Thailand To Consider Amnesty For Red-Shirts Leaders

[Crushdepth]

If the law isn't enforced then there is no law, and no incentive to follow it either.

I agree the police and army are a huge part of the problem - they don't seem to concerned about following the instructions of the government. But given the quality of Thai politicians...perhaps its understandable.

Ultimately it all boils down to the fact that Thailand has crap governance. Nothing will change until they have a system that enforces accountability and punishes those who break the law.

Giving an amnesty to red/yellow leaders or to politicians dismissed for electoral fraud is not exactly a good start.

[ChiangMaiFun]

I would prefer that all of them get the book thrown at them for what they have done over the last few years, I just don't see Sondhi in prison overalls for one second, and wouldn't bet against any of them on all sides absconding if it became apparent that they would actually have to suffer the will of the law.

I bet right now the leaders of the PAD are paying some pretty close attention to the outcome of any potential amnesty deal. As ridiculous as it may seem, people of this ilk tend NEVER to go to jail in Thailand. Let's see if anything has changed in Thailand under Abhisit.

Yes, TIT and people can and do get away with murder here. The wife and I probably got one of the last planes out of swampy before they closed it, but we had to make it all the way back to CM from Phuket by train. I said at the time that the means did not justify the ends and the manner in which Abhisit came to 'power' left him with a poisoned inheritance. Yes I agree justice should be consistent for all, however I remember the police did very little to stop the PAD occupying the airport when I saw with my own eyes there were enough police there to stop them if they chose to act.

Abhisit's roadmap is fair enough, but simply having an army that marched to the same tune and a police force who were accountable would solve the majority of the problems, but this may take a generation to achieve.

good post

[siampolee]

Red-Shirts leader Veera announced that protesters could go home once PM Abhisit announces the House dissolution

This comment from Veera brother number 2 would seem to indicate that possibly the rank and file demonstrators are possibly not free to circulate as they may wish.

This may well lead people to think that they (the Red Shirt Brigade rank and file) might be being held against their will

Edited May 5, 2010 by siampolee

[Steely Dan]

If the law isn't enforced then there is no law, and no incentive to follow it either.

I agree the police and army are a huge part of the problem - they don't seem to concerned about following the instructions of the government. But given the quality of Thai politicians...perhaps its understandable.

Ultimately it all boils down to the fact that Thailand has crap governance. Nothing will change until they have a system that enforces accountability and punishes those who break the law.

Giving an amnesty to red/yellow leaders or to politicians dismissed for electoral fraud is not exactly a good start.

Tried looking up worldwide governance Indicators on wikipedia. You can see Thailand does have a problem here - look at the coloured map. Indeed the Countries colour coded pink are the only ones that fare worse and for some reason they seem to tally remarkably well with Thaksin's travel itinerary for the last year or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Governance_Indicators

[h90]

Red-Shirts leader Veera announced that protesters could go home once PM Abhisit announces the House dissolution

This comment from Veera brother number 2 would seem to indicate that possibly the rank and file demonstrators are possibly not free to circulate as they may wish.

This may well lead people to think that they (the Red Shirt Brigade rank and file) might be being held against their will

I think the people don't get the payment if they leave before.

Not a hostage situation but if you sit there with your family (say mum, pa, wife, child=5person) for 30 days already: 5*30*300Baht=45.000 Baht which no one want to loose just because the left 1 day too early.

would be interesting if these people get paid at the end or if the money goes into the leaders pockets.

[siampolee]

h90.

I think the people don't get the payment if they leave before.

Not a hostage situation but if you sit there with your family (say mum, pa, wife, child=5person) for 30 days already: 5*30*300Baht=45.000 Baht which no one want to loose just because the left 1 day too early.

would be interesting if these people get paid at the end or if the money goes into the leaders pockets.

Would be interesting if these people get paid at the end or if the money goes into the leaders pockets.

Now the above one line quote is the crux of the matter.

Will equality and fairness rule or will the paymasters apply the '' cream off as much as we can corruption factor'' ?

The rank and file supporters of the Red Shirt Brigade and their leaders brothers 1-4 will be able to see the principles of the movement in its true light.

It may well prove to be a little cloudy in the long term scenario.

