Worsening Crisis Pushes Thailand Towards Anarchy

[OzMick]

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

This obviously affects you deeply, but you can't discuss politics with thais, which is probably just as well. But tell me, do you use your wider experience of the world and your insight to their problems to actually do something to assist them?

It need not require much financial input. Perhaps a little career advice, such as pointing out there are many occupations with less work and more reward. or a micro-loan or two, helping someone to set up a small business.

If you can't stand to see them slaving, but aren't prepared to offer assistance, perhaps you buy a darker pair of sunglasses.

[dhrobertson]

I repeat as one example the policy than we have done in my Country for solving the problem of farmers (50% in the 50's and now around 5%0

1- A minister is created for Town and Country planning

2- Important investments are done for supporting development of infrastructures (railways, highways, irrigation, industrial hubs, domestic airline subsidised)

3- Decentralisation of industries whenever possible with taxes incentives and hub policy for creating jobs throughout the territory: the aim is to stabilise the population throughout the Country and to avoid Bangkok suburbs to become gigantic

4- decentralisation of Administration and democracy with elected Governors and local assemblies for managing locally the developpement (better decisions and surveillance locally than when everything is done in Bangkok)

5- agriculture modernised through a wide policy (regrouping of farmers in cooperatives, subsidies until the Agriculture is at International standard, specific banking support). important investments like irrigation, researches.... under schemes developped with Academics (Agriculture Universities).

6- Until the Agriculture is reaching an International Standards rice, rubber... prices supported and subsidised. (like european and US farmers)

7. Education for all and quality guaranteed throughout the territory

8- Immediately a budget equivalent to Ministry of defence one is allocated for supporting this policy.

this is a frame for discussions, I may have forgotten some details

Excellent!

Are you French by chance? You must be from somewhere civilised!

Now, who is most likely to implement such things? The Democrats? the reds? Chart Thai Pattana?

As I've stated before, I think it will take two generations to sort things out. But it is possible.

I think it is most urgent to take action to try and make elections fair:-

1) No gerrymandering

2) Voting to be entirely confidential,

3) parties MUST publish manifestos

4) Voting buying to punished by severe prison term and life long ban from being an MP.

5) Get rid of the laughable requirement for MPs to have a degree (easily obtainable in Khao San Rd I suspect)

Response from reds? What do YOU want?

Thaksin had 6-years to start or implement these things. And do you think the reds are too stupid to know what is good for them? They are not asking for any of these things or have eluded to wanting anything of these things in their year+ aggressions.

So, again, WHAT DO THE REDS REALLY WANT PRECISELY?

I agree, I have not heard any of the above points alluded to?

So, come on red shirt supporters, elighten us as to what policies you think shoulod be implemented.

Can we not achieve some form of Farang consensus of policies required to be implemented by an incoming government?

[Jerrytheyoung]

I think everyone is aware that Ab suggested a 50 percent debt moratorium for farmers. I have a sneaking suspicion that Thaksin has secretly promised the protesters that they will receive a one hundred percent debt moratorium. Would not surprise me in the least.

Any such thing would need to get covered from the budget, which in turn comes from the taxes, which are paid by the very people that the redshirts are either holding hostage in Bangkok or roadblocks around the country, or are sitting at home jobless after their businesses evaporated from the month long siege.

yes Bangkokian can pay taxes because they make a lot of wealth compared to Issaners: and how they get this money: in exploiting girls and boys from Issan in their factories, as sellers in their shops or worse in the massage parlour and in the bars...

But most of the Budget is spend in Mega projects for Bangkok super development and MoD gadgets

[cdnmatt]

The PAD benefited from a coup in 2006, and in 2008 they were able to persuade the courts to change the democratically elected government to an engineered one in just 9 days by besieging an airport. The Reds don't want another coup and they don't want the courts to engineer another government. That's why they are protesting! The Reds want fresh elections and they will remain on the streets until they achieve this goal.

Unlike the Yellows who don't mind a coup or a rearrangement of parliamentary seats to favour them, the Reds just want fair elections where the MPs elected are representative of the people of the whole country. Why is this concept so difficult for the pro-government Yellows to understand?

