Falling Out With Thai Friends...

[The Gentleman Scamp]

I've had a fall out with a Thai girl I know who is married to the youngest son of one of my best friends here in England.

Despite the circumstances surrounding me introducing them nearly three years ago and that fact that I possibly remind her of a past she'd rather forget, things have been a bit awkward lodging with Jeff and Aum (not their real names) and although I get on fine with young Jeff, Aum is, by her own admission, very difficult to live with, and she will probably say the same about me - and in awkward and crowded circumstances I suppose I am.

Maybe it was wrong to tell her not to swear so much in her own flat but I know Jeff doesn't like it and there's nothing more pathetic than a Thai attempting to be more western by mimicking all the swearwords she'll inevitably pick up living in a small English town outside London.

Anyway, this was one of many things that caused a little friction and resulted in a rather unpleasant fall out in which I accepted staying there wasn't working out and apologised for a silly, clumsy incident that happened when I was drunk - but when she tried to lecture me I said I wouldn't take it from her, not because she was Thai - but because she didn't know me well enough.

However, one comparison I did make was that apologising to a Thai, even if it's just for the sake of keeping the peace - is a complete waste of time.

Am I correct?

Do Thai's tend to make a big deal of things and bear a grudge more than us westerners?

Am I correct in my observation over the years that if you do something to upset a Thai friend or girlfriend, the words 'forgive, forget and move on' don't come into the equation?

It is thankfully not something that has happened often but when it has, I've found myself apologising until I'm blue in the face and the more I apologise, the more they convince themselves how right they are and how wrong I am, they seem to love making people feel bad when they've screwed up, even if it's over the silliest thing, it's such a big BIG deal.

I've been known to be dramatic and I'm very childish at times but if somebody wrongs me and they apologise, I either accept it or I don't, usually I do but whatever the decision, it's pretty much instant and I don't get off on putting people on a guilt trip.

Again, this is just an observation and not meant to sound in any way racist but it's one of the few negative differences in culture that I have noticed, and I've also had another mis-understanding with a Thai friend in Bangkok via e-mail and have been walking on eggshells because if I just said "###### off, I'm not in the mood" then, unlike a western friend, it would NEVER be forgotten and that would be the end of the friendship which isn't what you want when it's a good friend.

I'm not really having much of a good week with Thai friends, though that doesn't stop me missing the place.

[TRIPxCORE]

Scampy, first of all, I really don't know if they are big on holding grudges or not. Never really tried to anger anyone to find out. Being a predominately Buddhist society, you would think they would be willing to let by-gones be by-gones but I don't know.

Secondly, as in any disagreement, there are three sides to every story. Your side, their side and the truth. Try to take your emotion out of the equation and look objectively at the truth. After you have done that, it might be easier for you to come up with a solution.

Edited May 27, 2005 by tripxcore

[Boon Mee]

From my experience it's the other way around. Farang tend to hold "grudges" much longer than Thai. It has a lot to do with the "mai pen rai" attitude that is inbred within Thais.

They are much more pragmatic w/regard to social situations than Farang can ever hope to be.

[chownah]

Move out. Just be 'really happy' for a few days and then start looking for another place. You are straining your friends' marriage by being there. Move out.

[gburns57au]

you told her off for swearing in her own place, an incident happenend while you were drunk and you objected to her lecturing you...in her place...plus there were other issues causing friction ..in her place.

It is her place....she has the right to put you straight...it would have little to do with the past....unless you introduced them and never told him of her past...in which case she will be on her guard and you are a threat to her.

Do you and them a favour and move out....you may find that the situation may work itself out then....it wont while you are there.

[meadish_sweetball]

I agree with gburns point here. You are on their turf and need to adjust to their reality, they shouldnt have to adjust to yours. Also bear in mind that what you perceive as silly may be a big deal to them... We all have different takes on reality and morals - not only culturally.

That being said, I have made the same observations as you with a few Thais I know, but I am not so sure it is about Thai culture, I think it might rather be a provincial type of attitude regardless of nationality. I know the same kind of thing is rather common in small villages and in the countryside of Sweden where I grew up - people will fall out and not talk to each other for years.

But I HAVE encountered exactly the behaviour you describe here in Thailand, more often that I would like, so I am not saying you dont have a point.

[Tornado]

I think its probably got to do with soapdodging. If a Thai cannot shower twice a day, she will get a little wired.

Get yourself a nice little bedsit, close to a chippy and a house that serves warm beer - you will be set for life!

good luck!

[pnustedt]

No Thais don't bear grudges. Count yourself lucky that you're not staying with me and my wife, you wouldn't live to make this post! She would make a big deal of it.