Edited May 5, 2010 by siampolee

[elcent]

I realized that key people, guards and a few others get paid daily in case they have to go underground because of their crimes committed. Well thought out plan. - NOT! - Exposed! This will be one of the evidence provided to courts I think.

[elcent]

ouch! that must hurt

found on CNN home page just now ...

Forget Phuket, there are now other Asian tourist hotspots to consider. Hainan, Marinduque, Phu Quoc and the Ho Tram Strip are being touted by developers and local governments as Asia's next major tourist destinations. FULL STORY

[h90]

h90.

I think the people don't get the payment if they leave before.

Not a hostage situation but if you sit there with your family (say mum, pa, wife, child=5person) for 30 days already: 5*30*300Baht=45.000 Baht which no one want to loose just because the left 1 day too early.

would be interesting if these people get paid at the end or if the money goes into the leaders pockets.

Would be interesting if these people get paid at the end or if the money goes into the leaders pockets.

Now the above one line quote is the crux of the matter.

Will equality and fairness rule or will the paymasters apply the '' cream off as much as we can corruption factor'' ?

The rank and file supporters of the Red Shirt Brigade and their leaders brothers 1-4 will be able to see the principles of the movement in its true light.

It may well prove to be a little cloudy in the long term scenario.

I hope they cream off as much as possible! That would mean less supporter in the April riot 2012.

[SpoliaOpima]

Red leaders have gone on record saying they don't want amnesty. To accept amnesty would be to admit they were anything but peace-loving democrats.

[jdinasia]

lalala you're obsessed with Thaksin - it's not all about Thaksin - change the record pleeeeze...

Your right. This is not about Taksin. This is about Taksin, money, power, greed and whoever will step into his shoes next.

That's right - I said it's not ALL about Thaksin - someis obviously - it's all about the elite hanging onto their power and riches like the good Buddhists they are!

Huh? The Red side is certainly all about Thaksin. Thaksin is "elite" and trying to hang on to his corrupt political machine in the N and NE.

Your offensive comment about religion is duly noted.

You will note that Abhisit's plans are not about helping the 'elite' hold on to power. Abhisits plans include real reform.

[TAWP]

so when will PAD people be prosecuted for occupying govt house for over 100 days, and the airport for 7 days ?

Or are double-standards still to apply ?

Don't hold your breath, dude...how would the elite feel if double standards were reduced/eliminated? They'd suddenly start feeling less superior to those damned red shirted Isaan buffalos if they had to obey the same laws....it cannot be allowed to happen...

I'm not gonna hold your breath for the day you start using facts to support your delusions.

And in reply to the first quoted gentleman (using the term loosely): Several PAD-members are already charged and awaiting trial etc.

[kissdani]

That weird Aussie dude, Conor David Purcell, should have no amnesty either.

I think we all can agree on this.

What he did?

I think he was a farang who had the audacity to support the red shirts and go on their stage...supporting redshirts is a hanging offense according to the yellow blind crowd here on TVF....

Seems so, i watched the video, googled his name and still don't see much reason why other farangs chose to "attack" him this way. Sad people.

[jayboy]

AOT closed the airport when the yellows were still outside protesting only, the official who did it was a relative of Thaksin.

I made a facetious post recently about the closure of the airport, with a sarcastic take on the hypocrisy and lies of the yellow thugs.

However even my parody can't better the real thing - see above.

[brahmburgers]

Am I mistaken, or is all this talk about amnesty moot. Last I heard, Red leaders claim they're not going to ask for amnesty, and I haven't heard any offers from gov't. So why all this discussion about something that's a non-issue?

Has anyone but I mentioned the big clean-up that will need to happen? Plus, will there be charges for illegal dumping, and if so, who will be held responsible? And who will pay for the clean-up, .....municiple resources paid by taxpayers?

More than a few farang have been busted and fined 2,000 baht on the spot for allegedly dropping a cig. butt in the city (some of the bustees don't even smoke, but that's another story). If 2,000 baht is the going rate for a cig butt smaller than your little finger, than what's the fine for dumping 5,000 fuel covered tires in downtown bangkok. Just the fuel itself would be grounds for hazardous waste dumping charges - in any civilized country.

