Anger And Agony Remain As Red-Shirts Abandon Phan Fa

[Arkady]

I see another Thailand English language media is now headlining "Army admit firing live rounds at protestors".

So first the Abhisit/Suthep circus says no soldiers had live ammo.

Then they change that story and say they had some but only fired in the air.

Then they change that story and say had some, fired in the air and only if needed, but not directly at protestors.

Now finally they admit they had live ammo, they fired directly at protestors.

This immoral and parliamentary coup made government is a national disgrace, in fact, its now a worldwide disgrace for Thailand to have them in power and to lie so much.

They got caught out as too many people have camera's video and mobile phone camera's - its 2010 and not 1992.

Why is Anupong not demanding Abhisit resign ? Why has Abhisit not resigned ? Why has Suthep not resigned ? Why has Anupong not resigned ?

Read back to all that was said when Somchai ordered the police to crackdown on PAD Yellows who were treasonous and blocked parliament from opening. Yet more "double standards".

The army said from the beginning that NCOs and officers had live ammo for the purposes of firing over the protestors heads and self defence. The troops suddenly came under brutal fire from grenade launchers and assault rifles and needed to get their wounded to safety. So those with live ammo returned fire to cover their men. I would certainly have done the same without hesitation and so would you. If this had been a brutal crackdown, the army would have cleared the area very fast with their M16s on full auto and would have taken far fewer casualties themselves. With the red shirt cannon fodder fleeing and falling like nine pins, there would have been no cover for their gunmen to hide behind and the army would have quickly killed them, if they even dared show their faces in such circumstances. More likely the red gunmen would have fled without firing at all.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Arkady

[Jingthing]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.

Spoken by who? Abhisit? The reds don't listen to anything but their own leaders including Thaksin and their incendiary propaganda media. The red leaders act like they have won. Maybe they have mostly. But if they are ever to negotiate, they are going to have to be taken down a peg or two. I guess total surrender is an option. Rule of the mob, part 46.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Jingthing

[connel707]

I see another Thailand English language media is now headlining "Army admit firing live rounds at protestors".

So first the Abhisit/Suthep circus says no soldiers had live ammo.

Then they change that story and say they had some but only fired in the air.

Then they change that story and say had some, fired in the air and only if needed, but not directly at protestors.

Now finally they admit they had live ammo, they fired directly at protestors.

This immoral and parliamentary coup made government is a national disgrace, in fact, its now a worldwide disgrace for Thailand to have them in power and to lie so much.

They got caught out as too many people have camera's video and mobile phone camera's - its 2010 and not 1992.

Why is Anupong not demanding Abhisit resign ? Why has Abhisit not resigned ? Why has Suthep not resigned ? Why has Anupong not resigned ?

Read back to all that was said when Somchai ordered the police to crackdown on PAD Yellows who were treasonous and blocked parliament from opening. Yet more "double standards".

Yes...open your mouth again and let us all know what a stupid and insane message you bring...why don`t you just keep quiet.. did you finish school..?

[Slip]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.

That's very true. The grass roots reds need to throw off their manipulators. Including Friend Thaksin. Then the government of the day should sit and listen to the problems of Thailand's poor, and put in place some policies to improve equality. Hang on, isn't that what Mark has been quietly doing all this time?

[danc]

I think cordoning is a good idea. It is now an illegal protest. Have the food and water available at the border on leaving, where the illegal protesters can be fed, watered, fined/arrested, and/or sent home. And not allowed back in until the area is cleared. WHY NOT? Thailand is about to enter a civil war due to these insurgents who have been offered peace talks numerous talks now, and refuse. Otherwise, anarchy and inevitable war.

If some of them CHOOSE to deny themselves food and water to themselves voluntarily, that is their free will choice but nobody would be forcing them to do that as the food and water would be available for free a few minutes away. Why is this not humane? Nobody forced them to illegally occupy this key commercial site, did they?

Of all the things such actions might accomplish, averting a civil war or more civil disturbance ain't among them.

