Thai Government Hangs By A Thread

[Insight]

Reds are so quick to get those photos onto their Facebook site and label the people who died "martyers". What other group of people uses similar language and tactics?

Err...any other group of people fighting for their cause ???

The clue is in the word martyer.

[anotherpeter]

Abhisit had no choice but to react. Most leaders would have done so a long time ago. So far, the entire country are the losers now. Hard to tell about the future.

I disagree I believe Abhisit himself would have carried on attempting to control and defuse the situation..........was he pressured into action? by the reds? or by his own side?

In hindsight, it does look like it was planned like this all along, specifically the attempt to take out pro-Red TV and radio stations and internet sites. After that a bloody crack-down followed. The reasoning seems to have been that without those pesky news sources around, the lid could be kept on it.

In this day and age, that of course doesn't work.

They didn't black out the news sources. There were still plenty of news sources available, particularly international ones that can't be hidden, and generally report the news rather than make it.

They blacked out the lies and violence inciting speeches on one particular channel.

[rametindallas]

the reds intention all along was to promote a violent response but it would be on their terms

the fugitive Arisaman drew first blood at the EC commission, but he was not denounced by the red protesters or their leaders

they thought it was great fun and a victory for them

Arisaman did it again the very next day by entering parliament

he was mildly rebuked by the red shirt leaders but they did not feel inclined to turn him in or make him turn himself in, which would have been a real media coup for the reds

the red supporters thought it was a great victory for the cause and cheered him on

now the government has clamped down on them, its not going to plan and its no longer on their terms, they are displaying their most common characteristic of being lying, whinging, cowards who do not find it so funny when the intimidation they have thrust upon on others is turned around and aimed back at them.

a most typical reaction from bullies

its very simple now , under SOE, the Reds are breaking the law simply by being there and can be removed at any cost

showing tear gas cannisters, spent bullet casings, displaying injured protesters and publicly crying and whining on about how badly the poor down trodden protesters have been dealt with by Abhisit, the Police & Army does not cut any ice with me i am afraid

the reds knew what they were coming to Bangkok to do and they knew the risks involved

they have been coached in violence by their leaders 24 hours a day for weeks if not months

so it should not be a surprise to them that they have achieved their goal and finally got their way

they wanted a violent confrontation and now they have it

so reds, if they do not like whats happening to you then pack up and go home but please stop moaning about it like you were innocent lambs to the slaughter, if you fly with crows like Jutaporn and Arisaman, its likely you will get shot with them

or

get up off your collective knees, stand up and deal with whats happening to you, earn your 500 baht and get stuck in.

at least have the conviction to the Red cause to show the world what you really are

If the Reds wanted to promote a violent response they would not be returning weapons and live ammo...

Then why did they take them in the first place. ALL the 'Reds' are not accountable by you or anybody.

[473geo]

Abhisit had no choice but to react. Most leaders would have done so a long time ago. So far, the entire country are the losers now. Hard to tell about the future.

I disagree I believe Abhisit himself would have carried on attempting to control and defuse the situation..........was he pressured into action? by the reds? or by his own side?

In hindsight, it does look like it was planned like this all along, specifically the attempt to take out pro-Red TV and radio stations and internet sites. After that a bloody crack-down followed. The reasoning seems to have been that without those pesky news sources around, the lid could be kept on it.

In this day and age, that of course doesn't work.

Possibly WTK.....I believe there has been, from the very birth of this protest, a complete misunderstanding of the events spiral that could occur.

Remember the smart ar5e type comments on this very forum?.........'when they run out of lao kao and stinky fish sauce they will return back to the rice paddies' attitude?

First rule of engagement.......never underestimate your opponent.

[way2muchcoffee]

In hindsight, it does look like it was planned like this all along, specifically the attempt to take out pro-Red TV and radio stations and internet sites. After that a bloody crack-down followed. The reasoning seems to have been that without those pesky news sources around, the lid could be kept on it.

In this day and age, that of course doesn't work.

And you claim to be neutral?

Edited April 10, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[hanuman1]

Extraordinary scenes right now on the stage at Rajprasong with the relatives (older brothers) of a couple of the dead protesters taking the mic and giving their views. One poor guy goes to pieces and the other turns it into a rallying cry.

Now someone's reading out a list of names of missing people.

Edited April 10, 2010 by hanuman1

[Ijustwannateach]

Several posts have been deleted related to speculation on the political actions of the royal family- please be aware that these are serious violations of Thaivisa forum rules and will be dealt with severely.

