Thai Forces Fire Warning Shots In Standoff With Red Shirts

[jcbangkok]

Okay, first I apologize for getting a bit snippy. It is way past my bed time and am getting grumpy.

Plus you actually sound like a very reasonable person. And believe it or not, I don't see that too often with red supporters.

I am not going to try suggest how to solve the problems of the poor in the north or the rest of Thailand but there have been some great posts I have read on these threads with some great ideas. By the way none of them involved what the reds are doing now.

One of the things that upsets me about the whole red movement, beyond all their actions, is that they claim to represent the poor but provide absolutely NO requests from the government to help them. In fact, if you go back and look at the very early quotes from red leaders they made it clear that they would NEVER support Abhisit regardless of what policies he has enacted. So, the first thing we need to do is understand and accept that this red movement has NOTHING to do with the poor except they are possibly being led to a slaughter by the red leaders.

Abhisit has guaranteed free healthcare, free schooling and school supplies as well as given cash handouts to the poor of this country and increasing payments to the elderly. This is just a few things he has done in 18 months to help the poor of Thailand. Meanwhile, Thaksin had 6 years and it seems these folks in the north are worse than ever before based on their actions. Yet, nobody can name one thing Abhisit did to hurt them or one policy he took back of Thaksins. In fact, he has only made them better such as requiring no payment for healthcare instead of the 30 baht program that Thaksin put in place that was a disaster.

So, please tell me how this is about the plight of poor in the north???? The only thing that can be said is Thaksin was buying their votes and he provided loans to them wich he knew they would not be able to pay back and didn;t enforce any kind of rules how the loans needed to be spent with the results that only the local leaders up there got rich and they are the ones who seem to easily be able to mold the minds of the masses up there.

This movement is nothing about democracy either though it is a great buzz word. Nobody should be so ignorant to think the poor farmers in the north could give a flying f--- about politics as long as they are doing okay.

So, what is the movement about? Thaksin making promises and payments to leaders to help them get more rich and promises to the poor they will get more hand outs and their debts forgiven if they can bring down this gov't. Do hand out really help? As I mentioned these folks are pretty upset now so it is obvious Thaksin did NOTHING to help improve opportunities up there to allow them to support themselves even with all the subsidies and guaranteed prices for rice.

And I don't know this for fact but have to assume if these people are that poor then they are likely very uneducated as things such as politics and democracy and simply believe what their red leaders are telling them.

Bottom line, in my opinion, if you care about the poor up there then the worst thing you can do is support this red movement as it is nothing but a sham that is going to hurt the people up there now and in the long run. Think about it ... have you heard one demand from any red leader for any improved conditions for the poor or farmers or have they just been dead set on taking down this government at almost any cost.

And as for bugets, seats and military appointments ... this is all nonsense. There is no rush accept for Thaksin running low on funds and knowing the longer he is aways from seized assets the more impossible it will be to get back. Not to mention this is a power hungry dude who thrives on power and literally wants to be appointed ruler of Thailand. Pretty sad when you think about it that there is few if any pictures of The King within the Red movement. If you haven't had the chance, read up on what a great man he is and how his love of Thailand and its people is well beyond question. He is the King but he is above politics and there could be no reason to for Thais not to be displaying his picture, as is customary, at a rally this big unless ... (big jump here but need to make it to avoid getting to into this topic) ... what the gov't has stated recently is true in regards to their plans to overthrow the monarchy.

And why would they do this? All it takes it to go back and see the cult or personality Thaksin was creating around himself.

No, you've still got it wrong. This isn't about government handouts or programs--a benevolent fascist is still a fascist. It's about power, and if the people from the provinces continue to be marginalized from the political process (for example, "new politics"), leaders who are very hostile to their interests will come along, and at that point they'll have no recourse. As a collective group, they may be poor and undereducated, but it doesn't take long to explain to someone that they're being disenfranchised and make them believe it in light of the events of the past few years.

LMAO, had to stop reading when you said they are worried about future leaders ... LMAO

Good Night and thanks for putting a smile and my face ... still looking for that one red support who actually is willing to be reasonable and examine facts such as the ones that come right out of there leaders mouth instead of making up things and acting as if this is what the red movement believes in but is keeping it secret from the rest of Thailand and the world

Edited April 28, 2010 by jcbangkok

[ozzieman05]

My 5 baht worth, general rules of engagement

A good illustration of the rules of engagement approved for NATO troops

"Rules of engagement are applied in any operation describe the situation in which the security forces can use lethal force either to defend their lives, or the lives of colleagues, or the lives of civilians."

Security forces can if they see a threat coming they do not have to wait to be attacked [and] to take casualties. They can take action to defend themselves -- including, if necessary, preemptively."

NATO's rules of engagement would be interpreted even more broadly -- for example, allowing security forces at a checkpoint to shoot a car that is speeding toward them.

