Red-Shirt Leaders Urged To Bypass Thaksin

[jdinasia]

Forced? LOL

he would have done it anyway right? haha cummon...

Go back weeks --- he said that dissolution was a possibility. Then again you would have to have paid attention to know that. The fact that he gave up nothing and gained from it seems to escape you.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I don't disagree they didn't come across well - and you know I do not support nor condone violence in any of my posts and have spoken out against it many times - but my point is... they have forced Abhsisit to consider an early election - you should conceed this point.

I'm petty sure that PM-Abhisit, as a normal politician, would already have been considering an early election, as all it would take is one of his coalition-partners to drop out (not entirely impossible) and he would then need to decide, whether to call an election or return to opposition. That's just normal politics.

Note that PM-Somchai had the same opportunity, but 'democratically' chose not to go to the country, before his party was dissolved and his coalition-government fell, in November-2008.

No, the point is, Abhisit chose to link an early-election, which the Red-Shirts seek, to improvements to the Constitution, which they also from-time-to-time claim to seek. Either way he wins, because they help him achieve something worthwhile longer-term with the Constitution, or they show that a quick-election is more important to them than fairer democratic-rules.

In sticking to the 15-day dissolution, the Red-leaders show that Thaksin's needs are currently their over-riding consideration, rather than their noble claims to also want to fix Thai democracy.

I actually disagree with the 15 day dissolution - but maintain my view that an early election would not have bene considered had there not been protests - its obvious

[ChiangMaiFun]

Forced? LOL

he would have done it anyway right? haha cummon...

Go back weeks --- he said that dissolution was a possibility. Then again you would have to have paid attention to know that. The fact that he gave up nothing and gained from it seems to escape you.

now, now... your starting to be aggressive and rude yet again...

yes he said it weeks ago (got that thanks) and, obviously, he would not do so without the opposition protests - you just cannot bring yourself to admit a blatant fact can you? by not doing so really does diminish your arguements (some of which maybe valid)

[Chaimai]

I actually disagree with the 15 day dissolution - but maintain my view that an early election would not have bene considered had there not been protests - its obvious

The red shirts have achieved something - move on. Debating whether this would have been achieved with or without the protest is pointless.

I suspect if Jatuporn had knocked on the door of Government House and said "Khun Abhisit, we want you to dissolve parliament a year early so we can have free and fair elections " - he would probably have agreed.

At the moment the 'reds' have not even achieved this (although I am sure that Abhisit will honour the early election promise with, or without, threats, protests, posturing or bags of shi!te.)

Edited April 1, 2010 by Chaimai

[ChiangMaiFun]

I actually disagree with the 15 day dissolution - but maintain my view that an early election would not have bene considered had there not been protests - its obvious

The red shirts have achieved something - move on. Debating whether this would have been achieved with or without the protest is pointless.

I suspect if Jatuporn had knocked on the door of Government House and said "Khun Abhisit, we want you to dissolve parliament a year early so we can have free and fair elections " - he would probably have agreed.

At the moment the 'reds' have not even achieved this (although I am sure that Abhisit will honour the early election promise with, or without, threats, protests, posturing or bags of shi!te.)

Thank you... I will... at last an honest poster - but you know i only concur with the first part of your comment - however - as you say time to move on

[Chaimai]

I actually disagree with the 15 day dissolution - but maintain my view that an early election would not have bene considered had there not been protests - its obvious

The red shirts have achieved something - move on. Debating whether this would have been achieved with or without the protest is pointless.

I suspect if Jatuporn had knocked on the door of Government House and said "Khun Abhisit, we want you to dissolve parliament a year early so we can have free and fair elections " - he would probably have agreed.

At the moment the 'reds' have not even achieved this (although I am sure that Abhisit will honour the early election promise with, or without, threats, protests, posturing or bags of shi!te.)

Thank you... I will... at last an honest poster - but you know i only concur with the first part of your comment - however - as you say time to move on

CMF - I have no issue with that. I do not have divinity on my opinion being 'right' all the time. It is MY opinion and YOU have yours - it is perfectly legitimate to differ.

At least we seem to be able to achieve that with some civility. .

Now - on to actually achieving something that brings a degree of unity to this country.

[hammered]

The trouble is the red shirt leaders have achieved something for the red shirts and their demands but they havent achieved what Thakisin wanted which is change now. What takes priority?

If the demos fail to create a disolution, and there will be a genuine and maybe stunt filled attempt this weekend, we will move to a censure debate with Banharn heavily targetted behind the scenes by Thaksin.

