What If The Red Shirts Win?

[britmaveric]

... She fired him the next day because he supported the Red shirts...

OW, I do not want to pick a fight here, but that action by your 'yellow-shirt' wife is a clear example of why many people (Thai and farang) are sympathetic to the Red shirt movement.

If I had a driver, I would not remove his employment (and probably his source of income to support his family etc), simply because of his political leanings.

Simon

Agreed that's horrible behaviour on the part of his wife. Do not treat someone any differently because their views maybe different than yours. You fire someone who is not doing the job correctly.

I disagree with Jing, but I still like him and would not want him to be banned from the forum.

[britmaveric]

I am shocked that anyone actually believes a red power government will mean that things will magically become "fair and equal" in Thailand.

It's going to have to be a coalition govt of some sort for anything to work Jing. If not we will be repeated the same mistakes as the Abhisit govt and we will be right back where we are today.

[uptou]

What i think gets to most rational thinking people is that if this was actually purely a fight for democracy,then what makes the red shirts think that the current PM could possibly be any worse than Thaksin? Why not give him some time?A man edjucated in england.Not a rich powerful business man.He hasnt been able to do anything constructive,because the opposition has done everything possible to undermine him & score points...to regain power & suppress democracy.

We are talking about politicians here.I think anybody who thinks that they generally get into politics for purely altruistic reasons needs to think again.In my eyes they are generally driven almost to the point of insanity,& just crave the power.

If the red shirts win,& get what they want Thailand is going to be a mess for a very long time,divided.

I also wonder whether these same red shirts have some warped respect for billionaire THAIS.Abit of thai nationalism thrown in.

The current government will be in fear of the poor,& should be thinking of looking after them abit to stay in power,so why do the red shirts go further,theyve made their point?

[britmaveric]

^Abhisit is from a rich family and has his own dosh. Certainly not in the same class as Khun T, but he is considered elite and rich.

[grandpops]

Turns on the box and says, I want to know if army kill all the red shirts yet.

Well at least I know my wife is not the only one to feel that way.

A country (if it wishes to appear to be a country with a constitution and laws) simply cannot let a very small portion of the population dictate who can be in power and when you must hold elections. (Yes, I know some will point out the PAD, BUT it was the court, not the protest that brought down the regimes).

I can see nothing that is so urgent or life threatening that an election must be held before the scheduled time for it.

My wife says bring in the tanks and bull dozers, shove all the stages, bikes, taxis and trucks into the klong. Have elections next year and then what happens som nah nah, but at least it is a constitutional election.

At least your wife is consistantly showing who wears the trousers at your house. Also showing us the rabid PAD train of thought.

Nice to see all opinioins on here, even stupid ones.

[generalgrant]

you think thaksin is offended by what farangs say on internet forums

im sure he wont do anything to the detriment of farangs.

anyone know who pumps more baht into issan. taksin or FARANGS

If you were here when he was first elected, you would have seen he did an awful lot to the detriment of farangs. Weekly changes to Visa regs at whim spring to mind.

Thaskin = Thai rak Thai....(Thai's love Thai's). This is his party....xenophobic.....could be

Undeniable this is how he came to power.

Yes

true

But do they not have some right to be upset?

How would it go over in any other nation if so many of the prettiest women were being married to foreigners.

The boys back home would be none too happy.

But I agree with your points.

Thai Love Thai pretty much says it all.

Imagine if we had a party in The UK called Brits love Brits.

it surely would not be an invitation to come and visit for foreigners would it.

[gregb]

First, it ins't clear what "win" means in this context? Win the current round of riots, or win a new election?

I am going to assume you mean win a new election. I think it is pretty clear what will happen. The reds will start doing exactly the same thing they did under Samak and Somchai. Nothing has changed. They will start cranking up the engine to pardon Thaksin.

That will bring yellow shirt protesters back out on the streets. The PAD has not gone away. At least as many people loathe Thaksin as support him. This will quite obvious very soon after a red victory. The new government will find itself embroiled in another bitter round of street protests. The yellow shirts, taking their queues on what is acceptable from the reds, will ratchet up the violence to the next level, and will seize some piece of truly important infrastructure. Maybe only the railroads, but quite possibly a seaport or maybe a municipal water system.

