Thai Protesters, Army Make Tentative Peace Overtures

[kuffki]

I'm being facetious, but now that you mention it... maybe it is not so far from the truth... fact is, he seems to be in charge and setting the agenda!

nah, he's not interested. but some of his buddies are, like sondhi and sonthi.

He is retiring in few months, so there is a possibility that he was offered a seat or position with one of the party's for him to have such a sudden change of heart.

May be its a long shot, or may be he is setting himself up to be a defense minister in the new government. After all most retired generas go into politics for half of the time.

And this kind of move will be favored by the red shirts, so kind of ensures the votes-does not it?

he should have been retired 2 years ago or so, but they used special laws to extend his term to protect the PAD

While what you saying makes total sense, his behavior right now does not make any sense at all.

Just speaking of Thai face saving, the no action about army train being held is already strange enough to start wondering

[ETatBKK]

'To create understanding' .... mmm, I think it has already gone beyond 'understanding'.

yeah, I don't have a Thai eye(s) nor a Thai heart to understand all these issues ! but, I am not sure everyone does neither !

would be really good if someone could further elaborate the words 'democracy' and 'dictatorship' in the context of 'United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship' !!

are they fulfiling the objectives, or they are following task orders ?

[ETatBKK]

May be best would be to rent out country governing to another state(country) for sometime anyway. I know it sounds crazy but at least then no red or yellow will be protesting, may be then both will unite

perhaps this is a very creative idea :-)

should I nominate the caretaking by 'people republic of China' ? they have a very efficient PLA soliders too !

( if you are old enough to remember how they managed the incident in Jun 1989 :-(

oh . . . just kidding !

[ozterix]

While what you saying makes total sense, his behavior right now does not make any sense at all.

Considering that they now have evidence and a serious witness (the singer) that there was collusion between red and black, and that from the camera, the grenade were evidently shot from the red area, there is enough to get all of the red shirts leaders labelled with terrorism and propose the death penalty...

I don't think Anupong now needs to threaten to disperse with force, he has serious bargain chips in hand worth any money Thaksin could offer... he can easily broker a deal to let them live if they stop all this nonsense...

There might be a real way out of this without more loss of life

[Gambles]

While what you saying makes total sense, his behavior right now does not make any sense at all.

Considering that they now have evidence and a serious witness (the singer) that there was collusion between red and black, and that from the camera, the grenade were evidently shot from the red area, there is enough to get all of the red shirts leaders labelled with terrorism and propose the death penalty...

I don't think Anupong now needs to threaten to disperse with force, he has serious bargain chips in hand worth any money Thaksin could offer... he can easily broker a deal to let them live if they stop all this nonsense...

There might be a real way out of this without more loss of life

I know absolutely nothing about this like all the other posters on here but botn sides seem closer to a deal than we have been for some time....

[Skywalker69]

How does this improve the situation? So they are JUST GONNA let the red shirts n yellow shirts kill each other?

Ban shirts, everybody should walk halfnaked!

[Skywalker69]

So if there are elections in 90 days (as proposed by the reds), does that mean the PTP will be banned for electoral fraud in about 12 months?

Bet you´r right.

[Skywalker69]

So now the reds are saying "Give in to our demands, and then we'll negotiate."

What is there to negotiate once the house is dissolved?

Abhisit has already agreed to dissolve the house. The talks fell down over the timing of dissolution.

Three months is reasonable. Then there is no negotiation just an election. And a standoff by all sides in the mean time.

And the fixing of the constitution? Everyone says it needs to be fixed. Even the reds complained about how it affects their election chances.

Abhisit has put forward that ALL groups be involved in fixing it and then putting it to a referendum - before elections.

Personally, I've always felt that Abhisit is a fundamentally decent person in among a gang of shysters.

Your right he is , would be a nightmare to se the big Mr.T back in buisness

[tgw]

If Mr. T is back in business it will be "Bangkok Dangerous" - but please send someone else than Nicholas Cage.

[brahmburgers]

Anupong paints himself in to a corner by announcing what he won't do (use strong measures).

A general should keep all his options available.

It smells like a behind-the-scenes deal, perhaps a cushy offer by the Red shirts' paymaster/puppetmaster.

I'm for peace and resolution, but I also see the Reds for what they are, or at least who and what they tolerate withing their ranks: combat trained people in disguise who are in possession of serious weaponry and who are ready & willing to use those weapons in a split second.

The Reds are like a wolf who sometimes puts on sheep's clothing, and sometimes puts on drunken dragon clothing - yet Anupong sees only sheep's clothing. Get ready to be bitten sir.

