Lcd Tv Buying Advice

[Daren]

Our 4 year old Panasonic recently had a little accident and it's gone up to see it maker. The screens is completely shattered and it's my understanding that replacing the panel is often as much as, or more costly than buying a new set. So I've come to ask the wonderful posters here at ThaiVisa for their help. If you were TV shopping today, what would you buy and where would you buy it?

We don't need anything massive, 32" - 40" should be plenty and we do want to save some cash, so top-of-the-line isn't desired. Samsung had caught my eye as they were one of the first brands to offer a USB port right on the set, but now it seems that's become a more common feature. Though, what about codec support? Is one company much better than another when it comes to the variety of video it can playback? Of course Sony is always a good bet in terms of quality, but I'm not sure they're really in the running for the cost vs performance title.

We live in BKK, between Thonglor and Ekkamai, and I have transportation, so I wouldn't mind driving a ways if it meant significant savings. I've heard mixed reports on PowerBuy - is it crap or the best game it town? Of course Tesco, Big-C and Carrefour all stock a fair number of TV's, is there any reason not to go there?

I've read a few LCD TV Buyers' Guides and they're helpful when comparing spec's, but anecdotal can also be very valuable, esp. as TiT, after all.

I'm eager to hear your ideas!

[bazmlb]

Here is a guide a friend of mine wrote, prices are AUD, he has put in a lot of info so I thought I would share his findings.

Version 3.0 – 2010 (5.5 years since the first one in November 2004!)

(I thought I'd knock-up this guide for anyone who was interested. I have researched all the figures but make no excuse for glaring inaccuracies or omissions.)

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** Large flat-screens are now affordable and their performance can be excellent. Quality 54 inch Plasmas or 42 inch LCD panels can be bought for under $2000. Pretty much all the issues with either technology have been resolved.

Projectors are still great value for really large screen pleasure, considering a $2500 model can throw a 100 inch image. But you need to have a dedicated setup and plan to buy a new projector when the bulb burns out.

First, a word about aliasing and why you should only buy a full HD panel:

Aliasing is when the source image does not fit into the display properly. An image with a certain number of picture elements (pixels) can only be properly displayed on a device that supports the same or multiple number of pixels. All flat panel displays will suffer from aliasing artifacts. It is not possible to avoid this unless watching native content, or images that are evenly divisible in width and height to the display resolution. Only multisync CRTs will be free of this. What happens when you try to display a higher resolution image in a smaller panel?

See this demo.

http://gawain.soc.staffs.ac.uk/modules/lev...html/alias1.htm

This is what happens when a So, an image of 1920x1080 needs to be scaled to fit 1366x768, 1280x960, 1024x768, 852x480, or other pixel field. The relative loss of detail actually experienced by the viewer will depend on factors such as screen size and viewing distance from the screen.

What this means: ONLY BUY A FULL HD DISPLAY!!!! 1920 x 1080

In Australia we have 2 widescreen digital TV options: Standard Definition and High Definition.

These have varying resolutions (number of (dots) pixels high, by a number of pixels wide).

SD = 720 x 576i (interlaced)

HD = 720 x 576p (progressive) and 1920 x 1080i (interlaced)

http://www.dba.org.au/index.asp?sectionID=15

The USA (which a lot of content comes from) uses

DS = 640 x 480p (720 x 480p widescreen)

HD = 1280 x 720p

And between HD-DVD and BLURAY, we have a clear winner! BluRay has won. And it is currently 1920 x 1080 worldwide.

In essence, when purchasing an HDTV, it is not only important to make sure that you can input 480p, 720p, or 1080i signals, but you must also consider the pixel field of the monitor itself (and whether upconversion/downconversion is used). You want to try and avoid aliasing!

So, in conclusion, ONLY BUY A FULL HD DISPLAY!!!! 1920 x 1080.

Technologies:

CRT (Cathode Ray Tube) A standard TV. (Deader that a doornail)

This is what we are all used to. Uses an electron gun to excite a phosphor coating on the screen.

The life expectancy of CRT is a 30% reduction of phosphor brightness every 20,000 hours.

This can be compensated for by adjusting the brightness/contrast settings to a point, giving an expected useful lifetime of approx. 50,000 hours. Basically, if your television is on for 8 hours a day, its half-life would be about 15 years - or, if on 4 hours a day, the half-life would be about 25 years.