[siamesekitty]

Depends on the individual I suppose, but if you're talking about tendencies I guess I'll have to say I think Thais tend to hold grudges more, compared to westerners. The "mai pen rai" concept might help diffuse the incident at hand, but a lot of people tend to "gep pai kid nai jai" (keep it on their mind), and it could color your relationships with them in the future.

Edited May 28, 2005 by siamesekitty

[boris]

From my experience it's the other way around.  Farang tend to hold "grudges" much longer than Thai.  It has a lot to do with the "mai pen rai" attitude that is inbred within Thais.

They are much more pragmatic w/regard to social situations than Farang can ever hope to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you are talking about a Thailand in some sort of parallel universe, I would fully agree Thais don't hold grudges when aggrieved.If you are talking about the Thailand which actually exists, look around and smell the coffee!!! The so called mai pen rai attitude only applies to very minor inconveniences and sometimes not even then.

[Neeranam]

However, one comparison I did make was that apologising to a Thai, even if it's just for the sake of keeping the peace - is a complete waste of time.

Am I correct?

Abolutely!!!!!

I have dooone a lot of research into this. It seems that due to their Buddhist belief, once karma has been "made", it cannot be "unmade".

From my experience it's the other way around. Farang tend to hold "grudges" much longer than Thai.

From my experience, Thais hold grudges more than farnags. Farangs just show that they have a grudge.

[bkkmadness]

Your living in someones house and having a go at them for swearing in their own house? Then you say you won't listen to a lecture from her in her own house?

Are you paying rent there (and I don't mean a tenner a week)? If not then you really are being some kind of a.sshole.

Either put up and shut up, or perhaps try standing on your own two feet for once.

[bina]

gep pai kid nai jai

definately.

they will mai pen rai for some things but for others... i've seen guys not speak for a year!!! over something that i think isnt really worth argueing about but every culture has its own worth of things: my worker just argued with 10 other guys over the fact that someone thru a piece of plastic at him at dinner, ('len, len') and normally he would mai pen rai this but since it was his turn to make and serve dinner, he took it to extremes and is now pit jai for the week with them all

another male friend working in america has told me he is now not talking with his best friend there due to: the friend complained too many times about the other guy's cooking (made faces) so there!! he will not speak to this person which is really too bad since he really needs a good friend while away from home

etc etc...

i suspect that meadish hit it spot on: small town living means that small pettinesses often boil over since there is no way to avoid the person for short time... on kibbutz we have same pattern of behavior: people who for really stupid reasons do not speak for years! and who once were very close friends but we see each other every day at work and home so the grudge grows due to seeing the person and being reminded of the 'small' complaint over and over and over....

if u just leave it alone for a while, and lay low, and mostly act neutral , it blows over eventually... if u confront and try to discuss, it seems to make things worse

i cant speak for thai society in thailand i only see what happens daily in groups of all thai males living in close surroundings in israel, but i see a lot of this 'pit jai' for the week stuff over stupid things and mai pen rai over similar things probably depending on personality, and circumstance and of course, the 'sia na' thing (losing face) thing

and before people rush out and say: generalization and people are people etc, yes, but there are cultural aspects of dealing with anger, irritation, etc : americans i'm sure would say: 'he has some issues to work out' , israelis just yell louder and swear by their mother's eyes that they are in the right (israelis are jai ron, no such thing as mai pen rai, everything is critical and problematic), etc etc etc....

oh, and ... MOVE OUT.... visit two weeks later or so with some beer and flowers etc and dont mention anything about what happend, but remember, she wont forget but she wont stir it up either i suspect

[Ajarn]

From my experience it's the other way around.  Farang tend to hold "grudges" much longer than Thai.  It has a lot to do with the "mai pen rai" attitude that is inbred within Thais.

They are much more pragmatic w/regard to social situations than Farang can ever hope to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you are talking about a Thailand in some sort of parallel universe, I would fully agree Thais don't hold grudges when aggrieved.If you are talking about the Thailand which actually exists, look around and smell the coffee!!! The so called mai pen rai attitude only applies to very minor inconveniences and sometimes not even then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boris, I agree. The Mai Pen Rai is mostly for situations not really involving face, I feel They may say it as a way to show good face, but in their mind, they might be planning your demise. And, as far as my experience has seen, forgetting is not a vwell-used option, it seems.

I've joked with many Thais about this issue, and all readily agree that grudges tend to go on and on... One main reaon why I go well out of my way to try to insure good communication with all here.

On the mai pen rai front, living here has taught me a lot about tolerance. Before I came here, I pretty much never tolerated anything or anybody. I've become much more peacefull here, thanks to the lessons from Thais regarding social interactions.

Edited May 28, 2005 by Ajarn

[RDN]

Thai girls are like elephants - they never forget

[Boon Mee]

From my experience it's the other way around.  Farang tend to hold "grudges" much longer than Thai.  It has a lot to do with the "mai pen rai" attitude that is inbred within Thais.