Edited April 23, 2010 by brahmburgers

[LuckyLew]

Abhisit looks incompetent, Anupong looks like he is in charge. Abhisit could not broker an agreement in one month and two negotiation sessions. Anupong says no killing and everyone stops? Sounds fishy too me. Sounds like Anupong cut this deal on the side with the red shirts. Makes Abhisit look lame.

Anyway, the Democrats are out of it with dissolution either for violating campaign regulations, or through vote. It's not over yet, but people get what they want at the expense of..... THE TAXPAYERS and the DEAD!!!!!

Abhisits looks incompetent?

You should be saying thank you to him!!!

IMHO if there was a less a person in charge

the reds would have been dispersed already

The reds are very lucky the ultimate crackdown

has not come ..... yet.

The gorvernment cannot call elections based on red

shirt terms,. if they do it means that protests and mob

rule and mahem rule the future ... You cannot in any

civilized country bow tro the pressures of this sort of

tactic. If you do, there will be no peaceful future.

If you bow and call elections then the protestors want,

they have exxential won.

Then no matter who wins the next election, there is sure

to be more protests as soon as an ooposing group feels

disenfranchized form the government.

[vicco]

Abhisit looks incompetent, Anupong looks like he is in charge. Abhisit could not broker an agreement in one month and two negotiation sessions. Anupong says no killing and everyone stops? Sounds fishy too me. Sounds like Anupong cut this deal on the side with the red shirts. Makes Abhisit look lame.

Anyway, the Democrats are out of it with dissolution either for violating campaign regulations, or through vote. It's not over yet, but people get what they want at the expense of..... THE TAXPAYERS and the DEAD!!!!!

What makes me wonder is why yesterday Anupong issued final warning, and today he is issuing no crack down orders.

Made a deal? got a payment? sudden attack of morality?

Innocent dead bodies on the streets of Bangkok can have a sobering effect.

Anupong is a watermelon - green on the outside, RED on the inside.... I think he is being PAID by THAKSIN not to crack down... he has been order to disperse the protesters.... he has DIRECTLY DEFIED the orders from the Prime Minister.

I think he should either be fired, or made Prime Minister!!!

Prime Minister Anupong....

Misunderstanding of how things work I think. The PM transferred responsibility to Anupong. (Ie: Gen Anupong, will you kindly go and sort out this fuc_king mess because nobody else around here seems to be able to do anything) No direct orders about how to do it....that's not how it works. The PM has now to some extent distanced himself from whatever happens and the General has the green light to make decisions about the actions to be taken. The General not wanting to go down in history as the guy responsible for a blood bath any more that the PM....tries to make a deal with the reds....lets just go through some posturing for a bit...we can chat to the PM...and I'm sure we can make a deal. (In the meantime talks are likely already underway behind all the political theater) There is possible compromise from both sides....I believe there has been for some time but they have to go through all the right circumlocutions first so nobody is seen to be really backing down or losing face.

Virtually all conflicts end with some kind of negotiated settlement in the end...........what else is there? You can't shoot everybody.

[RussellHantz]

Anupong paints himself in to a corner by announcing what he won't do (use strong measures).

A general should keep all his options available.

Wrong.

A general should cross out those options that are counterproductive to his objectives.

[tijnebijn]

Well if the red shirts will accept a 90-day dissolution to end this chaos, then Abhisit should go for it.

Seems very reasonable

Agreed. Seems like a decent compromise

actually 9-months was a good compromise and that was offered almost 2-months ago. Not only that ...because the Reds refuse to negotiate we are left to only inturpret their demands such as ...

Reds leader Veera Musikapong said they were open to elections in three months as a way out of the crippling deadlock -- a step back from their original demand for immediate polls. "But the government has to stop threatening people and show responsibility for what has happened," he said.

... do we know if Abhsit still must also leave the country immediately?

And if the Reds can be believed this should all be over in a few more weeks when the leaders turn themselves in to police as promised.

Nine months will be impossible , the fact is what it is all about is to have elections before Anupong retires .

The first and most biggest problem imo is that everything is at stake to have the next hardline elitist army commander not

to come into power .

It seems many army brass agree with that and Anupong seems not to mind it at all as well .

One side wants to prevent it , the other is to stay into power so Ocha can come into power , .

Its just so easy , the direction of the country depends on it .

[Ritzo]

Well if the red shirts will accept a 90-day dissolution to end this chaos, then Abhisit should go for it.