"The NATO forces are going to be allowed to fire when they feel they are going to come under attack. And generally speaking, this means that the attackers need to be identified with some form of weapon, or be known to use some sort of weapn -- either rifles, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, Molotov cocktails,"

This is where it comes into a question of interpretation. Certainly, a vehicle being driven at speed at soldiers at a checkpoint is often felt to be a life-threatening situation in which soldiers could use lethal force to stop that vehicle."

[jcbangkok]

On bit of advice to anyone who finds it hard to make a living where they live and/or doing what they are doing despite living virtually tax free, and tax exempt as well as being provided a great deal of freebies and guaranteed prices for what you produce ... that advice is MOVE or get another job.

Take a lesson from Thaksin but try to avoid the stealing, corruption and killing.

[kissdani]

Just heard from a friend of tge wife who couldnt get home and has been stuck for hours. BKK streets around Victory monumnet closed. Loads of troops. Lots of people. Anger towards red shirts immense. People cant get home blaming red shirts

That is the line of the government propaganda, but the PR strategy don't work out well.

If you just listen to the reports on television how the soldiers getting icetea and flowers by the 'residents' you could think that. That happen too, no doubt, and the pro government protetst are real too. But with the one sided reports by the tv channels it becomes nothing more than propaganda. If you talk to the people you will hear that many not just blame the red shirts. Hard core anti-reds are a minority.

For many the government and the govt statements have lost credibility, people are not stupid and not believe everything but start to ask questions.

Try finding a single Thai person who isnt a red shirt now who doesnt think they are violent. Impossible

Not all non-reds are also staunch anti-reds, but having balanced views.

Try to find a media savvy Thai who still swallows the government line.

Edited April 28, 2010 by kissdani

[ozzieman05]

Are the protesters innocent

In a protest the protesters are deemed to be innocent if they march or congregate in an area that is free by law for them to congregate

If they are moving and come across a security force which has the authority to ask them to stop, and they do so they are considered innocent protesters

If they make any hostile movement towards the security forces, while under and order to stop, they are no longer innocent protesters

The security forces would then command them to stop or they may be forced to shoot

If the protesters do not obey this order they, are no longer innocent, but provoking hostilities

The security forces are then within their rights to again command them to halt and shoot a warning shot into the air

If the protesters continue to advance on security forces they are then considered to be a hostile force. and definatley no longer innocent protesters

If at this time after multiple warnings that the security force may open fire, protesters are putting themselves into danger of their own making and may even be considered suicidal

It would be advisable first for security forces to shoot at the protesters feet, taking away their ability to advance.

The Thai security forces use a similar method, with there rules being the distance that protesters are from the security forces, and if they do not show any signs of halting their progress

There is no way under the rules of engagement that the red shirts can be called innocent protesters

At this point in time they have full knowledge of what can happen and confirm this with their statements that they are willing to fight to the death

At common law the responsibility of any injuries or deaths must be born by the leaders of the protest if at a time they saw danger in continuing the protest, there could be injuries or deaths and they failed to stop the protest

[whiterussian]

^ right now the courts and rule of law do not really exist! The reds may be the new government in 30, 60, 90, 100 days time! But yes, in theory, if the police follow orders, and the military dont revolt against the dems (who may be banned soon anyway for 5 years)... then the reds are proceeding unlawfully.

The thing is that the yellows may be the 'mob' next time with the reds in the bunker! But at least they will have the Dems battle tactics these last few weeks to draw upon.

I dont know which side has the upper hand behind the scenes... I guess we find out soon enough, either through a popular vote, or a state of even greater emergency!

Dems are damned if they do, dammed if they dont, lets just hope they dont go out with a scorched earth policy, be nice to see some dignity left for them.

---------

I do wonder how Thais are going to look after the nuclear power plants they plan to build.. might have to create an uber-ninja force to guard them. Maybe shao-lin monk types!!

Edited April 28, 2010 by whiterussian

[jcbangkok]

But it is reasonable to assume that a large proportion of the 22 million in Isaan are red supporters ..

not really since you would need to give us a break down on the demographics. I mean how many of these 22 million are under 12 years old, under 21 years old and over 50 years old? What is the break down on education level? How many are still working to payoff the loans Thaksin provided them knowing they would not be able to pay them back and only make their local leaders rich? Need some more numbers until then, will stick with the polls which show there is NOT a majority of people in ALL of Thailand who support the red beliefs let alone their current acts of aggression against the rest of Thailand.

The real Red cause you will find the majority of Thai's are supportive of.

The fake Red cause of Thaksin (as portrayed by Yellow) a large amount of Isaan does support.

Team Yellow has abused their power for so long since the coup, and so openly, that they now have a problem in that the majority of the Army and Police are no longer willing to do their dirty work - that is a real issue.

Abhisit thinks he is the only one that can solve the problems - but he is just a puppet - that is a real issue.

The government banning all media it does not like - that is a real issue.

Pumping of propaganda in Yellow media when evidence is there to the contrary - that is a real issue.

Team Yellow I think still think this is 1992 and not now 2010 - that is a real issue.