The legitimate aspirations that many of the red shirts have (I don't include here Jatuporn, Nattawut, Arisman et. al.) must be addressed and seen to be understood. As this situation arises out of a perceived crisis of legitimacy (going back 5 years) there is no way that force can solve it for the simple reason that application of force will be seen to have no legitimacy. This does not mean that threats, intimidation and outright violence on the part of the reds should be tolerated or go unpunished.

A perfectly reasonable observation, showing an admirable neutrality. Unfortunately for you, it will get lost in the mud slinging that bestrides this forum! Actually. it is already lost in the mud slinging as can be seen from the posts that followed it

[Jingthing]

I wasn't mud slinging. I was truth telling. There is no evidence the red followers will listen to one word out of Abhisit's mouth. Now worse than ever. Many are trying to murder him. Facing reality is not mud slinging.

[danc]

I wasn't mud slinging. I was truth telling. There is no evidence the red followers will listen to one word out of Abhisit's mouth. Now worse than ever. Many are trying to murder him. Facing reality is not mud slinging.

OK, I back down!

[Neurath]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.

That's very true. The grass roots reds need to throw off their manipulators. Including Friend Thaksin. Then the government of the day should sit and listen to the problems of Thailand's poor, and put in place some policies to improve equality. Hang on, isn't that what Mark has been quietly doing all this time?

Yes, and that is the right thing to do and the just thing to do. The manifold and just aspirations of the reds need to be heard (truly heard), seen to be heard and addressed. What's that hackneyed old chestnut of Lincoln's - justice must not only be done but it must be seen to be done (something like that). My problem with the red leadership is that they're not credible bearers of those aspirations - quite the reverse in fact. The behavior of that leadership is not only detrimental to the aspirations of those they pretend to champion but detrimental to the democratic development of the country as whole - this also was the sorry story with Thaksin.

[animatic]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.

That's very true. The grass roots reds need to throw off their manipulators. Including Friend Thaksin. Then the government of the day should sit and listen to the problems of Thailand's poor, and put in place some policies to improve equality. Hang on, isn't that what Mark has been quietly doing all this time?

Yes,

but the getting the word out has been intentionally stifled by the Red Information Control network.

Either by blocking the speech or drowning it out in drivel and propaganda.

No chance they could acknoledge the good things that have been started,

because that undercuts their message and route to power.

You can't vilify your political enemy enough to cause a rampage against him

if you admit he HAS heard any of your requests and acted on any of them.

[bubba]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.

That's very true. The grass roots reds need to throw off their manipulators. Including Friend Thaksin. Then the government of the day should sit and listen to the problems of Thailand's poor, and put in place some policies to improve equality. Hang on, isn't that what Mark has been quietly doing all this time?

Sure, and one good place to start might be to citizens to pay their legal taxes so there would be some money in coffers to pay for the necessary social programmes. But then, the red shirt leadership is not know for their propensity to pay taxes, are they?

And by the way, did you know that after Thaksin's grandfather immigrated to Thailand from China, he made his initial fortune as a tax farmer? Profiting by collecting taxes from the lower class and making a profit on it. How ironic....

[animatic]

If the reds continue to think they have a winning hand they will escalate.

The only real place to go after this is true all out civil war.

Blockade them, very tightly.

They picked the final battle ground, let them be hungry and loud there,

until they realize they get hungrier faster than Central world gets broke.

[Jingthing]

If the reds continue to think they have a winning hand they will escalate.

The only real place to go after this is true all out civil war.

Blockade them, very tightly.

They picked the final battle ground, let them be hungry and loud there,

until they realize they get hungrier faster than Central world gets broke.

On second thought, they should give them water only (not food). The idea isn't to help them commit suicide, its to get them to disperse from an illegal takeover of an important part of the city with minimal injuries. Not sure about the ethics of adding ecstasy or valium to the water though, that was a joke, sort of ...

The leaders will get hungry too.

