKK doesn't vote for a PPP/PT/TRT governor, or politicians. And certainly why most of them don't go to the rallies.

The ones from Bangkok that do attend are mostly the upcountry maids, security, workers, taxis, motorcycles.....that are from upcountry and listen and like (or earn) from the red shirter message. Even my TRT politician mates...they aren't red shirters, they are pro Thaksin, they aren't brave enough, some of them, to go along. They have zero in common with most of hte protesters.

The rich ones are the ones that pay for the rallies. Not attend it.

I believe the rallies; given some of the Thaksin signage on the motorcade, are about getting equal opportunities for Thais maybe, except for one who gets special treatment for one Thai in particular to be pardoned and immune to any further prosecution, simply because 'we like him' (the OJ approach, OJ is a great footballer, that's why he is innocent).

When we see the manifesto list of demands of HOW Thais will get equal opportunities, the one that the red shirts must have but haven't revealed (i've only seen their desire to make the govt stand down, change the constitution and pardon Thaksin) which outlines equality - a charter - you know an I have a dream speech that sort of thing, or even better a political list of demands....then we might start to think what this rally is for.

Given the timing, the demands to date.....forgive me for being cynical that not everyone there is about equality.

Edited March 18, 2010 by steveromagnino

[SomTumTiger]

what cracks me up is the leaders of the Red shirts are all HI SO's! Wealthy. Just like in the USA, where the Democrats say they are for the working man...as they drive a Benz and take vacations around the world. Same same.

We were watching the red shirt channel the other day. My wife saw a lady get up on stage and goes "Oh! Look at her...she is big time HI SO in Bangkok." And there she is trying to get the poor people to sleep on the street and walk in the sun for them...crazy....amazing what you can get people to believe...

Your wife totally missed the point of the protests. It isn't so much about HI-SO and LO-SO, but about equal opportunities for all Thais, whether they are rich or poor.

Apparently Rainman missed the point of the protest, which was Thaksin paying people, in a last ditch effort to secure his own money and power...

[dobadoy]

it isn't a class war in the Marxist-Leninist sense. capitalists are not the bad people here.

capitalism isn't bad at all, don't have to mean exploitation but choice and chance. and that you actually have to work, what the reds already do, the farmers like the new money businessmen, unlike some other lame pencil pusher in a oversize bureaucracy state and officialdom, the home of the old money, with a feudal hierarchy, where you get your job with connections and by your family name, to leech the money of without providing much efficiency or be actually needed or useful.

So, you think there is a single red/yellow/pink/blue/green or gold shirt that doesn't believe in the ethical rightness of patronage, of giving and receiving influence through one's friends, one's family and one's connections?

Then you don't know anything about Thailand or its culture.

I'd venture with 99% confidence that not a single legitimate protester who came to Bangkok for "the million man march" has any idea what "class war" means and nor would they vote for it if they did. I'm not slinging the usual yellow shirt 'uneducated peasant' slur here, I'm saying that the concept has neither been explained by those who are bandying it around nor is it what people anywhere in Thailand are actually interested in, regardless of their education, occupation or geographical location.

The marxist tripe due to Giles Ungpakporn (himself the son of a former Bangkok governor, hardly a champion of Isaan) is of no relevance to anyone in the modern world. Just a university academic who read Marx like an infatuated teenager but didn't grow out of it or realize the rest of the world has done that, been there, and said 'no thanks'.

[Jerrytheyoung]

yes one of the biggest injustice is certainly the access to a proper Education. The quality of the Issan educational system is far below Bangkok and if you are a poor farmer you have no choice:

- you cannot pay the Bangkokian fees (+ boarding). Your children have to go to the local school.

Concerning the leaders, a lot of examples in History demonstrates that it is often Middle class people who are leading (at least initially) the 'War of Class'.

- A lot of examples shows equally that the result is often the replacement of an "Elite" by a "Nomenklatura".

So maybe better to find middle ways and consensus on society reforms,and to negotiate...

[gemini81]

what cracks me up is the leaders of the Red shirts are all HI SO's! Wealthy. Just like in the USA, where the Democrats say they are for the working man...as they drive a Benz and take vacations around the world. Same same.

We were watching the red shirt channel the other day. My wife saw a lady get up on stage and goes "Oh! Look at her...she is big time HI SO in Bangkok." And there she is trying to get the poor people to sleep on the street and walk in the sun for them...crazy....amazing what you can get people to believe...

Your wife totally missed the point of the protests. It isn't so much about HI-SO and LO-SO, but about equal opportunities for all Thais, whether they are rich or poor.

Apparently Rainman missed the point of the protest, which was Thaksin paying people, in a last ditch effort to secure his own money and power...

thats really what it boild down to. you can say in one sentence what these other guys say in 5 essays.

[Jerrytheyoung]

yes one of the biggest injustice is certainly the access to a proper Education. The quality of the Issan educational system is far below Bangkok and if you are a poor farmer you have no choice:

- you cannot pay the Bangkokian fees (+ boarding). Your children have to go to the local school.

Concerning the leaders, a lot of examples in History demonstrates that it is often Middle class people who are leading (at least initially) the 'War of Class'.

- A lot of examples shows equally that the result is often the replacement of an "Elite" by a "Nomenklatura".

So maybe better to find middle ways and consensus on society reforms,and to negotiate...