They will accuse the red government of illegally attempting to pardon Thaksin, and hold the country hostage until the government is dissolved. This government will refuse also, just as the present one is, and eventually a court decision will need to be rendered on some technicality to get the government out and diffuse the crisis.

This will be repeated ad nauseum with varying shirt colours until Thaksin finally dies or gives up. This will likely be a long, long time. The other possibility is that uncontrollable civil war does finally break out. We would hope that someone would intervene in this case, but even that may not be enough this time.

One thing that will not be tolerated is deaths. Any government will be pushed out by the power brokers once the bullets start flying. This knowledge will cause future protests to skip the peaceful part and go straight for the bloody routes which necessitate taking over progressively more critical infrastructure pieces that simply can not be ignored.

A new paradigm has been put in motion which is extremely ugly. The country is currently ungovernable no matter who wins. The only solution to restore some semblance of normalcy is to eliminate Thaksin from the equation.

Others will say that someone will take his place if he is killed, but I seriously doubt this. Thaksin is a demagogue and has a very unique personality. Anyone who replaces him will likely be a normal person that can be negotiated with. History simply does not produce many people as warped as Thaksin. The likelihood there will be another one in Thailand at this point in history is quite small.

A unity government may be tried at some point, but I do not believe Thaksin will allow that. He is in this to win. A unity government could not push through his pardon, and it will be quickly abandoned for some reason that nobody will comprehend.

If there was anyone other than Thaksin commanding the forces on the other side I would hold out hope for a peaceful resolution to this conflict. With him still alive, I only see years of violent street protests.

If this government didn't work, there is no hope. Nothing will change no matter who wins.

[fleming]

Well... to make it short: T.R.T.

Thaksin Rak Thaksin!

The rest is pure

Literature

[hansnoi]

It seems impossible for many on this forum to show selfrestraint by commenting on the dramatic events in our hostcountry. It can be even hilarious to follow the keyboard battles between the likes of levelheaded fellow travelers and jingytingy maofobists. They talk to us like college professors, sometimes they make themselves sound even more authoritative by underlining how many years already they enjoy life in the Kingdom. To be honest I don't believe one of them when taking sides in this conflict. I just read everything and watch as much newsprograms as possible to inform myself about what is happening. And after talking with my neighbours, friends and yes, also my wife, I conclude that there is not one single truth to detect, no black sheeps to blame and no white ones to admire. So, from my point of view I am mostly amused when following this forum. What I can't stand however are the foreigners who use TV to 'enlighten' us with their frustrations about Thailand. The essence of (in my opinion) too many posts is that this whole country is rotten to the bone and all of its its citizens corrupt as hel_l. If you think like that, why are you not going back to all these highly civilized very democratic countries of origin? And why, dear moderators, don't you block posts like that? Thanks, also on behalf of my wife. And yes, she is a Thai citizen

[old wanderer]

3. Often times I have seen her loan money to people in villages around her family home. When we returned to visit with her family she had washed the yellow shirts we had worn at the rally a few nights before and hung then to dry. 2 people that both owed her money stopped by, I think to ask for more time, but when they saw the yellow shirts, they starting expressing some very negative words about the PAD. Normally she is a generous person and would have told them OK 2 more years, you work your land, give my 25% and save to pay me back. Well this time she told them "NO....Go ask Thakin to help you", took the land and kicked them off. I tried to talk to her a bit about this, but I have learned I do not get into fights over things that do not directly effect me. He mind was made up.."If these 2 buffalo brains do not love my King, then they should not have land in his Kingdom." Normally she is generous. A few years ago everybody in the village was in trouble about money, so she bought all the silk in the village to help them out. (We still have boxes of material sitting around).

So your wife charges 25% yearly interest to poor peasants (that's just 1800 basis points above average lending rate after all ) and then sends the proceeds to the PAD "to help her King" who btw has an extimated wealth of 36 billion $.