Many more issues too.........

hmmm, i really need to go to bed but saw the first line of your post and it intrigued me. I would really like to hear more about the real red cause as I believe there really should be a real group of people fighting for more opportunity in Thailand. People talk about the middle class in BKK but beyond the few very rich there really is nothing here but poor and poorer. I think this is why so many people are turning away from the reds right now. If they had or have any cause it is really lost at this point and they are drowning out any voice of people who really are looking for change.

I don't want to get into the rest as I don't speak Thai and have not watched the Red Channels before but I do know what is coming from that stage in red central is evil, manipulative BS. I also know those Red leaders are not fighting for anybody or anything but their own pockets at the expense of those ________ (fill in blank) to follow them.

As for the news being allowed to broadcast and print (online too) now, I really don't see it is being all that slanted. It is really bad and suspect as well as incomplete but it does seem to be the truth and they always seem to provide at least some sort of view from the other side.

At this point you have two sides only and to me Abhisit has the credibility even though I certainly don't support this level of censorship and not in a agreement of his handling of this issue to date BUT if the red media outlets were advocating violence or encouraging more people to join an illegal _____ (fill in blank) then I understand it. No media outlet would be able to do this in the US which claims the trump card when it comes to freedom of the press. Also, I am getting the feeling this red mob is running out of steam and may be going home soon. If that is the case then I have to hand it to the PM and admit I am wrong.

Surely you must agree that what the reds are doing now and what the yellows did before is wrong and it cannot be tolerated or it will simply continue with each new leadership. There are so many other ways to attain your goals. One would be doing protests in a way to embarrass and shame the gov't while getting huge international attention. You can do this without violence or instigating violence or hurting Thailand. Nobody made a big stink when they paraded through BKK that first week and in fact they got supporters lining the street (proof to your point in the original sentence) and in fact I was out there taking pictures and digging it. What if they were to really do this but got 1 Million People to join? Surely they can find some leaders willing to put something together and promote it right so that it is not about such negativity and clearly a name change would be in order based on all the reds past acts from ASEAN summit to last April through attacking the PM in his car, storming gov't buildings and so on. How many Thais want to be involved in this kind of cr@p??

Forget about all the obvious stuff but Take a look at this article and tell me the leaders of this movement are people who savvy or intelligent enough to be followed.

Bottom line is I hope there is a real movement in Thailand to help turbo charge the timing of having more opportunities here for all Thais but I really could care less what the current red mob believe, even if it is just, because I believe they have lost their right to be heard until they go home and act civil and apologize for being misled. As for the leaders of the reds (as well as the yellows at the airport) they need to be brought in front of the justice system and dealt with.

[jcbangkok]

who am i kidding ... if Thailand advances too much then few of us would want to be here. The cheap girls would dry up along with the cheap everything else as well as it becoming more like the countries we like to escape from. As long as it stays backwards and loose they can always count on at least 6% of the their revenues to come from us.

[Flory]

Good Night and thanks for putting a smile and my face ... still looking for that one red support who actually is willing to be reasonable and examine facts such as the ones that come right out of there leaders mouth instead of making up things and acting as if this is what the red movement believes in but is keeping it secret from the rest of Thailand and the world

This really isn't so much of a stretch as you're making it, so just hear me out. This is the progression of events for many red shirts:

1. For a long time, the powerful institutions of Thailand were untouchable. Although peoples' lives were hard, they suffered from all of the social ills that accompany poverty, and their areas saw few of the modern benefits and accumulation of wealth which were starting to come to Bangkok, this was simply a fact of life. It was not something that they thought could be changed.

2. Thaksin was the first politician to see the political potential of the region as a major voting block, and so was the first to really awaken them to the benefits of political participation. Yes, he was doing it to serve his own ends. Yes, there was massive corruption and vote buying. But his programs did start to improve the lives of the people of the provinces. So much so, in fact, that Thaksin's growing power became a real threat to the long-established powers that had ruled the country for so long.

3. With the coup and the subsequent political maneuvering, Thaksin's supporters were, for all intents and purposes, cut out of the political process once again. The movements which had sprung up in opposition to Thaksin sought not to topple him at the ballot box, but rather to limit the democratic power of the areas which had elected him because the people who lived there were obviously too stupid to do what was right for the country, and therefore had to be disenfranchised. This condescending sentiment was not lost on the people it was directed against.

4. After the rewriting of the constitution by the military and after the courts threw out Samak, dissolved the TRT party and with it Somchai's government, and finally made the decision to confiscate Thaksin's frozen assets without ever having brought any charges against the leaders of the airport seizure, it was clear to the red shirts that they'd lost their voice in the government and with it the political power they'd had their first taste of under Thaksin's government. The people upcountry are fully aware of these events, and each successive setback for them has brought them closer to the current populist fervor and their stubborn defiance of forces that, in pre-Thaksin times, they would have never dared to tangle with.

[donmac]

I hope the monsoon come's and wash away all the scum of the street.

Couldn't resist ...

Spot on.

They should clear the steets this has got way out of hand now. All of them yellows and reds. If they can't let them fight it out between them, bunch of kids.

when i was staying in san kamphaeng (taskin town) the main concern of the thai people i came across was the loans the goverment was trying get.

