Can Someone Help Me To Understand Land Rules?

[clautier]

My brother-in-law is Canadian but married to a Thai woman. A few years ago my husband contributed some money to help them buy about 20 rai of unimproved land on Lanta, in the hope that it would increase in value in the coming years. When they bought it its status was #5 (I believe). Now it has electrical service and a road. We just received news that the land is about to go No So Sahm (#3). Suddenly, the land office says we have to come up with about $40,000 (haggled down by my Thai sister-in-law from twice as much) by the new year (April 13)! We are told that once we pay that sum, the land will be No So Sahm within a week, and worth about 10 to 12 times what we originally paid for it. I am getting all this information second-hand so I don't understand fully how the system works. Are we certain to recoup our investment here, assuming we are then able to sell the land? Clarification of the process would be greatly appreciated.

[worldfun]

LOL LOL LOL $40,000 in land office bribes to get an 'upgrade' in land title from #4 to #3?

well it would seem it's a long & winded road to a real 'chanote' (proper #1 land title verifying you as owner with full development rights etc).

Surely no such bribes are part of any 'system,' here, but given the land is 'bought' by a foreigner in a high profile resort island (Lanta) why are we not surprised?

So what was original purchase price & how many rai's? Less than $40k I assume (per rai)...

Good luck!

Edited April 6, 2010 by worldfun

[thaiwanderer]

Clarification of corruption and 'certainty'. Are you serious?

[clautier]

LOL LOL LOL $40,000 in land office bribes to get an 'upgrade' in land title from #4 to #3?

well it would seem it's a long & winded road to a real 'chanote' (proper #1 land title verifying you as owner with full development rights etc).

Surely no such bribes are part of any 'system,' here, but given the land is 'bought' by a foreigner in a high profile resort island (Lanta) why are we not surprised?

So what was original purchase price & how many rai's? Less than $40k I assume (per rai)...

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I'm aware it's a bribe -- but is there any way around it? We are foreigners, but my sister-in-law is Thai and it's in her name. She's the one who has been dealing with the 'officials' on this thing. Anyway it's about 20 rai on top of a hill with ocean views. We paid less than $30K for the entire parcel originally so that's about $1,500 per rai. My first instinct was to flat out refuse the $40,000 because it's extortion. Should we keep trying to talk them down? Are there any TRUE official channels we could go through or are we stuck with this situation because we're outsiders?

[Irene]

LOL LOL LOL $40,000 in land office bribes to get an 'upgrade' in land title from #4 to #3?

well it would seem it's a long & winded road to a real 'chanote' (proper #1 land title verifying you as owner with full development rights etc).

Surely no such bribes are part of any 'system,' here, but given the land is 'bought' by a foreigner in a high profile resort island (Lanta) why are we not surprised?

So what was original purchase price & how many rai's? Less than $40k I assume (per rai)...

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I'm aware it's a bribe -- but is there any way around it? We are foreigners, but my sister-in-law is Thai and it's in her name. She's the one who has been dealing with the 'officials' on this thing. Anyway it's about 20 rai on top of a hill with ocean views. We paid less than $30K for the entire parcel originally so that's about $1,500 per rai. My first instinct was to flat out refuse the $40,000 because it's extortion. Should we keep trying to talk them down? Are there any TRUE official channels we could go through or are we stuck with this situation because we're outsiders?

My family's experience of having the status of Nor Sor Sahm 3 lifted up to a real chanote (full title deed) was very routine. We received a notice from the district land office telling us that we were entitled to convert our previous NSM 3 now. We went there and paid a small fee and got our chanote. This may be different from your lower grading and being at Lanta (ours is in Saraburi, not a cashy land yet).

Now you need to find out from the Thai wife whether others in the adjacent area have got this uplifting and whether it has cost them anything. (in other words, find out whether 40K is heard of or common among the neighbouring owners). Another thing you need to find out is to recap from your relationship with this Thai whether she has been trustworthy with your family, (just try to recall some small things). Remember that you must have trusted her for having bought the land under her name. Can you trust her further for this 40K? Is it really true that once the grading is lifted up, then you can have your gain less this 40K? (this is crucial since you don't want to take more risk if it turns out to be an airy expectation of salable value. I have heard so much how high the land price is worth but you cannot find a buyer).

