This Is Why I Did Not Have A Pre- Nup

[cognos]

CAVEAT: Firstly, this is NOT about judging those farang ( negatively) in the vast MAJORITY that have pre- nups with their Thai wives..its like the right wing Arabs and the Jews.. both will go to their grave ABSOLUTELY convinced that they are "right"..you with pre- nups are as "right" in your mind as I am in mine.

.. those of you ( the majority) that have a pre- nup with their Thai wives are " positive" they made the right decision, and in my case, NOT having a pre-nup was ABSOLUTELY the right decision. I thought about having one..here's why I did not : ( NOTE: btw..My assets are over 40 million baht.. not a rich guy, but doin' okay)

1. The Golden Rule, treating others as you would wish to be treated..so for me that means..if I had no assets, I would not ask my wife for a pre-nup either. This argument is simple.. if YOU have a pre- nup and you live by the Golden Rule, it will be assumed that if your wife had all the assets and you had little or none, you would ask for a pre- nup, to protect HER assets, just as you NOW protect yours in case of a divorce. Fair is fair eh?

2. Taking the plunge means just that, putting someone's interests ( like your wife eh?) ABOVE your own. My Dad taught me this, and told me if you can't do that, NEVER get married, but just enjoy the single life.

3.As a Thai Christian, my wife would NEVER get a divorce from me UNLESS I abused her by..screwing around ( which would be all down hill after the lustful climax..I thought about it.. came close, and came to my senses) or emotional/ physical abuse towards her.. it ain't gonna happen..

4.To me, Love and business are like oil and water, they do NOT mix..a business is like when you HIRE a woman to take care of your needs, and then you move on when you are ready.

5. To this writer, a pre- nup PRE SUPPOSES and PLANS for the eventuality, or possibility of divorce. If the divorce rate is 50%, I CHOOSE to see the glass as half full, not half empty. I planned to be married ONCE, and thats what will happen. I am as certain of that as YOU are that a pre- nup was right in your case.

6.Love is unconditional in my books, so I don't need a conditional approach in the form of a pre- nup. A pre- nup MAY just make it easier to bail when inevitable problems arise, big or small.

7. Many Thai women will ( reluctantly, or is it with glee?) accept a pre- nup, as it may be a better alternative than no marriage at all. I feel sorry for women that sign the pre- nup, even though in most cases it affords them some measure of security, as the husband will, in most cases look after them well.

..I say go big or go home, take the plunge, and love her to death until death do you part. In my case, I had no idea the wife actually had assets until well after the marriage, as she "forgot" to tell me she has 4 acres of land in Phuket, at about 500,000 baht per.. this makes no difference to me, as we all know it is HER land. Even if it was half mine, and it isn't, who cares?

signed: you can't take it with you eh?

[lannarebirth]

I think your basic premise is wrong, therefore everything you extrapolated from it is likely wrong too. I doubt 1:10 people getting married here have a pre nuptial agreement. It just isn't necessary in most cases as assets aquired prior to marriage are not community property.

Edited May 5, 2010 by lannarebirth

[gotlost]

4 acres ? 2.5 rai per acre is 10 rai. You say 500,000 per that's 5,000,000 baht. That mite get you a bar.

[bonobo]

Post deleted and warning sent for personal flaming.

Agree or disagree with a poster or ignore the thread, but leave off the personal attacks, please.

Thanks.

[GuestHouse]

There's only one flaw in the OP's thinking.

The Game's Not Over Yet.

[samuibeachcomber]

getting a pre nup to protect your wealth from your wife if things fall apart are now a sad fact of life,and each to their own.In this world today, relationships and marraige more often than not do not last,its just a sad fact as most of us fall under secular lives where the religious rules are not adhered to for the sake of selfish motives.So if i had a lot of material wealth here in thailand(which i do not)i would like to protect it,because once its gone its hard to get back.

[sarahsbloke]

I didn't get a pre-nup either, but then my only assets in Thailand are a motorcycle, tv and computer.

All purchased before the marriage, and not that big a loss in worst case scenerio anyway.

Only invest in Thailand, what you are prepared to lose!

[hoohoo]

There's only one flaw in the OP's thinking.