You know, when this whole ordeal began, I actually felt for the red shirts plight, as their demands seemed very legitimate and reasonable. However, in my eyes, over the past several weeks they have completely discredited themselves, and have proven they are not willing to have rational discussions and debate. They want blood, and they want power, nothing less.

Just look at how they've conducted themselves. These aren't people who want rational dialogue and discourse. Considering their actions and speeches, how can the red shirt leaders ever believe they deserve respect from the Thai populous, let alone being able to dictate the governance of this country, which is what they want. Shame on them for acting in such immature and malicious ways. The city of Bangkok can't even collect garbage from the protest site anymore, because their trucks are getting seized.

Edited April 27, 2010 by cdnmatt

[KireB]

Well because the reds on here flash the airport thing whenever they run out of excuses for the current situation. surely you can recognize?

The besiege of Suvarnabhumi Airport IS relevant here because it shows the double standards in place with regards to each side protesting about opposition governments, coups, elections, corruption etc. The Yellows are once again distracting from the main issues, of course. :-(

How does the airport closure show double standards in regards to the coup, elections and or corruption? Absolute <deleted>! You want to discuss double standards? Lets start with your main man Thaksin who has commited crimes against humanity and got away with it!

[bangkoklight]

And then why do you constantly bring in the airport takeover - according to your logic, that would have nothing to do with the Red anarchy going on now.

LOL! I give up with these pro-government Yellows, I really do. Bless their little minds.

So, it's funny how Abhisit had milk and cornflakes, and egg on toast for breakfast this morning, isn't it? That's how much he represents Thai people! What about his Khao Dtom? Double standards or what!

[Netfan]

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

This obviously affects you deeply, but you can't discuss politics with thais, which is probably just as well. But tell me, do you use your wider experience of the world and your insight to their problems to actually do something to assist them?

It need not require much financial input. Perhaps a little career advice, such as pointing out there are many occupations with less work and more reward. or a micro-loan or two, helping someone to set up a small business.

If you can't stand to see them slaving, but aren't prepared to offer assistance, perhaps you buy a darker pair of sunglasses.

And go talk to the local "middle-men" and village headmen who control what goes to the market place and the price the farmers are paid. They exert far more control over the plight of the farmers than any "elite" in Bangkok. Just make sure your life insurance is paid up.

[pimay11]

Thaksin ordered killing of thousands of innocent people yet never got prosecuted for it. Does this give Abhisit automatic right to kill all the redshirted protesters? Afterall Thaksin did it.

How stupid can this "double standard" discussion get?

Thaksin ordered the killing of these people who were believed to be drug runners. It has nothing to do with what's happening now. Why bring this into the debate?

"thaksin ordered the killing of thousands of innocent people..."??????????????

is there an archive where we can research on this killings???????????

"thousands ", eh?

and, "all innocents" , too

holy toledo, oh jesus, oh budhha, oh-my-god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

where is the the records, photographs, evidence, wwitnesses,etc.etc.

sealy did you just arrive in Thailand last week?

[jcbangkok]

Thaksin had 6-years to start or implement these things. And do you think the reds are too stupid to know what is good for them? They are not asking for any of these things or have eluded to wanting anything of these things in their year+ aggressions.

This is the traditional way of yellow shirt/democrat reply...not very constructive.

1- I am not a Thaksinist

2- Thaksin is the past, you have to update your clock

3- When you enter in a government, you take over whatever is the situation. 16 months after Abhisit is in Power: he has full responsability. He should have assessed the situation and implemented the solutions. We used to say 100 days for starting a new policy, 6 months to start implementation. We should be in the first year of this new policy.....

4- To be Minister is to be at the service of his Nation, not only to get a nice salary, honours and have his picture everywhere (Even if you are nice looking).

Abhisit = 16 months = insuficient results= partisan leadership, ignoring 42% of the polpulation, focusing only on Bankokian Upper/Midddle Class

Free education, free school supplies, free healthcare, cash handouts to the poor, increased payments to the elderly, exemption from taxes for almost anything related to farming, guaranteed subsidies, guaranteed prices for rice production .... all this while pulling the economy out of the tank, a war in the south and a never ending violent and distruptive behaviors from Thaksin supporters bent on derailing the gov't and any success they have.