Well, that is my opinion for whatever its worth. BTW, if you decide not to go along with paying 40K, then don't say "No" immediately, you should just say that "you will think about it, since your resource is now quite limited because of the economy in Canada". Why? Because you might find out eventually how true is the demand of the 40K. If there is no feedback afterwards, then it could be true. But if there is a reduction to say 20K, then watch out, this woman is in need of money.

[caf]

LOL LOL LOL $40,000 in land office bribes to get an 'upgrade' in land title from #4 to #3?

well it would seem it's a long & winded road to a real 'chanote' (proper #1 land title verifying you as owner with full development rights etc).

Surely no such bribes are part of any 'system,' here, but given the land is 'bought' by a foreigner in a high profile resort island (Lanta) why are we not surprised?

So what was original purchase price & how many rai's? Less than $40k I assume (per rai)...

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I'm aware it's a bribe -- but is there any way around it? We are foreigners, but my sister-in-law is Thai and it's in her name. She's the one who has been dealing with the 'officials' on this thing. Anyway it's about 20 rai on top of a hill with ocean views. We paid less than $30K for the entire parcel originally so that's about $1,500 per rai. My first instinct was to flat out refuse the $40,000 because it's extortion. Should we keep trying to talk them down? Are there any TRUE official channels we could go through or are we stuck with this situation because we're outsiders?

You don't like the nature of the corruption but that is the game that is played here.

You say: "Are we certain to recoup our investment here, "

You did not make an investment. You used your money for someone to buy land in their name. i.e it is their land.

No TRUE official channel can support you in that can they?

caf

[clautier]

LOL LOL LOL $40,000 in land office bribes to get an 'upgrade' in land title from #4 to #3?

well it would seem it's a long & winded road to a real 'chanote' (proper #1 land title verifying you as owner with full development rights etc).

Surely no such bribes are part of any 'system,' here, but given the land is 'bought' by a foreigner in a high profile resort island (Lanta) why are we not surprised?

So what was original purchase price & how many rai's? Less than $40k I assume (per rai)...

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I'm aware it's a bribe -- but is there any way around it? We are foreigners, but my sister-in-law is Thai and it's in her name. She's the one who has been dealing with the 'officials' on this thing. Anyway it's about 20 rai on top of a hill with ocean views. We paid less than $30K for the entire parcel originally so that's about $1,500 per rai. My first instinct was to flat out refuse the $40,000 because it's extortion. Should we keep trying to talk them down? Are there any TRUE official channels we could go through or are we stuck with this situation because we're outsiders?

My family's experience of having the status of Nor Sor Sahm 3 lifted up to a real chanote (full title deed) was very routine. We received a notice from the district land office telling us that we were entitled to convert our previous NSM 3 now. We went there and paid a small fee and got our chanote. This may be different from your lower grading and being at Lanta (ours is in Saraburi, not a cashy land yet).

Now you need to find out from the Thai wife whether others in the adjacent area have got this uplifting and whether it has cost them anything. (in other words, find out whether 40K is heard of or common among the neighbouring owners). Another thing you need to find out is to recap from your relationship with this Thai whether she has been trustworthy with your family, (just try to recall some small things). Remember that you must have trusted her for having bought the land under her name. Can you trust her further for this 40K? Is it really true that once the grading is lifted up, then you can have your gain less this 40K? (this is crucial since you don't want to take more risk if it turns out to be an airy expectation of salable value. I have heard so much how high the land price is worth but you cannot find a buyer).

Well, that is my opinion for whatever its worth. BTW, if you decide not to go along with paying 40K, then don't say "No" immediately, you should just say that "you will think about it, since your resource is now quite limited because of the economy in Canada". Why? Because you might find out eventually how true is the demand of the 40K. If there is no feedback afterwards, then it could be true. But if there is a reduction to say 20K, then watch out, this woman is in need of money.