One of the problems is that the phosphors are designed to be linear, whereas the sensitivity of the human eye is not. As the phosphors fade, the eye sees more of the green phosphor due to the eye's sensitivity to green. Hence, old TVs have a green tinge to the image which most people do not notice until they compare it side by side to a new TV. (The brain does a good job of auto-white balancing.)

CRTs have very high brightness and contrast, and are capable of high resolution images.

The need for a vacuum inside the tube requires thicker glass at larger sizes making very large displays prohibitive. The largest CRT is around 100cm.

Contrast is around 5000:1 or more.

This is now totally dead technology. Today’s flat panels have totally surpassed the performance of CRT.

Plasma TV Overview

Plasma television technology is based loosely on the fluorescent light bulb. The display itself consists of cells. Within each cell two glass panels are separated by a narrow gap in which neon-xenon gas is injected and sealed in plasma form during the manufacturing process. The gas is electrically charged at specific intervals when the Plasma set is in use. The charged gas then strikes red, green, and blue phosphors, thus creating a television image. Each group of red, green, and blue phosphors is called a pixel (picture element).

Plasma panels have a 50% reduction (Half life) of around 100,000 hours, Basically, if your Plasma television is on for 8 hours a day, its half-life would be about 30 years.

Plasma panels now have a contrast ratio of around 50,000:1

Recent technology updates such as the newer Panasonic panels have a contrast ratio of 2,000,000 :1

Plasma panels still suffer from some of the drawbacks of traditional CRT, such as heat generation and screen-burn of static images. But this is really irrelevant now as the new 12th generation panels handle all this.

They have great viewing angle ability as there is no filter over the pixels so they look bright and true from any angle.

They do use just a little more power than an LCD, but the beat-up is overrated. They suck about 300 watts for a 50 inch panel.

LCD TV Overview

LCD televisions, on the other hand, use a different technology. LCD are now the preferred device of vendors due to their lower cost to produce. As with any technology, if more money is spent on it, it will generally prevail. And it did!

Basically, LCD panels are made of two layers of transparent material, which are polarized, and are "glued" together. One of the layers is coated with a special polymer that holds the individual liquid crystals. Current is then passed through individual crystals, which allow the crystals to pass or block light to create images. LCD crystals do not produce their own light, so an external light source, such as florescent bulb is needed for the image created by the LCD to become visible to the viewer.

LCD panels will last indefinitely, apart from "dead pixels" due to transistor failures. The backlight however, is the limiting factor and most are rated for around 60,000 hours, Basically, if your Plasma television is on for 8 hours a day, it would last about 18 years.

The main disadvantage of LCD panels is they are more sensitive to viewing angle. Due to the polarised nature of the pixels, contrast and brightness is lost if sitting outside the recommended viewing angle. Advances in R&D are minimising this but not completely. So if you will have people watching from the side, above or below, it won’t look as good. Check your panel before you buy, as the newer 7th generation panels have really minimised this.

LCD has a contrast ratio of 10,000:1 with the best available at around 50,000:1 (Natively)

LCD panels are very thin.

Unlike standard CRT and Plasma televisions, since there are no phosphors that light up, less power is needed for operation and the light source in an LCD television generates less heat than a Plasma or traditional television. Around 170 watts for a 46 inch panel.

** Beware of panels that claim they are LED when really they are LCD. These LCD-LED panels use white LEDs instead of conventional backlights. This is actually a really good idea, and gives them greater dynamic range. But the panels themselves are NOT LED and should really be advertised as LED Backlit LCD Panels... and now you see why they don’t.

Plasma vs. LCD

The ADVANTAGES of Plasma over LCD are:

1. Larger screen size per dollar and availability.

2. Better contrast ratio and ability to render deeper blacks.

3. Better colour accuracy and saturation.

The DISADVANTAGES of Plasma vs LCD include:

1. Plasma TVs generate more heat than LCDs

2. Plasma TVs use more power than LCDs – around 80% more.

3. Do not perform as well at higher altitudes.

LCD television ADVANTAGES over Plasma include:

1. Use less power than Plasma.

2. Cooler running temperature.

3. No high altitude use issues.

4. Increased image brightness over Plasma.

5. Longer display life (about 60,000 hours - at which time all you may need to do is replace the light source, not the entire set). This can vary according other environmental and use factors.