I have now heard that the 1.4-trillion-baht Thai Khem Khaeng stimulus programme is to be withdrawn .

[lookpapa]

Okay, first I apologize for getting a bit snippy. It is way past my bed time and am getting grumpy.

Plus you actually sound like a very reasonable person. And believe it or not, I don't see that too often with red supporters.

I am not going to try suggest how to solve the problems of the poor in the north or the rest of Thailand but there have been some great posts I have read on these threads with some great ideas. By the way none of them involved what the reds are doing now.

One of the things that upsets me about the whole red movement, beyond all their actions, is that they claim to represent the poor but provide absolutely NO requests from the government to help them. In fact, if you go back and look at the very early quotes from red leaders they made it clear that they would NEVER support Abhisit regardless of what policies he has enacted. So, the first thing we need to do is understand and accept that this red movement has NOTHING to do with the poor except they are possibly being led to a slaughter by the red leaders.

Abhisit has guaranteed free healthcare, free schooling and school supplies as well as given cash handouts to the poor of this country and increasing payments to the elderly. This is just a few things he has done in 18 months to help the poor of Thailand. Meanwhile, Thaksin had 6 years and it seems these folks in the north are worse than ever before based on their actions. Yet, nobody can name one thing Abhisit did to hurt them or one policy he took back of Thaksins. In fact, he has only made them better such as requiring no payment for healthcare instead of the 30 baht program that Thaksin put in place that was a disaster.

So, please tell me how this is about the plight of poor in the north???? The only thing that can be said is Thaksin was buying their votes and he provided loans to them wich he knew they would not be able to pay back and didn;t enforce any kind of rules how the loans needed to be spent with the results that only the local leaders up there got rich and they are the ones who seem to easily be able to mold the minds of the masses up there.

This movement is nothing about democracy either though it is a great buzz word. Nobody should be so ignorant to think the poor farmers in the north could give a flying f--- about politics as long as they are doing okay.

So, what is the movement about? Thaksin making promises and payments to leaders to help them get more rich and promises to the poor they will get more hand outs and their debts forgiven if they can bring down this gov't. Do hand out really help? As I mentioned these folks are pretty upset now so it is obvious Thaksin did NOTHING to help improve opportunities up there to allow them to support themselves even with all the subsidies and guaranteed prices for rice.

And I don't know this for fact but have to assume if these people are that poor then they are likely very uneducated as things such as politics and democracy and simply believe what their red leaders are telling them.

Bottom line, in my opinion, if you care about the poor up there then the worst thing you can do is support this red movement as it is nothing but a sham that is going to hurt the people up there now and in the long run. Think about it ... have you heard one demand from any red leader for any improved conditions for the poor or farmers or have they just been dead set on taking down this government at almost any cost.

And as for bugets, seats and military appointments ... this is all nonsense. There is no rush accept for Thaksin running low on funds and knowing the longer he is aways from seized assets the more impossible it will be to get back. Not to mention this is a power hungry dude who thrives on power and literally wants to be appointed ruler of Thailand. Pretty sad when you think about it that there is few if any pictures of The King within the Red movement. If you haven't had the chance, read up on what a great man he is and how his love of Thailand and its people is well beyond question. He is the King but he is above politics and there could be no reason to for Thais not to be displaying his picture, as is customary, at a rally this big unless ... (big jump here but need to make it to avoid getting to into this topic) ... what the gov't has stated recently is true in regards to their plans to overthrow the monarchy.

And why would they do this? All it takes it to go back and see the cult or personality Thaksin was creating around himself.

No, you've still got it wrong. This isn't about government handouts or programs--a benevolent fascist is still a fascist. It's about power, and if the people from the provinces continue to be marginalized from the political process (for example, "new politics"), leaders who are very hostile to their interests will come along, and at that point they'll have no recourse. As a collective group, they may be poor and undereducated, but it doesn't take long to explain to someone that they're being disenfranchised and make them believe it in light of the events of the past few years.

"they're being disenfranchised"

This is the crux of the problem. All the other arguments are furphy. There's no way of avoiding this truth by arguing about Thaksin and vote buying etc. About 20 million people in Thailand aren't represented properly in political life and are thought of as second class citizens. They're the butt of jokes among the elite of the country. They're kept uneducated to serve the hi so middle and upper classes.

They need to be recognised as human beings and given some share of the spoils of the past decades of Thai economical pie. The Democrats failed to bring them on side by social policies and had they done so they would've got a mandate in their own right.

It's not too late but they'd have to be more flexibile. Unfortunately I think there are forces behind the current government pulling the strings to stop any change to Thai society. The PM does not have the resolve to act and the military is split. That's where we're at until someone steps up and becomes a hero and embraces the reds as people instead of terrorists. Real terrorists could have really wreaked havoc in death and injuries. It's so easy in a crowded city.

[gregb]

The people upcountry are fully aware of these events, and each successive setback for them has brought them closer to the current populist fervor and their stubborn defiance of forces that, in pre-Thaksin times, they would have never dared to tangle with.