What can I say ... I'm speechless

Not quite... She loaned the money against the land. In most cases even if the loan is not repaid, and she takes title to the land, she allows the people to continue farming the land and takes 25% of the crop. A far cry from 25% intrest.

[old wanderer]

I would like to bring the focus of this topic back to the center point:

What is so urgent that requires the loss of life, and injury to hundress of people,the damaging of hundreds of companies, that could not wait until the normal election cycle???

I can see no urgency, but am open for somebody to expain it to me.

Best answer is Thaskin want his money now, and the country be damned

Edited April 12, 2010 by old wanderer

[elkangorito]

I fully agree with 'old wanderer'.

If the local yokels are truly serious about democracy, they will wait until the next election.

As for now, they have done nothing but harm the country & waste what impetus they would have had if they had chosen to use their 'numbers' at the next election.

What is needed are television commercials that educate the masses about the 'democratic system'. The strange thing is that when I mention 'democracy' at work, I get comments like, "This is Thailand...it is different here" & "How is democracy in other countries, like democracy in Thailand?"

I think these comments are a HUGE clue to the mindset here.

A late edit:

Whether or not the 'red shirts' win is besides the point. The main point (I feel) is about Thailands ability to 'change'. No doubt that current events will incite change but certain things could be done to facilitate a smoother change to a democratic country.

Edited April 12, 2010 by elkangorito

[Wesley]

I would like to bring the focus of this topic back to the center point:

What is so urgent that requires the loss of life, and injury to hundress of people,the damaging of hundreds of companies, that could not wait until the normal election cycle???

I can see no urgency, but am open for somebody to expain it to me.

Thaksin was booted out by army/others for a number of reasons. One of the main reasons was to do with control of army itself. Army in Thailand has never been like in the west, by which I mean controlled by elected government. Army has been independent and a law unto itself. It forged strong links with the traditional institutions under the Sathit era [you need to use google or wiki for this bit], but essentially army is the most powerful force in thailand. Thaksin wanted to make army loyal to him when he was PM [to him, not to an elected government] and tried to install his cousin as leader of army.

Prem gave his famous speech about army as horse which is owned by a stable-owner: Jockeys [governments] come and go but horse is property of stableowner.

Thaksin got booted.

Upcoming in next few months are changeover of Army head which the army wants to do its own way [Prayuth to succeed Anupong].

Further in next few months government will need to approve new army budget. Deciding about budget a big power that current army leadership wishes to control.

Current government is owned by the army and suits them fine. Red govt might not play ball. There are factions in the army who wish Thaksin to be the stableowner.

So in short it's a fight between two factions of army and their related supporters/clients/patrons. There is also an inevitable event in the future that each faction wants to be in charge for as they will be well placed to be powerful in the shake-up afterwards. This sad event will be biggest shock/change in thailand in decades.

In short: Thaksin/red leaders want to be in charge for the three upcoming events mentioned above (especially the third). Other faction [Amart or whatever you choose] want to preserve status quo.

Reds [grassroots] are easily mobilised as they love Thaksin for being first PM not to totally ignore them. He says you must fight for democracy now they say OK. There are a lot of legitimate grievances so its easy to stir them up. Yellow side desperate to prevent a pro-Thaksin party getting into power in the near future.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Wesley

[tmwke]

Yes its easy when you have a successful life to sit back and talk about how easy it is for everybody to be successful regardless that the ultimate powers in this (kindom) are and have done little to help the majority of the uneducated masses for many years. Your wife sounds like Margret Thatcher to me ! The ones with the power dont even give them the crums let alone any cake,at least Thaskin while feathering his own large nest gave them something,and bettered there lives a little. What have the elite done ? (F>>> A>>) and that includes THE elite. Ask the Thais who live abroad, they dont want to go back. The reason its so hard for them to get a Visa to a Successful country ,is most would leave to better themselves while all the Elite are in power in Thailand and holding the country back for there own SELF interest. The working class Thais are not as stupid as people think,and they are entitled to an opinion.

[elkangorito]

Oh dear dog!

If the 'reds' achieve 'power', the country is ruined. By allowing such a minority to control the status quo here means that Thailand is ungovernable. It's this simple.