The Game's Not Over Yet.

i guess op doesnt see ladys fogetting to tell him about her wealth as something significant.

the ladys thinking is prolly whats hers is hers and whats the farangs will be mine too(at least a part of it).

im sure mr mccartney had the same same list as op as to why not to have a pre nup! sounds all so good at the beginning of the marriage!

and all this, after all mr cognos witty posts. kinda ruins my image of him

[wileycoyote]

No pre-nuptial agreement.

I think that in the act of arrangment ,it sows seeds of suspicion.

[flying]

It just isn't necessary in most cases as assets aquired prior to marriage are not community property.

They are in this USA Well I should add for instance....You own a property before your married.

Years later get divorced. Your wife is entitled to half of what it appreciated while you were married.

That said if I felt I needed a pre-nup I would have never gotten married... Yes I am old enough to know & have assets

[anothertorres]

how do you know you are in the minority? from reading crap like Thai Visa and the blokes you've met at the go-go bar? come on now, let's talk about weather or something...

[bendejo]

One marriage I had in the US turned out to be a disaster. After a few months she was convinced I did it only to get her money.

She conveniently forgot that it was MY idea to get a pre-nup. I had never asked her what she was worth -- I knew she was middle-class but not rich. She, on the other hand, was always trying to get info on my finances (she probably knew anyway from snooping through my files). If I was looking for a woman with money she would have been a poor choice.

Live and learn.

[Zstarx]

I'm sorry you are wrong, I've got about the same amount of assets as you, I'd like to leave a reasonable amount to my Falang children, rather than have an Australian court tell me how my money would be divided, in the event my wife divorced me.

It really is as simple as that.

[purplehaze]

Ah the female of the species.

[anothertorres]

shock shock, horror horror.

[Tracer Round]

I was struck by the idea that this is something Thailand-specific, which it isn't. Next I thought, "40 million baht and he thinks he's not rich. Yeah, right... Take the average wage of a Thai worker (say, 6,000 baht a month) and do the math and you will find that it would take her (him) 555 years to make that much money. Yes my friend, perhaps you are not rich back in Monaco, but in Thailand you are Bill Gates rich."

Of course I am sure this woman wants to be with you because you are a swell guy, not because you are a millionaire, but this idea of, "...if I had no assets, I would not ask my wife for a pre-nup either," is silly. Of course you wouldn't need one then.

I might point out one thing here. Many people not in the legal profession misunderstand contracts. They seem to think that all contracts are one-sided. The fact is that a properly formed contract signed by both parties (which presumes that both have read, understood and agreed upon the terms) is a benefit to BOTH sides. Everyone knows at the outset what is what and there is no chance, for example, that the man will, in his waning months, create a last will and testament leaving everything to his favorite ferret, Pauline.

[MSingh]

shock shock, horror horror.

Great Song..

OP, you hit the nail on the head with one word in the title, minority..

Life's all about majorities & minorities in everything..

The majority of Crocodiles will eat you, the minority won't..

The majority of Sharks won't eat you, the minority will..

The majority of Western Men that come to Thailand " looking for love " get absolutely fleeced, the minority don't..

[BlackArtemis]

Thai Christian wife

She owned a home and a car

she made over 25k/monthly

hel_l I have a degree in Human Development and Family Sciences, a big fancy word for relationships and marriage

Educated family, majority of family have MA's etc etc

and we still have a prenup.

I in no way look at it as a get out free card, I didn't marry her with plans on divorcing, but I have many reasons for getting a prenup, furthermore a prenup doesn't indicate whether you love somebody less or more.

I would have gotten one no matter who or where I married.

Funny story, I broke up a girl before/during my study abroad program here in Thailand. She refused to ever sign a prenup if we were to get married. So since she was upset that I called it off (not over the prenup issue) she slept around with mutual acquaintances, sold off some of my things, and had my car been in her/our name she claimed she would have gotten rid of it just to piss me off. So here is a girl while in "love" saying she would never take me for all I'm worth etc etc so we don't need a prenup, but the second things went south she did as much as she could to strike back.

This is a reoccurring story all over the world, cross cultural and economical boundaries.