They are much more pragmatic w/regard to social situations than Farang can ever hope to be.

If you are talking about a Thailand in some sort of parallel universe, I would fully agree Thais don't hold grudges when aggrieved.If you are talking about the Thailand which actually exists, look around and smell the coffee!!! The so called mai pen rai attitude only applies to very minor inconveniences and sometimes not even then.

Boris Buddy!

Guess I haven't yet "aggrieved" any Thais to the extent you're on about and hope I never do!

Edited May 28, 2005 by Boon Mee

[The_Moog]

We had an alcoholic come to stay once. He kept wandering around the flat wearing saggy y fronts showing off his gomers.

My Thai wife said 'get him to cover up, he can't do this in a Thai house'

...so he covered his nuts for about 5 minutes, then took his trakkie bottoms off again saying he was too hot.

His contribution to the house was a litre of vodka and a bag of grapes.

Upon time to leave, my wife heard his girlfriend whispering to him, 'shall we take our things from the fridge', and he, under his breath, replied 'uh, yeah yeah, of course'

Like, one inch of vodka and about six grapes.

Eeee .....how we chuckled.

[Totster]

From my experience, Thais  hold grudges more than farnags. Farangs just show that they have a grudge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with this..... If anyone crosses my wife, or upsets her in some way, she will never talk to them again. What I mean is never start a conversation, if they aknowledge her or start a conversation, she will be polite and talk, but only the bare minimum. And it seems it will stay this way for life.

Her Sister is the same, and also some others I have met ( it's just the things you hear about when they are gossiping about someone )

Scamp... I really think you were a bit out of order telling her how to speak in her own house, even if you don't agree. She may have seen it as loss of face, if so, can't see you apologising out of that one.

totster

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Your living in someones house and having a go at them for swearing in their own house?  Then you say you won't listen to a lecture from her in her own house?

Are you paying rent there (and I don't mean a tenner a week)? If not then you really are being some kind of a.sshole.

Either put up and shut up, or perhaps try standing on your own two feet for once.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was staying there for just a week and I agreed to move out for the sake of my friend... Because I introduced him to his wife I think she saw that as a debt they owed to me which is ludicrous.

I had a polite word with HER last week for swearing all the time because it made her husband cringe and I admit it was more difficult for me to see it as her house as well as his.

As I went straight into work on my first day back then I would have been willing to pay something towards rent but I was only in town for ten days and they saw me as a guest, and in hindsight it was a bad idea considering she and I have secretly never really liked each other and that she probably does see me as a threat, not that she has too.

What she doesn't know is that I kick myself for taking him to Soi Cowboy instead of introducing her to a wonderful country girl called Jit who is now with a jealous Thai husband, but that's not for me to judge - so long as they are happy that is all that is important.

I screwed up and I burnt my bridges there but the only one with any animosity is her, the mother in law is still very good friends with me and feels a bit stuck in the middle and I don't want there to be any grudges for the sake of her and her son.

Having a pop at me BkkMadness, especially that last line, makes you somewhat of an as*hole seeing as you only know the info you've been given and you only know as much about me as I choose to make public.

I have already left, I've been gardening all day for another friend and I fly to Scotland with my friend (The mother in law) next week for a few days before starting a job in Aberdeen.

I'm surprised that you of all people have chosen to flame me, at 28 years old I'd be even more surprised if you had never fallen out with somebody as a result of alcohol induced folly on your part so please don't do it again, we are not all fortunate in life and some of us struggle more than others and this post was about Thai people and grudges, not about me, and you don't have a right to lecture me the same as she didn't.

Try that again and i'll be in the next plane to Bangkok to find you and give you a slap round the face with a big wet salmon.

Edited May 28, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp

[bkkmadness]

My point is the girl has a right to hold a grudge against you because you stay as a guest at her house and make comments regarding how she speaks badly, thats just rude and that makes you an a.sshole. Do you not know how to behave in another persons house?

It doesn't matter whether you have a fortunate life or not, its simple common courtesy at 30s years you should have mastered the basics by now.

And why, because you disagree with it as a guest or because you want to help her husband out? Surely its his and her's business and certainly none of yours.

I don't think her being Thai effects her reaction, most people would give you a similar reaction. And I don't think coming on a forum to ask how whether all Thai people keep grudges is a very good way to find out if this individual girl keeps a grudge, perhaps ask someone that knows her?

Do you not agree with any criticism about you because they dont know the depths of the great Scamps problems and mind, is that why you accept no criticism from me or the girl in question?

Or do you think all your lifes problems were not caused by you, but by the record company letting you down, your father, all the Thai people, blah blah blah, etc etc etc. We have all heard your excuses for ages now. Grow up and take some responsibilty for yourself.