As unwilling as I am to wade through all of the sabre-rattling and name-calling, I will be looking at the last few pages and issuing warnings especially to flamers. I would remind our membership that the rules are still in operation and that inflammatory posting is not allowed even if your feelings are running high.

[MellowYellow]

can we have more details on where these casualties took place? i understand we have limited reports with the Army in the street murdering journalists but can we get an idea what is going on in each area right now?

where is abhisit now? too embarrassed to put his face on tv?

Your comments are out of place "

Are the 100s of post celebrating violence and bloodlust out of place?

Truly, so many posters in this thread are proving themselves vile, sick humans.

Justifying the violence on either side is retarded. Calling for violence from either side shows what and who you are.

[Publicus]

Even the Army is being more responsible and progressive than Abhisit at the moment. The country is suffering because this one silver spoon millionaire Abhisit just won't admit that his ship is sinking. His ability to censor thought and information and stifle all expression of political will is far less than he thinks it is.

How about a megalomaniac billionaire that wont admit that his ship has already sunk?

Yes, and how about the meglomaniac billionaire and his Redshirt organizers and leaders suddenly on Saturday bringing in pickups full of Prathom aged children in redshirts and head bands, 10 year old kids packed sitting in the trucks and and swaying, kids who look like deer caught in headlights. This cynicism is noticed and its associations made.

[rametindallas]

There would have been no coup except for Thaksin - and the buck stops there.

I don't buy that I'm afraid. Thailand has had 18 coups in the last 78 years.

You can't possibly believe those geniuses 'the three amigos' thought this whole thing up on their own and it is financed without Dr. Taksin's money, can you? Don't you think it odd that about the time Dr. Taksin loses his money that this 'peaceful democracy movement' begins and random bombs and grenades are going off around the city. None of this benefits the Dems or PAD so you cannot say they are behind this. One would have to be dim, or intentionally blind to the obvious, to not know that this ALL can be laid squarely in the lap of Dr. Evi.. er.. Taksin. What a sad little man he must be having to stoop to such a low level.

[rametindallas]

There is one reason only why sadly it was necessary to show the dead: To keep them from being disappeared by the army. At least their death will not be forgotten.

I think Abhisit is done; Thais and foreigners murdered by the army. It's sick.

Do you always make up your mind without any facts? How could you possibly know the foreigner was kill by the army?

[Jerrytheyoung]

Yesterday morning, before any incident, I have underlined that Army should stay in its barracks because Army is a symbol of National Unity and should not be used against any fellow citizen- only reserved to external threats.

Young soldiers with several rounds of rubber and some (for warning) live ones, can confuse easily in the heat of a battle. Once everything begins to degenerate, everybody is warming up and the situatiion is escalading on both sides.

The decision to engage army (reluctant initially to be involved) is the key to this tragic saturday.

Today, the risk is not neglectible that the situation escalades one more step. I support the idea of negotiation without any condition in preamble because nobody want a Civil war, and this conflict has to end through discussions. In the same time, it is clear than Abhisit Government has to leave in a very short term. I hope a Government of National Unity will be implemented for drawing the roadmap to Elections and restore peace between Thais.

Sincerely

[vicco]

The International press is reporting 15 dead (4 army, 11 civilians) Both sides have called for a truce. PTV still on the air loud and clear.

Right now this forum seems to be the biggest source of angst, propaganda, lies, and pointless speculation. 15 people have died for no good reason and we bicker and snipe over petty issues like who said what and when. <deleted> does it matter now? Do we know who fired the first shot?

You guys would be arguing over which insurance company to use, when the building is burning down.

Can we show some respect and stop the blame game, name calling and disrespectful bullshit some many of you seem to think is funny or clever.

Feel free to write the history after the conflict is over....not while is it still happening.

[seanocasey]

you are but children in a fire. The military mind is indeed a menace. Old-fashioned futurity that sees only men fighting and dying in smoke and fire; hears nothing more civilized than a cannonade; scents nothing but the stink of battle-wounds and blood.

[BKjohn]

One should look at this from a factual point of view:

1) The government did not start any of this

2) The red shirts were not as peaceful as they made out to be and committed numerous acts of sabotage, used grenades, injured police and soldiers guarding buildings,

3) The government tried to reason with them and has always offered new elections in 9 month's which is an acceptable time frame

The government tried to convince the red shirts to leave peacefully but they were very clearly set for confrontation which Abhisit tried to avoid until the last moment

Thaksin is firing on his supporters i.e. the red shirts from his exile - this has been seen in a umber of African nations before - and his paid henchmen here are firing up the masses to make sure it does not end, especially now as they are facing arrest

Red shirt leaders are calling now to set ablaze the shopping malls and other buildings - showing their true face

This will be a disaster for Thailand by the time its over and there is no one to blame but the red shirts and especially their leaders and at the pinnacle of it all Mr. T who has put his own interests far above those of his country

[WinnieTheKhwai]

In hindsight, it does look like it was planned like this all along, specifically the attempt to take out pro-Red TV and radio stations and internet sites. After that a bloody crack-down followed. The reasoning seems to have been that without those pesky news sources around, the lid could be kept on it.