I'm bored already!

[Rinrada]

When the Reds win will only be the start of an attempt at Democracy..........real opposition is still in the wings..

[losworld]

Getting to the question you asked...What will happen if the Reds win...my opinion is probably not much.

I agree there is a serious economic/political devide between classes in Thailand, which mostly pits the poorer farmer/agrarian class in Issan against the more urban class in Bangkok. If I really believed that the Reds winning would make changes in that situation, I would probably be pro Reds. But I don't believe that, I believe that whatever happens it will be only exchanging one wealthy group in power for another wealthy group that wants that power. So I am forced to say when asked what will change is...not very much.

I've had a personal experience in my Thai family on how poor Thais are controlled. Some years ago when my Thai G/F's daughter took her school exams (she had been quite a good student in school) my Thai G/F was visted by one of the teachers from the daughters school. She made it clear to my Thai G/F that if she could come up with XXXXXXX Baht (the number of Xs doesn't indicate the numer of figures, so don't ask) then her daughter could "do well" in the exams. That would mean the possibility of university for the daughter. My G/F's Thai family isn't rich, and she couldn't meet the figure suggested. Therefore, no university for the daughter. Now that was some years ago, and I've been told by Thais that "that kind of thing" doesn't happen anymore. I don't believe it.

All I see in the struggle between the government and the Reds so far is a struggle between two groups for dominance over the economic/political/and social class in Thailand. I know many of the rank and file Reds truely believe they are working for Democracy and to help their fellow poor and farmers. I'm afraid if they do win, they will be sorely disapointed.

But I hope I'm wrong...and some real change will come out of this political struggle for the average Thai. If I am wrong, and some real change does come, I'll be happy.

I just don't think I will be wrong. Yes, change will come sometime to Thailand. The middle class Pandora's box has been opened some years ago, and you can't put all the demons back into the box.

As for the love of Democracy, that some people seem to be so enthusiastic for on this forum, you need only to look at the U.S. for a lesson on how Democracy can be manipulated. Elections in the U.S. now are such a long and expensive process that no politician can have a hope of winning unless they have a source of money. For that reason now in the U.S. the only viable candidates are those who are supported by a party organization. And both parties, Republican and Democratic, are controlled by those who have access to and can disburse large sums of money.

Most Americans don't realise that it is totally legal to write in a name on a Federal ballot, whether that person has been nominated by any party or not...just as long as that person is a U.S. citizen who is not a convict or in prison. Most Americans seem to think they have to vote for one of he two main parties. The political system wants all Americans to believe that, because the two parties can then control the candidates selected.

Democracy, in Thailand, would be he same thing...only more blantent.

Very good analysis. The bottom line is control and if the masses can be controlled through blatant vote buying than this will be the route. If not a more sophisticated system is put in place similar to the two part closed system of the United States. The same elite pull the strings but they just do it in different ways. In America leaders do not get elected as much as they get defeated so you see silly infighting and creative differences around election time to make the Dems stand out from the Repubs and vice versa. After the elections you can see buddy buddy and they've suddenly put all animosity aside to work for the better of the country (what a bunch of b.s.). Anyone notice how close the Clintons and Bush family have become and weren't they supposed to be bitter enemies at one point? Didn't anyone notice Obama sounded like the polar opposite of Bush during the election? But now Obama has expanded America's roll in Afghanistan, Iran, health care reform is a watered down joke, nothing has changed on Wall Street, the Fed has more power, etc. So what has really changed?

So when Obama is eventually thrown out or gets his second term there will be a need for a new look unless of course he has done so terribly that people think a return to Conservative policies would be the answer and maybe the Repubs can be packaged accordingly. If not perhaps a Latino President or a female President? All options will be called on before there is nothing "new and improved" to satisfy the voters. Then it will be time to either create a crisis or some sort of Draconian measures to control the population.

Its interesting to contrast what is going on in Thailand with Democracy in the West. What happened in Thailand would never have happened in the West. This demonstration would have been put down in its infancy and by force if necessary. Democracy in the West is really an illusion. It sounds really good until it is called to deliver. And if it is not in the interests of the ruling elite than it won't be delivered. Its like an insurance policy that sounds really good until you try to collect on your claim.