Of course maybe they can get copters to drop food, nothing is easy in any of this.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Jingthing

[way2muchcoffee]

If the reds continue to think they have a winning hand they will escalate.

The only real place to go after this is true all out civil war.

Blockade them, very tightly.

They picked the final battle ground, let them be hungry and loud there,

until they realize they get hungrier faster than Central world gets broke.

I disagree. I don't really see how to accomplish this. You'd have people swimming across the klong and bringing in food. You'd have to spread your forces rather thinly to contain the area and then the crowd would be able to break through. You could also start a riot. If those department stores or other buildings were looted or torched the economic damages would be staggering. Assuming that the reds will not negotiate, then I reckon that there aren't too many choices.

1) Agree to the reds terms.

2) Don't agree and try to wait them out.

3) Bring in about 100,000 soldiers and 50,000 police with tanks, helicopters, tear gas, rubber bullets, and water canon. Perhaps a show of force of this magnitude would be a game changer. If not, start arresting anyone they can at the edges of the crowd and put them in trucks. If a riot erupts then unleash the security forces with non-lethal dispersal means.

What else can be done?

Edited April 15, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Neurath]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.

That's very true. The grass roots reds need to throw off their manipulators. Including Friend Thaksin. Then the government of the day should sit and listen to the problems of Thailand's poor, and put in place some policies to improve equality. Hang on, isn't that what Mark has been quietly doing all this time?

Sure, and one good place to start might be to citizens to pay their legal taxes so there would be some money in coffers to pay for the necessary social programmes. But then, the red shirt leadership is not know for their propensity to pay taxes, are they?

And by the way, did you know that after Thaksin's grandfather immigrated to Thailand from China, he made his initial fortune as a tax farmer? Profiting by collecting taxes from the lower class and making a profit on it. How ironic....

Speaking of taxation: it's interesting to note that the thing that really put Thaksin on the nose wasn't his systematic dismantling of the all the instrumentalities of the 1997 constitution but his attempt to tax the informal sectors of the economy. That is, he sent inspectors from the revenue department to streetside restaurants to count tables in order that tax might be calculated effectively. This is what caused the initial backlash against him. How very ironic.

[britmaveric]

^3rd option won't happen, so we can eliminate that - army is fractured. You will see army fighting each other before they even get to the reds.

[NCFC]

Living in a fantasy world. Sooner or later their sponsors will run out of cash and these Red Shirts will also be abandoned

And you said the reds would be done in a couple of days. Well you been wrong in every prediction you've made and you've just got it wrong once more.

[NCFC]

I'm surprised that the business owners in Ratchaphrasong don't start constructing metal gates on the ground floor of their buildings. If they were able to make the ground floor of all the buildings into a wall of steel, the leverage of the protesters would be gone.

Haha cage the dangerous animals.....and throw in a few muzzles for the leaders!

Well the old way to break a siege was to catapult in a few dead cows with anthrax or the like.

Pretty soon the castle leader bows to necessity. Lacking infectious carrion,

I am sure there are a few things that if tossed at one end would create a desire to exit at the other.

More seriously, the idea of a blockade and letting nothing in or out until

a general REAL SURRENDER is reached, has some merits.

You tell 'em, Animatic. In fact, why don't you get yourself up there to Bangkok and get this blockade started. I'm sure many of your TV chums are waiting for a leader such as yourself to step forward and lead from the front.

[NCFC]

With the red zone consolidated downtown what a perfect opportunity to cut off their khao by refusing entry to food and drink vendors, and shutting down food suppliers in the vicinity. I predict a mass exodus would occur within 3-4 hours

Fruitbat (how appropriate), I suggest you get down to the barricades right away. Animatic needs all the help he can get.

[NCFC]

I see another Thailand English language media is now headlining "Army admit firing live rounds at protestors".

So first the Abhisit/Suthep circus says no soldiers had live ammo.

Then they change that story and say they had some but only fired in the air.

Then they change that story and say had some, fired in the air and only if needed, but not directly at protestors.

Now finally they admit they had live ammo, they fired directly at protestors.

