Nightmare At Samui Immigration

[parallaxtech]

There is a government information line: 1111, where you can also get information about immigration from immigraiton officers. If you have question you can always call them and they will assist you.

Mario: All you can eat at McDonalds on me! I will sleep better tonight because of your research. Thanks, mucho!

[My Friend Same]

A fund book is a cash account that earns .75% interest and all money can be withdrawn the next day -- has nothing to do with stocks or bonds.

wow 250 baht per month on that 400K. Hey look, the Samui guy was just giving you the rules. You hardly need a lawyer to come in there and tell those immi guys the rules. no doubt they got pissed off. I dont blame em

[My Friend Same]

I suspect that the IO has made a mistake but having made the "go back to the US" remark I doubt if he would be mindful to rectify his error. Probably he didn't take kindly to your lawyer putting him right.

Yes correct, he made the poor immi guy lose face. no need to do that. Who need a lawyer for a simple extension anyway

[happylarry]

Thanks, CH, but Americans and muslims aren't really a good mix these days. I'm here now and it looks nice. The people are all kind. I left a beachfront home in the Cayman Islands in 2004 because several American friends of mine were killed there, and I've invested a considerable amount of money on a house and land here. There's no utopia. I love many things about Samui, but this incident has absolutely boiled my blood. If they ever try to arrest me under false charges or someone takes a shot at me, I will definitely consider a move.

May I enquire how you have invested money on your house and land here if you are so above board about everything you do.

Do you have a dormant company or is it in your wife's name, in which case you must have signed to say the money was not from you.

Either way if you have property here then it is underhand somehow, so how can you say you are 100% honest.

HL

Edited May 10, 2010 by happylarry

[My Friend Same]

The OP's problem has nothing to do with his original OA visa - which has been pointed out, expired several years ago. His problem is to do with the inexplicable thinking of the IO in Samui when processing his extension.

Thanks, JS, correct. I never raised my voice, followed all the rules, had much more money than they required, and they were as mean to me as a policeman would be if I had killed his partner. I pleaded with them, "What do you suggest or what can I do?" They said get out of the office and go home! I am really surprised that there is nobody to contact in Bangkok to report this. My lawyer asked for his name, but he refused to give it. When I asked him why they had changed the rules about the 800KB not having interest, he just said it was his rule. My lawyer said he wouldn't have given me an extension no matter how much I had in the account. I emailed bangkok IMM last year, no reply. I called them today and they just said I have to work with the rules in KS since I live here.

You always seem to be talking about money money money. Somewhere you rubbed this guy wrong and he's showing that your money can't buy you the extension. I bet if I walked in there, I'd get the extension because I am a super polite guy

[LivinLOS]

You do not have an OA visa and what you get from immigration is never an OA visa - so yes you can just leave at any time before your current extension of stay expires and apply for a single entry non immigrant O visa at a nearby Consulate and return for a 90 day stay on that and extend at the end of that for a normal one year for retirement.

I would take 400k out now and put with your passbook account (or more if you need to use) and keep that over 800k for 2 (or 3 if they will not treat as first extension) and apply for new extension near end of new 90 day entry. If you do transfer before your current extension ends you should be safe for both 2 or 3 month requirement. And expect having a lawyer is not a good idea as retirement is a very simple process and policy often do not appreciate, or suspect something amiss, when a lawyer appears.

Thanks, I think I will take this option. So, let me see if this is correct. My extension expires this Sunday so I will leave tomorrow for Malaysia and request an O visa that should be good for three months. I have already transferred the 800KB into a non-interest account so that will be no problem. At the end of three months do I go to Samui Imm and ask them to extend to a normal one year retirement visa?

I took my lawyer with me because each year they ask for a bribe and I don't like dealing under the table when I've done nothing wrong. This year they were just plain mean!

Well theres the answer.. Personally I just pay the token 'fees' and have an easy life.. Simpler and cheaper than all this visa running, new visa, and doing it in 3 months.

Yes its corrupt.. Welcome to Thailand.

[LivinLOS]

You have told us you obtained extensions of stay for the last few years so you do not have a valid non immigrant OA visa. Such a visa expires one year from date of issue in your home country.

Your the expert on this..

But would an 'extension' not extend the same type of visa class ?? I would have assumed (dangerous I know) that a B extension extends a B visa, an O extension extends an O visa and an O-A extension extends an O-A visa ??

Yes the initial visa as issued has expired but the extensions keep it alive so to speak.

Is this thinking incorrect ??

