Flights Delayed From Bkk To France, Insurance

[msg362]

Our flight to Paris was delayed because of the volcanic ash and the closure of most of europe's airports. Consequently we lost our train connections and have had to buy more.

We are told, by the insurance company that we got through Thai Visa that this is a 'natural disaster' and not covered, while ''serious weather conditions' are.

I woud have thought that a common sense definition of the dust in the atmosphere over europe was a 'serious weather condition', just as ,say, a typhoon would be. I can't work out who is right.

Does anyone have a working/ legal definition of 'serious weather condition' that can distinguish it from ' natural disaster'?

[ukrules]

Insurance companies do this all the time, they will fight it all the way as there are huge amounts at stake. If I were you I would forget about claiming it but be sure to register the name of the insurance company who didn't pay with as many different forums and insurance review websites as you can and never use the entire insurance group for anything else for the rest of your life - if lots of people do this then eventually they will suffer and with a bit of luck go bankrupt.

[stevenl]

IMO it is pretty obvious that a vulcanic eruption is an event from nature, and not a weather condition.

[msg362]

IMO it is pretty obvious that a vulcanic eruption is an event from nature, and not a weather condition.

Thank you for your opinion, do you have any legal definition/ precedent to back it up? Weather is an event from nature too. How do you distinguish?

Edited April 22, 2010 by msg362

[Kitsch22]

What is the exact wording from the "risks covered" and "exclusions" sections of your policy document?

Is the insurer a Thai company and was the policy taken in Thailand and expressed to be written under Thai law?

[goldfinger]

isn´t the wind direction a "weather condition?"

no wind-no ash cloud over europe

(But to be honest, I believe that all Insurance companies will use the "Natural Desaster" to avoid any payments.)

Edited April 22, 2010 by goldfinger

[msg362]

What is the exact wording from the "risks covered" and "exclusions" sections of your policy document?

Is the insurer a Thai company and was the policy taken in Thailand and expressed to be written under Thai law?

I took the insurance from AA Insurance brokers, the Thai visa insurers. The company is Pacific Cross .'Bon Voyage Travel Insurance' based in HK

Section 8b says ( I precis)

Travel delay:

in the event of 'serious weather conditions'..............up to $800 for public transportation expenses necessarily incurred as a direct consequence of the travel delay but only if the insured person has to reroute his trip due to cancellation of a prior confirmed booking

Flight on 19th from CNX BKK Bahrain Paris delayed, next flight 25th arrive 26th. Train tickets, bought and paid for 23rd Paris Lausanne Paris return cancelled and rebooked for 28th. It is the train tickets that I want compensation for, new tickets cost about 340 euro for 2 persons

All booked before Volcano!

[MB1]

What is the exact wording from the "risks covered" and "exclusions" sections of your policy document?

Is the insurer a Thai company and was the policy taken in Thailand and expressed to be written under Thai law?

I took the insurance from AA Insurance brokers, the Thai visa insurers. The company is Pacific Cross .'Bon Voyage Travel Insurance' based in HK

Section 8b says ( I precis)

Travel delay:

in the event of 'serious weather conditions'..............up to $800 for public transportation expenses necessarily incurred as a direct consequence of the travel delay but only if the insured person has to reroute his trip due to cancellation of a prior confirmed booking

Flight on 19th from CNX BKK Bahrain Paris delayed, next flight 25th arrive 26th. Train tickets, bought and paid for 23rd Paris Lausanne Paris return cancelled and rebooked for 28th. It is the train tickets that I want compensation for, new tickets cost about 340 euro for 2 persons

All booked before Volcano!

OP have you tried contacting the train company itself to see if they have any provisions to re-issue the train tickets at no extra cost due to the ash cloud situation, the ash cloud situation has affected many travellers worldwide at no fault of their own and I wonder if they have some provision/goodwill in place to help out passengers who could not travel due to the situation.

Maybe worth your while trying to contact the train company direct.

Good luck.

Edited April 22, 2010 by MB1

[msg362]

What is the exact wording from the "risks covered" and "exclusions" sections of your policy document?

Is the insurer a Thai company and was the policy taken in Thailand and expressed to be written under Thai law?