DISADVANTAGES of LCD vs Plasma televisions include:

1. Lower contrast ratio, not as good rendering deep blacks.

2. LCD televisions are much more expensive than equivalent-sized Plasma televisions.

Projectors:

Here is an even more diverse subject!

Lamp life is usually in the order of 3000 – 5000 hours. Lamps cost between $300 - $800 dollars.

Brightness is not comparable to the other display types above. You need a darker room. However, the image will brighten if a smaller image is projected. This follows the inverse square law, in that an image that is twice as wide is four times as dim. So with a modern projector, you could easily display a 42 inch image in a well lit room, and then zoom out to a 100 inch image in the dark.

Brightness output of projectors is a function of the bulb and size of the unit. Projectors are available that are adequate for stadium use and other very large venues, with a price-tag to match. Brightness ranges from 700 lumens to 8,000 lumens. Hopefully, bulbs will soon be replaced with high-output solid-state lasers. This will eliminate the major weakness of a projector system.

There are three main types of projectors:

LCD

The use of three separate panels (RGB) allows greater brightness at added expense.

High resolution panels are available, and colour output quality of the latest generation projectors is superb.

LCD has a contrast ratio of 5000:1 with the best currently available at around 50,000 :1 (with use of a dynamic iris)

CRT

Dead.

DLP

Digital Light Processor technology uses a small, square chip that has thousands of tiny mirrors that can be angled in two directions. The tiny squares have pivots on opposite angles. Intensity is controlled by oscillating the mirrors on/off axis to create the desired light level. Because the mirrors are so close together on the chip, the "screen door" effect is negligible. (LCD projectors have fixed this now)

The current method of applying colour to the image is to send the output through a rotating colour wheel of RGB. This can cause some people to see "rainbow" patterns in fast moving images. This is largely addressed by increasing the speed of the colour wheels to combat visual latency.

3 panel DLP projectors eliminate this problem.

Because the DLP reflects light rather than filtering it (as in an LCD) the contrast ratios and brightness are generally higher for a given bulb type and price bracket.

Contrast is now around 50,000:1 or more.

The Future:

In 2004 I said: Organic LED technology is exciting due to the fact that O-LEDS are bright, efficient, self-luminescent, and can display all colours of the spectrum from each pixel, eliminating the need to have RGB components. Current half-life expectancy is 10,000 hours. This will rapidly increase if adopted by display manufacturers as advances in manufacturing take place. .....

In 2006 I said: The technology is still great and is being used more and more for mobile phones and camera displays. The expected scalability didn't happen.

In 2010 I said: The current Gen 7 LCDs and Gen 12 Plasma panels look awesome. Did I mention you must have full HD (1920 x 1080)?

SOMETHING to note is the refresh rate. At least 200 Hertz will “probably” allow you to watch 3D content in the future. So bear that in mind when purchasing.

In 2004 I said: - However, the price of Plasma displays is dropping rapidly as mass production and consumer acceptance grows. The race will be on to achieve an attractive price-point. (My estimate is that consumers will fork out when 150cm panels hit $2000) This may limit the development of OLED displays, but they are gaining ground in the portable device arena due to their many advantages over existing technologies (mainly resolution due to needing only 1/3 of the elements), where advances will inevitably flow into larger display technologies.

In 2006 I said: Well, the price point did drop. 42 inch plasmas for around $2000 are now common.

My new guess is that with players like Sony pushing LCD as hard as it will go, that LCD will displace Plasma in the next 12 -18 months in both price and performance. OLED will be phased in once they recoup all their R&D dollars of LCD. 5 - 7 years.

In 2010 I said: Well, Plasma has still stayed just ahead of LCD, ans as for OLED - It takes money to retool, and if the average consumer sees no advantage, it makes sense to stretch the old technology investment dollars to their limit before competing with a different process. However, I still believe O-LED will be the tech in the future. You can buy a smallish one today! If you are rich.

OLED TV = http://www.sony.com.au/product/xel-1

OLED References:

http://www.usc.edu/org/techalliance/Anthol...al_Crawford.pdf

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsf...EDsdisplays.php

In conclusion, Rob Recommends:

Go for it! Buy yourself a big panel.

The big screen flat panels of 1920 x 1080 native are now here.