[LivinLOS]

I didn't want to open another can of worms or serpents in this case, but here goes. I didn't mention that for the past five years they have looked at my same interest-bearing accounts and approved it without question. However, each time Mr. N__t asked for a bribe. The first time he did it by stating that the visa fee had gone up to 6,000B. I just smiled and handed him 1900B. The next year he said he needed an extra 5,000B because he needed to see if I had a record with Interpol. The next year he said they had me under surveillance for working without a permit and I needed to pay an extra 5,000. I was looking forward to seeing what the next excuse was, but he and the rest of them are gone, most likely scalping in another region. The new guy just declines your extension and most likely expects you to offer whatever or get a visa bandito to offer the money. Everyone needs to realize that bribing a government official is illegal everywhere. He might give you a visa, but he might also not enter it on the computer and, guess what, you are then facing a prison term. You have no invoice from him, so have no proof. In fact he might arrest you on the spot. Read Samui Express this month where people paid the travel agency to get their visas and are now facing four years in prison. Things are not getting better here, so everyone be careful.

Theres a huge difference between paying to get your stamps from immigration and paying a 3rd party for bent stamps..

What happens when in 3 months they invent another reason to not issue it ??

The fact you have history with them, and are playing the stickler is why your getting the run around.. Theres ways to live here, and quoting the letter of the law, dragging along useless laywers, and wanting it all receipted is not how to have it smooth.

[lopburi3]

Visas are only used as a letter of invitation to enter the country - at the door you are either provided entry (permitted to stay stamp) or sent packing. Once inside Thailand if you want to stay longer you extend that permitted to stay stamp with a valid reason (there are many - listed in police order 777/2551). In most cases these extensions of stay only require that you had a valid non immigrant visa entry (type not defined) and it extends your permitted to stay time. It does not renew or extend a visa - you can not leave and return - any travel would require a re-entry permit as you would not have a valid visa (from the extension of stay).

[PoorSucker]

Your the expert on this..

But would an 'extension' not extend the same type of visa class ?? I would have assumed (dangerous I know) that a B extension extends a B visa, an O extension extends an O visa and an O-A extension extends an O-A visa ??

Yes the initial visa as issued has expired but the extensions keep it alive so to speak.

Is this thinking incorrect ??

You don't extend your visa.

You get extension of stay based on marriage or retirement.

I entered Thailand on a Non-B visa and have now extension of stay based on marriage.

[My Friend Same]

Indeed, this is a troubling post, in particular because OP's extensions had been approved using essentially the same documentation in previous years.

So, the suggestion that this is the policy of a newly-arrived chief of the Samui IO would be consistent with the different treatment OP experienced.

However, the idea that the new IO chief won't approve interest-bearing accounts would mean that almost every retiree on Samui using the 800K method would not be approved for their next extension application. Or that bribes are required for retirement extension -- which I've never seen reported on this Forum for any IO.

I think it is important for the Forum to get some sort of confirmation of what is going on in Samui since OP's experience is really out of line from what others have been reporting at other IOs.

Bingo

there's just so much of this story that just doesn't add up. Lawyers, bribes, savior agents etc. I'm not buying it that's for sure. I don't know anyone being forced to pay bribes alone or thru "lawyers" for extensions anywhere in this country

[My Friend Same]

Sorry, with the "lawyer act" you stepped on someones foot - it's not much liked over here to bully someone who is used to being asked nicely, wai'ed and respected, without question!

You can sue your MP back home... but here treat nicely PLEASE!

Shame more and more people who wish to live here think that the people and their customs here have to follow them,

because they have the dosh... or something like this.... get real folks - I live here for 20 years NO problem, ever!

Even on the Immigration, everyone who knows me greets me friendly, every time... anytime, since ever!

They don't "have to" - farang has!

Very simple equation!

Amen, and you are a guy right on the scene down there. Thank you for your post on what you experience

[Rooo]

Bingo

there's just so much of this story that just doesn't add up. Lawyers, bribes, savior agents etc. I'm not buying it that's for sure. I don't know anyone being forced to pay bribes alone or thru "lawyers" for extensions anywhere in this country

You might not know anyone,you obviously haven't been on Samui. You can write a book. But we have to be careful what we say. Or maybe leaf through this thread, you will find stories over the years. They have had a very long honeymoon.

[Rooo]

Sorry, with the "lawyer act" you stepped on someones foot - it's not much liked over here to bully someone who is used to being asked nicely, wai'ed and respected, without question!

You can sue your MP back home... but here treat nicely PLEASE!

Shame more and more people who wish to live here think that the people and their customs here have to follow them,

because they have the dosh... or something like this.... get real folks - I live here for 20 years NO problem, ever!

Even on the Immigration, everyone who knows me greets me friendly, every time... anytime, since ever!

They don't "have to" - farang has!

Very simple equation!

Amen, and you are a guy right on the scene down there. Thank you for your post on what you experience

Amen to what? Common sense? You are clutching at straws here. Do you think all retirees just walk in flashing dosh?

This has simply happened only to this OP. But I also think BUSINESS visa holders are not as exposed to this.