Seems very reasonable

Not sure I agree. WHY are the red rabble suddenly under the impression they can dictate the terms to the Thai Government ? Abhisit may be indecisive, but surely not stupid enough to be pushed around by protesters.

[chadintheusa]

Abhisit looks incompetent, Anupong looks like he is in charge. Abhisit could not broker an agreement in one month and two negotiation sessions. Anupong says no killing and everyone stops? Sounds fishy too me. Sounds like Anupong cut this deal on the side with the red shirts. Makes Abhisit look lame.

Anyway, the Democrats are out of it with dissolution either for violating campaign regulations, or through vote. It's not over yet, but people get what they want at the expense of..... THE TAXPAYERS and the DEAD!!!!!

What makes me wonder is why yesterday Anupong issued final warning, and today he is issuing no crack down orders.

Made a deal? got a payment? sudden attack of morality?

Red shirts want the elections to be finished within 90 days so that they can name Anupong's replacement and have the army in their pocket. The democrats want the election later so that they can appoint a general friendly to them. The longer the protests go, the lower the chance that the Reds can get the elections finished on time. Anupong is probably afraid that if he disperses the protests and then the Reds win the next election he might fight himself in prison. He is only acting out of self interest at this point. Is there anyone with the nation's interest ahead of their own?

[LuckyFive8888]

Well if the red shirts will accept a 90-day dissolution to end this chaos, then Abhisit should go for it.

Seems very reasonable

Not sure I agree. WHY are the red rabble suddenly under the impression they can dictate the terms to the Thai Government ? Abhisit may be indecisive, but surely not stupid enough to be pushed around by protesters.

right, but aphisit is just one man the government is the whole parliament and the people. i agree with the election but the decision is not for aphisit alone to make.

[Thailand]

Abhisit has put forward that ALL groups be involved in fixing it and then putting it to a referendum - before elections.

Yes I did notice that delaying tactic. The contents of the constitution should be part of the debate that takes place during the electioneering process, and the winners of the election then will have a mandate to set the framework of the new constitution which would then be put to the referendum. A much more democratic process.

Far too sensible a solution.

[rabo]

Abhisit looks incompetent, Anupong looks like he is in charge. Abhisit could not broker an agreement in one month and two negotiation sessions. Anupong says no killing and everyone stops? Sounds fishy too me. Sounds like Anupong cut this deal on the side with the red shirts. Makes Abhisit look lame.

Anyway, the Democrats are out of it with dissolution either for violating campaign regulations, or through vote. It's not over yet, but people get what they want at the expense of..... THE TAXPAYERS and the DEAD!!!!!

What makes me wonder is why yesterday Anupong issued final warning, and today he is issuing no crack down orders.

Made a deal? got a payment? sudden attack of morality?

Red shirts want the elections to be finished within 90 days so that they can name Anupong's replacement and have the army in their pocket. The democrats want the election later so that they can appoint a general friendly to them. The longer the protests go, the lower the chance that the Reds can get the elections finished on time. Anupong is probably afraid that if he disperses the protests and then the Reds win the next election he might fight himself in prison. He is only acting out of self interest at this point. Is there anyone with the nation's interest ahead of their own?

After saying that he would not use force to solve the problems and that violence would not be tolerated

Anupong stated that ultimately the Army will protect the Monarchy.

The Army assessment released also stated clearly that the problems were caused by a "concerted effort to grab power and to attack the Monarchy".

Anupong has simply stated that he will do his sworn duty. Don't count on him joining in conspiracy.

Edited April 24, 2010 by rabo

[tijnebijn]

Abhisit looks incompetent, Anupong looks like he is in charge. Abhisit could not broker an agreement in one month and two negotiation sessions. Anupong says no killing and everyone stops? Sounds fishy too me. Sounds like Anupong cut this deal on the side with the red shirts. Makes Abhisit look lame.

Anyway, the Democrats are out of it with dissolution either for violating campaign regulations, or through vote. It's not over yet, but people get what they want at the expense of..... THE TAXPAYERS and the DEAD!!!!!

What makes me wonder is why yesterday Anupong issued final warning, and today he is issuing no crack down orders.

Made a deal? got a payment? sudden attack of morality?

Red shirts want the elections to be finished within 90 days so that they can name Anupong's replacement and have the army in their pocket. The democrats want the election later so that they can appoint a general friendly to them. The longer the protests go, the lower the chance that the Reds can get the elections finished on time. Anupong is probably afraid that if he disperses the protests and then the Reds win the next election he might fight himself in prison. He is only acting out of self interest at this point. Is there anyone with the nation's interest ahead of their own?

Don't think he worries for going into prison.