Thank you very much, Irene. Your reply is greatly appreciated! I'll re-post with what happens...

[Irene]

LOL LOL LOL $40,000 in land office bribes to get an 'upgrade' in land title from #4 to #3?

well it would seem it's a long & winded road to a real 'chanote' (proper #1 land title verifying you as owner with full development rights etc).

Surely no such bribes are part of any 'system,' here, but given the land is 'bought' by a foreigner in a high profile resort island (Lanta) why are we not surprised?

So what was original purchase price & how many rai's? Less than $40k I assume (per rai)...

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I'm aware it's a bribe -- but is there any way around it? We are foreigners, but my sister-in-law is Thai and it's in her name. She's the one who has been dealing with the 'officials' on this thing. Anyway it's about 20 rai on top of a hill with ocean views. We paid less than $30K for the entire parcel originally so that's about $1,500 per rai. My first instinct was to flat out refuse the $40,000 because it's extortion. Should we keep trying to talk them down? Are there any TRUE official channels we could go through or are we stuck with this situation because we're outsiders?

You don't like the nature of the corruption but that is the game that is played here.

You say: "Are we certain to recoup our investment here, "

You did not make an investment. You used your money for someone to buy land in their name. i.e it is their land.

No TRUE official channel can support you in that can they?

caf

OP did not seek for a philosophical opinion. She sought for any idea to guide her to make a decision especially those who could be in the same situation especially in Lanta or Phuket or Samui. I do wish those who do not have any idea just keep quiet instead of doubling the pain on OP in teaching her lessons for ever taking risk in buying land through a Thai or aversion on corruption. The premise is given and no insult, please.

The trouble with this forum is having too many compulsive opinionated writers who just post on whatever reactions they have. Humorous comment is good to lighten up OP's concern but not those "serving you right" responses. Do have feeling for an OP. OP is not seeking for judgment on his or her deed but for ways out especially those who may have the same experience. With those compulsive writers around, I bet that there are many who could have helped but prefer not to because of not wishing to mix up with this undesirable lot.

[mallyrd]

LOL LOL LOL $40,000 in land office bribes to get an 'upgrade' in land title from #4 to #3?

well it would seem it's a long & winded road to a real 'chanote' (proper #1 land title verifying you as owner with full development rights etc).

Surely no such bribes are part of any 'system,' here, but given the land is 'bought' by a foreigner in a high profile resort island (Lanta) why are we not surprised?

So what was original purchase price & how many rai's? Less than $40k I assume (per rai)...

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I'm aware it's a bribe -- but is there any way around it? We are foreigners, but my sister-in-law is Thai and it's in her name. She's the one who has been dealing with the 'officials' on this thing. Anyway it's about 20 rai on top of a hill with ocean views. We paid less than $30K for the entire parcel originally so that's about $1,500 per rai. My first instinct was to flat out refuse the $40,000 because it's extortion. Should we keep trying to talk them down? Are there any TRUE official channels we could go through or are we stuck with this situation because we're outsiders?

You don't like the nature of the corruption but that is the game that is played here.

You say: "Are we certain to recoup our investment here, "

You did not make an investment. You used your money for someone to buy land in their name. i.e it is their land.

No TRUE official channel can support you in that can they?

caf

OP did not seek for a philosophical opinion. She sought for any idea to guide her to make a decision especially those who could be in the same situation especially in Lanta or Phuket or Samui. I do wish those who do not have any idea just keep quiet instead of doubling the pain on OP in teaching her lessons for ever taking risk in buying land through a Thai or aversion on corruption. The premise is given and no insult, please.

The trouble with this forum is having too many compulsive opinionated writers who just post on whatever reactions they have. Humorous comment is good to lighten up OP's concern but not those "serving you right" responses. Do have feeling for an OP. OP is not seeking for judgment on his or her deed but for ways out especially those who may have the same experience. With those compulsive writers around, I bet that there are many who could have helped but prefer not to because of not wishing to mix up with this undesirable lot.