It was not out of the ordinary to be asked 5,000.00 baht for a 1.900.00 extension.

[Lite Beer]

It is pretty well known on the Island that Samui Immigration have had their own interpretations as to what Immigration fees are for a long time.

Maybe if there is a new administration this will be a thing of the past.

Having said that I am still having difficulty understanding the problems the OP has been having with the simplest extension that there is.

Usually Immigration go out of there way to help as it the easiest for them also.

[LivinLOS]

Visas are only used as a letter of invitation to enter the country - at the door you are either provided entry (permitted to stay stamp) or sent packing. Once inside Thailand if you want to stay longer you extend that permitted to stay stamp with a valid reason (there are many - listed in police order 777/2551). In most cases these extensions of stay only require that you had a valid non immigrant visa entry (type not defined) and it extends your permitted to stay time. It does not renew or extend a visa - you can not leave and return - any travel would require a re-entry permit as you would not have a valid visa (from the extension of stay).

Again let me emphasize, I am asking because I want to know, not to argue with you, your depth of knowledge on this is far greater than mine.

But not all permission to stays are the same.. If I have an O-A visa, which gets me a permission to stay (which I can extend) I cannot get a work permit, on a B Visa, with a B Visa permission to stay, which I can extend, I can get a work permit.

A friend on an O-A extension who wanted to work was told he had to leave the country, get a B visa, return with a new visa and permission to stay, and that would then be used. This is why I looked at the permission to stay and extension of same to be visa specific.

Whats wrong with my thinking.

[Lite Beer]

An extension of permision to stay would be for a reason.

Retirement. Marriage to a Thai National. Employment. Education . Etc.

It would depend on the reason for the extension of your temporary permision to stay.

[parallaxtech]

I went to the Thai Embassy today in KL to get my non-immigrant O visa based on retirement. I was asked to provide proof that there was 800KTHB in a Thai bank so I pulled out ONLY the Fund Book account from SCB (the one rejected by KS Immigration). It was all approved without question. I then asked the consular officer if I could move my money into another Thai Bank with a higher interest rate. He said that as long as the funds were liquid (not put into stocks, mutual funds, or bonds) the interest rate was totally up to me. This was what I suspected all along, anyway, but now I have confirmation so I can pursue it when I get back on Wednesday in KS. I have also been in touch with a consular friend in the US Embassy Bangkok who is eager to hear the outcome of this. If they are arbitrarily refusing extensions to US retirees, Bangkok Immigration will receive an official letter from the Embassy demanding an explanation. So stay tuned as it is far from over.

At least we now know that their rejection of my Extension was bogus -- the interest rate has no bearing on whether the 800KTHB is acceptable or not.

[thaiphoon]

One post removed - keep to topic.

[thaiphoon]

parallaxtech: You have my sympathy based on your posts, because what is being reported is out of line to what we have seen before at Samui immigration. Note, however, that Thai embassies and consulates come under the control of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs whereas immigration offices are part of the Immigration Bureau (Royal Thai Police) - two seperate departments with different processes and procedures, and generally the requirements (including financials) to obtain a visa are less onerous than applying for extension of stay at Thai immigration. Just be careful not to compare apples with oranges.

[parallaxtech]

I suspect that the IO has made a mistake but having made the "go back to the US" remark I doubt if he would be mindful to rectify his error. Probably he didn't take kindly to your lawyer putting him right.

Yes correct, he made the poor immi guy lose face. no need to do that. Who need a lawyer for a simple extension anyway

You might not have seen the previous posts. The lawyer came in at the very end after everything else had been exhausted. When someone has done something to me that I suspect is illegal or unlawful, I don't scream or fight, I just call a lawyer. And if he fails, I take the next steps, which I'm pursuing now.

[parallaxtech]

parallaxtech: You have my sympathy based on your posts, because what is being reported is out of line to what we have seen before at Samui immigration. Note, however, that Thai embassies and consulates come under the control of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs whereas immigration offices are part of the Immigration Bureau (Royal Thai Police) - two seperate departments with different processes and procedures, and generally the requirements (including financials) to obtain a visa are less onerous than applying for extension of stay at Thai immigration. Just be careful not to compare apples with oranges.

Thanks, I didn't know that. What I think you are saying is that the financials are discretionary, so if one officer doesn't like your money in XYZ Bank, he can refuse your request for extension. This might be the answer, then, that it is all subjective -- one man's 800K might not be the same as the next man's. If you read what Mario posted previously, upon request, they must provide a reason for the declination in writing. I will be requesting that this week. I want to do this so everyone is clear about it, and the next time I go in, I have exactly what is required.

[My Friend Same]

Did you get a 1 year visa or 3 months?