In this day and age, that of course doesn't work.

And you claim to be neutral?

Yes absolutely. Would you disagree that Abhsisit (or whoever is really in charge) set this thing in motion with martial law, censorship and then action? That's no different from what you read in internatinal news sources. You're calling those not neutral too? Look up from the pages of The Nation occasionally.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Abhisit had no choice but to react. Most leaders would have done so a long time ago. So far, the entire country are the losers now. Hard to tell about the future.

I disagree I believe Abhisit himself would have carried on attempting to control and defuse the situation..........was he pressured into action? by the reds? or by his own side?

In hindsight, it does look like it was planned like this all along, specifically the attempt to take out pro-Red TV and radio stations and internet sites. After that a bloody crack-down followed. The reasoning seems to have been that without those pesky news sources around, the lid could be kept on it.

In this day and age, that of course doesn't work.

Possibly WTK.....I believe there has been, from the very birth of this protest, a complete misunderstanding of the events spiral that could occur.

Remember the smart ar5e type comments on this very forum?.........'when they run out of lao kao and stinky fish sauce they will return back to the rice paddies' attitude?

Yes, and a lot worse. Really disgusting racial slurs. And people call themselves educated foriengers. I learned a lot about the kind of people on this forum recently.

[Abrak]

I am not really into taking sides in what is clearly a tragedy. IT seems to me that there is something that we can learn from both the red and yellow shirt demonstrations over the past couple of year. I feel that these relatively peaceful demonstrations eventually end pin acts of terrorism because these demonstrations are given too much freedom. Ultimately these demonstrators - be they yellow or red - end up believing they are an invincible force and take more and more liberties until the authorities are forced to act. The result is not pleasant. There simply has to be more constraints on public demonstrations even if their intentions are essentially peaceful.

Now where do we go from here. First of all history would suggest that the PM must take responsibility form the bloodshed that occurs (one can't help feeling the reds knew this.)

A coup cannot be the answer. the armed forces seem more incompetent than both sides. Both sides I believe have a high degree of faith in democracy. Frech elections will solve nothing because the losing side will not accept them. What is needed is a leader like Anand Panyacharun who can represent all sides and is respected by everyone.

I can't help but feel this is going to be a long drawn out fight. I don't really believe that Thaksin is that relevant in Thai politics anymore but he did engender a new political spirit and empowerment amongst the Thai working class that is not go away quickly.

[siampolee]

BKjohn.

One should look at this from a factual point of view:

1) The government did not start any of this

2) The red shirts were not as peaceful as they made out to be and committed numerous acts of sabotage, used grenades, injured police and soldiers guarding buildings,

3) The government tried to reason with them and has always offered new elections in 9 month's which is an acceptable time frame

The government tried to convince the red shirts to leave peacefully but they were very clearly set for confrontation which Abhisit tried to avoid until the last moment

Thaksin is firing on his supporters i.e. the red shirts from his exile - this has been seen in a umber of African nations before - and his paid henchmen here are firing up the masses to make sure it does not end, especially now as they are facing arrest

Red shirt leaders are calling now to set ablaze the shopping malls and other buildings - showing their true face

This will be a disaster for Thailand by the time its over and there is no one to blame but the red shirts and especially their leaders and at the pinnacle of it all Mr. T who has put his own interests far above those of his country

Sadly therein lies the answer, Thakin would not let go his puppets jumped when he said, the offers were on the table as we all saw in the televised talks.

Not enough for the Red Shirt Brigade leaders, we want our way now, our way or no way was the cry from Jutaporn, Veera and Weng with Thaksin pulling their strings in the background.

Law and order is was breaking down anarchy was roaming the streets, private property and liberty is was at risk from demonstrators who it seems were armed.

Life was being endangered from all side and goodness knows how many sides or or interested parties are actually involved in this debacle.

My sympathy for those who died and indeed their families, they knew the risks. Or did they know the risks and the dangers their leaders were willing to expose them to ?

Very noticeable that the Red Shirt Brigade main leaders Jutaporn Veera and Weng were not near the danger zones, nothing like leading from the back to safeguard your skin, there is a word for it in the English language COWARDICE .