HEAR HEAR

[caf]

I am not being philosophical and I feel for the opening poster.

But look at what she said.

"My brother-in-law is Canadian but married to a Thai woman. A few years ago my husband contributed some money to help them buy about 20 rai of unimproved land on Lanta, in the hope that it would increase in value in the coming years. When they bought it its status was #5 (I believe). Now it has electrical service and a road. We just received news that the land is about to go No So Sahm (#3). Suddenly, the land office says we have to come up with about $40,000 (haggled down by my Thai sister-in-law from twice as much) by the new year (April 13)! We are told that once we pay that sum, the land will be No So Sahm within a week, and worth about 10 to 12 times what we originally paid for it. I am getting all this information second-hand so I don't understand fully how the system works. Are we certain to recoup our investment here, assuming we are then able to sell the land? Clarification of the process would be greatly appreciated. "

If she did not understand the laws or was misinformed when she bought the land as an investment hoping to make herself some money here then I certainly symphathise. I don't agree with their land laws. We can't own land but there are many rich and influential Thais with expensive property portfolios in for example London. Totally unfair in my view but that is the law both in Thaialnd and the UK.

But in this case it would seem that she knew what she was doing and is now aggrieved that her risk is coming unstuck.

Does she really not know how the system works. Did she really not know that what she was doing as effectively a "nominee" was illegal; putting an investment, as she herself calls it, in a thai's name?

Just to reiterate. I think the system is unfair but if you live here then keep to the law. If you don't then you really have to face the consequences. The laws here are not "WHAT WE WOULD LIKE" they are "WHAT THEY ARE"

And look up philosophical. I am not being philosophical . I am stating what the actual position is. What you mean of course is that you don't like the system here, that the law should be changed to that similar to the west. and that should keep any profits you make from land appreciation.

So stop the flames and stick to facts.

caf

[Irene]

I am not being philosophical and I feel for the opening poster.

But look at what she said.

"My brother-in-law is Canadian but married to a Thai woman. A few years ago my husband contributed some money to help them buy about 20 rai of unimproved land on Lanta, in the hope that it would increase in value in the coming years. When they bought it its status was #5 (I believe). Now it has electrical service and a road. We just received news that the land is about to go No So Sahm (#3). Suddenly, the land office says we have to come up with about $40,000 (haggled down by my Thai sister-in-law from twice as much) by the new year (April 13)! We are told that once we pay that sum, the land will be No So Sahm within a week, and worth about 10 to 12 times what we originally paid for it. I am getting all this information second-hand so I don't understand fully how the system works. Are we certain to recoup our investment here, assuming we are then able to sell the land? Clarification of the process would be greatly appreciated. "

If she did not understand the laws or was misinformed when she bought the land as an investment hoping to make herself some money here then I certainly symphathise. I don't agree with their land laws. We can't own land but there are many rich and influential Thais with expensive property portfolios in for example London. Totally unfair in my view but that is the law both in Thaialnd and the UK.

But in this case it would seem that she knew what she was doing and is now aggrieved that her risk is coming unstuck.

Does she really not know how the system works. Did she really not know that what she was doing as effectively a "nominee" was illegal; putting an investment, as she herself calls it, in a thai's name?

Just to reiterate. I think the system is unfair but if you live here then keep to the law. If you don't then you really have to face the consequences. The laws here are not "WHAT WE WOULD LIKE" they are "WHAT THEY ARE"

And look up philosophical. I am not being philosophical . I am stating what the actual position is. What you mean of course is that you don't like the system here, that the law should be changed to that similar to the west. and that should keep any profits you make from land appreciation.

So stop the flames and stick to facts.

caf

Do you have answers to her problems? I can see that you do not have. Then keep quiet, don't dam_n her. Your above explanation just proves my point. Then I also see that you do not get my message either.

[caf]

I am not being philosophical and I feel for the opening poster.

But look at what she said.