Please excuse my prior sarcasm as i thought it would be clear what i meant but he bottom line is these are not the things the red mob want. It is so far away from what they want that I personally believe your post is off topic. However, I do agree with your thoughts that more needs to be done to increase the opportunities for all in Thailand to allow those willing to work hard to prosper much more.

[MacWalen]

They will figure it out sooner or later hopefully. There will be a tipping point. Politicians and army, it is a classical example of being afraid of responsibility. I do not mind peaceful demonstrations but what is going on now is simply wrong.

[Jerrytheyoung]

So, again, WHAT DO THE REDS REALLY WANT PRECISELY?

I agree, I have not heard any of the above points alluded to?

So, come on red shirt supporters, elighten us as to what policies you think shoulod be implemented.

Can we not achieve some form of Farang consensus of policies required to be implemented by an incoming government?

Again, i confirm some people in the Chavalit entourage told me my ideas are quite close from Chavalit ones. (However i am not a member of his entourage)

[dhrobertson]

Excellent!

Are you French by chance? You must be from somewhere civilised!

Now, who is most likely to implement such things? The Democrats? the reds? Chart Thai Pattana?

As I've stated before, I think it will take two generations to sort things out. But it is possible.

I think it is most urgent to take action to try and make elections fair:-

1) No gerrymandering

2) Voting to be entirely confidential,

3) parties MUST publish manifestos

4) Voting buying to punished by severe prison term and life long ban from being an MP.

5) Get rid of the laughable requirement for MPs to have a degree (easily obtainable in Khao San Rd I suspect)

Response from reds? What do YOU want?

I have personnally meet general Chavalit few times, I do know that in 1997 he has been trapped by his Ministry of Finances and I do know that he is a man taking on him the errors of his subordinates.

Some people from his entourage told me that my ideas were quite close from Chavalit ones.

I will add for elections; candidates must present their campaign budget which has to be limited in order to permit poor people to be elected. Also part of the budget reimbursed if the Candidate reaches 5% of votes.

Interesting! Please can you enlighten me as to Chavalit history? What is his involvement today? Thanks

[RussellHantz]

Thaksin ordered killing of thousands of innocent people yet never got prosecuted for it. Does this give Abhisit automatic right to kill all the redshirted protesters? Afterall Thaksin did it.

How stupid can this "double standard" discussion get?

Thaksin ordered the killing of these people who were believed to be drug runners. It has nothing to do with what's happening now. Why bring this into the debate?

"thaksin ordered the killing of thousands of innocent people..."??????????????

is there an archive where we can research on this killings???????????

"thousands ", eh?

and, "all innocents" , too

holy toledo, oh jesus, oh budhha, oh-my-god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

where is the the records, photographs, evidence, wwitnesses,etc.etc.

sealy did you just arrive in Thailand last week?

Maybe he has yet to be brainwashed by the anti-thaksin propaganda machine, unlike a fair few posters on here who are seeminly incurable.

[KKvampire]

Thaksin had 6-years to start or implement these things. And do you think the reds are too stupid to know what is good for them? They are not asking for any of these things or have eluded to wanting anything of these things in their year+ aggressions.

This is the traditional way of yellow shirt/democrat reply...not very constructive.

1- I am not a Thaksinist

2- Thaksin is the past, you have to update your clock

3- When you enter in a government, you take over whatever is the situation. 16 months after Abhisit is in Power: he has full responsability. He should have assessed the situation and implemented the solutions. We used to say 100 days for starting a new policy, 6 months to start implementation. We should be in the first year of this new policy.....

4- To be Minister is to be at the service of his Nation, not only to get a nice salary, honours and have his picture everywhere (Even if you are nice looking).

Abhisit = 16 months = insuficient results= partisan leadership, ignoring 42% of the polpulation, focusing only on Bankokian Upper/Midddle Class

O dear. go and have a chat with your corrupt governor and local government, Ask him where the money is? Doubt you get an honest answer

[Netfan]

And then why do you constantly bring in the airport takeover - according to your logic, that would have nothing to do with the Red anarchy going on now.

LOL! I give up with these pro-government Yellows, I really do. Bless their little minds.