Edited April 11, 2010 by siampolee

[4223rhodes]

How many of the Amart were to be seen firing on Thai citizens. No they ordered their upcountry poor soldiers to do their dirty work while the rested with Abhisit in air-conditioned comfort. Yesterday was the poor killing the poor, the powerless oppressing the powerless.

[way2muchcoffee]

In hindsight, it does look like it was planned like this all along, specifically the attempt to take out pro-Red TV and radio stations and internet sites. After that a bloody crack-down followed. The reasoning seems to have been that without those pesky news sources around, the lid could be kept on it.

In this day and age, that of course doesn't work.

And you claim to be neutral?

Yes absolutely. Would you disagree that Abhsisit (or whoever is really in charge) set this thing in motion with martial law, censorship and then action? That's no different from what you read in internatinal news sources. You're calling those not neutral too? Look up from the pages of The Nation occasionally.

Let's just say we disagree. I don't have the mood for debate or placing blame. All I'm saying is that your posts these last weeks have been far from neutral. It is ok if you don't wish to do a self-examination. We are human. Our hearts take sides, even while our brains resist.

[pimay11]

At Rajprasong, all is calm and it is unusual this morning in that no music is played and no one rises up to address the crowd. It is speculated that UDD leaders are still sleeping due to exhausting activities last night.

I wonder which five star hotel they are sleeping in?

[Chaimai]

It is time for the major world leaders to speak out in support of PM Abhisit and against terrorism, anarchy in Thailand, as well as the villainous puppet master, Thaksin.

Oh dear, someone still likes those old fashioned westerns when the cavalry comes over the hill at the 11th hour.

Verbiage. You have a point to make ?

Like the 'major world leaders' really give a shit about Thailand's perpetual struggle between whoever's brand of sycophantic feudal patronage is best? Really? The only thing the Thai's have done recently is 'color code' the principals in some vain attempt to make the game somehow more interesting.

Claro?

Clearer, thanks.

I agree that the Western world doesn't give a jot about Thailand's ongoing soap operas - I imagine that they have difficulty understanding how such a saga can run and run.

[buckeye]

Just a fast note 15 Vans of Police just left from Tak to go to BKK. ???

[BKjohn]

Those here who put out all this gibberish about the poor and Abhisit being a dictator seem to have no idea about the situation.

Lets see, you, who call the current government a dictatorship should take an educational holiday in North Korea, may be a short stopover in Iran and how about a weeks vacation in Zimbabwe? to learn what a dictatorship actually means. May be some reading (if you can) of history books about Haiti - Papa Doc and Baby Doc - Hitler and lets not forget Mr. Amin ....

Last time I looked there was still free speech in this country (with the exception of the royal family) - no demonstrators where rounded up in the Bangkok stadium and shot - there were no secret policemen braking into houses, arresting people for their political believes ( well except under Thaksin of course, the chap those rioters want back) Thais could travel freely within their country and abroad ......

They use the "poor" factor as a political reason for the riots like Thaksin tells them. When Abhisit came to power I said to some friends, "if he wants to stay in power without any hassle, he'd better pay off the Isanies village headmen and ampheurs with a view hundred million baht as Thaksin did to bring them on his side and with them the Isaani people" (have to add that this does of course not mean all Isaanies, there are those who do not agree with the riots)

Well he didn't because he believed in bringing this country into more civilized times. He believed in real democracy and not in the pseudo purchased democracy where whoever pays the most to the Isaanies wins the election. Now those feel neglected and the local poo yai had to cancel his order for his new Mercedes. Now they are rioting on the streets of Bangkok proclaiming being poor and that no one cares about them.

In Thailand everyone has a chance to make something for themselves - just look at the food vendors all over the country making a decent income and basically paying no taxes. Any country in the world has rich and "poor" citizens. They have schools in Isaan, there is a government health care system in place for a minimal payment. Yes, Thailand is not a well-fare country like the UK, but considering that most "poor" Thais, even those with their food stands, making 20-30,000.00 Baht or more a month don't pay any taxes, who should pay for that? And on that same note, shouldn't their be bloody riots on the streets in the USA?

Fact is, no one in Thailand is starving and simply because one wants more money is no viable reason to riot and brake the law of the land.

Thaksin is using his henchmen to incite violence, hoping to regain his money and power. The problem now is that the leaders of the riots are facing prison if they loose but huge financial rewards if they win. This unfortunately means that they will most likely continue or in the best scenario will negotiate a pardon. This seems like wishful thinking though.