"My brother-in-law is Canadian but married to a Thai woman. A few years ago my husband contributed some money to help them buy about 20 rai of unimproved land on Lanta, in the hope that it would increase in value in the coming years. When they bought it its status was #5 (I believe). Now it has electrical service and a road. We just received news that the land is about to go No So Sahm (#3). Suddenly, the land office says we have to come up with about $40,000 (haggled down by my Thai sister-in-law from twice as much) by the new year (April 13)! We are told that once we pay that sum, the land will be No So Sahm within a week, and worth about 10 to 12 times what we originally paid for it. I am getting all this information second-hand so I don't understand fully how the system works. Are we certain to recoup our investment here, assuming we are then able to sell the land? Clarification of the process would be greatly appreciated. "

If she did not understand the laws or was misinformed when she bought the land as an investment hoping to make herself some money here then I certainly symphathise. I don't agree with their land laws. We can't own land but there are many rich and influential Thais with expensive property portfolios in for example London. Totally unfair in my view but that is the law both in Thaialnd and the UK.

But in this case it would seem that she knew what she was doing and is now aggrieved that her risk is coming unstuck.

Does she really not know how the system works. Did she really not know that what she was doing as effectively a "nominee" was illegal; putting an investment, as she herself calls it, in a thai's name?

Just to reiterate. I think the system is unfair but if you live here then keep to the law. If you don't then you really have to face the consequences. The laws here are not "WHAT WE WOULD LIKE" they are "WHAT THEY ARE"

And look up philosophical. I am not being philosophical . I am stating what the actual position is. What you mean of course is that you don't like the system here, that the law should be changed to that similar to the west. and that should keep any profits you make from land appreciation.

So stop the flames and stick to facts.

caf

Do you have answers to her problems? I can see that you do not have. Then keep quiet, don't dam_n her. Your above explanation just proves my point. Then I also see that you do not get my message either.

Irene, with the greatest respect , you need to read. I do not agree with the rules on land here. I made that very clear.

I am not damning her. She has committed an illegal act. And you are right I have no solutions for her doing that.

If you don't believe me and you want to help her then I suggest you suggest that she goes to a lawyer ( 50k baht), then go to a court ( and pay a percentage of her "claim" 1% of land value ??) and explain the nominee position and the intent to profit on land to three Thai judges who will have the civil and commercial code open in front of them.

You obviously have no experience of living in Thailand and complying with Thai laws.

Caf

And flaming only shows the sort of person you are and why Thais have problems with these farang " better than thou - this is not how we do it in the west" attitudes

[Irene]

Caf,

I have lived in Thailand for 43 years with a son of 43 years old. My family has been in legal field and property business for ages and have never run foul of Thai laws. I speak and write Thai fluently and read 5 Thai newspapers daily in addition to Bangkok Post, the Nation, Financial Times, International Herald Tribune and weekly, the Economist. I sit in various governmental committees for almost 30 years and now still involved with two committees.

Need I say more? Now how are you going to label me beside "You obviously have no experience of living in Thailand and complying with Thai laws. And flaming only shows the sort of person you are and why Thais have problems with these farang " better than thou - this is not how we do it in the west" attitudes

I care for this forum that is why I offer my view on crudeness and self-righteousness in this forum.

[lannarebirth]

My wife has owned land in Thailand for many years. As a rule she does not pay gratuities to public officials when asked. The one time she was persuaded to (at 1/40th of what you're being asked for) by a puyai baan the public official failed to follow through with the upgrades he'd promised for the parcels in her vicinity. In due course (18 months later) the land department got around to upgrading the entire area at no expense to landholders. I don't know how things work on the islands but that's our experience. Good Luck

Edited April 7, 2010 by lannarebirth

[caf]

I have sent Irene a second pm; and I have sent clautier a pm with a possible solution to the problem she has.