[kissdani]

I think he was a farang who had the audacity to support the red shirts and go on their stage...supporting redshirts is a hanging offense according to the yellow blind crowd here on TVF....

Seems so, i watched the video, googled his name and still don't see much reason why other farangs chose to "attack" him this way. Sad people.

Yeah, he is a very sad and pathetic individual.

...no money, no passport and survives on handouts from his Thai and foreign friends... claims to have done “quite extensive” work with the Australian Special Air Service Regiment (SASR)...claims a political science degree from the University of Western Australia...Australian Embassy, at least one source, has told the Bangkok Post to take this fellow’s story “with a big dose of salt,” and was also sure that he has “actually broken quite a few Thai laws“.

Just a low down illegal beggar trying to gain some attention, and has no business residing here if he is incapable of taking care of himself. If the embassy is correct in that he may have broken Thai laws, he should be put away just like others who illegally reside and break laws here. Do some time in the slammer, send him back to Australia with a stamp in his new passport reading "Persona non grata". No different than any other illegal who breaks laws.

http://saiyasombut.wordpress.com/2010/05/0...-david-purcell/

The first quote in your entry isn't from me, i never said that.

Purcell claims he have been injured by bullets on 10. April. Has that been disproved?

He argues it was wrong by the army to shot into the crowd, i think he is not wrong here.

Why not take what he has said into consideration and discuss about that instead of starting a character assassination. That is low.

Maybe the people who say he is a fool are right and foreigners should better stay out of politics in Thailand. But this statement should be also valid for a lot of farangs here at TVF. Some comments here a full of hatred, rancor and totally out of place.

So for you, as foreigner yourself, a guest in Thailand, it is also not your business to judge about him. Why rant and rave about him? Take it easy, live and let live.

There are other things much more important. Like an investigation about the bloodbath of april, the ongoing restriction of civil liberties ...

[kissdani]

I haven't seen the PAD asking for amnesty at all .... in fact, the law may side with them on almost everything brought against them. I have seen Thaksin and Amnesty mentioned together often -- including a petition for exactly that. You blaming the PAD for 27 deaths is kinda silly.

Oh BTW --- you missed 20 PAD deaths and 1 unexplained death during the last days at Government house and the tie the PAD was at the airport.

You also missed the redshirt that died on Sept 1st/2nd when the reds attacked the PAD

You also missed the man that was beaten then murdered in Chiang Mai when the reds pulled him from the car.

There are several more ....

20 Pad deaths? Have you a source for it?

Since jdinasia doesn't answer and give some sources for his information i have to repeat my question: can anyone else share the facts?

I am not denying that there was violence during the PAD protests and people died, but the number of 20 PAD death seems to high to me, exaggerated.

[ChiangMaiFun]

lalala you're obsessed with Thaksin - it's not all about Thaksin - change the record pleeeeze...

Your right. This is not about Taksin. This is about Taksin, money, power, greed and whoever will step into his shoes next.

That's right - I said it's not ALL about Thaksin - someis obviously - it's all about the elite hanging onto their power and riches like the good Buddhists they are!

Huh? The Red side is certainly all about Thaksin. Thaksin is "elite" and trying to hang on to his corrupt political machine in the N and NE.

Your offensive comment about religion is duly noted.

You will note that Abhisit's plans are not about helping the 'elite' hold on to power. Abhisits plans include real reform.

JD I have been a practising Buddhist for 25 years so this comment is satire - they are not Buddhists at all is the point! don't try your little, nasty tricks again to get people in trouble - you stopped now keep it stopped - if you want to discuss 'why' they are a million miles from Buddhist ideals I can debate that forever but keep your little 'tricks' out of it please.

[chantorn]

AOT closed the airport when the yellows were still outside protesting only, the official who did it was a relative of Thaksin.

I made a facetious post recently about the closure of the airport, with a sarcastic take on the hypocrisy and lies of the yellow thugs.

However even my parody can't better the real thing - see above.

In short, Thaksin close the airport, and not PAD. If h90 is correct.

Anyway, I heard that Thaksin is dead AGAIN. This time is for real.

Edited May 6, 2010 by chantorn

[animatic]

Defending civil liberties and rights is not a crime but a duty for every citizen.