So, it's funny how Abhisit had milk and cornflakes, and egg on toast for breakfast this morning, isn't it? That's how much he represents Thai people! What about his Khao Dtom? Double standards or what!

Where did Thaksin sleep last night? What about Jatuporn, Arisman, Weng, Veera? Chavolit? Chalerm? I missed the video of them camping on the street. And the photos of their small farms. They represent the average Red? Or average Thai? Now that's funny.

[dobadoy]

Tomorrow the terrorist insurgents are sending out 'mobile units' to 'tell' the Bangkok people about the reds policies.

I think the grenades on the skytrain last week, and the halting of it today, and the many 'stop and search' operations performed by reds who now think they are the law are fairly clear what they are all about, but we will of course see denial denial denial, and where that fails we will see excuse excuse excuse. I hope the Bangkok people make their feelings known to these criminals.

More importantly, I hope the security forces take this opportunity 1. to arrest all units and/or 2. remove the remaining traitors from Rachaprasong, and 3. show some balls as to who is actually running this country.

I can't stand another day of Suthep's empty words.

Edited April 27, 2010 by dobadoy

[sealy]

When a political group is up against double standards, does it not make you wonder why some members of that group become so-called thugs? If you were passionate about free and fair elections and the return of the People's Constitution, would you sit down in a circle and sing songs? Come on!

And are the army thugs too? Why not? You cannot say they represent a democratically elected government. The army represent the remnants of a military coup and a constitution drawn up by the military!

So you are saying that its ok to become a thug because you've been down trodden... really?? is that what you are really advocating???

are you saying then that only the rich can be thugs and all poors have to be saints and all the rich robber barons can carry on as they have been , i.e. rich robber-barrons????????????????? .

[OzMick]

I'll call your bluff! elections are called in 90 days as per red's demand. Due to an absence of volunteers, my gf puts herself forward as a democrat candidate for any electorate in Isaan. Which would you recommend? She really would prefer not to be harassed/attacked/killed.

"Thais just want their democracy back" If opposition candidates cannot campaign, they don't have a democracy. by definition, they have a totalatarian (spelling?) state. The only way to get their democracy back is to stop the thuggery and intimidation.

Your avatar depicts an ultra-violent sadist, rapist and murderer. someone to look up to?

The fact that the Democrats are unpopular in Isan could be on account of the fact that successive Democrat led governments have done absolutely nothing to improve the lot of the average Isan voter. Hence, your girlfriend may not get elected, and may well not be popular, given that the Democrats stole the seat from the leader that the Isan people did rightfully elect. Analogous to the reception that your girlfriend would likely receive is if a far-right fascist ran for election in a Jewish suburb in the western world.

It follows from the above that if the Democrat party changed and represented the wishes of the average Isaner in the same way that Thaksin's lot helped them, your girlfrriend would get elected to parliament.

That's the way that democracy works. It represents the way people feel and the qualities that they want to see represented in their leaders. Smug elitists like Abhisit do nothing for your average (i.e. not only bangkok) Thai. He couldn't care less about them, has misjudged them as irrelevant, and is now paying for that mistake with his career.

Your analogy is ludicrous. Yes a fascist in a jewish suburb may not be popular but he wouldn't fear for his life, and would have police protection if things turned ugly. Why would a "stolen seat" argument apply during an election, the solution to that same argument? the democrats are doing good things in Isaan, and their candidates have the right to point that out, even if they don't get elected. THAT is how democracy works.

you neglected to respond as to your choice of avatar. Perhaps you should check the meaning of the word in a dictionary.

[rabo]

Thaksin ordered killing of thousands of innocent people yet never got prosecuted for it. Does this give Abhisit automatic right to kill all the redshirted protesters? Afterall Thaksin did it.

How stupid can this "double standard" discussion get?

Thaksin ordered the killing of these people who were believed to be drug runners. It has nothing to do with what's happening now. Why bring this into the debate?

WOW, WOW....... WOW!!!!! You are saying that orders to kill thousands of relatively poor Thai citizens, without proof, with out evidence, without any legal representation for a crime that does not carry the death penalty is OK, no problem?? Mai-pen-rai???