I took the insurance from AA Insurance brokers, the Thai visa insurers. The company is Pacific Cross .'Bon Voyage Travel Insurance' based in HK

Section 8b says ( I precis)

Travel delay:

in the event of 'serious weather conditions'..............up to $800 for public transportation expenses necessarily incurred as a direct consequence of the travel delay but only if the insured person has to reroute his trip due to cancellation of a prior confirmed booking

Flight on 19th from CNX BKK Bahrain Paris delayed, next flight 25th arrive 26th. Train tickets, bought and paid for 23rd Paris Lausanne Paris return cancelled and rebooked for 28th. It is the train tickets that I want compensation for, new tickets cost about 340 euro for 2 persons

All booked before Volcano!

OP have you tried contacting the train company itself to see if they have any provisions to re-issue the train tickets at no extra cost due to the ash cloud situation, the ash cloud situation has affected many travellers worldwide at no fault of their own and I wonder if they have some provision/goodwill in place to help out passengers who could not travel due to the situation.

Maybe worth your while trying to contact the train company direct.

Good luck.

The tickets were very cheap,,no refund etc. The problem is that the new tickets are much more expensive so I've had to pay out 150 euro for the cancelled tickets and now 340 euro for the new ones.

Central issue is 'was the dust cloud a 'serious weather condition'; No one seems to be able to define it.

[msg362]

What is the exact wording from the "risks covered" and "exclusions" sections of your policy document?

Is the insurer a Thai company and was the policy taken in Thailand and expressed to be written under Thai law?

I took the insurance from AA Insurance brokers, the Thai visa insurers. The company is Pacific Cross .'Bon Voyage Travel Insurance' based in HK

Section 8b says ( I precis)

Travel delay:

in the event of 'serious weather conditions'..............up to $800 for public transportation expenses necessarily incurred as a direct consequence of the travel delay but only if the insured person has to reroute his trip due to cancellation of a prior confirmed booking

Flight on 19th from CNX BKK Bahrain Paris delayed, next flight 25th arrive 26th. Train tickets, bought and paid for 23rd Paris Lausanne Paris return cancelled and rebooked for 28th. It is the train tickets that I want compensation for, new tickets cost about 340 euro for 2 persons

All booked before Volcano!

OP have you tried contacting the train company itself to see if they have any provisions to re-issue the train tickets at no extra cost due to the ash cloud situation, the ash cloud situation has affected many travellers worldwide at no fault of their own and I wonder if they have some provision/goodwill in place to help out passengers who could not travel due to the situation.

Maybe worth your while trying to contact the train company direct.

Good luck.

Apologies if this reply comes up twice!

The original tickets were cheap and no refund no change . The new tickets are flexible but more expensive. I've paid out 150 euro for the first, but nnow i have to pay 340 Euro for the second, it is this second sum that I reckon the insurance company owe me.

The central question is ' was the dust a 'serious weather event?'' no one seems to be able to give a definitive answer and as an earlier reply says, the insurance companies will define it to their advantage. So folks, Look at the insurance company I used, and the broker and decide for yourselves whether you want to part with your hard earned cash ($110 in my case)

[stevenl]

IMO it is pretty obvious that a vulcanic eruption is an event from nature, and not a weather condition.

Thank you for your opinion, do you have any legal definition/ precedent to back it up? Weather is an event from nature too. How do you distinguish?

No I don't this is simply common sense.

He, this is life, things go wrong, and sometimes you just suffer damages from them. Accept it and move on.

[Kitsch22]

What is the exact wording from the "risks covered" and "exclusions" sections of your policy document?

Is the insurer a Thai company and was the policy taken in Thailand and expressed to be written under Thai law?

I took the insurance from AA Insurance brokers, the Thai visa insurers. The company is Pacific Cross .'Bon Voyage Travel Insurance' based in HK

Section 8b says ( I precis)

Travel delay:

in the event of 'serious weather conditions'..............up to $800 for public transportation expenses necessarily incurred as a direct consequence of the travel delay but only if the insured person has to reroute his trip due to cancellation of a prior confirmed booking

Flight on 19th from CNX BKK Bahrain Paris delayed, next flight 25th arrive 26th. Train tickets, bought and paid for 23rd Paris Lausanne Paris return cancelled and rebooked for 28th. It is the train tickets that I want compensation for, new tickets cost about 340 euro for 2 persons

All booked before Volcano!