As this seems to be bordering on an illegal transaction and against forum rules as well as a pretext for flaming I am not making any further posts on the open forum on this thread

[Irene]

Is OP’s transaction illegal? OP’s question did not explicitly say that the Thai wife hold land for the Canadian couple. The closest was the Canadians “contributed some money to help them buy” the land. That can mean as a loan from the Canadian couple rather than the Canadian couple having the land ownership through the brother’s Thai wife as a nominee holder. So what is all the excitement about OP’s question? Just because one knows of the word “nominee” that was popularised by the high-profile case of Temasek, (a Singapore state investment company) on its nominee shareholdings by a Thai in a telecom company, one just uses that word unsparingly. There can be either a correct nominee or an unacceptable nominee. As the result of the case, nominee in Thailand is exclusively viewed as dubious. As to the case of nominee holding in land of a Thai wife, I and my colleagues are not aware of a single case officially challenged by the authority yet. The closest one was the guidance of the Director-General of the Land Department threatened Thai wife for buying land on behalf of her husband. Again, the word “nominee” was used. In the Thai legal circle, they all chuckle on the guidance since, under Thai basic laws, property is regarded as jointly owned by both husband and wife, so how can a wife be accused for holding land for her husband. But the announcement has its desired effect in having scared off a lot of foreigners and also causing many to stick to this DG’s notion unwittingly, possibly after having only read the news in the Bangkok Post on this DG’s announcement and his interview. Once some persons see a Thai wife holding land with her husband’s or brother-in-law’s money, there would be a scream of illegality. I would just say hold your horse and look at the gist of each situation first. For example, is it a real marriage?

Is OP’s “collateral” or “ownership” in that Lanta land illegal? That depends on the

details of the arrangement of the “loan”. On the face of OP’s question, it is still legitimate on its sibling

relationship that the “loan” was granted to his brother and certainly not to the brother’s Thai wife.

Returning to OP’s immediate concern as to pay or not to pay 40K, after reading another writer’s

experience (#14) which is similar to ours, it now dawned on me that the upgrading is done as a blanket

cover for each district and not discretionarily on each piece of land. Lannarebirth #14 described “In due

course (18 months later) the land department got around to upgrading the entire area at no expense to

landholders. I don't know how things work on the islands but that's our experience.”. That is similar to our

Saraburi land. If the Thai wife can wait, a letter will come around eventually. If no buyer is waiting to buy

her land now, or there is no threat to the wife’s right of ownership (because #4 is less strong against

encroachment than #3), then it might be better to wait since the committee may have already approved

and ordered the bureaucrats to issue upgraded titleship. The corruption money demanded may be real or

imaginary. If it is real, then it is for jumping the queue since the deeds of NS3 must have been printed in

bulk and waiting for signatures.

The more important part is how the Canadian couple can have their debts refunded with interest or gain

when eventually there is a sale. That is the time when one knows the real colour of the wife and whether

he has got the right spouse.

Why do I get involved? Because I saw the question highlighted in the Nation online and thought that I had

the experience that OP can benefit and felt painful for OP on some of the replies given. Will I benefit from

having more fee-paying clients? Not at all, because I have already retired from the practice and now right

in the midst of stock and property investments

(I was suspended by the moderator for 24 hours for having the contents of one writer, who sent his message privately to my inbox, copied and highlighted under this thread. It was subsequently deleted by the moderator. I regret this lapse. The moderator has advised me to block this inward mail in future should I desire to do so.)

[thaiwanderer]

I have lived in Thailand for 43 years with a son of 43 years old. My family has been in legal field and property business for ages and have never run foul of Thai laws. I speak and write Thai fluently and read 5 Thai newspapers daily in addition to Bangkok Post, the Nation, Financial Times, International Herald Tribune and weekly, the Economist. I sit in various governmental committees for almost 30 years and now still involved with two committees.

And you're still not Thai?

[Irene]

I have lived in Thailand for 43 years with a son of 43 years old. My family has been in legal field and property business for ages and have never run foul of Thai laws. I speak and write Thai fluently and read 5 Thai newspapers daily in addition to Bangkok Post, the Nation, Financial Times, International Herald Tribune and weekly, the Economist. I sit in various governmental committees for almost 30 years and now still involved with two committees.