Debt moratoriums are being offered by both sides to farmers. The red side got a good start on this with promises for when they returned to power but now the massive government one through CTP ministers threatens to alter the game somewhat if it gets traction and also probably keep Banharn happy with the current set up. Farmers have always entioned that bankers debts in the past were written off but farmers left. The amount involved in this proposal would take that complaint away in one fell swoop. No doubt team red will have to come up with some more radical counter-proposal

This is the parliamentary and street real politik. Interesting to watch.

[ChiangMaiFun]

The trouble is the red shirt leaders have achieved something for the red shirts and their demands but they havent achieved what Thakisin wanted which is change now. What takes priority?

If the demos fail to create a disolution, and there will be a genuine and maybe stunt filled attempt this weekend, we will move to a censure debate with Banharn heavily targetted behind the scenes by Thaksin.

Debt moratoriums are being offered by both sides to farmers. The red side got a good start on this with promises for when they returned to power but now the massive government one through CTP ministers threatens to alter the game somewhat if it gets traction and also probably keep Banharn happy with the current set up. Farmers have always entioned that bankers debts in the past were written off but farmers left. The amount involved in this proposal would take that complaint away in one fell swoop. No doubt team red will have to come up with some more radical counter-proposal

This is the parliamentary and street real politik. Interesting to watch.

I tend to seperate Thaksin from the movement (difficult I know) - to be honest I wish they would all just merge into some sort of 'orange' and get the problems sorted out - the farmers need real help not all this noise from both sides

[animatic]

On man's 'it's obvious', is another man's

superficial facade, without deeper observations.

[hammered]

The trouble is the red shirt leaders have achieved something for the red shirts and their demands but they havent achieved what Thakisin wanted which is change now. What takes priority?

If the demos fail to create a disolution, and there will be a genuine and maybe stunt filled attempt this weekend, we will move to a censure debate with Banharn heavily targetted behind the scenes by Thaksin.

Debt moratoriums are being offered by both sides to farmers. The red side got a good start on this with promises for when they returned to power but now the massive government one through CTP ministers threatens to alter the game somewhat if it gets traction and also probably keep Banharn happy with the current set up. Farmers have always entioned that bankers debts in the past were written off but farmers left. The amount involved in this proposal would take that complaint away in one fell swoop. No doubt team red will have to come up with some more radical counter-proposal

This is the parliamentary and street real politik. Interesting to watch.

I tend to seperate Thaksin from the movement (difficult I know) - to be honest I wish they would all just merge into some sort of 'orange' and get the problems sorted out - the farmers need real help not all this noise from both sides

I think without Thaksin everything would be resolved very quickly, but he has parachuted himself into the middle of everything and getting him out of it is probably nigh on impossible.

[ChiangMaiFun]

The trouble is the red shirt leaders have achieved something for the red shirts and their demands but they havent achieved what Thakisin wanted which is change now. What takes priority?

If the demos fail to create a disolution, and there will be a genuine and maybe stunt filled attempt this weekend, we will move to a censure debate with Banharn heavily targetted behind the scenes by Thaksin.

Debt moratoriums are being offered by both sides to farmers. The red side got a good start on this with promises for when they returned to power but now the massive government one through CTP ministers threatens to alter the game somewhat if it gets traction and also probably keep Banharn happy with the current set up. Farmers have always entioned that bankers debts in the past were written off but farmers left. The amount involved in this proposal would take that complaint away in one fell swoop. No doubt team red will have to come up with some more radical counter-proposal

This is the parliamentary and street real politik. Interesting to watch.

I tend to seperate Thaksin from the movement (difficult I know) - to be honest I wish they would all just merge into some sort of 'orange' and get the problems sorted out - the farmers need real help not all this noise from both sides

I think without Thaksin everything would be resolved very quickly, but he has parachuted himself into the middle of everything and getting him out of it is probably nigh on impossible.

I agree that that is the elephant in the room

[kraxlhuber]

Okay, I'm beginning to admire this Abhisit guy. He keeps talking about the 70% of Thais who do NOT consider themselves Red or Yellow. Maybe he has studied the successful Western politicians who did the bestjob of wooing the Silent Majorities!'

or maybe? he is a good guy....

Or just maybe BOTH ideas are correct.

But if he is a good guy, then not only is he wooing the silent majority,

but he also realizes that they deserve a voice and is giving them that voice also,

no matter what names and accusations are thrown his way.

The Red Leaders and apologists only try and say that the Amant bureaucrats and such will get consulted,

and deferred to, but I believe that 70% of color less Thais are very much in Abhisits viewpoint,

as needing to be considered/consulted.

'if' 70% are 'in Abhisits viewpoint' then they are yellow and not 'colourless' - if Abhisit left that yellow camp then he would gain tons more credibility - he is not 'colourless' its BS

Can't get past 'your either red or your yellow, can we?

like Bush said:

if you are not with us..than you are against us,that goes for colors(colours) too.