I think you have an overly active imagination or, at the very least, a great sense of hyperbole.

You may be describing 1% of the population, but my inlaws are red supporters and have absolutely no idea of anything you just said. What they know, by their own admission, is that the village culture says they should support the red movement, so they support it. There is no sense of righteous indignation except that created by the vitriol spewed by the UDD.

They freely admit that their economic livelihood is better under the Abhisit government than under any Thaksin compliant government, but that does not change their perspective. Their voice in politics is the same as it has always been. They get paid around 300 baht to vote for the person the pooyai bahn tells them to, and they consider it breaking a covenant not to do this. They would lose face in the village. This is the reality on the ground.

This is the real face of Issan. This is the majority of those upcountry voters you are trying to tell us are incensed at being disenfranchised.

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

The only people disenfranchised in this little suare are the elite UDD leaders. They need to be removed, and their treasonous propaganda needs to be countered by more rational elements of society.

Everyone wants to help and listen to the Issan people, with the exception of the leaders of the UDD who would rather use them for their own nefarious means. The problem with Issan is the very people that rural poor look to for guidance, are the exact same people whose only interest is in enriching themselves. This division in society will stop only when the elements inside the red movement fanning the flames of hate are caught and eliminated.

I can tell you with 100% surety that the majority of red supporters in Issan will not be incensed by the capture and punishment of the terrorists within the UDD organisation if the pooyai bahn tells them they should not be.

This is all about trust and information. The people are largely innocent pawns being used by people who care nothing for their well being. The best thing anyone could do for them is end these senseless protests and stop filling their heads with false vitrious propaganda.

[waza]

Good Night and thanks for putting a smile and my face ... still looking for that one red support who actually is willing to be reasonable and examine facts such as the ones that come right out of there leaders mouth instead of making up things and acting as if this is what the red movement believes in but is keeping it secret from the rest of Thailand and the world

This really isn't so much of a stretch as you're making it, so just hear me out. This is the progression of events for many red shirts:

1. For a long time, the powerful institutions of Thailand were untouchable. Although peoples' lives were hard, they suffered from all of the social ills that accompany poverty, and their areas saw few of the modern benefits and accumulation of wealth which were starting to come to Bangkok, this was simply a fact of life. It was not something that they thought could be changed.

2. Thaksin was the first politician to see the political potential of the region as a major voting block, and so was the first to really awaken them to the benefits of political participation. Yes, he was doing it to serve his own ends. Yes, there was massive corruption and vote buying. But his programs did start to improve the lives of the people of the provinces. So much so, in fact, that Thaksin's growing power became a real threat to the long-established powers that had ruled the country for so long.

3. With the coup and the subsequent political maneuvering, Thaksin's supporters were, for all intents and purposes, cut out of the political process once again. The movements which had sprung up in opposition to Thaksin sought not to topple him at the ballot box, but rather to limit the democratic power of the areas which had elected him because the people who lived there were obviously too stupid to do what was right for the country, and therefore had to be disenfranchised. This condescending sentiment was not lost on the people it was directed against.

4. After the rewriting of the constitution by the military and after the courts threw out Samak, dissolved the TRT party and with it Somchai's government, and finally made the decision to confiscate Thaksin's frozen assets without ever having brought any charges against the leaders of the airport seizure, it was clear to the red shirts that they'd lost their voice in the government and with it the political power they'd had their first taste of under Thaksin's government. The people upcountry are fully aware of these events, and each successive setback for them has brought them closer to the current populist fervor and their stubborn defiance of forces that, in pre-Thaksin times, they would have never dared to tangle with.

Which episode of "Star wars" is this? Cant be "Episode V The Empire strikes back", its must be "Episode IV: A New Hope ".

[Flory]

I think you have an overly active imagination or, at the very least, a great sense of hyperbole.

You may be describing 1% of the population, but my inlaws are red supporters and have absolutely no idea of anything you just said. What they know, by their own admission, is that the village culture says they should support the red movement, so they support it. There is no sense of righteous indignation except that created by the vitriol spewed by the UDD.

They freely admit that their economic livelihood is better under the Abhisit government than under any Thaksin compliant government, but that does not change their perspective. Their voice in politics is the same as it has always been. They get paid around 300 baht to vote for the person the pooyai bahn tells them to, and they consider it breaking a covenant not to do this. They would lose face in the village. This is the reality on the ground.

This is the real face of Issan. This is the majority of those upcountry voters you are trying to tell us are incensed at being disenfranchised.

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

The only people disenfranchised in this little suare are the elite UDD leaders. They need to be removed, and their treasonous propaganda needs to be countered by more rational elements of society.

Everyone wants to help and listen to the Issan people, with the exception of the leaders of the UDD who would rather use them for their own nefarious means. The problem with Issan is the very people that rural poor look to for guidance, are the exact same people whose only interest is in enriching themselves. This division in society will stop only when the elements inside the red movement fanning the flames of hate are caught and eliminated.

I can tell you with 100% surety that the majority of red supporters in Issan will not be incensed by the capture and punishment of the terrorists within the UDD organisation if the pooyai bahn tells them they should not be.