I prefer Plasma but it really is your choice as the difference is no longer obvious.

BluRay players are cheap ($250) , and you can hire 1920 x 1080 BluRays from Blockbuster at the same price as DVDs for all your glorious Hi-Def entertainment.

Sony PlayStation 3 is Hi-Def, so that will look great too.

There is talk about a possible set-top box that will allow you to watch 3D content in the future. If you want to take the minimum steps to allow this, get a panel with a minimum refresh rate of 200 Hz. Personally, I think that by then a new panel will be required, and I am not sure any technology that requires you to wear glasses will be a big hit in the home. But a panel that supports 200 Hz or more shouldn’t be a big ask as they all seem to anyway.

If you want a home cinema, buy a screen/projector for night-time movie enjoyment. A 1920 x 1080 3 panel LCD projector will set you back $2500 and throw a 100 inch image with no problem. If you want to be cheap and don't want to buy a $300 screen, use a white wall.! And having to have the lights off gives you that real home theatre feel.

The Epson I bought is so bright, you can use it in the day time (though colour is not as good if you crank it that high).

http://www.epson.com.au/products/projector/eh-tw3500.asp

[Nio]

I have a 50" Samsung from Powerbuy and a 42" Samsung from Tesco.

Love both of them

The TV is just the display, you need to understand your DVD player to see what formats that will play line DVD, CD, MP3, copies etc

[kuffki]

what ever you buy, do not buy LG.

Should anything go wrong you could be in for a treat.

If you need full story-feel free to PM me

[Daren]

bazmlb, thanks for sharing that. There is some good info in there, though I feel like I should I point out that buying a 1080p TV is only really a good idea when panel size and viewing distance are both within a particular range. Check out this handy dandy chart for a general reference.

Another problem your friend seems to fall victim of is that manufacturers manipulate contrast ratio measure techniques to get the highest possible number. Check out this article, if you're so inclined!

Contrast ratio of LCD TV - explained

The contrast ratio measures the capacity of a display device to produce the brightest colour and the darkest colour and it is usually expressed as a ratio of their light intensities. There is a lot of disagreement prevails in measuring the contrast ratio so the contrast ratio measured using different methods show different figures.

While manufacturers of LCD TV follow their own methods to measure the contrast ratio, most of them are reluctant to take into account the effect of room light conditions. Majority of them have a view that the contrast ratio of a display device like LCD TVs should be measured in an ideal room where there is no place for the light from TV to get reflected and all the light that a TV emits is completely absorbed. They usually prefer the method of the complete on/off when they measure the contrast ratio as it would show the maximum contrast ratio.

There is another method, the Ansi contrast which provides the most realistic ratio as it includes the effects of room into measurement. Ansi contrast is often used to measure static contrast ratio while complete on/off method is employed to measure the dynamic ratio.

The methods used for measuring pure black and white vary from one manufacturer to another. However, all these methods are less likely to give the contrast ratio acceptable by everyone. There is always discrepancy between the contrast ratio specified by the maker and the actual contrast ratio that a viewer discovers after he puts the TV under a test.

Newer LCD TVs use PVA (Patterned Vertical Alignment) and S-PVA (Super Patterned Vertical Alignment) to produce deeper black levels and greater viewing angles. S-PVA also removes ghosting to certain extent by providing fast response times using RTC technologies.

Good black depth is prerequisite for viewing dark scenes in well-lit rooms. PVA and S-PVA technologies enhance the contrast ratio up to 3000:1

Another method a LCD TV uses to offer black depth is by illuminating the wall behind the screen thus making the dark scenes appear darker.

From here: http://www.lcdtvreviews.org.uk/lcd-tv/cont...atio-explained/

Nio - Perhaps that is the case with your TV's, but many newer models have support for DiVX, MPEG and potentially other video formats on board! All you have to do is load up a flash drive or external HDD with your favorite videos, plug it in and away you go! Samsung was the first one to have USB ports on many of it's LCD TV's, but I see them on other brands now too.

Kuffki, I never really like LG stuff in the past, and now I will be sure to avoid them!

Thanks for the input, folks!

[farangUSA]

3-D TV has hit the market here in the US. I am not sure about the Asian market having 3-D TV. Maybe you would hold off buying a LCD for now.