Ordered by the man who is now behind the violence, killing, and sabotage of the countries infrastructure. This is OK, not related?

WOW. bangkoklightsout

Edited April 27, 2010 by rabo

[dick turpin]

OK, have had my cornflakes

Now its off to tesco lotus to see if they have any sugar this week.

And if johnny red has got any ideas about stopping me he will

soon fine he is sporting a fine set of vigo tyre prints

[jcbangkok]

Thaksin ordered killing of thousands of innocent people yet never got prosecuted for it. Does this give Abhisit automatic right to kill all the redshirted protesters? Afterall Thaksin did it.

How stupid can this "double standard" discussion get?

Thaksin ordered the killing of these people who were believed to be drug runners. It has nothing to do with what's happening now. Why bring this into the debate?

"thaksin ordered the killing of thousands of innocent people..."??????????????

is there an archive where we can research on this killings???????????

"thousands ", eh?

and, "all innocents" , too

holy toledo, oh jesus, oh budhha, oh-my-god!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

where is the the records, photographs, evidence, wwitnesses,etc.etc.

Ongoing Impunity from Thaksin's War on Drugs

In August 2007 the government appointed a special committee chaired by former Attorney General Khanit na Nakhon, to investigate approximately 2,500 extrajudicial killings that took place in 2003 as part of Thaksin's "war on drugs." Nevertheless, it remains unclear whether the new investigations will lead to effective criminal prosecution of the perpetrators, who are believed to include senior police officers and members of the former Thaksin administration.

There are tons of news articles, picture and videos all over the net for anyone who wants to be better informed.

[dhrobertson]

So be precise. Tell us what policies you would like to see such that poor farmers can do better? Look ahead, if you get a red led government what do you want see them do? Please don't say you want another village handout. If your village is the same as mine then you will know that was massively abused with most money going to pay off gambling debts at usurious interest rates. Not many new tractors were funded or vocational training fees paid.........

I repeat as one example the policy than we have done in my Country for solving the problem of farmers (50% in the 50's and now around 5%0

1- A minister is created for Town and Country planning

2- Important investments are done for supporting development of infrastructures (railways, highways, irrigation, industrial hubs, domestic airline subsidised)

3- Decentralisation of industries whenever possible with taxes incentives and hub policy for creating jobs throughout the territory: the aim is to stabilise the population throughout the Country and to avoid Bangkok suburbs to become gigantic

4- decentralisation of Administration and democracy with elected Governors and local assemblies for managing locally the developpement (better decisions and surveillance locally than when everything is done in Bangkok)

5- agriculture modernised through a wide policy (regrouping of farmers in cooperatives, subsidies until the Agriculture is at International standard, specific banking support). important investments like irrigation, researches.... under schemes developped with Academics (Agriculture Universities).

6- Until the Agriculture is reaching an International Standards rice, rubber... prices supported and subsidised. (like european and US farmers)

7. Education for all and quality guaranteed throughout the territory

8- Immediately a budget equivalent to Ministry of defence one is allocated for supporting this policy.

this is a frame for discussions, I may have forgotten some details

Interesting a few comments:

With decentralisation the power of the local lords needs to be broken or they will just cream off huge percentages of budgets as they do now. Bangkok could quadruple the amount sent to areas but if that was creamed and the people told BKK never sends money, which to some extent happens now, then it gioes nowhere. Education is the key but is a long term solution. Thailand is still very very feudal and mostly so in rural areas where certain families control everything. I dont know how to deal with that problem to be honest but unless it is diappeared thing swill be very very hard to change. Education over a long period. A lot of the rest I agree with

Maybe if you had elected governors (interestingly the only party who ever proposed this was the Dems some time back) who would be local lords for a while but the central government actually inforemd the poor in each province exactly how much money or per capita was being sent their way that would educate or at least mitigate against local corruption which in many cases right now is far worse than central corruption. An independent auditor general or watchdog in each province would be needed. For all this to work best you actually need some adversarial stuff between local and central government but most of the itme you probably wouldnt have that and they would work hand in glove in the old corrupt ways.