And you're still not Thai?

Just guess!

[GuestHouse]

Forget the land laws and get back to basics.

If rule 1 of investments is not to put all your eggs in one basket it's only rule 1 because nobody dreamed someone would be as stupid as to put all their eggs in someone else's basket.

My advice tell the Thai in this 'relationship' to secure a loan against the land to cover the cost of the back-hander and then when the deal is done, the title upgraded sell, pay off the loan, pay off the Canadian benefactors and pocket the profit...... Oh sh1t that won't work will it? It misses the chance to get more free Canadian Dollars while still maintaining the land title.

OK I give up.

Please return to your 'I'm more Thai than you are" pizzing contest.

[oracle]

You have no guarantees that you get your 'investment' back or that it will be upgraded, and you will never control the selling, nor is your brother in law. What is the deal you pay $40,000 and get back $???,000, related to the 10 to 12 times value increase you mention in your previous post. Sure

Get details of the land and hire a lawyer and have him do some checking on the upgrade and money involved.

[caf]

Is OP’s transaction illegal? OP’s question did not explicitly say that the Thai wife hold land for the Canadian couple. The closest was the Canadians “contributed some money to help them buy” the land. That can mean as a loan from the Canadian couple rather than the Canadian couple having the land ownership through the brother’s Thai wife as a nominee holder. So what is all the excitement about OP’s question? Just because one knows of the word “nominee” that was popularised by the high-profile case of Temasek, (a Singapore state investment company) on its nominee shareholdings by a Thai in a telecom company, one just uses that word unsparingly. There can be either a correct nominee or an unacceptable nominee. As the result of the case, nominee in Thailand is exclusively viewed as dubious. As to the case of nominee holding in land of a Thai wife, I and my colleagues are not aware of a single case officially challenged by the authority yet. The closest one was the guidance of the Director-General of the Land Department threatened Thai wife for buying land on behalf of her husband. Again, the word “nominee” was used. In the Thai legal circle, they all chuckle on the guidance since, under Thai basic laws, property is regarded as jointly owned by both husband and wife, so how can a wife be accused for holding land for her husband. But the announcement has its desired effect in having scared off a lot of foreigners and also causing many to stick to this DG’s notion unwittingly, possibly after having only read the news in the Bangkok Post on this DG’s announcement and his interview. Once some persons see a Thai wife holding land with her husband’s or brother-in-law’s money, there would be a scream of illegality. I would just say hold your horse and look at the gist of each situation first. For example, is it a real marriage?

Is OP’s “collateral” or “ownership” in that Lanta land illegal? That depends on the

details of the arrangement of the “loan”. On the face of OP’s question, it is still legitimate on its sibling

relationship that the “loan” was granted to his brother and certainly not to the brother’s Thai wife.

Returning to OP’s immediate concern as to pay or not to pay 40K, after reading another writer’s

experience (#14) which is similar to ours, it now dawned on me that the upgrading is done as a blanket

cover for each district and not discretionarily on each piece of land. Lannarebirth #14 described “In due

course (18 months later) the land department got around to upgrading the entire area at no expense to

landholders. I don't know how things work on the islands but that's our experience.”. That is similar to our

Saraburi land. If the Thai wife can wait, a letter will come around eventually. If no buyer is waiting to buy

her land now, or there is no threat to the wife’s right of ownership (because #4 is less strong against

encroachment than #3), then it might be better to wait since the committee may have already approved

and ordered the bureaucrats to issue upgraded titleship. The corruption money demanded may be real or

imaginary. If it is real, then it is for jumping the queue since the deeds of NS3 must have been printed in

bulk and waiting for signatures.

The more important part is how the Canadian couple can have their debts refunded with interest or gain

when eventually there is a sale. That is the time when one knows the real colour of the wife and whether

he has got the right spouse.