[garyh]

3-D TV has hit the market here in the US. I am not sure about the Asian market having 3-D TV. Maybe you would hold off buying a LCD for now.

Did you read the OP, "top of line is not desired".

If you find a TV you like with no USB there are plenty of DVD players on the market now that have it.

[farangUSA]

3-D TV has hit the market here in the US. I am not sure about the Asian market having 3-D TV. Maybe you would hold off buying a LCD for now.

Did you read the OP, "top of line is not desired".

If you find a TV you like with no USB there are plenty of DVD players on the market now that have it.

The idea is when 3-D is available the price of LCD should be more affordable.

[thailoht]

....Aren't LED TVs readily available in LOS now? I think I saw the first one in Robinson's(?) a couple of months ago.

With this new and clear picture technology, maybe LCD is on the way to being yesterday's item.

[gmac]

....Aren't LED TVs readily available in LOS now? I think I saw the first one in Robinson's(?) a couple of months ago.

With this new and clear picture technology, maybe LCD is on the way to being yesterday's item.

Yes it is , which what makes it such a good buy now. The prices are tumbling, LED is already everywhere but very expensive, so if someone is looking for an excellent bargain with good picture but not the latest technology, which sounds like the OP, then now is surely the time to buy an LCD.

[Jonathanpattaya]

....Aren't LED TVs readily available in LOS now? I think I saw the first one in Robinson's(?) a couple of months ago.

With this new and clear picture technology, maybe LCD is on the way to being yesterday's item.

I was looking at some Samsung LED TV's in Festival Centre on Beach Road in Pattaya.

They make my Samsung LCD picture look drab by comparison.

[Daren]

How much were they going for, Jonathanpattaya and Gmac? Arm and leg-type prices?

I have seen a comparison between LED LCD and CFL LCD before, and it's striking how much better the LED's color and brightness are!

One thing I know: there are only bad times and worse times to buy electronics.

Does anyone have an opinion on PowerBuy?

[Phil Conners]

Interesting thread. I recently (within the last 6 months) brought a 42" Full HD LCD. In retrospect I should have bought a 5X" Plasma instead. I also don't quite agree that you need Full HD in Pattaya at this time. I don't think there are any Blueray media for rent anywhere here yet - though I may stand corrected for that, I haven't really looked for any, but as my main source of movies is from Torrents I don't really have any use for the added screen res - and a good avi is just fine for me!

[avidflyer]

Plasma has improved and is generally better than LCD these days.

[JimShortz]

Plasma has improved and is generally better than LCD these days.

Yes, Plasma TVs often have a great picture, but cost more than LCD (especially if you want Full HD) and on average consume twice the electricity of an LCD TV.

Good LCD TVs also have great pictures. I'm really happy with the 40" Samsung Full HD that I bought recently for only 22,500 Baht and my friend loves his LG 42" that he paid about 35,000 for. To be honest they both look great and have high contrast ratios (his is higher as you would expect for the extra cash). We both thought Full HD was important to give the TVs long life spans, assuming they last that long! If you have a PS3 or XBOX360 you will definitely want Full HD now to use these game machines at their full resolution.

[Daren]

On the topic of Plasma, I love the way they look, but hate how much they cost! The blacks are so much better than LCD currently, but I also live in an apartment where electricity costs are already inflated. I think I'd be better off going with the LCD to save on the sticker price as well as cost of using it.

Jim Shortz, where did you buy your Samsung? That seems like a pretty good price!

I download a lot of HD documentaries, so full HD would be really nice!

Edited April 17, 2010 by Daren

[nikster]

Bought a 32" Samsung Series 4 recently. It cost me all of 12,500 baht. But the really amazing thing is the image quality - it's leaps and bounds better than my 2 year old Samsung (cost: 30k baht at the time), particularly when watching low-resolution True satellite TV. They've apparently improved the upscaling quite dramatically.

I was happy this was rather cheap. But I was stunned by the difference in image quality.

I also advise against LG. Everything that I ever bought from LG had problems and / or broke. So I am not doing it anymore even though they often have nice designs. Samsung, on the other hand, has never given me any trouble.

PS: At 32" you don't need HD, it's a bit of a waste on that small a screen.

[astral]

There are discussions already running

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Large-Television-t340328.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Samsung-Plasma-50-t329019.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Lcd-Televisi...er-t304980.html

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