This is all about trust and information. The people are largely innocent pawns being used by people who care nothing for their well being. The best thing anyone could do for them is end these senseless protests and stop filling their heads with false vitrious propaganda.

I live upcountry and have traveled to every single province in Isaan, so at this point it's just your anecdotal evidence against mine. Used to live in a village (while Thaksin was PM) and OTOP and the universal health program made a world of difference for the people in the places I've been. That is unfortunate about your in-laws' situation. I'm sorry. So people don't watch the news in their village or what?

[lookpapa]

The people upcountry are fully aware of these events, and each successive setback for them has brought them closer to the current populist fervor and their stubborn defiance of forces that, in pre-Thaksin times, they would have never dared to tangle with.

I think you have an overly active imagination or, at the very least, a great sense of hyperbole.

You may be describing 1% of the population, but my inlaws are red supporters and have absolutely no idea of anything you just said. What they know, by their own admission, is that the village culture says they should support the red movement, so they support it. There is no sense of righteous indignation except that created by the vitriol spewed by the UDD.

They freely admit that their economic livelihood is better under the Abhisit government than under any Thaksin compliant government, but that does not change their perspective. Their voice in politics is the same as it has always been. They get paid around 300 baht to vote for the person the pooyai bahn tells them to, and they consider it breaking a covenant not to do this. They would lose face in the village. This is the reality on the ground.

This is the real face of Issan. This is the majority of those upcountry voters you are trying to tell us are incensed at being disenfranchised.

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

The only people disenfranchised in this little suare are the elite UDD leaders. They need to be removed, and their treasonous propaganda needs to be countered by more rational elements of society.

Everyone wants to help and listen to the Issan people, with the exception of the leaders of the UDD who would rather use them for their own nefarious means. The problem with Issan is the very people that rural poor look to for guidance, are the exact same people whose only interest is in enriching themselves. This division in society will stop only when the elements inside the red movement fanning the flames of hate are caught and eliminated.

I can tell you with 100% surety that the majority of red supporters in Issan will not be incensed by the capture and punishment of the terrorists within the UDD organisation if the pooyai bahn tells them they should not be.

This is all about trust and information. The people are largely innocent pawns being used by people who care nothing for their well being. The best thing anyone could do for them is end these senseless protests and stop filling their heads with false vitrious propaganda.

I'm afraid your assessment is only going to prolong the plight of the Isaan people which you so ably describe. What you describe about the best that could be done for them is keeping them ignorant for ever. The best that could be done for them is to get them some education and open their eyes and offer them opportunities for the future. You're happy for them the way they are and have been for decades and longer. You're advocating the status quo for the sake of peace and quiet.

You're probably doing for your inlaws which should have been done by a decent society. I think a lot of farangs who married into an Isaan family become their social security safety net.

A country which abandons a big percenatge of their population is asking for social unrest. That's what we're seeing now.

[tracer5050]

getting ready to explode

[lazurus]

The people upcountry are fully aware of these events, and each successive setback for them has brought them closer to the current populist fervor and their stubborn defiance of forces that, in pre-Thaksin times, they would have never dared to tangle with.

I think you have an overly active imagination or, at the very least, a great sense of hyperbole.

You may be describing 1% of the population, but my inlaws are red supporters and have absolutely no idea of anything you just said. What they know, by their own admission, is that the village culture says they should support the red movement, so they support it. There is no sense of righteous indignation except that created by the vitriol spewed by the UDD.

They freely admit that their economic livelihood is better under the Abhisit government than under any Thaksin compliant government, but that does not change their perspective. Their voice in politics is the same as it has always been. They get paid around 300 baht to vote for the person the pooyai bahn tells them to, and they consider it breaking a covenant not to do this. They would lose face in the village. This is the reality on the ground.

This is the real face of Issan. This is the majority of those upcountry voters you are trying to tell us are incensed at being disenfranchised.

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

The only people disenfranchised in this little suare are the elite UDD leaders. They need to be removed, and their treasonous propaganda needs to be countered by more rational elements of society.

Everyone wants to help and listen to the Issan people, with the exception of the leaders of the UDD who would rather use them for their own nefarious means. The problem with Issan is the very people that rural poor look to for guidance, are the exact same people whose only interest is in enriching themselves. This division in society will stop only when the elements inside the red movement fanning the flames of hate are caught and eliminated.

I can tell you with 100% surety that the majority of red supporters in Issan will not be incensed by the capture and punishment of the terrorists within the UDD organisation if the pooyai bahn tells them they should not be.

This is all about trust and information. The people are largely innocent pawns being used by people who care nothing for their well being. The best thing anyone could do for them is end these senseless protests and stop filling their heads with false vitrious propaganda.

Most of the top red shirt leaders don't even come from Isaan.

[jcbangkok]

getting ready to explode

we talking bowels or the streets? I think a fair question to ask being in Thailand.

[jcbangkok]

BAAC allocates Bt 420 bn loans for the rural sector

The Bank for Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives plans to provide loans totalling Bt420 billion to the rural sector this year, BAAC president, Luck Wajananawat said.