The budgets for the rural areas have atcually increased over time but so has the leakage at local level

Thailands feudal system may be a lot less in towns these days but it is still very strong in the rural areas and will continue to haunt for a long time yet and while the local lords can siphon off funds and then just blame BKK for never sending any and people remain poorly edcuated and reliant on the lord it is hard to see change.

Another idea mooted is more cooperatives which in some areas have given farmers increased bargaining powers and even allowed them to bypass local control.

All good stuff!

I think decentralisation with elected provincial government and mayors of larger cities is the way to go.

If you have elected local or regional government you might have a better chance at transparency.

[stevotoo]

You also have to remember the popularity he gained in Thailand during the crackdown.

It was only when criticisms came from outside Thailand that people realised that it may not be as it seemed.

What he did was to allow the police to kill anyone they didn't like, anyone who knew too much and anyone who was suspected of being involved in drug distribution. This was very popular amongst the police who are now showing a degree of loyalty to him.

[barnsworth]

Well because the reds on here flash the airport thing whenever they run out of excuses for the current situation. surely you can recognize?

The besiege of Suvarnabhumi Airport IS relevant here because it shows the double standards in place with regards to each side protesting about opposition governments, coups, elections, corruption etc. The Yellows are once again distracting from the main issues, of course. :-(

How does the airport closure show double standards in regards to the coup, elections and or corruption? Absolute <deleted>! You want to discuss double standards? Lets start with your main man Thaksin who has commited crimes against humanity and got away with it!

That two protagonists are in the current cabinet not enough for you? Sorry you didn't know that did you. Two more FACTs for you.

The D in PAD stands for Democracy whilst the party call for appointed governments and again this week for yet another coup. FACT accepted by any serious media outlet on the planet outside a few owned by Sondhi and the Army.

The R in CRES stands for Resolution. All they have done (in anybodies eyes, Reds, PAD, Yellows, PM, Media, Army) is escalate the problem FACT Or do you want to state that the situation now is better than when the CRES was set up??

If the situation is now worse than 6 weeks ago, the CRES are not resolving it FACT and you can spin your anti Thaksin propagana all you want. These are facts!!!

Edited April 27, 2010 by barnsworth

[Irishrogue]

I'm not red and I'm not yellow...but this article seems pretty accurate. It is total chaos. I've never seen a civilized country act like this. Allowing violent protesters to take things over, while the police and the army do nothing. It is just crazy. This country is really messed up...sure glad I am not living in Bangkok now...

Perhaps you should then look at Northern Ireland where I can draw many similarities with the current crisis in Thailand. A simple protest by those who supposedly wanted their Civil Rights escalated into a conflict which lasted 30 years and caused thousands of innocent lives and all in the name of Civil Rights?

[clockworkorange]

Thaksin ordered killing of thousands of innocent people yet never got prosecuted for it. Does this give Abhisit automatic right to kill all the redshirted protesters? Afterall Thaksin did it.

The war on drugs? Sure Thaksin killed people there, but then again methamphetamine usage was a pandemic of hitherto unheard of proportions at the time. School kids were buying it to cram for their exams, taxi drivers were tweaking on it so that they could work all hours, families were split apart by it. It was a menace that was causing havoc, and Thaksin won wide popular support for controlling it where others had failed.

On the killing and saving lives subject, let's balance this a little. Thaksin did bring in a system of healthcare, as well as making antiviral drugs available to around 50,000 AIDS sufferers, giving them back their lives. He also (according to the World Bank) halved rural poverty.

For all his heavy handed tactics, Thaksin is still seen as a man who got things done, a man who helped the average Thai more than countless years of inept democrat party squabbling coalitions could ever do. This is why Abhisit is afraid even now to hold an election - he knows that he can connect to the majority of his people, that his people don't like him, and that he would be defeated.

[bangkoklight]

And then why do you constantly bring in the airport takeover - according to your logic, that would have nothing to do with the Red anarchy going on now.

LOL! I give up with these pro-government Yellows, I really do. Bless their little minds.

So, it's funny how Abhisit had milk and cornflakes, and egg on toast for breakfast this morning, isn't it? That's how much he represents Thai people! What about his Khao Dtom? Double standards or what!

Where did Thaksin sleep last night? What about Jatuporn, Arisman, Weng, Veera? Chavolit? Chalerm? I missed the video of them camping on the street. And the photos of their small farms. They represent the average Red? Or average Thai? Now that's funny.