Abhisits abuse of power needs to be investigated and punished accordingly. That is it.

You are right again but come to the wrong conclusions .. again. If you keep this up you might have me thinking that you are a bit more red than Weng

Abuse of power? I have certainly seen that in Thailand. In fact Thaksin was found guilty of it. Defending civil liberties? Abhisit has done that. Then again Thaksin got a brutal insurgency rolling in the South. Thaksin is responsible for the extra-judicial killings of 2700+ Thais. (Isn't right to life the first civil liberty, followed by the right to freedom from unlawful imprisonment and then the right to a fair and speedy trial? 2700+ Thais killed without a trial!)

Abhisit, on the other hand, was calm and patient and reasonable even when the protest leaders spoke out for violence, sedition, treason .......

Forget the 10. April massacre, the unconstitutional censorship?

Why talking about Thaksin here? Is he the excuse for everything? Another strawman attack.

No strawmen facing your scarecrow of irrelevant posts.

"I could wile away the hours

Conferrin' with the flowers

Consultin' with the rain

And my head I'd be scratchin'

While my thoughts were busy hatchin'

If I only had a brain"

Thaksin directed or inspired multiple massacres far outweigh the April 10 events,

and the deaths and injuries of April 10th were primarily caused by Red siding elements.

If the Ronin/Black warriors hadn't started in with war weapons few would have been seriously hurt or killed.

And the Reds were breaking the law to fight back against a riot squad tasked with clearing a public square.

No abuse of power here, your are clutching at straws not men.

Censorship was much worse under Thaksin. And he sued and/or economically threatened many papers of record

to silence true stories about things he didn't want coming to light, like airport runway cracks.

Oh and what we see now seems to be constitutionally done, if not 100% matching some other nations practice.

Lets not forget the invasion of The Nation compound by Thaksin inspired proto-Red thugs,

who held the whole staff hostage for a day. Oh but they were just freedom fighters right... all good fun.

Your whole basic concept is predicated on a falsehood, so your conclusions are equally false.

Give it a rest, we are NOT buying what you are selling.

[animatic]

I haven't seen the PAD asking for amnesty at all .... in fact, the law may side with them on almost everything brought against them. I have seen Thaksin and Amnesty mentioned together often -- including a petition for exactly that. You blaming the PAD for 27 deaths is kinda silly.

Oh BTW --- you missed 20 PAD deaths and 1 unexplained death during the last days at Government house and the tie the PAD was at the airport.

You also missed the redshirt that died on Sept 1st/2nd when the reds attacked the PAD

You also missed the man that was beaten then murdered in Chiang Mai when the reds pulled him from the car.

There are several more ....

20 Pad deaths? Have you a source for it?

Since jdinasia doesn't answer and give some sources for his information i have to repeat my question: can anyone else share the facts?

I am not denying that there was violence during the PAD protests and people died, but the number of 20 PAD death seems to high to me, exaggerated.

Many sources includign Bangkok Pundit, Chaing Noi, Nation BP, Matichon and many others, including

most all papers of record in both language. Plus copious amounts of links and disccusion at the time in TVF.

Forget this, he hasn't shown me links, so it never happened argument.

It was common public knowledge. If you weren't looking then,

it's not jd's responsibility to educate you now.

Edited May 6, 2010 by animatic

[jdinasia]

I haven't seen the PAD asking for amnesty at all .... in fact, the law may side with them on almost everything brought against them. I have seen Thaksin and Amnesty mentioned together often -- including a petition for exactly that. You blaming the PAD for 27 deaths is kinda silly.

Oh BTW --- you missed 20 PAD deaths and 1 unexplained death during the last days at Government house and the tie the PAD was at the airport.

You also missed the redshirt that died on Sept 1st/2nd when the reds attacked the PAD

You also missed the man that was beaten then murdered in Chiang Mai when the reds pulled him from the car.

There are several more ....

20 Pad deaths? Have you a source for it?

Since jdinasia doesn't answer and give some sources for his information i have to repeat my question: can anyone else share the facts?

I am not denying that there was violence during the PAD protests and people died, but the number of 20 PAD death seems to high to me, exaggerated.