[Wesley]

Continuing the [off-topic] discussion of democracy in the west. Uk has an election now with virtually no policy difference between the the main parties whatsoever. Nobody cares. It could be the lowest turnout ever.

Reminds me of the old Bill Hicks routine:

I'll show you politics in America. Here it is, right here. "I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs." "I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking." "Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!"

"Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!" "Shut up! Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control. Here's Love Connection. Watch this and get fat and stupid. By the way, keep drinking beer, you fuc_king morons."

[Huey]

I like how the OP tries to compare Zimbabwe to Thailand.

No, Zimbabwe was run by Euro thief outsiders, who had no business in Zimbabwe other than to oppress and steal from the Native African people. When the people finally did rise up on their own, with a leader from within their ranks. Angry white run nations threw tons of trade sanctions on them, which is the real reason why their economy dropped.

In Thailand it's all about the Thais. Their is no colonial structure here holding the Thai people down.

[JRinger]

We live upcountry in a small village. My wife is one of the VERY few yellow shirts. She pretty much lost interest in politics when she realized that the vast majority of politicians are corrupt to the core and value money much more than doing their jobs and helping the people. She rarely talks about politics but is now becoming active again and calls the red shirts stupid buffalo. She simply doesn't understand why the red shirts want to fight and cause problems. She is of the opinion that even if they win, they will gain nothing. They simply exchange one group of corrupt politicians for another.

Is she right in thinking there is no answer?

YES !!

[old wanderer]

I like how the OP tries to compare Zimbabwe to Thailand.

No, Zimbabwe was run by Euro thief outsiders, who had no business in Zimbabwe other than to oppress and steal from the Native African people. When the people finally did rise up on their own, with a leader from within their ranks. Angry white run nations threw tons of trade sanctions on them, which is the real reason why their economy dropped.

In Thailand it's all about the Thais. Their is no colonial structure here holding the Thai people down.

Well Huey,

That is a pretty Pollyanna attitude of yours. I have visited, hunted, and had friends living in Rhodesia, and considered moving there myself, so my observation are just not from some book or obscure article I read, but from real life experiences.

1. The Rhodesian citizens that were born there for numerous generations were were hardly "Euro thief outsiders". The vast majority of what is now Zimbabwe population migrated to this area for the jobs and higher standard of living it afforded them.

2. The sanctions only came when the current government started to seize their property and expelled them from their country..Most held no other passport except for Rhodesian/Zimbabwe. In sort Africans do what they do so well and conducted an "ethnic cleansing", thus bringing sanctions on themselves for conduct that is universally repudiated.

3. Even without the sanctions, those that took possession of vast productive farms, were unable to even feed their family's from what before was feeding the whole country and exporting food to other countries, thus bring prosperity, jobs, and a much higher standard of living nation wide than what you find there today.

Thaskin and his party Thai rak Thai (Thai's love Thai's) was moving in this direction when he was ousted....so I stand by my link between the 2 societies.

If you have any real life experiences to bring to the table to talk about please do. We have all heard the academic crap that is passed around as facts.

[robblok]

I like how the OP tries to compare Zimbabwe to Thailand.

No, Zimbabwe was run by Euro thief outsiders, who had no business in Zimbabwe other than to oppress and steal from the Native African people. When the people finally did rise up on their own, with a leader from within their ranks. Angry white run nations threw tons of trade sanctions on them, which is the real reason why their economy dropped.

In Thailand it's all about the Thais. Their is no colonial structure here holding the Thai people down.

Well Huey,

That is a pretty Pollyanna attitude of yours. I have visited, hunted, and had friends living in Rhodesia, and considered moving there myself, so my observation are just not from some book or obscure article I read, but from real life experiences.

1. The Rhodesian citizens that were born there for numerous generations were were hardly "Euro thief outsiders". The vast majority of what is now Zimbabwe population migrated to this area for the jobs and higher standard of living it afforded them.