To end this note, if this government had any inclination of being a dictatorship, those riots and the month long demonstrations in the heart of Bangkok would never have happened but would have been squashed at the outset.

Edited April 11, 2010 by BKjohn

[siampolee]

To end this note, if this government had any inclination of being a dictatorship, those riots and the month long demonstrations in the heart of bangkok would neverhave happened but would have been squashed at the outset.

Bullseye posting.

[BKjohn]

It doesn't really matter what I think about Thaksin, it matters what Thai people think. I can muster some respect for the differing viewpoints out there.

But there's just no way around the ugly facts, that the army has produced another black Songkran. Dead is dead, argue about Thaksin until the cows come home if you will.

Sorry --- but apparently you did not read ThaiVisa or read the news or watch television (particularly the Red channel) --- The REDS have produced another black songkran and the blood is totally on their hands. And yes what matters is what the Thais think ... and this will likely cost Abhisit his PM position in the coming weeks but that is because when anything goes wrong we expect our leaders to fall on their swords. The people in Thailand will still blame the reds and will remember the violent rhetoric spewed on the Red stages. They will remember it was Thaksin that was paying for this to happen.

Ahhh. Good to see the newspeak generator is up and running this morning.

With all the trails that lead to yesterdays violence.

Can you actually and honestly say ONLY one side holds any blame?

Blood is on a lot of hands.

Failure to see that is incredibly myopic.

Excuse me, but had the red shirts obayed the law instead of starting to throw lit gas tanks, use spears and guns against the soldiers , I think no blood would have been spilled. I simply can not see the soldiers firing rubber bullets at the crowd just for fun. I think the blame is rather easy to place square into the red shirts faces

Otherwise you may blame the police for shooting an armed bank robber who was firing at them

Edited April 11, 2010 by BKjohn

[pimay11]

It doesn't really matter what I think about Thaksin, it matters what Thai people think. I can muster some respect for the differing viewpoints out there.

But there's just no way around the ugly facts, that the army has produced another black Songkran. Dead is dead, argue about Thaksin until the cows come home if you will.

Sorry --- but apparently you did not read ThaiVisa or read the news or watch television (particularly the Red channel) --- The REDS have produced another black songkran and the blood is totally on their hands. And yes what matters is what the Thais think ... and this will likely cost Abhisit his PM position in the coming weeks but that is because when anything goes wrong we expect our leaders to fall on their swords. The people in Thailand will still blame the reds and will remember the violent rhetoric spewed on the Red stages. They will remember it was Thaksin that was paying for this to happen.

Ahhh. Good to see the newspeak generator is up and running this morning.

With all the trails that lead to yesterdays violence.

Can you actually and honestly say ONLY one side holds any blame?

Blood is on a lot of hands.

Failure to see that is incredibly myopic.

Excuse me, but had the red shirts obayed the law instead of starting to throw lit gas tanks, use spears and guns against the soldiers , I think no blood would have been spilled. I simply can not see the soldiers firing rubber bullets at the crowd just for fun. I think the blame is rather easy to place square into the red shirts faces

Otherwise you may blame the police for shooting an armed bank robber who was firing at them

Spot on BKjohn. Thaksin and his minions are now backed into a corner. A corner they created by spewing hatred and lies continously to the paid mob. Now the red leaders are facing an extended stay in the Bangkok Hilton and rightly so. They realize this and will fight to the finish. One thing I do not understand is why the police have not arrested these leaders. If they are silent the reds will go back home. end of story.

[bangkokrick]

This just about sums things up.

BreakingNews: Protesters in Thailand say they will not negotiate with government, a day after clashes kill 18 - AP

How many more lives will it take to satisfy your cause?

Cheers, Rick

[BKjohn]

Spot on BKjohn. Thaksin and his minions are now backed into a corner. A corner they created by spewing hatred and lies continously to the paid mob. Now the red leaders are facing an extended stay in the Bangkok Hilton and rightly so. They realize this and will fight to the finish. One thing I do not understand is why the police have not arrested these leaders. If they are silent the reds will go back home. end of story.

[/quote

There are probably a number of would be "Fidel's" waiting lower down the ranks looking to take over and reap the rewards when Papa T returns

In my humble opinion, this is a strategic move by the government. There will come a point when the reds will realize that they will not achieve their goal. There will however still be large numbers of reds in Bangkok. Their leaders now facing possible long term stay's at the Bangkok Hilton will try to negotiate a pardon for themselves and offer to withdraw their followers from Bangkok to their region and keep the peace. At which point this will be granted and peace will be restored. The logistics of forcefully repatriating such a mass of people are not an easy task otherwise.