I was joking about the milk and cornflakes. What Abhisit has for breakfast has nothing to do with this; the same as where Thaksin, Jatuporn, Arisman, Weng, and Veera sleep or what colour underpants they wear. But if you want to bring it up, Thaksin can't sleep on the streets in Bangkok because... he'd get arrested at the airport long before he could snuggle up with the farmers. And Jatuporn, Arisman, Weng, and Veera wouldn't sleep on the streets for same reason that Abhisit wouldn't. They are the leaders of political movements. They cannot coordinate affairs from a tent. Are you serious in your argument?

Edited April 27, 2010 by bangkoklight

[Koh_Falang]

When a political group is up against double standards, does it not make you wonder why some members of that group become so-called thugs? If you were passionate about free and fair elections and the return of the People's Constitution, would you sit down in a circle and sing songs? Come on!

And are the army thugs too? Why not? You cannot say they represent a democratically elected government. The army represent the remnants of a military coup and a constitution drawn up by the military!

So you are saying that its ok to become a thug because you've been down trodden... really?? is that what you are really advocating???

are you saying then that only the rich can be thugs and all poors have to be saints and all the rich robber barons can carry on as they have been , i.e. rich robber-barrons????????????????? .

To the contrary... im saying violence is not the answer, regardless of your social status or shirt colour ... I dont support any of the protests which turned violent, including that of 2 years ago...

Thats the problem with some of these arguments... You seem to think that violence is ok to solve a situation... It shouldnt be about "he did this 2 years ago so now im going to do the same"... Your only bringing yourself to the same level of your counterpart...

[Jerrytheyoung]

Excellent!

Are you French by chance? You must be from somewhere civilised!

Now, who is most likely to implement such things? The Democrats? the reds? Chart Thai Pattana?

As I've stated before, I think it will take two generations to sort things out. But it is possible.

I think it is most urgent to take action to try and make elections fair:-

1) No gerrymandering

2) Voting to be entirely confidential,

3) parties MUST publish manifestos

4) Voting buying to punished by severe prison term and life long ban from being an MP.

5) Get rid of the laughable requirement for MPs to have a degree (easily obtainable in Khao San Rd I suspect)

Response from reds? What do YOU want?

I have personnally meet general Chavalit few times, I do know that in 1997 he has been trapped by his Ministry of Finances and I do know that he is a man taking on him the errors of his subordinates.

Some people from his entourage told me that my ideas were quite close from Chavalit ones.

I will add for elections; candidates must present their campaign budget which has to be limited in order to permit poor people to be elected. Also part of the budget reimbursed if the Candidate reaches 5% of votes.

Interesting! Please can you enlighten me as to Chavalit history? What is his involvement today? Thanks

I have already told you: I am not in the Chavalit entourage, I have just gotten the opportunity to meet him 2, 3 years ago before the present affairs (before Abhisit in power)

At present, I am like you I follow what he is doing through the medias. But I appreciate that as leader he always takes full responsabilities of his subordinates and also he has a vision for development of the upper Country very similar to what I have exposed. (particularly industrial hubs in Issan). I do know also that some Thai Academics are very impressed by the French policy "Town and Country Planning" and do think they would like to implement something like that in their Country.

[Koh_Falang]

Thaksin ordered killing of thousands of innocent people yet never got prosecuted for it. Does this give Abhisit automatic right to kill all the redshirted protesters? Afterall Thaksin did it.

How stupid can this "double standard" discussion get?

Thaksin ordered the killing of these people who were believed to be drug runners. It has nothing to do with what's happening now. Why bring this into the debate?

WOW, WOW....... WOW!!!!! You are saying that orders to kill thousands of relatively poor Thai citizens, without proof, with out evidence, without any legal representation for a crime that does not carry the death penalty is OK, no problem?? Mai-pen-rai???

Ordered by the man who is now behind the violence, killing, and sabotage of the countries infrastructure. This is OK, not related?

WOW. bangkoklightsout

Hes not saying its ok... hes saying its not related...

IMO bringing up past injustices in an inflamitory manner does not help solve the current situation...