This immoral and parliamentary coup made government is a national disgrace, in fact, its now a worldwide disgrace for Thailand to have them in power and to lie so much.

They got caught out as too many people have camera's video and mobile phone camera's - its 2010 and not 1992.

Why is Anupong not demanding Abhisit resign ? Why has Abhisit not resigned ? Why has Suthep not resigned ? Why has Anupong not resigned ?

Read back to all that was said when Somchai ordered the police to crackdown on PAD Yellows who were treasonous and blocked parliament from opening. Yet more "double standards".

The army said from the beginning that NCOs and officers had live ammo for the purposes of firing over the protestors heads and self defence. The troops suddenly came under brutal fire from grenade launchers and assault rifles and needed to get their wounded to safety. So those with live ammo returned fire to cover their men. I would certainly have done the same without hesitation and so would you. If this had been a brutal crackdown, the army would have cleared the area very fast with their M16s on full auto and would have taken far fewer casualties themselves. With the red shirt cannon fodder fleeing and falling like nine pins, there would have been no cover for their gunmen to hide behind and the army would have quickly killed them, if they even dared show their faces in such circumstances. More likely the red gunmen would have fled without firing at all.

That would have looked good on CNN and around the world, wouldn't it. Doh!

[NCFC]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.

That's very true. The grass roots reds need to throw off their manipulators. Including Friend Thaksin. Then the government of the day should sit and listen to the problems of Thailand's poor, and put in place some policies to improve equality. Hang on, isn't that what Mark has been quietly doing all this time?

Hang on, No he hasn't! Mark has been quietly covering up the TPI Polene mess all this time. Only now cat is out of the bag and nobody can catch that little moggy anywhere.

[ozzieman05]

Thai wife is in good form tonight

She has the perfect solution to get rid of the Red shirts in Bangkok

Invite thousands of Farang to go to Issan and supply free beer

Put on a big party and let protestors know their wives and girlfriends have farang to keep them company back in Issan while they protest in Bangkok

How long do you think the protestors will stay

See

Never underestimate the cunning of a Thai lady

[NCFC]

You are kidding yourself. The red's position is completely inflexible. They won't negotiate ANYTHING.

The position of Jatuporn/Thaksin, Nattawut and Arisman are completely inflexible. Addressing the aspirations and being seen to understand the aspirations of majority of the red shirt protesters is a different thing.

That's very true. The grass roots reds need to throw off their manipulators. Including Friend Thaksin. Then the government of the day should sit and listen to the problems of Thailand's poor, and put in place some policies to improve equality. Hang on, isn't that what Mark has been quietly doing all this time?

Yes,

but the getting the word out has been intentionally stifled by the Red Information Control network.

Either by blocking the speech or drowning it out in drivel and propaganda.

No chance they could acknoledge the good things that have been started,

because that undercuts their message and route to power.

You can't vilify your political enemy enough to cause a rampage against him

if you admit he HAS heard any of your requests and acted on any of them.

Okaaay, so it's this Red Information Control network thingumy that has been blocking the web sites, closing down radio and TV stations and putting people in the slammer who tried to exercise free speech? Jeez, and I thought it was the government.

Let me guess Animatic, you're a big fan of Lost, right?

[Neurath]

With the red zone consolidated downtown what a perfect opportunity to cut off their khao by refusing entry to food and drink vendors, and shutting down food suppliers in the vicinity. I predict a mass exodus would occur within 3-4 hours

Fruitbat (how appropriate), I suggest you get down to the barricades right away. Animatic needs all the help he can get.

The frontline and most terrifying ring of this blockade would be made up of a scrum of Luis Vuitton wielding Khunyings with high shellacked hair lulling the protesters to the rocks of rich consumerism with the song of the Sirens of Odysseus. "Come" they sing, "come to the pleasures of the Paragon" and like like the zombies from a Romero film, the red crowds follow only to be stunned and stupified by the glittering commercial plenty on show. At that point the Khunyings lock them in Paragon and build another bigger Paragon in a gated community in Nonthaburri.