The question is does he favor Ocha to succeed him , he seems a bit reluctant , for the rest of your post I agree .

Anupong knows very well which sticking points there are , my guess is that he knows he don't want to to be any part of that ,

and probably knows the next in line only will worsen things , Anupong is in a very difficult position and pushed into , he is

by far the smartest of them all , very well done , leaving the difficulties back where they belong , the politicians .

[TallForeigner]

Abhisit may be indecisive, but surely not stupid enough to be pushed around by protesters.

In reality I see nearly no room left for his administration to maneuver. The current pressure is unprecedented. Must be hard to face the reality:

- The commander-in-chief of the army has decided not to follow orders involving a forceful crackdown; a big part if not the majority of the soldiers are sympathizers of the Red Shirts; they are watermelons

- The big majority of the police force are "tomatoes" or red from skin to core...they will not use force against the reds even if ordered by government

- The ruling democrat party is under real threat to be dissolved within the next few months; the EC dissolution ruling is being handed over to the judiciary

- International community is strongly opposing any violent crackdown

- The big powerful businesses in Thailand don't want this conflict to drag on. It's now clear to them that the government cannot solve the conflict with police or army force. They have no choice than to push for a quick political solution. They certainly don't want it to drag on for let's say 9 months...

What options do Abhisit and his administration including their masters now really have left other than to accept a compromise negotiated with the red leaders? Looks like the current development have got them pushed into a corner.

[blackman]

remember this recent headline?

http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/44954.cfm

''Natthawut Saikuea, leader of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), told a press conference that he believed that in the next four or five days there would be an attempt to charge that UDD protesters are connected with terrorists after the Centre for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation (CRES) had shown video clips on the bloody violence.''

''Top UDD leaders will take responsibility if it is proven that they are connected with the terrorists, said Mr Natthawut''

does anyone else think that Nuttawut is trying to dilute some bad news that he knows is imminent?

why would you insert a 'we are 100% NOT guilty unless you can prove we are guilty' clause ?

and now.....

DSI says Methee 'implicated others'

By The Nation

Prominent red shirt Methee Amornwuthikul has implicated other people involved in the bloody April 10 clash with soldiers, the Department of Special Investigation said yesterday.

"He has named names," said director general Tharit Pengdit.

BANGKOK: -- Methee, a former actor, was arrested on Thursday morning for possessing military weapons belonging to the government. A machine gun belonging to the Army in his vehicle at the time of his arrest.

"He said he was keeping the weapon for future use," Tharit said. "He admitted he had also distributed other such weapons to his comrades."

The April 10 clash left 25 dead and more than 800 injured. Both sides suffered casualties, and afterwards the Army found many of its weapons went missing.

Tharit said Methee had planned to fight to the death if the government did not heed the demands of the Democratic Alliance of Democracy against Dictatorship (DAAD).

Since March 12, the DAAD and its redshirt supporters have demanded that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva quickly dissolve the House of Representatives.

Although Abhisit offered to dissolve the House in nine months, redshirt leaders refused to end their rally and ignored the government's call for further talks.

Instead, they led their supporters to the Rajprasong intersection, where the redshirt rally has since forced many businesses in the area, including big shopping malls and fivestar hotels, to shut down temporarily.

Tharit said Methee admitted to being on the front line when the red shirts clashed with soldiers on April 10.

"He did not identify himself as one of the 'men in black' but told us who those men were and admitted the order to shoot came from the redshirt side during the clash," Tharit said.

He said Methee claimed the number of men in black was quite high, but declined to give a specific number.

Video clips of the April 10 incident, as presented by the government, show heavily armed men in black mingling with the redshirt crowd. The government has called them "terrorists".

Tharit said Methee could face the death penalty if convicted of taking heavy war weapons away from soldiers.

He said Methee, who remains in custody, had also provided many other pieces of crucial information.

"He attended daily meetings with key redshirt members for planning. He named the venue of the meeting. It's near the Rajprasong intersection," Tharit said.

During a televisionpool programme, Tharit explained the DSI had now taken charge of cases relating to terrorism, threats against the authorities, attacks on people and illegal handling of the Army's war weapons.

This is why Methee's case falls under the its jurisdiction.

He said the DSI would work closely with other relevant agencies in such cases, including the National Police, the National Intelligence Agency and the National Security Council.

Since Methee's arrest, redshirt leaders in the Rajprasong area have tried to distance themselves from him.

"He's only declared himself as an ally. He does not follow our orders. He's acted independently.

It's just that when he showed up, he attended our activities. We don't know what he's done elsewhere," said Natthawut Saikua, another redshirt leader.