[torrenova]

Someone hit the nail on the head with the term that in Thailand, the OP is Bill Gates rich. At least amongst his wife's family.

You see all those guys getting robbed of 5 baht (100k) gold necklaces and they just don't know why ? well I answer like this. If you earn 5k a month post tax (ok, I know there is no tax on 5k a month but the principle remains) then you have the chance to rob a foreigner who your peers and authorities tend to look upon as a fool to be fleeced and your reward is 20 months salary and if you are caught, a 1 in 1000 chance at best, you can probably do a deal with the police and maybe still get some of your ill gotten gains from them as well as being let off, then many would do it. In the west, if you earn $5000 a month, not a high salary, and you could do the same and get $100,000 with a near zero chance of getting caught and you could also get nigh on $100,00 for it, not some 25c on the $1 pawn off, then you go think about how many people would not seriously consider doing that for $100,000 ?

Ratchet that up to a degree which you cannot imagine. If Bt5000 = $5000 then that $1m = $30,000,000 and the OP is worth about $40,000,000 in relative terms, then you go think about just what you would do for $40m back home ?

Then say you are a good guy or girl but your extended family are not all perfect. I guess if my sister married a guy who had $40m then I would think she hit the jackpot big style. Even in the west, many would hope for a handout. In Thailand, half the village would want a handout and the begging from extended family would be massive.

This is just to try and put everything in perspective. The OP is Bill Gates rich in Thailand and for sure he hab money too mutt.

Blindly stating that his wife will not divorce him because she is a christian is like walking through a minefield blindfolded. Some will get through but most will be blown away.

Roll the dice and see what comes up.

[tgw]

hello Cognos - may I ask you how old you are?

[sarahsbloke]

Bilbobaht says

It's been by life-long experience that a pre-nup will you do no good in court, she'll hire a good lawyer, and you'll get the bill. There are many ways to crack a pre-nup. Enough said. They're just another way for lawyers to make money on the front end of a divorce.

It's been my life-long experience that preventing access to the western law system will prevent any legal bills. No Visa, no money.

In Thailand you have to pay your own legal fees up front.

[Koh_Falang]

I like your post Cognos...

Ide have to say that your 2nd point is the most important for me, otherwise dont bother getting married at all...

I think the couples that hold this particular moral standard the highest, will have the greatest chance of success...

Unfortunantly, I was married and am now seperated and it all came down to this point...

ohhh PS... she is Thai and she didnt 'fleece' me!!!

[bilbobaht]

Bilbobaht says

It's been by life-long experience that a pre-nup will you do no good in court, she'll hire a good lawyer, and you'll get the bill. There are many ways to crack a pre-nup. Enough said. They're just another way for lawyers to make money on the front end of a divorce.

It's been my life-long experience that preventing access to the western law system will prevent any legal bills. No Visa, no money.

In Thailand you have to pay your own legal fees up front.

Thail lawyers want the same as western, money up front, its called a retainer.

The difference between thai and farang court is that in thai the farang has a 100% chance of losing.

Smart thai-men ALWAYS pay there wife off at divorce, usually about 200,000 and 3,000 per child per month. Go to court and roll your own roultette wheel. Stay out of court in Thailand, and farang-land, ... go to court, ... and you lose ALL.

In a pre-nup you MUST disclose all, they prove in court that you hid somthing then they can break the pre-nup, we all hide shit. There are an infinite number of ways to break a pre-nup.

In western court they generally always favor the women so its a rigged game, in Thailand they never favor the farang so its a rigged game.

It's lose-lose.

Solution? Don't ever get married.

[sarahsbloke]

Thail lawyers want the same as western, money up front, its called a retainer.

My point being in the western world a woman can always get no win, no fee, legal aid, etc. She doesn't need up front money.

In Thailand the lady needs big money before she even starts .... so often never starts.

In Thailand if the lady has the money to go to court, you can just move to Cambodia, etc., no way to chase you or enforce any court decision.

The normal Thai man after a breakup, moves out, never pays a dime towards the upkeep of his 10 children (unless he wants to)

But may return occasionally for sex.