Many sources includign Bangkok Pundit, Chaing Noi, Nation BP, Matichon and many others, including

most all papers of record in both language. Plus copious amounts of links and disccusion at the time in TVF.

Forget this, he hasn't shown me links, so it never happened argument.

It was common public knowledge. If you weren't looking then,

it's not jd's responsibility to educate you now.

18 killed in grenade attacks against the PAD at Government House and the airport --- that you are unaware of this pretty well clears up any lingering suspicions about you being concerned about deaths in Thailand due to political issues, particularly if those deaths can be laid at the feet of Sae daeng and the Reds.

It only seems high to you for a reason ..... either the reason is that Samak and Somchai (mostly Somchai) made sure you didn't hear about it much in governent press .... or a distinct bias on your part

[Arkady]

Am I mistaken, or is all this talk about amnesty moot. Last I heard, Red leaders claim they're not going to ask for amnesty, and I haven't heard any offers from gov't. So why all this discussion about something that's a non-issue?

Has anyone but I mentioned the big clean-up that will need to happen? Plus, will there be charges for illegal dumping, and if so, who will be held responsible? And who will pay for the clean-up, .....municiple resources paid by taxpayers?

More than a few farang have been busted and fined 2,000 baht on the spot for allegedly dropping a cig. butt in the city (some of the bustees don't even smoke, but that's another story). If 2,000 baht is the going rate for a cig butt smaller than your little finger, than what's the fine for dumping 5,000 fuel covered tires in downtown bangkok. Just the fuel itself would be grounds for hazardous waste dumping charges - in any civilized country.

The red shirt leaders announcement that they didn't want any amnesty because they wanted to be able to prosecute government leaders and officials over the events of 10th April when they are in power (and being attacked by terrorists will be made a crime??!!) was clearly only for adrenaline pumping show on the red shirt stage. They are actually feverishly negotiating in secret for a blanket amnesty, which is why they are making feeble excuses for staying put, e.g. the date of the dissolution which is already known within 15 days. I think Abhisit has to restrict amnesty to charges regarding illegal assembly under the SOE. Without that they should arrest all the demonstrators as they leave the rally which would be pointless. Charges relating to terror and LM will have to stay (at least until Phuea Thai gets into power and squashes them). Otherwise Abhisit will be rejected by his own party, let alone the yellows, the multicolors and some factions in the army.

[whybother]

Many sources includign Bangkok Pundit, Chaing Noi, Nation BP, Matichon and many others, including

most all papers of record in both language. Plus copious amounts of links and disccusion at the time in TVF.

Forget this, he hasn't shown me links, so it never happened argument.

It was common public knowledge. If you weren't looking then,

it's not jd's responsibility to educate you now.

When did all these people die? While part of organised protests, or over the years in individual incidents?

I have found and seen reports of maybe up to 5 dead, but can't find anything about the numbers you are talking about.

[jdinasia]

That's right - I said it's not ALL about Thaksin - someis obviously - it's all about the elite hanging onto their power and riches like the good Buddhists they are!

Huh? The Red side is certainly all about Thaksin. Thaksin is "elite" and trying to hang on to his corrupt political machine in the N and NE.

Your offensive comment about religion is duly noted.

You will note that Abhisit's plans are not about helping the 'elite' hold on to power. Abhisits plans include real reform.

JD I have been a practising Buddhist for 25 years so this comment is satire - they are not Buddhists at all is the point! don't try your little, nasty tricks again to get people in trouble - you stopped now keep it stopped - if you want to discuss 'why' they are a million miles from Buddhist ideals I can debate that forever but keep your little 'tricks' out of it please.

Your claims aside --- your remark about religion was offensive. Taken with your claims it is doubly offensive.

[SomTumTiger]

No amnesty for Red and Yellow. Let the Thai Justice Dept. move at turtle speed, and when the guilty are convicted, let them flee the country, as is the normal Thai reaction. Imagine, getting rid of of all those knuckleheads. What a blessing.

[mazeltov]

Many sources includign Bangkok Pundit, Chaing Noi, Nation BP, Matichon and many others, including

most all papers of record in both language. Plus copious amounts of links and disccusion at the time in TVF.

Forget this, he hasn't shown me links, so it never happened argument.