The Bt420 billion in loans will be allocated as follows - Bt44.5 billion for livestocks and fisheries, Bt140 billion to support growing of economic crops, Bt45.5 billion for producing alternative energy sources, Bt68 billion for jobs creation in rural areas, Bt30 billion for creating economic communities, Bt52 billion to support the agricultural institute and Bt40 billion to support the government's agricultural policy, according to the BAAC president said.

The Nation

-------------------------

Do you think one red shirt leader cares or is telling their flock about this? Why would they since their prosperity means nothing to them and in fact it is in their interests to keep their sheep poor.

[chantorn]

that means he was shot by his own men not red shirts

Although obviously would still be friendly fire ... I originally heard a policeman shot him. Has anybody got any more facts on what actually went down?

One thing that was clear today is there were a number of reds (or are they former reds now) dressed in army fatigue type attire. Not saying they shot the soldier but certainly could have played a part in the confusion if that is what this was.

Come on, who would shot their own side.

It is obvious that The RED have snipers, and shoot the police.

Thai TV (all channel) last night have shown a table full of big bullets captured from the RED. Unfortunately the RED guy got away. I ask myself, how could 1 RED guy carry so much weapon on a motobike?

[Koh_Falang]

"they're being disenfranchised"

This is the crux of the problem. All the other arguments are furphy.

Im sorry - You have a nation on the edge of some pretty nasty action... Yes I agree it is a major problem that these people are denied some major rights but.... first and foremost is the right to live...

If this kicks off big time... being disenfranchised will be the least of your worries when your dealing with a bullet in your head.

Get with the program - find a solution to stop the violence first... Then deal with being disenfranchised.

[thaifalang]

Looks like the first good tactical move by the force. Attacking the Reds when out of their stronghold. Now if they manage to prevent the 2000 or so protesters from rejoining the main rally, they'll have struck a serious blow against the most hardcore and mobile elements of the Reds.

The fact that the Reds have weapons is not in question since apr. 10, but the point of this operation was catching the reds when they're unprepared, and when they probably don't carry around so many weapons.

Was behind the barricade at Silom yesterday and there were several bottles filled with liquid and a piece of cloth on top. The barricade itself is not that impressive: a good sneeze would put it down, but the police better have some heavy equipment or be prepared for casualties when they finally storm it.

I agree to all your points. The red shirts braking the law and must be punished. Right and order must be re-installed.......... hard but carefully.

[Bigbore]

I'm a little sick of hearing the redshirts this and the redshirts that. This is democracy in motion. If a ruling party refuses to openly compromise then the outcome can be violent. People here are passionate about their country. I admire them for that. They are willing to give their life for what they believe in. You whiners that think your opinion matters are just adding to the problem. The Thai people have a leader they believe is illegitimate and they are acting as such.

Many years ago our countries did the same thing the Thai are doing now. GIVE THEM SOME SLACK!!! Your opinion as a farang means nothing but your trivial rhetoric may create discontent that isn't needed. We are bystanders. Pay some respect and allow the process to come to it's conclusion. It is coming soon. I believe we will have a better country that we are visiting than the one that exists now.

You're an idiot. This is hardly "democracy in motion". This is a mob of pissed off people overthrowing a government. That's not democracy. You know, at first I felt somewhat supportive of the red-shirts, but not anymore. Due to their actions, do you seriously believe these are people who are going to be content with nothing more than free & fair elections? I very highly doubt that, and their actions have very much proven otherwise.

I think this is actually starting to get pretty serious though. You have to remember, it was only a simple 35 years ago that Pol Pot was in charge of Cambodia, and killing millions of his fellow country men. Up to this date, the red shirts have given pretty strong indications that they're capable of doing the same type of thing. Some of them seem to have become quite demented, and at the point where they despise anyone who has more money than them.

No matter how you cut it, or what side you support, this isn't good. Let's hope it resolves itself with as little bloodshed as possible, and things don't turn into total anarchy. Don't be fooled into thinking that anarchy and a 100% reversal of power & governance can't happen though.

If it is not democracy, then what is it? How was democracy inevitably achieved in your country? Most democracies did not start that way, the people had to fight to gain liberties. I would guess through force, because most ruling governments that do not represent the people end up in some type reaction from the people.

The other guy is right. You are an idiot.

[OzMick]

-- The Nation

Police confiscated 63 M-79 grenades from a motorcycle during a search on Vibhavadi Rangsit road on Wednesday.

Police stopped a motorcycle at a checkpoint set up after red shirts protesters clashed with troops on the road. Driver of the vehicle stopped as ordered but managed to run away.

Police then searched the vehicle and confiscated a total of 63 M-79 grenades from the vehicle.

It is still unclear how the explosives were packed.

Also found were documents of Pol Sgt Pratya Maneekote of Patum Thani's Kukot district.

Police could not say whether the drive was the sergeant.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Morons. They managed to let the guy flee. On foot. On an elevated expressway. Aren't situation like this one precisely why policemen get issued guns? Fortunately the guy was even more of a moron and left his papers behind. At least this will decrease the stock of M79 grenades ready to be tossed around Bangkok.