Are you saying that "serious weather conditions" is the only insured contingency under the interference with travel section of cover. Is there no relevant exclusion clause.

Bear in mind in cases like this if there is an ambiguity it would be construed (under English law - quite likely to apply to a contact written by a Hong Kong company) against the insurance company under the contra proferentem principle. But you do not identify the law of your policy. Have the brokers offered no help?

[Kitsch22]

IMO it is pretty obvious that a vulcanic eruption is an event from nature, and not a weather condition.

Thank you for your opinion, do you have any legal definition/ precedent to back it up? Weather is an event from nature too. How do you distinguish?

No I don't this is simply common sense.

He, this is life, things go wrong, and sometimes you just suffer damages from them. Accept it and move on.

But the risk of "things going wrong" is precisely why the OP paid an insurance premium. It now appears that he may perhaps have received poor cover and/or is having a valid claim unjustly and unlawfully denied.

[stevenl]

IMO it is pretty obvious that a vulcanic eruption is an event from nature, and not a weather condition.

Thank you for your opinion, do you have any legal definition/ precedent to back it up? Weather is an event from nature too. How do you distinguish?

No I don't this is simply common sense.

He, this is life, things go wrong, and sometimes you just suffer damages from them. Accept it and move on.

But the risk of "things going wrong" is precisely why the OP paid an insurance premium. It now appears that he may perhaps have received poor cover and/or is having a valid claim unjustly and unlawfully denied.

Come on, that is just looking to blame the insurance company. I don't know the exact cover, but calling a vulcano eruption a weather condition is simply ridiculous.

[happylarry]

Come on Steven there was no volcanic eruption in the UK or Europe so how can it be that.

I must admit it is difficult to explain though.

No volcano equals no ash....but no wind conditions also equals no ash. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

HL

[tw25rw]

If it wasn't for the satellite images, I would have sworn the ash was imaginary. Absolutely no perceptible ash in London at any time during the even.

[msg362]

What is the exact wording from the "risks covered" and "exclusions" sections of your policy document?

Is the insurer a Thai company and was the policy taken in Thailand and expressed to be written under Thai law?

I took the insurance from AA Insurance brokers, the Thai visa insurers. The company is Pacific Cross .'Bon Voyage Travel Insurance' based in HK

Section 8b says ( I precis)

Travel delay:

in the event of 'serious weather conditions'..............up to $800 for public transportation expenses necessarily incurred as a direct consequence of the travel delay but only if the insured person has to reroute his trip due to cancellation of a prior confirmed booking

Flight on 19th from CNX BKK Bahrain Paris delayed, next flight 25th arrive 26th. Train tickets, bought and paid for 23rd Paris Lausanne Paris return cancelled and rebooked for 28th. It is the train tickets that I want compensation for, new tickets cost about 340 euro for 2 persons

All booked before Volcano!

Are you saying that "serious weather conditions" is the only insured contingency under the interference with travel section of cover. Is there no relevant exclusion clause.

Bear in mind in cases like this if there is an ambiguity it would be construed (under English law - quite likely to apply to a contact written by a Hong Kong company) against the insurance company under the contra proferentem principle. But you do not identify the law of your policy. Have the brokers offered no help?

Seems to be. I can find no reference to what law applies, just a section on appointing an arbitrator/arbitrators. I guess I must file a claim and appeal. Thanks for your help

[laphroaig]

It strikes me that an exclusion for natural disaster = crap product. Standard travel insurace here (New Zealand) does not exclude natural disaster and I would not be purchasing one anywhere in the world that did.

My own insurers are looking after ther clients well here. The main thing to remember is that clients need to mitigate losses as much as is possible. This being done, claims are being made in full.

Edited April 24, 2010 by laphroaig

[toptuan]

I come from a state in the USA that was devastated by a volcanic eruption in 1980, including clogged vehicle engines. I assure you that it was not just a "weather condition."

[msg362]

IMO it is pretty obvious that a vulcanic eruption is an event from nature, and not a weather condition.

Thank you for your opinion, do you have any legal definition/ precedent to back it up? Weather is an event from nature too. How do you distinguish?

No I don't this is simply common sense.

He, this is life, things go wrong, and sometimes you just suffer damages from them. Accept it and move on.