Why do I get involved? Because I saw the question highlighted in the Nation online and thought that I had

the experience that OP can benefit and felt painful for OP on some of the replies given. Will I benefit from

having more fee-paying clients? Not at all, because I have already retired from the practice and now right

in the midst of stock and property investments

(I was suspended by the moderator for 24 hours for having the contents of one writer, who sent his message privately to my inbox, copied and highlighted under this thread. It was subsequently deleted by the moderator. I regret this lapse. The moderator has advised me to block this inward mail in future should I desire to do so.)

Presumably the suspension was for publishing a private message on the open forum. Not only against forum rules but against common etiquette. also not professional

[Irene]

Is OP's transaction illegal? OP's question did not explicitly say that the Thai wife hold land for the Canadian couple. The closest was the Canadians "contributed some money to help them buy" the land. That can mean as a loan from the Canadian couple rather than the Canadian couple having the land ownership through the brother's Thai wife as a nominee holder. So what is all the excitement about OP's question? Just because one knows of the word "nominee" that was popularised by the high-profile case of Temasek, (a Singapore state investment company) on its nominee shareholdings by a Thai in a telecom company, one just uses that word unsparingly. There can be either a correct nominee or an unacceptable nominee. As the result of the case, nominee in Thailand is exclusively viewed as dubious. As to the case of nominee holding in land of a Thai wife, I and my colleagues are not aware of a single case officially challenged by the authority yet. The closest one was the guidance of the Director-General of the Land Department threatened Thai wife for buying land on behalf of her husband. Again, the word "nominee" was used. In the Thai legal circle, they all chuckle on the guidance since, under Thai basic laws, property is regarded as jointly owned by both husband and wife, so how can a wife be accused for holding land for her husband. But the announcement has its desired effect in having scared off a lot of foreigners and also causing many to stick to this DG's notion unwittingly, possibly after having only read the news in the Bangkok Post on this DG's announcement and his interview. Once some persons see a Thai wife holding land with her husband's or brother-in-law's money, there would be a scream of illegality. I would just say hold your horse and look at the gist of each situation first. For example, is it a real marriage?

Is OP's "collateral" or "ownership" in that Lanta land illegal? That depends on the

details of the arrangement of the "loan". On the face of OP's question, it is still legitimate on its sibling

relationship that the "loan" was granted to his brother and certainly not to the brother's Thai wife.

Returning to OP's immediate concern as to pay or not to pay 40K, after reading another writer's

experience (#14) which is similar to ours, it now dawned on me that the upgrading is done as a blanket

cover for each district and not discretionarily on each piece of land. Lannarebirth #14 described "In due

course (18 months later) the land department got around to upgrading the entire area at no expense to

landholders. I don't know how things work on the islands but that's our experience.". That is similar to our

Saraburi land. If the Thai wife can wait, a letter will come around eventually. If no buyer is waiting to buy

her land now, or there is no threat to the wife's right of ownership (because #4 is less strong against

encroachment than #3), then it might be better to wait since the committee may have already approved

and ordered the bureaucrats to issue upgraded titleship. The corruption money demanded may be real or

imaginary. If it is real, then it is for jumping the queue since the deeds of NS3 must have been printed in

bulk and waiting for signatures.

The more important part is how the Canadian couple can have their debts refunded with interest or gain

when eventually there is a sale. That is the time when one knows the real colour of the wife and whether

he has got the right spouse.

Why do I get involved? Because I saw the question highlighted in the Nation online and thought that I had

the experience that OP can benefit and felt painful for OP on some of the replies given. Will I benefit from

having more fee-paying clients? Not at all, because I have already retired from the practice and now right

in the midst of stock and property investments

(I was suspended by the moderator for 24 hours for having the contents of one writer, who sent his message privately to my inbox, copied and highlighted under this thread. It was subsequently deleted by the moderator. I regret this lapse. The moderator has advised me to block this inward mail in future should I desire to do so.)

Presumably the suspension was for publishing a private message on the open forum. Not only against forum rules but against common etiquette. also not professional

The observation is humbly accepted but excused myself for having anger against its contents and like to have others to view the writer's mentality.