Thailand is one of the financially safest countries in the world for a man to to get married in. No obligation towards wife and children (unless you the obligation)

Edited May 6, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[bilbobaht]

Someone hit the nail on the head with the term that in Thailand, the OP is Bill Gates rich. At least amongst his wife's family.

You see all those guys getting robbed of 5 baht (100k) gold necklaces and they just don't know why ? well I answer like this. If you earn 5k a month post tax (ok, I know there is no tax on 5k a month but the principle remains) then you have the chance to rob a foreigner who your peers and authorities tend to look upon as a fool to be fleeced and your reward is 20 months salary and if you are caught, a 1 in 1000 chance at best, you can probably do a deal with the police and maybe still get some of your ill gotten gains from them as well as being let off, then many would do it. In the west, if you earn $5000 a month, not a high salary, and you could do the same and get $100,000 with a near zero chance of getting caught and you could also get nigh on $100,00 for it, not some 25c on the $1 pawn off, then you go think about how many people would not seriously consider doing that for $100,000 ?

Ratchet that up to a degree which you cannot imagine. If Bt5000 = $5000 then that $1m = $30,000,000 and the OP is worth about $40,000,000 in relative terms, then you go think about just what you would do for $40m back home ?

Then say you are a good guy or girl but your extended family are not all perfect. I guess if my sister married a guy who had $40m then I would think she hit the jackpot big style. Even in the west, many would hope for a handout. In Thailand, half the village would want a handout and the begging from extended family would be massive.

This is just to try and put everything in perspective. The OP is Bill Gates rich in Thailand and for sure he hab money too mutt.

Blindly stating that his wife will not divorce him because she is a christian is like walking through a minefield blindfolded. Some will get through but most will be blown away.

Roll the dice and see what comes up.

In the west if your sister married a rich guy, he wouldn't hand it out to the village.

Rich folks get rich by keeping their money.

Most farang who go to thailand have as much brains about money as the women they marry. Hence these guys 'lose their money'.

Thailand poor think that you should spend all your money today, and don't worry because you'll always find more tomorrow.

Rich people get rich by not spending money.

Poor thai, and real rich people, are incompatible. I think only a fool is compatible with an average poor thai.

Even if you marry a rich woman in Thailand, she should only know about 10% of your wealth, so lets say you got $1M USD, that means she knows you have $100,000 that is 3M baht, that's often to retire and live comfy for life so you tell her and stick to your plan, but be prepared to lose all that money, but its MORE than the average thai will ever see.

For the average DUMB farang to come to Thailand and DUMP more than $100K USD in a village ( 3M baht house ... ) is insane, as all the money will be lost.

I still hold that MOST farang who come to THAILAND are poor. If your under 50 and you come to thailand and your not retired your making a big mistake. Make your money in farangland, and play later smart. If your over 50 and retired, and you don't have $100k to lose, I think the girl is going to be very dissapointed.

Over the haul the 1M baht sin-sot, and 200,000 tung-mun is chump-change, its ONLY the price of entry. When you meet a girl, and want to HOLD during during the pre-marriage you must hold her with TUNG-MUN, same as the WEST its called engagement. When you MARRY her you must pay mother, cuz they know in all probability the marriage will fail, and the sin-sot is to take care of her after you become bored of her. Thai man have to pay SAME.

My thai wife, her sisters husband had to pay the same as me, and his family paid the money. I wish we really didnt' have to argue about sin-sot here, its a mute issue to me. I married a thai-chinese family that is RICH. You pay for beauty, education, and family .... When I first decided to get involved I said the same thing "I WILL NOT PAY SIN-SOT". By the time I meet my wifes mother and the mother started the sin-sot at 2M, I got her down to 1M, besides I was told they money would be used as a down-payment to build an apartment complex for the wife,and the project has already started, and their plan is that this will be income for life of my wife. Her sister already has an apartment complex, and it came the same way by sin-sot. The cash-flow from the complex pays the MTG. I think its a dam_n good plan, beause in effect the wifes income in the long term comes from the apartment complex and NOT me.