I don't believe this was staged: it looks too much like sheer stupidity at work.

How do you hide or even carry 63 grenades on a motorcycle? Where would you put them? How can a driver run away and get away?

Investigative reporters of the Nation please do your homework and at least make your stories half believable.

The Nation article said "no details available on how the grenades were stored" or words to that effect. Late model Waves have an under-seat storage to carry a helmet; the M-79 grenade is 40mm diameter x 46mm long (?) Can you fit 63 under a seat? I don't know, do you?

[shawndoc]

I'd read somewhere earlier (Here maybe?), that the grenades were apparently in a large bag draped over the seat. It was supposedly a canvas fertilizer or feed bag.

[OzMick]

-- The Nation

Police confiscated 63 M-79 grenades from a motorcycle during a search on Vibhavadi Rangsit road on Wednesday.

Police stopped a motorcycle at a checkpoint set up after red shirts protesters clashed with troops on the road. Driver of the vehicle stopped as ordered but managed to run away.

Police then searched the vehicle and confiscated a total of 63 M-79 grenades from the vehicle.

It is still unclear how the explosives were packed.

Also found were documents of Pol Sgt Pratya Maneekote of Patum Thani's Kukot district.

Police could not say whether the drive was the sergeant.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

Morons. They managed to let the guy flee. On foot. On an elevated expressway. Aren't situation like this one precisely why policemen get issued guns? Fortunately the guy was even more of a moron and left his papers behind. At least this will decrease the stock of M79 grenades ready to be tossed around Bangkok.

I don't believe this was staged: it looks too much like sheer stupidity at work.

How do you hide or even carry 63 grenades on a motorcycle? Where would you put them? How can a driver run away and get away?

Investigative reporters of the Nation please do your homework and at least make your stories half believable.

This sounds like the report in the Nation that 6000 AK47s and ammo that were supposedly stolen from an army depot just before the rally began...if an AK47 weighs 25 pounds (I'm guessing) you would need a train to cart the stuff away...think about it the guns would weigh about 75 tons...the Nation thinks its readers are idiots, and they are right....

Why guess and ask stupid questions? Google is your friend. AK-47 weighs less than 10lb, even an M-60 weighs less than 25.

[kissdani]

it is obvious that we are witnessing a similar uprising to that in Tsarist Russia

No. The uprising here has no relation to what happened in Russia. You are so very very wrong.

Go back and read a little more about history.

Gotta say,dont dont remember reading in the history books the Bolsheviks being paid to close down Moscow.

St. Petersburg, not Moscow was the place of action.

The quote was also taken out of context and also not written by Markaew but by another TVF member.

Of course it is difficult to compare and needs more words to explain what you actually want to point out.

The development in Russia are a complex issue. In the October Revolution the Bolsheviks didn't overthrow the tsar, but a weak Provisional Government that came into power after the so called February Revolution and had several political reforms and a democratically-elected executive and constituent assembly as goal. So it was a democracy that was already in the beginning brought to an end when the communist started their coup.

For sure Thailand is far away from the situation 1905-1917 in Russia, take it as an example isn't the best choice.

But Thailand is obviously in a deep crisis. And there is the danger that an extreme force with false promises grab the power and a group of corrupt politicians bring democracy to an end. They claim to bring the power to the people but actually steal it from them.

So i read the original post where the quote was taken from.

Thailand is divided, people hating each other. Insanity on all sides. One side may win the election, but it is not a solution for real problem. Like the mob on the street the MPs will fight each other in parliament, instead of working together for the good of all people. Elections aren't about to declare victory of one side. No more selfish politicians with vested interests

One day in every 4/5 years to cast a vote isn't enough. Liars hijacked the system and abuse their power and hand out false promises and free candies to the electorate to get re-elected. The so called fight against corruption or class war are just bully attacks at the political opponent. At the wrongdoings of the own side politicians turn a blind eye.

Thailand needs a reform, a reform that is similar to what the PAD called New Politics. The concept is not bad, nor anti-democratic. The pressure and activities of the PAD wasn't maybe the best moves to introduce the idea of New Politics, but that should be not a obstacle to rethink and review the concept of New Politics and its capability to provide a solution and bring the country forward and the people together.

A reform concerning how the National Assembly will be composed and to amend the selection process of the representatives. The goal is that the people will select the honest and the righteous amongst them. Carefully selected Mp we can trust. Carefully selected diligent ministers who can shoulder the responsibility. Carefully selected wise leader with no other intention than to serve the King and the country and do good for all people.

A government the people respect - that is democracy.

[Briggsy]

Ah, so the army do use live ammunition despite all the lame denials.

[Traxster]

'Red Shirts' leader Nattawut Saikuar is quoted as saying ,we will fight to the death'.

You can bet your sweet patootie that it's not his death he's talking about.

[waza]

I still believe after all I have read and heard, that this isn't a popular uprising, or a civil war its a hostile takeover of the Thailand corporation.