It's a public forum, I do have my right to my opinion just as you do Scamp but if you want posts just praising you for your hard lifes struggles then perhaps you should just mention it in your topic title.

My opinion is complete boredom with it, this topic and the last one generalising all the Thais as a whole just because you couldn't hack it living abroad.

I've wished you good luck many a time with things, but sometimes your whinging just goes to far to the point of coming on the interent asking opinions on a whole race of people so you can deal with one of them at home.

Edited May 28, 2005 by bkkmadness

[The Gentleman Scamp]

My point is the girl has a right to hold a grudge against you because you stay as a guest at her house and make comments regarding how she speaks badly, thats just rude and that makes you an a.sshole.  Do you not know how to behave in another persons house? 

It doesn't matter whether you have a fortunate life or not, its simple common courtesy at 30s years you should have mastered the basics by now.

And why, because you disagree with it as a guest or because you want to help her husband out?  Surely its his and her's business and certainly none of yours.

I don't think her being Thai effects her reaction, most people would give you a similar reaction.  And I don't think coming on a forum to ask how whether all Thai people keep grudges is a very good way to find out if this individual girl keeps a grudge, perhaps ask someone that knows her?

Do you not agree with any criticism about you because they dont know the depths of the great Scamps problems and mind, is that why you accept no criticism from me or the girl in question?

  Or do you think all your lifes problems were not caused by you, but by the record company letting you down, your father, all the Thai people, blah blah blah, etc etc etc.  We have all heard your excuses for ages now.   Grow up and take some responsibilty for yourself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I already have, I never said I was right, or that I didn't screw up - I admit, I was rude to her and I made it even worse by making Thai/Farang comparisons.

This is why I feel bad about it because I fanned the flames and I've created a bad atmosphere for two good friends in the future, who have incedentally no problem with me and understand that sometimes two people just don't get on and that when alcohol is involved, it makes things worse.

The fact that I have been drinking too much of late, or that I am stubborn, sometimes thoughtless, selfish and don't know when to shut up is irrelevant to the post.

Read the title before posting again mate.

Edited May 28, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp

[bkkmadness]

ok, read the title, hrmm, some are, some aren't, there's the answer.

If you wish to find out in the individual case, ask a person whos knows that individual.

And you had to come on the internet to find that out?

Edited May 28, 2005 by bkkmadness

[The Gentleman Scamp]

ok, read the title, hrmm, some are, some aren't, there's the answer.

If you wish to find out in the individual case, ask a person whos knows that individual.

And you had to come on the internet to find that out?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes but I'm making a generalisation, and there are generalisations when you're talking about two very different cultures.

[bkkmadness]

Well from my experience its not something easily generalised, and I don't think the cultures are as different as people often think.

Edited May 28, 2005 by bkkmadness

[The_Moog]

Scampo---- is this affronted Thai lady an ex-hooker?

[Pie Boy]

Who is this scampster fella? Regardless of what went on, who the ###### is he to lecture his 'friends' wife in their own home? Surely the concern should be his relationship with the husband as much as the wife.This has got sod all to do with Thailand and more to do with some smart arse who needs to learn there is a time for talking and a time for listening.

Everyone is capable of holding a grudge often exhibited in many different ways.Get real , stop analysing and life will become much more enjoyable.

[bkkmadness]

What the annoying pioint is, that instead of facing up to just being rude, he wont take all the blame for the situation, but instead thinks of it as a racial fault in the girl, and then comes on to a forum to qualify his reasoning that all Thais hold grudges.

I can almost imagine the Scamp thinking:

"It could never be the my fault of course, I wasn't too rude and I did make an apology, it's those bloody Thais with their cultural differences, all my pals on thaivisa will tell me the same and I'll be absolved from blame, once again, me the Scamp a victim of the world and people around me"

Edited May 28, 2005 by bkkmadness

[Totster]

Scampo---- is this affronted Thai lady an ex-hooker?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why should that matter.... what a stupid question

totster

[DragonLad]

Your living in someones house and having a go at them for swearing in their own house?  Then you say you won't listen to a lecture from her in her own house?

Are you paying rent there (and I don't mean a tenner a week)? If not then you really are being some kind of a.sshole.

Either put up and shut up, or perhaps try standing on your own two feet for once.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I Agree!!!! You are in someone else's home. Just because you helped both these people in the past, it does not mean you can tell them what to do in their own house.

Maybe this is why she has a "grudge" against you

[Ajarn]

Thai girls are like elephants - they never forget

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a Thai saying that refers to the wife as the hind legs (supporter) of the elephant.... I sometimes reminded myself within earshot of my wife that it's the butt, too