-- The Nation 2010-04-24

and now they are implicated as terrorists, with charges that carry the death penalty, now they want to negotiate?.......give me a break!

[ivowatson]

Well if the red shirts will accept a 90-day dissolution to end this chaos, then Abhisit should go for it.

Seems very reasonable

Agreed. Seems like a decent compromise

What are you talking about? You think it's okay to negotiate with terrorists?

And don't forget the multi colored group wants elections as planned at the end of 2011!

Edited April 24, 2010 by ivowatson

[TheItaliann]

The army declares a crackdown. The Red Shirts say no thanks, taste these grenades. Crackdown over.

The PAD protesters say that they are going to evict the Red shirts themselves. They get grenades thrown at them. They decide they are no longer interested in dispersing the protesters.

Rofl.

[ivowatson]

The army declares a crackdown. The Red Shirts say no thanks, taste these grenades. Crackdown over.

The PAD protesters say that they are going to evict the Red shirts themselves. They get grenades thrown at them. They decide they are no longer interested in dispersing the protesters.

Rofl.

The government decides to give in to the terrorists and dissolve the house in, say, 3 months.

The next week there will be 1.000.000 people in bkk protesting this decision and staying put until the government cancels this lunacy.

[rabo]

remember this recent headline?

http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/44954.cfm

''Natthawut Saikuea, leader of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), told a press conference that he believed that in the next four or five days there would be an attempt to charge that UDD protesters are connected with terrorists after the Centre for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation (CRES) had shown video clips on the bloody violence.''

''Top UDD leaders will take responsibility if it is proven that they are connected with the terrorists, said Mr Natthawut''

does anyone else think that Nuttawut is trying to dilute some bad news that he knows is imminent?

why would you insert a 'we are 100% NOT guilty unless you can prove we are guilty' clause ?

and now.....

DSI says Methee 'implicated others'

By The Nation

Prominent red shirt Methee Amornwuthikul has implicated other people involved in the bloody April 10 clash with soldiers, the Department of Special Investigation said yesterday.

"He has named names," said director general Tharit Pengdit.

and now they are implicated as terrorists, with charges that carry the death penalty, now they want to negotiate?.......give me a break!

Blackman, this is your scenario, lets see where it leads to.

When criminals are caught in Thailand, they often make full confessions including crime scene re-enactments. It's well known that lying results in more severe penalties.

What they really need to do is trace the money trail back to Mr. Thaksin.

Edited April 24, 2010 by rabo

[ChiangMaiFun]

Well if the red shirts will accept a 90-day dissolution to end this chaos, then Abhisit should go for it.

Seems very reasonable

Abhisit should accept - show leadership - compromise now and save a little face - if he doesn't accept it is totally without reason and common sense.

[geriatrickid]

Fortunately, the people on the government side of things do not take their advice from the simplistic bloodlusting self appointed experts of Thai Visa.

"The use of force will not end the current problems and would have many repercussions,"

- General Anupong Paojinda at a meeting of military commanders according to deputy spokesman Colonel Sirichan Ngathong.

"The best thing is to create understanding among the people. The army's job now is to take care of the people, and not allow Thais to attack each other."

- General Anupong Paojindaupong

AFP also reports that the General stated to its reporter that he aimed to end the stand-off without further bloodshed, saying the authorities "can uphold the law with no people dead or injured".

The Redshirts and the General will try to find a way to end this peacefully. If the Redshirts obtain a way to exit without a loss of face, they will have emerged with an important political victory: The end of the Abhisit government. If the General pulls this off he will rbe seen as the man that restored the military's reputation as the defender of the realm. A settlement virtually guarantees that no politician in the forseeable future would dare interfere with the military's place in Thai society. The people will not allow the institution that kept the country from civil war to be harmed.

That is what is at stake.

The people most worried now might be those in a turf warf war with the UDD and the military for access to the public trough. I anticipate that other groups will attempt to delay the settlement and to provoke the Redshirts and the military. With peace, the Reds will have cemented their core support group and the military restored its credibility. The opposing factions cannot have these two groups in strong negotiating positions.

[rabo]

Well if the red shirts will accept a 90-day dissolution to end this chaos, then Abhisit should go for it.

Seems very reasonable

Abhisit should accept - show leadership - compromise now and save a little face - if he doesn't accept it is totally without reason and common sense.

Common sense would be to protect the Kingdom from overthrow by armed totalitarian forces.

[Mosha]

These red shirts that are in the negotiations. Are they the same red shirts who face terrorism charges etc.. etc..?