The 200,000 baht tung-mun was just a bracelet that stays in a box, with other GOLD thais like gold. When I told the family I was goin to marry the girl they wanted proof that I was serious, so that cost $5,000 USD, that bought ten-baht of gold. This goes to the girl, and if you bail on her she can turn to cash. Thai men must do the same. In farangland an engagement ring will cost you more money.

It's my mind that to play the thai game you should have at least $1M USD, and only let them on to $100,000 USD, keep your 90% in an offshore account, never let anybody know. Tell everyone your POOR. If you tell a thai how much money you have REAL they're pre-conditioned to get you to spend all your money.

To me $1M USD is NOT rich, ... but then I'm RICH, but then I know MOST farang who come to THAILAND are poor for real. That they can hardly afford to play this game.

It's game. But I want to live here, and I want to be part of a good family that I respect. Also my family is a non-drinking family there is NO booze. I save a ton of money by not being surrounded by drunks.

It's always seems to me that most farang are drunks.

Good thai women don't drink, smoke, or gamble, or butter-fly, but they expect the same from their man. I think this is why the MAJORITY of farang on TV or in BKK or PATTAYA will NEVER see or know or come close or marry a 'good thai woman'.

love,

[seedy]

I can understand where you are coming from. As a Hopeless Romantic, I feel the same way about marriage.

Altho I can also see the other posters opinions, which can be summed up by the Latin - Si vis pacem, para bellum.

What would I do ? For Better or Worse, Romance would win.

I guess that is where the 'Hopeless' comes in, eh ? He - He

[bonobo]

3.As a Thai Christian, my wife would NEVER get a divorce from me UNLESS I abused her by..screwing around ( which would be all down hill after the lustful climax..I thought about it.. came close, and came to my senses) or emotional/ physical abuse towards her.. it ain't gonna happen..

This is not a personal dig at your wife nor you.  I don't know either one of you and it would be pretty arrogant to assume anything about you.  But...

The US is full of Christians, and 50% of all marriages there end in divorce.  So unless there is something special about the Thai brand of Christianity, that argument, as stated,  doesn't hold water.

And while you may intend never to stray, and you may in fact not, statistics show that about 85% of men do stray.  I would hazard a guess that most men tell themselves that they won't when they get married, but nature takes its course later on.  

I can see your points on pre-supposition and such.  And I wish you the best.  But your reasoning I quoted above is faulty, I think.

[toptuan]

Your reasoning is Biblically-based and has stood the test of centuries. The Bible is like an operator's manual--pragmatic in the purest sense. One read through Proverbs, alone, will impress one with that principle.

The US may be full of Christians, but few read the Bible regularly, and even fewer follow its precepts.

Edited May 6, 2010 by toptuan

[bonobo]

Your reasoning is Biblically-based and has stood the test of centuries. The Bible is like an operator's manual--pragmatic in the purest sense. One read through Proverbs, alone, will impress one with that principle.

The US may be full of Christians, but few read the Bible regularly, and even fewer follow its precepts.

I am not quite sure what your point is here.  Whether Christians (and the only reason that was brought up was because of the OP's reasoning) in the US or Thailand follow the Bible, go to church, lead good or bad lives, or whatever is irrelevant.  The point is, that merely because someone is of a certain affiliation, unless there are verifiable statistics that people of that religion do not divorce, then contending that they won't divorce because of that religious affiliation is faulty reasoning.

If the OP stated that his wife has a deep personal aversion for divorce, or that her family won't accept a divorce, or whatever personal reason there might be, then no one here can gainsay that. Only the OP knows his wife.  But to attest that Christians don't divorce because of their religion is really not a valid argument.  They do all the time, just as people of other religions divorce.

[JSixpack]

There's only one flaw in the OP's thinking.

The Game's Not Over Yet.

i guess op doesnt see ladys fogetting to tell him about her wealth as something significant.

the ladys thinking is prolly whats hers is hers and whats the farangs will be mine too(at least a part of it).

im sure mr mccartney had the same same list as op as to why not to have a pre nup! sounds all so good at the beginning of the marriage!

and all this, after all mr cognos witty posts. kinda ruins my image of him

Agreed. Not letting him know so that he'd think she was poorer and give more at the beginning. Lack of full disclosure. What's next? The old husband?

Another "it can't happen to me, mine's different" story.