I'm not looking to BLAME the insurance company for the Volcano( I blame the Icelanders, I think they are getting their own back because the Brits demanded their money back when the Iceland banks failed, light a volcano is a bit much tho').

I read the policy before I bought it, but admit not forensically, nor did I anticipate a volcanic eruption. I'm sure others will have similar problems as this was a policy bought through Thai Visa.

Others have helped, thank youfolks. Thank you Steven for your opinion but your 'common sense approach' and ' no knowledge of the policy' is not actually advancing the debate. If you have any legal/ precedent/ experience/ to add that would be great

[msg362]

IMO it is pretty obvious that a vulcanic eruption is an event from nature, and not a weather condition.

Thank you for your opinion, do you have any legal definition/ precedent to back it up? Weather is an event from nature too. How do you distinguish?

No I don't this is simply common sense.

He, this is life, things go wrong, and sometimes you just suffer damages from them. Accept it and move on.

I'm not looking to BLAME the insurance company for the Volcano( I blame the Icelanders, I think they are getting their own back because the Brits demanded their money back when the Iceland banks failed, light a volcano is a bit much tho').

I read the policy before I bought it, but admit not forensically, nor did I anticipate a volcanic eruption. I'm sure others will have similar problems as this was a policy bought through Thai Visa.

Others have helped, thank youfolks. Thank you Steven for your opinion but your 'common sense approach' and ' no knowledge of the policy' is not actually advancing the debate. If you have any legal/ precedent/ experience/ to add that would be great

[laphroaig]

Bottom line is that if your policy excludes 'natural disaster' then you will not be covered. There are definitions of natural disaster including extreme weather conditions but normal weather would usually be covered. The 'wather' was not extreme (hurricane, tornado etc)

This was not an extreme weather condition by any stretch of then imagination. Common sense states that extreme weather conditions would be covered as they are not normal and totally unforseen. The basis behind insurance is to protet against the unforseen circumstance. The 'weather' did not contribute to the flight delays as without the Volcanic eruption, the weather would not have any effect on the continuation of the flights.

Act of God - n. a natural disaster such as a tsunami, earthquake, volcanic eruption, wildfire, tornado or hurricane.

As if anyone needed a definition - following such catastrophic events such as the tsunami in South Asia, the hurricane hit U.S. Gulf states, or the devastating earthquake in Pakistan - an "act of God" is a disaster no one can prevent.

Seriously, don't waste your time or energy chasing this. If natural disaster is excluded then learn from this and get a decent cover next time which does not exclude it. I do sympathise but also understand insurance law intimately.

Edited April 24, 2010 by laphroaig

[laphroaig]

On further thought, I re-read your initial post

We are told, by the insurance company that we got through Thai Visa that this is a 'natural disaster' and not covered, while ''serious weather conditions' are.

Unpalatable as it may be, we have to remember the spirit intended when these policies are created. The 'serious weather conditions' aspect is more than likely designed to cover the more frequent occurances where flights are delayed or diverted due to adverse weather conditions. This will be why there is a distinction between 'weather' and 'natural disaster' and why such incidents as the Iceland volcano would specifically be excluded.

[msg362]

On further thought, I re-read your initial post

We are told, by the insurance company that we got through Thai Visa that this is a 'natural disaster' and not covered, while ''serious weather conditions' are.

Unpalatable as it may be, we have to remember the spirit intended when these policies are created. The 'serious weather conditions' aspect is more than likely designed to cover the more frequent occurances where flights are delayed or diverted due to adverse weather conditions. This will be why there is a distinction between 'weather' and 'natural disaster' and why such incidents as the Iceland volcano would specifically be excluded.

Thanks, we leave tomorrow and will relax

Thanks everyone for your comments

[stevenl]

IMO it is pretty obvious that a vulcanic eruption is an event from nature, and not a weather condition.

Thank you for your opinion, do you have any legal definition/ precedent to back it up? Weather is an event from nature too. How do you distinguish?

No I don't this is simply common sense.

He, this is life, things go wrong, and sometimes you just suffer damages from them. Accept it and move on.

I'm not looking to BLAME the insurance company for the Volcano( I blame the Icelanders, I think they are getting their own back because the Brits demanded their money back when the Iceland banks failed, light a volcano is a bit much tho').