2. The sanctions only came when the current government started to seize their property and expelled them from their country..Most held no other passport except for Rhodesian/Zimbabwe. In sort Africans do what they do so well and conducted an "ethnic cleansing", thus bringing sanctions on themselves for conduct that is universally repudiated.

3. Even without the sanctions, those that took possession of vast productive farms, were unable to even feed their family's from what before was feeding the whole country and exporting food to other countries, thus bring prosperity, jobs, and a much higher standard of living nation wide than what you find there today.

Thaskin and his party Thai rak Thai (Thai's love Thai's) was moving in this direction when he was ousted....so I stand by my link between the 2 societies.

If you have any real life experiences to bring to the table to talk about please do. We have all heard the academic crap that is passed around as facts.

Well said.. blacks and Thais have a lot in common always blame foreigners whites for their problems. Yes i generalize but that poster asked for it.

[Murgatroyd]

What will happen if the Reds win [The Next Election] ?

Unless they stop vote buying, or get the electoral comission to approve their vote buying, the election will be declared void, and there will be more politicians benned for 5 years. Then there'll be another election, and so on with reds and Yellows taking their turns at the money trough.

That's the crux of the problem. The way that elections seem to work here is that the vast majority of votes, (Those of the poor and ill informed), are for sale. Once this practise was made illegal Thai politics became LaLa land. The same vicious circle of Election, investigation and condemnation of vote buying will continue ad infinitum.

That's until one side realises that it's time at the trough will be so short and limited that it pursues an assassination campaign against the legislators who are in any position to defeat them in the courts, and pulls the army onto it's side. Then Thailand will have a dictatorship. It might be a capitalistic dictatorship, or it might be a Maoist dictatorship...

Or it might be Year Zero all over again.

[Huey]

I like how the OP tries to compare Zimbabwe to Thailand.

No, Zimbabwe was run by Euro thief outsiders, who had no business in Zimbabwe other than to oppress and steal from the Native African people. When the people finally did rise up on their own, with a leader from within their ranks. Angry white run nations threw tons of trade sanctions on them, which is the real reason why their economy dropped.

In Thailand it's all about the Thais. Their is no colonial structure here holding the Thai people down.

Well Huey,

That is a pretty Pollyanna attitude of yours. I have visited, hunted, and had friends living in Rhodesia, and considered moving there myself, so my observation are just not from some book or obscure article I read, but from real life experiences.

1. The Rhodesian citizens that were born there for numerous generations were were hardly "Euro thief outsiders". The vast majority of what is now Zimbabwe population migrated to this area for the jobs and higher standard of living it afforded them.

2. The sanctions only came when the current government started to seize their property and expelled them from their country..Most held no other passport except for Rhodesian/Zimbabwe. In sort Africans do what they do so well and conducted an "ethnic cleansing", thus bringing sanctions on themselves for conduct that is universally repudiated.

3. Even without the sanctions, those that took possession of vast productive farms, were unable to even feed their family's from what before was feeding the whole country and exporting food to other countries, thus bring prosperity, jobs, and a much higher standard of living nation wide than what you find there today.

Thaskin and his party Thai rak Thai (Thai's love Thai's) was moving in this direction when he was ousted....so I stand by my link between the 2 societies.

If you have any real life experiences to bring to the table to talk about please do. We have all heard the academic crap that is passed around as facts.

Well said.. blacks and Thais have a lot in common always blame foreigners whites for their problems. Yes i generalize but that poster asked for it.

Please, blaming the "white man" for our problems is like blaming a Kleptomaniac for stealing. Yes a Klepto steals but crying about it isn't going to stop him you just have to find a way to tighten your defenses.

Secondly I stand by what I said about Euro Thief outsiders, considering 2% of the population (whites) owned 70% of the airable land. And on top of that they made it illeagle to publicly speak the truth about Great Zimbabwe's national heritage. (Large castles and complex international Trade some 800-500 years ago).