It was common public knowledge. If you weren't looking then,

it's not jd's responsibility to educate you now.

When did all these people die? While part of organised protests, or over the years in individual incidents?

I have found and seen reports of maybe up to 5 dead, but can't find anything about the numbers you are talking about.

+1

I am also missing the reports that include the numbers the boys here talking about.

Have you ever seen that Animatic or jdinasia back up their 'facts'? No, also not in this case because they can't.

The number is far to high. Team yellow at this board handle their figures in a lose way and 'generous'. Hyperbole is their hobbyhorse.

Whybother, good to see, that you enquire here additional information 2 for this doubtful claim. That gives you credibility. you are far from coming under suspicion to be one of the "paid red propaganda trolls" and you are not one of the usual suspects and coloured internet partisans who regularly attack and bully only one side, but close their eyes at discrepancies or blatant lies as long it supports their 'fight' or support and defend every BS of their comrades.

[ChiangMaiFun]

That's right - I said it's not ALL about Thaksin - someis obviously - it's all about the elite hanging onto their power and riches like the good Buddhists they are!

Huh? The Red side is certainly all about Thaksin. Thaksin is "elite" and trying to hang on to his corrupt political machine in the N and NE.

Your offensive comment about religion is duly noted.

You will note that Abhisit's plans are not about helping the 'elite' hold on to power. Abhisits plans include real reform.

JD I have been a practising Buddhist for 25 years so this comment is satire - they are not Buddhists at all is the point! don't try your little, nasty tricks again to get people in trouble - you stopped now keep it stopped - if you want to discuss 'why' they are a million miles from Buddhist ideals I can debate that forever but keep your little 'tricks' out of it please.

Your claims aside --- your remark about religion was offensive. Taken with your claims it is doubly offensive.

You have PURPOSEFULLY mis-read my comment which I stand by 100% - it is offensive to me that these rich and powerful people call themselves 'Buddhist' - but you show you have not the slightest knowledge about Buddhism and it's ethics.

That apart, the fact you are offended knowing your posts and your delight in tricking people (as you are doing here yet again by purposefully misreading my post) I am not the slightest disturbed.

[jdinasia]

Nothing misread about it -- and now that you are attacking my personal beliefs you are stepping further and further over the line.

[brahmburgers]

Am I mistaken, or is all this talk about amnesty moot. Last I heard, Red leaders claim they're not going to ask for amnesty, and I haven't heard any offers from gov't. So why all this discussion about something that's a non-issue?

Has anyone but I mentioned the big clean-up that will need to happen? Plus, will there be charges for illegal dumping, and if so, who will be held responsible? And who will pay for the clean-up, .....municiple resources paid by taxpayers?

More than a few farang have been busted and fined 2,000 baht on the spot for allegedly dropping a cig. butt in the city (some of the bustees don't even smoke, but that's another story). If 2,000 baht is the going rate for a cig butt smaller than your little finger, than what's the fine for dumping 5,000 fuel covered tires in downtown bangkok. Just the fuel itself would be grounds for hazardous waste dumping charges - in any civilized country.

The red shirt leaders announcement that they didn't want any amnesty because they wanted to be able to prosecute government leaders and officials over the events of 10th April when they are in power (and being attacked by terrorists will be made a crime??!!) was clearly only for adrenaline pumping show on the red shirt stage. They are actually feverishly negotiating in secret for a blanket amnesty, which is why they are making feeble excuses for staying put, e.g. the date of the dissolution which is already known within 15 days. I think Abhisit has to restrict amnesty to charges regarding illegal assembly under the SOE. Without that they should arrest all the demonstrators as they leave the rally which would be pointless. Charges relating to terror and LM will have to stay (at least until Phuea Thai gets into power and squashes them). Otherwise Abhisit will be rejected by his own party, let alone the yellows, the multicolors and some factions in the army.

Thanks Arkady, for substantiating what I assumed. In other words, it would be wholly understandable if the Red Shirt leaders are negotiating feverishly behind closed doors for certain types of amnesty. Simultaneously, they can strut on their stage and claim they're not asking for it, but that's probably just show.

Certainly, scum like Seh Daeng and Kwanchai know they're going to be in deep doo doo, so expect them to hide away from authorities.