[noel2499rk]

Why has colonel Sansern taken over my TV he's on every channel.

[grandpops]

Thai wife is in good form tonight

She has the perfect solution to get rid of the Red shirts in Bangkok

Invite thousands of Farang to go to Issan and supply free beer

Put on a big party and let protestors know their wives and girlfriends have farang to keep them company back in Issan while they protest in Bangkok

How long do you think the protestors will stay

See

Never underestimate the cunning of a Thai lady

I hope this post doesn't get pulled as we need to see what revolting condescending ideas people have of Thais.

You insult the entire north by suggesting they would be romping with falangs! I hope your wife is more cunning when she skins you.... which she eventually will. Thais love thais and your insulting ways are likely to extend further than this purile, post.

Good luck when she fathoms you out mate... if she hasn't already.

[britmaveric]

Put on a big party and let protestors know their wives and girlfriends have farang to keep them company back in Issan while they protest in Bangkok

How long do you think the protestors will stay

What if the wives and gfs are in Bangkok?

[connel707]

Phan Fa has little value at this point. If the reds want to hold the Thai Economy hostage they know the shopping district is more valuable. They can cause more mayhem there if there is a crackdown. Since they are all in one place they should be blockaded in. All stores and businesses should close. Prevent new reds from entering the area and let's see how long they protest without access to food and water.

I have great trouble in getting my head around the notion that closing a few posh shops flogging a load of pretentious crap to gullible people to whom wearing a designer label has great significance will hold the Thai economy to hostage. Why anybody should pay well over the odds for gear, that has probably been manufactured in a sweat shop, to swank about in thinking that it conveys status escapes me. The irony of people closing down shops selling stuff that they will never ever be able to afford themselves strikes a chord.

Where did you get this Idea, these shops sell high quality clothes and accessories, only affordable to the better off clients amongst us, we all love to shop here and carry our new bought items home in the lovely little bags.. Shopping here makes us all feel good and allows us to wear quality clothes which befit quality people.. why do you think these shopping malls are so busy... and Very busy they are... get a life cheap charlie..!!! Don`t you hate poor people..!!!

[Neurath]

Why has colonel Sansern taken over my TV he's on every channel.

Amongst others, he showed the following clip:

A Songtaew full of injured soldiers on the way to hospital (having been shot in a soi) attacked by the red mob. They pulled soldiers from the back of the Songtaew and started beating them over the head with sticks and poles. They then pulled the driver(s) out, attacked them, chased them, cornered them and beat them some more.

[ozzieman05]

Thai wife is in good form tonight

She has the perfect solution to get rid of the Red shirts in Bangkok

Invite thousands of Farang to go to Issan and supply free beer

Put on a big party and let protestors know their wives and girlfriends have farang to keep them company back in Issan while they protest in Bangkok

How long do you think the protestors will stay

See

Never underestimate the cunning of a Thai lady

I hope this post doesn't get pulled as we need to see what revolting condescending ideas people have of Thais.

You insult the entire north by suggesting they would be romping with falangs! I hope your wife is more cunning when she skins you.... which she eventually will. Thais love thais and your insulting ways are likely to extend further than this purile, post.

Good luck when she fathoms you out mate... if she hasn't already.

The only problem with your great knowledge about Thais is

The most common question I get when I go to her village with her is

"Can you find me a Farang"

Maybe we live in a different Thailand

Your second comment that one day she will skin me

Ha ha

I can not work in Thailand and she owns 3 shops

She looks after me my dear friend

we also have a young daughter together, and in her village it would be bad face for her that she can not look after her man

Me thinks you have bad experience with bar girl maybe

Any way it is her country and what we think = a big fat 0

[MB1]

^3rd option won't happen, so we can eliminate that - army is fractured. You will see army fighting each other before they even get to the reds.

Any chance you can change your name to "Mystic Meg", your predictions have not been good up to now, neither were her's when I did the lottery. :