Paul Sinclair, A museum curator during the occupation, recounts

"I was the archaeologist stationed at Great Zimbabwe. I was told by the then-director of the Museums and Monuments organization to be extremely careful about talking to the press about the origins of the [Great] Zimbabwe state. I was told that the museum service was in a difficult situation, that the government was pressurizing them to withhold the correct information. Censorship of guidebooks, museum displays, school textbooks, radio programes, newspapers and films was a daily occurrence. Once a member of the Museum Board of Trustees threatened me with losing my job if I said publicly that blacks had built Zimbabwe. He said it was okay to say the yellow people had built it, but I wasn't allowed to mention radio carbon dates... It was the first time since Germany in the thirties that archaeology has been so directly censored."

It wasn't enough for the scum bags to steal the African's land but for a time they stole something even more valuable, their heritage.

This is why I say there is no parallel between Zimbabwe and Thailand.

Thai's know very well their heritage, and foreign land ownership is minimal. This is a struggle against themselves, not against a occupying force of foreign thieves.

[old wanderer]

I like how the OP tries to compare Zimbabwe to Thailand.

No, Zimbabwe was run by Euro thief outsiders, who had no business in Zimbabwe other than to oppress and steal from the Native African people. When the people finally did rise up on their own, with a leader from within their ranks. Angry white run nations threw tons of trade sanctions on them, which is the real reason why their economy dropped.

In Thailand it's all about the Thais. Their is no colonial structure here holding the Thai people down.

Well Huey,

That is a pretty Pollyanna attitude of yours. I have visited, hunted, and had friends living in Rhodesia, and considered moving there myself, so my observation are just not from some book or obscure article I read, but from real life experiences.

1. The Rhodesian citizens that were born there for numerous generations were were hardly "Euro thief outsiders". The vast majority of what is now Zimbabwe population migrated to this area for the jobs and higher standard of living it afforded them.

2. The sanctions only came when the current government started to seize their property and expelled them from their country..Most held no other passport except for Rhodesian/Zimbabwe. In sort Africans do what they do so well and conducted an "ethnic cleansing", thus bringing sanctions on themselves for conduct that is universally repudiated.

3. Even without the sanctions, those that took possession of vast productive farms, were unable to even feed their family's from what before was feeding the whole country and exporting food to other countries, thus bring prosperity, jobs, and a much higher standard of living nation wide than what you find there today.

Thaskin and his party Thai rak Thai (Thai's love Thai's) was moving in this direction when he was ousted....so I stand by my link between the 2 societies.

If you have any real life experiences to bring to the table to talk about please do. We have all heard the academic crap that is passed around as facts.

Well said.. blacks and Thais have a lot in common always blame foreigners whites for their problems. Yes i generalize but that poster asked for it.

Please, blaming the "white man" for our problems is like blaming a Kleptomaniac for stealing. Yes a Klepto steals but crying about it isn't going to stop him you just have to find a way to tighten your defenses.

Secondly I stand by what I said about Euro Thief outsiders, considering 2% of the population (whites) owned 70% of the airable land. And on top of that they made it illeagle to publicly speak the truth about Great Zimbabwe's national heritage. (Large castles and complex international Trade some 800-500 years ago).

Paul Sinclair, A museum curator during the occupation, recounts

"I was the archaeologist stationed at Great Zimbabwe. I was told by the then-director of the Museums and Monuments organization to be extremely careful about talking to the press about the origins of the [Great] Zimbabwe state. I was told that the museum service was in a difficult situation, that the government was pressurizing them to withhold the correct information. Censorship of guidebooks, museum displays, school textbooks, radio programes, newspapers and films was a daily occurrence. Once a member of the Museum Board of Trustees threatened me with losing my job if I said publicly that blacks had built Zimbabwe. He said it was okay to say the yellow people had built it, but I wasn't allowed to mention radio carbon dates... It was the first time since Germany in the thirties that archaeology has been so directly censored."

It wasn't enough for the scum bags to steal the African's land but for a time they stole something even more valuable, their heritage.

This is why I say there is no parallel between Zimbabwe and Thailand.

Thai's know very well their heritage, and foreign land ownership is minimal. This is a struggle against themselves, not against a occupying force of foreign thieves.