I read the policy before I bought it, but admit not forensically, nor did I anticipate a volcanic eruption. I'm sure others will have similar problems as this was a policy bought through Thai Visa.

Others have helped, thank youfolks. Thank you Steven for your opinion but your 'common sense approach' and ' no knowledge of the policy' is not actually advancing the debate. If you have any legal/ precedent/ experience/ to add that would be great

Yes, I do, but I would have to see the policy. Judging anything like this from a distance without any of the wordings is simply impossible.

My only comment was that a vulcanic eruption is not a weather condition, but since you think that does not suit your needs you don't agree with that, up to you.

[msg362]

Thank you for your opinion, do you have any legal definition/ precedent to back it up? Weather is an event from nature too. How do you distinguish?

No I don't this is simply common sense.

He, this is life, things go wrong, and sometimes you just suffer damages from them. Accept it and move on.

I'm not looking to BLAME the insurance company for the Volcano( I blame the Icelanders, I think they are getting their own back because the Brits demanded their money back when the Iceland banks failed, light a volcano is a bit much tho').

I read the policy before I bought it, but admit not forensically, nor did I anticipate a volcanic eruption. I'm sure others will have similar problems as this was a policy bought through Thai Visa.

Others have helped, thank youfolks. Thank you Steven for your opinion but your 'common sense approach' and ' no knowledge of the policy' is not actually advancing the debate. If you have any legal/ precedent/ experience/ to add that would be great

Yes, I do, but I would have to see the policy. Judging anything like this from a distance without any of the wordings is simply impossible.

My only comment was that a vulcanic eruption is not a weather condition, but since you think that does not suit your needs you don't agree with that, up to you.

My goodness, I think you are missing the point. I DO NOT Agree or disagree. I was asking for advice, help. I have given some wording. You now claim to have some expertise having earlier said that you do not - it was 'common sense'- but will not share it. Fine, but not helpful.

[stevenl]

My goodness, I think you are missing the point. I DO NOT Agree or disagree. I was asking for advice, help. I have given some wording. You now claim to have some expertise having earlier said that you do not - it was 'common sense'- but will not share it. Fine, but not helpful.

You have to make a decision: do you want to know whether this is covered under your policy, or do you want to know if a vulcanic eruption is a natural disaster or a weather condition? The latter question has been answered here, by me and others, but the former question can not be answered without the policy.

You received advice here, did not like it so denied it could be true. I have over 10 years experience in analyzing and comparing insurance policies, and have not claimed not to have experience. What I have said is that it is impossible to help you if you only take 1-2 exerts from your policy and not give the complete information, you are confusing the 2 issues at hand.

[msg362]

No I don't this is simply common sense.

He, this is life, things go wrong, and sometimes you just suffer damages from them. Accept it and move on.

I think you wrote this Steven! when I asked you if you had any further information

You also said I was 'blaming the insurance company' For what? the volcano? I think not!

Now you claim expertise and still misread me.

You aren't really helping are you? I think it best if you simply stop adding to this thread

I'll stop as we are off soon and ill try to sort this out on our return

In the meantime be happy!

[stevenl]

As I said: give complete information and you can get a good answer.

Don't do that and you don't get a complete answer, up to you.

Still, a vulcano eruption has nothing to do with the weather.

But since you obviously don't want to know the answer to your question, whichever one that may be, I'll stop here.

[falang4you]

I arrived in Bangkok airport on April 17 th 2010.

I go to the chek inn counter the lady from Evaair told me all the flights to Amsterdam are cancel. I ask for a hotel voucher for me and my son but she told me, it is not our fault

it is the weather condition and denied to give me any assistance she just told me give me

your phone number we wil contact you, when there is a flight, and you can look on Evaair

website to get the information.

April 19 th i phone Evaair they not give any information on the phone and told me look on evaair website for information. I look into the website the only information i can find is

due to volcanic eruption all flights to Amsterdam -London are cancel.

April 20-21 I phone again Evaair no answer?

April 21 in the afternoon someone from Evaair phone me to ask me is I want to fly on

April 22 my answer was yes.

April 22 I fly Evaair to Amsterdam the flight was good and service to

But i was thinking that a company like Evaair would give a good service, instead they let us down. I would understand that from a low cost airline company. i had to pay myself the 6 extra nights hotel room + 6 days meals. Thank you Evaair.