[Chaimai]

There appears to me to be a slight softening of views or, a slight convergence, of some TV posters who hold fundamentally opposing views. Nobody can be right all the time and no one can be wrong all the time.

If only the 'reds' could take a leap of faith into the negotiating arena, I think they would be surprised at the potential progress they could make.

That can ONLY be achieved without that 'elephant in the room'. If this is REALLY not about Thaksin then anything in possible.

Shackled to Thaksin the reds are doomed to 'failure' and the Thai nation as a whole will continue to suffer from entrenchment of their respective positive.

[lannarebirth]

CMF --- for "spin" you will have to consult with your handlers. The ones that turned down a compromise. The ones that let Abhisit speak directly to their followers etc.

It is a pity that you haven't been in Thailand long enough to see how well that the discussions played for the government. If you knew how Thais respect politeness and an attitude of being willing to compromise and hear someone else's opinion, then you would understand how well this played to the rest of the country. Abhisit did what Thais expect out of leaders and Jatuporn came off looking like a thug. Many of the reds that have not been totally braindeadened by the PeopleTV slanted "news" and information will have seen this but more importantly people all over Thailand saw it. It was a big PR "coup" for Abhisit to get that much unobstructed free airtime into the heart of the Red camp.

Abhisit has everr appeared the conciliatory prime minister in this red made mess and the 2 publicly televised discussions just added to his image, while making Jatuporn and Dr Weng look like total reactionaries with no plan at all.*

That no violence has befallen the reds at their rallies has not gone unnoticed by people either. People remember the nightly grenade attacks at Government house (after Sae Daeng, a red leader, announced that there would be grenade attacks). People remember those grenade attacks continueing at Suwannapoom after the AOT closed the airport and walked away. People SEE the grenade attacks happening across bangkok and remember who talked about grenades (Sae Daeng -- the red leader that frequently has visited Thaksin). Then they have now heard jatuporns threat of more to come. Great timing that! "Hey world --- help us!, hey world --- BTW we are planning on making Bangkok look like Thailand's "restive South".

The above PLUS Abhisit's reminder of when the term "double standards" started being used in Thailand (after Thaksin's was not found guilty on his 2001 assets concealment case) certainly made its way through the public's mind.

I don't disagree they didn't come across well - and you know I do not support nor condone violence in any of my posts and have spoken out against it many times - but my point is... they have forced Abhsisit to consider an early election - you should conceed this point.

I'd agree with that. Given that the red shirts are prone to violence and they have shown in the past they don't care who gets hurt or what gets damaged in pursuit of their aims, and given that Abhisit has NEVER resorted to violence against civilians or even criminal demonstrators it was a pretty good ploy to stoke the flames of violent insurrection every night on stage. To symbolically turn a political debate into a bloodletting with the implied threat that class warfare would ensue and blood would flow in the city they came to turn into a "sea of fire" in order to achieve their "democratic" aims. Yeah, those were some pretty crafty and shrewd "political" moves. Thing is, being dumb as a box of rocks, when they were given everything they "said" they wanted they pig headedly turned it down. Now who looks like a fuc_king idiot?

Edited April 1, 2010 by lannarebirth

[bf2002]

You are spewing leftist American Democratic propaganda on one hand and trying to tie it to Thai politics.

The only connection here is:

1. Both countries have the same colors on their flags

2. They are almost on exact opposite sides of the world

This is a Thai discussion board. Talk about American politics in America.

Abhisit like Obama is making great efforts to reach out to the opposition, to show and to demonstrate to the general population - and to global leaders as well as investors - that as PM he is attempting to heal divisions within the society and in the political system and government.

Obama has learned that if the opposition wants to be "the party of 'no' " then it's necessary to procede without their support. Abhisit wants to communicate to all the Thai people that he's trying to unite the country and he knows and is thinking of the country as a whole. This is in sharp contrast to the Redshirts and their leaders who have their short agenda, at the top of which is Thaksin the divider, Thaksin the persistent fugitive, Thaksin the self-interested one.

Obama is meeting with success because of his electoral majority but continues to have a full plate. Abhisit can only dream of a clear electoral victory but is trying to position himself to win by presenting himself as the one who will give up the office if it would benefit the country, that Abhisit is the one who would accept electoral defeat should it occur. Abhisit is thus presenting himself as the man of reason in this unending conflict versus the wild man abroad who is obsessed to return to power and never will stop trying until he is ultimately successful - or ultimately rejected by the electorate in favor of the reasonable and balanced guy, Abhisit who can take or leave losing office (which is probably true).