Great Zimbabwe is a ruined city that was once the capital of the Kingdom of Zimbabwe, which existed from 1270 to 1550 CE during the country’s Late Iron Age. The mediaeval monument, which first began to be constructed in the 11th century and which continued to be built till the 14th century, spanned an area of 722 hectares (1,784 acres) and at its peak could have housed up to 18,000 people. Great Zimbabwe acted as a royal palace for the Zimbabwean monarch and would have been used as the seat of their political power. One of its most prominent features were its walls, some of which were over five metres high and which were constructed without mortar.

Eventually, the city was largely abandoned, and fell into ruin, first being encountered by Europeans in the early 16th century

It was not the Europeans that casused the downfall of Zimbawe, but they themselves even as it is today. That entire emire was nothing by the time European settlers moved to the area in the 1800's.

Your agrument lacks the facts you purpose that it was the Europeans that caused the downfall of Zimbabwe.

[SpoliaOpima]

GIVE THE PEOPLE WHAT THEY WANT !!! Don't you get it ?

Thats what this is about . Its about the majority ,, not misguided opinions of a select few who like things the way they are and say Thailand is not ready for true democracy.

The Reds do not represent a majority of Thais. Best estimates place them at 1 in 3. Ditto for the yellows, leaving a third unallied. So there are 50,000 reds in Bangkok. Are you saying the other 65 million Thais have no say in the future of governance?

How patently absurd.

[SpoliaOpima]

If the Reds win I guess there will be elections.

Is that so bad?

If the Reds lose there will be elections. Is that so bad?

[siamamerican]

It seems us Farangs are prone to drama. The likely consequences of recent violence is that there will have no lasting impact on Thailand's long term ascension to developed nation status in the near future. Some posters fail to see Thailand's success and some even misrepresent the facts.

One of many examples on this thread:

“The longer crap like this goes on, the further Thailand falls behind Vietnam, Indonesia, and Malaysia”.

Thailand is well ahead of Vietnam and Indonesia. Why can't some not grasp that Thailand has its issues but has been progressing economically and socially the last 10 years, 20 yrs,...

This reminds me of investment forums where there are a few members that advise selling all non-cash investments because the market possibly might plummet. They will give examples of recent 50% drops and larger drops in the past to make their case. In this threads case we have posters creating fear using worst case scenarios. Honestly folks, what are the odds the government is going to be overthrown and anarchy is going to prevail. Followed by all our foreign investments being liquidated by the government. Lastly we would be kicked out of the country.

[Huey]

Old Wanderer; I'm not going to quote all the conversation in this response. I just want to clarify. that NO I am not saying it was European's that caused the fall of Great Zimbabwe, if I had to guess it could have been anything, a new trade port, disease, overrun by barbarian tribes, what ever. What I am saying is that in a effort to oppress the indigenous population the Europeans in Zimbabwe tried for a long time to steal the knowledge of the local's heritage by making it illegal to speak the truth about the origins of the city and the culture that built it.

You steal a man's history it's worse than stealing his land in a way.

[citizen33]

I'd say that what will happen is a period of further incremental change. It will become clear that the rural vote represents an important power block with interests of its own. And, as somebody else said, a sad but inevitable event in the near future will further transform the situation, perhaps along the lines alluded to in the Foreign Minister's recent speech in America. The influences of modernisation and globalisation, forces that the yellows have tried to resist, will be felt more and more. The idea of the sufficiency economy will be challenged more openly at the political level. Hopefully the rising political consciousness of lower class voters will eventually translate into something like a Social Democrat party, but that is quite a long way ahead. Will Thaksin be there to steer events behind the scenes or even return as leader? I doubt it and very much hope not, but this is Thailand and many things are possible.

Incidentally, I am still struggling with Jingthing's thesis that left-leaning westerners tend to be yellow because they oppose Thaksin's red meat capitalism, and - simultaneously - that a red victory is likely to lead to a Maoist (i.e. left wing) takeover. That is hard to get one's head around, but I do tend to agree with his views on US health care reform. I suppose the morale of the story is that people on both the yellow and red side came to their present views at different times and for different reasons, and the threads of logic are very complicated.