[thaiphoon]

The financial requirements for issue of extension of stay (by Thai immigration) are clearly defined in Police Order 777/2551. What seems to be the issue is over "interpretation" of a type of account. The requirements for visa issue by Thai embassies/consulates vary by embassy/consulate, including financial requirements. Yes by law immigration should provide a reason for declining to issue extension of stay in writing.

[lopburi3]

The OP original problem seems to have been his use of fixed deposit accounts (which had previously been allowed) and not having the 800k in the more normal passbook savings account. That this was accepted in the past is no guarantee it will be accepted now and people had been refused in the past at some locations when trying to use this method. As even marriage extension are now having the requirement of applicant name only on account (where joint account had been accepted in the past) do not see this as that much out of line. Believe there was a misunderstanding on the "no interest" as suspect that was to mean "no fixed deposit" (if that was the account presented - I am still thrown by the "fund book" as have never seen such a name used on a passbook savings or fixed deposit account here. Now OP is making the suggestion they may be "arbitrarily refusing extensions to US retirees"? Am not sure how one case becomes a class action without any other such reports being made.

An official explanation of refusal is what we should be looking for rather than tilting at windmills.

[samuibeachcomber]

No offence to the poster,but it sounds to me his attitude or the way he replied to the imigration office on the day re 'getting his lawyer"was what undid him too.The only way to be is humble in these offices.

[thedivezone]

A fund book is a cash account that earns .75% interest and all money can be withdrawn the next day -- has nothing to do with stocks or bonds.

wow 250 baht per month on that 400K. Hey look, the Samui guy was just giving you the rules. You hardly need a lawyer to come in there and tell those immi guys the rules. no doubt they got pissed off. I dont blame em

Right, MyFriendSame, if you go into Immigration with all the correct paperwork and get refused by the Officer on some "unwritten" rule, you don't blame the Immigration Officer, either, right ?

You'll probably say that the fault lies entirely with yourself, right ?

[frankman]

paid the tea money since 9 years and suddently change of rules, ok followed the new rules, paid again and got my visa. simple! if in thailand do as the thais do. they too , have to pay any land official under the table to just do their regular job for land upgrade etc. ...

Edited May 11, 2010 by frankman

[parallaxtech]

The OP original problem seems to have been his use of fixed deposit accounts (which had previously been allowed) and not having the 800k in the more normal passbook savings account. That this was accepted in the past is no guarantee it will be accepted now and people had been refused in the past at some locations when trying to use this method. As even marriage extension are now having the requirement of applicant name only on account (where joint account had been accepted in the past) do not see this as that much out of line. Believe there was a misunderstanding on the "no interest" as suspect that was to mean "no fixed deposit" (if that was the account presented - I am still thrown by the "fund book" as have never seen such a name used on a passbook savings or fixed deposit account here. Now OP is making the suggestion they may be "arbitrarily refusing extensions to US retirees"? Am not sure how one case becomes a class action without any other such reports being made.

An official explanation of refusal is what we should be looking for rather than tilting at windmills.

Lop: I think what will solve this whole matter is tomorrow when I return to KS I will have the SCB manager call the Immigration Office asking for clarification on what types of bank accounts that are acceptable, as he has many clients on Fund Book accounts and needs to advise them to move out of them if it's a problem with Immigration. The SCB Fund Book account that was rejected has a variable interest rate (3.75 in 2006 and .75 now), but the cash can be withdrawn within one day without penalty. I really don't see much difference between that and a regular account other than you have to wait one day for your money. I can understand their concern over some fund accounts where the money can't be removed until one year. That's why I had the bank manager speak to him and explain it was a cash account like any other. I remember one comment he made was , "We don't want farangs investing and collecting interest, but rather spending most of the money in the account and replacing it with another 800K."

You might have missed the crux of the problem for me. I will put the money into any bank or account that Immigration desires if those are the rules for everybody. I am simply against any officer who has had a bad day and decides to make up a poor excuse to refuse my extension. If my bank manager learns tomorrow that all Fund Book accounts are not acceptable, I will be very happy. This will tell me that I was not singled out, which is what has concerned me all along.

I received my non-imm O visa today, so tomorrow we will see how many months Samui Airport Immigration grants me.

[parallaxtech]

Right, MyFriendSame, if you go into Immigration with all the correct paperwork and get refused by the Officer on some "unwritten" rule, you don't blame the Immigration Officer, either, right ?

You'll probably say that the fault lies entirely with yourself, right ?

Exactly! If you go into Immigration and they say no extensions for British people what do you do: a. Offer a bribe; b. Go for his throat; or c. Ask for clarification?

This was how I felt. His reason didn't make a bit of sense to me. That was why I went on TV to see if it was happening to others. And thanks to some good people out there I'm beginning to understand it wasn't just me. See Lop's message above where others were rejected for having similar bank accounts. Those of you banking with SCB look at your savings book and make sure it doesn't have "Fund Book" on it.