Clashes Continue, Turning Central Bangkok In Virtual Warzone

[seahorse]

the Reds seem to be self destructing and there only hope may be a complete revolution (hope this is not the case but unless they are stopped this may be their ultimate goal).

Isn't it obvious yet that this is what they are aiming for?

No. If there is one thing that is clear it is that a revolution is not part of the agenda.

Class war has been a feature of the language used, but that is merely a smokescreen in front of the primary aim.

Restoration of Thaksin and control over the armed forces is the objective.

The current rampage by the reds is Thaksin's throwing over of the agreed deal.

That deal failed his target.

He is all in.

It is NOT clear. Please explain how this is clear.

Thaksin wants to run Thailand as a dictatorship. That would be a revolution. The Issan Rouge are his revolutionary army.

[DongFangHong]

Am utterly appalled at the reds. They had such sympathy a month and a half ago, now they are just a bunch of criminals working for their master Thaksin to the detriment of the entire nation. Disgusting.

OK. However, I can't understand any civilized person having any sympathy for them at all after Pattaya Asean and Black Songkran.

The only ones that have sympathy for them are the reds themselves - like their fan club here - time for negotiation is over and I hope the government realizes that the only way to win this is to go full out and destroy them once and for all

This is the attitude and opinion from a real fascist! 

[Publicus]

American democracy is the best democracy money can buy.

So true.

More clowns with nothing to say (not to try to insult clowns).

And your point is?

Actually I was making a point about American "democracy."

As long as we're talking about democracy, let's talk about Germany, Australia, Brazil, Taiwan, France, Japan, Singapore - oh yeh, the UK too....Netherlands as with Japan and the UK are constitutional monarchies..why not them as well?

Clowns with nothing to say who are obsessive compulsive against the United States. The US anyway is on a couple of other threads....better to take it there IMO.

[schmutzie]

Why are the reports in the thai media so different from that in the world media?

"Three journalists, one of them a Canadian with the France 24 television channel, were shot and wounded covering the unrest, underscoring the risks facing media in the capital, where a Japanese cameraman was killed last month."

Nelson Rand, a reporter who was covering fighting between troops and protesters for France 24, was hit by three bullets from a military assault rifle and "gravely wounded", his network reported. Thai news reports he was hit in the hand????????

"The army had warned Thursday it would deploy snipers around the Reds' protest site" Are the snipers for the media to stop the real story comming out or to systymatically pop of civilians?

"The prostesters threw stones and fireworks at the troops as the two-month standoff descended into more violence". "The soldiers... had no choice but to respond to these attacks," Panitan told a news conference, adding that troops were authorised to use live ammunition in self-defence, for warning shots or against armed gunmen.

At one point troops fired directly at protesters and then advanced up a road, shooting into the air, according to an AFP reporter. STONES V'S LIVE ROUNDS yes that's an even match (<deleted>)

"Abhisit has already started civil war," top Red Shirt Nattawut Saikuar told reporters.

"We urgently demand the government withdraw the military and stop all violence," he said. "I don't know how we can survive tonight if Abhisit does not agree to a ceasefire. We hope that Abhisit does not want war."

The incident has generated a lot of comments on talk back radio in Australia and it appears that the international community is opposed to the actions of the government and the yellow shirts some calling it straight out murder of civilians by troops.

It doesn't matter which side you support red or yellow you would have to agree that the actions taken by the government is way over the top and has tarnished the reputation of Thailand in the eyes of the world. I also believe that the latest action has destroyed the tourist industry to a point of almost wiping it out.

I think the foreign media reports fail dramatically to report the complexity of the protest and the political workings of Thailand.

It's convenient for them to simply report it as a stand off between "poor reds" and the "urban elite" or yellows.

As well as "sticks and stones" versus "guns, tear gas and rubber bullets".

And where the hel_l are all these reporters when there aren't troops on the streets in Bangkok?

As for Thai media, they appear to be utterly unable to dig beyond whatever truth they're fed by either side. Always stating the glaringly obvious.

Hard questions do not seem to be part of their arsenal.

I can only talk for the English language Thai media though.

[humfurry]

Dozens of taxis blocked the Din Daeng exit of the elevated expressway at 5:30 am Saturday.

The taxi drivers, who support the red-shirt movement, fear that troops would be deployed to crack down on the red-shirt protesters at the Din Daeng Intersection, using the expressway.

Protesters stopped burning tyres at Din Daeng intersection but tension remained high as protesters and troops continued to confront each other there.

Meanwhile, police set up a checkpoint at the Victory Monument.

The Nation

It took me 5 1/2 hours to get home last night... I'm glad it's not a work day.

Who's running tactics for the red shirts now that Seh Daeng is ...well, pretty much dead? Maybe he wasn't the "brain" after all. Well, obviously he wasn't.

Probably some other bird brain...

[Publicus]

Dozens of taxis blocked the Din Daeng exit of the elevated expressway at 5:30 am Saturday.

The taxi drivers, who support the red-shirt movement, fear that troops would be deployed to crack down on the red-shirt protesters at the Din Daeng Intersection, using the expressway.

Protesters stopped burning tyres at Din Daeng intersection but tension remained high as protesters and troops continued to confront each other there.

Meanwhile, police set up a checkpoint at the Victory Monument.

The Nation

It took me 5 1/2 hours to get home last night... I'm glad it's not a work day.

Who's running tactics for the red shirts now that Seh Daeng is ...well, pretty much dead? Maybe he wasn't the "brain" after all. Well, obviously he wasn't.

Probably some other bird brain...

Dead brain.

[seahorse]

As long as we're talking about democracy, let's talk about Germany, Australia, Brazil, Taiwan, France, Japan, Singapore - oh yeh, the UK too....Netherlands as with Japan and the UK are constitutional monarchies..why not them as well?

Clowns with nothing to say who are obsessive compulsive against the United States. The US anyway is on a couple of other threads....better to take it there IMO.

I didn't bring the US version of democracy into it. No nation has a true democracy. Americans are gullible enough to believe theirs is. They are also very sensitive about criticism. FWIW IMO Germany is the best model I have seen.

[brahmburgers]

Dozens of taxis blocked the Din Daeng exit of the elevated expressway at 5:30 am Saturday.

The taxi drivers, who support the red-shirt movement, fear that troops would be deployed to crack down on the red-shirt protesters at the Din Daeng Intersection, using the expressway.

Protesters stopped burning tyres at Din Daeng intersection but tension remained high as protesters and troops continued to confront each other there.

Meanwhile, police set up a checkpoint at the Victory Monument.

The Nation

It took me 5 1/2 hours to get home last night... I'm glad it's not a work day.

Thanks for the 'on the scene' update. Also, why has ThaiVisa not had an update on their news coverage for over 4 hours?

It never ceases to amaze me how farangs on thaivisa seem to think they know best about thailand and how to deal with thailands problems.

Call me a presumptuous ass if you want, but I do think I know best about Thailand - at least some of the time. I also know that most Thais do not know how to deal with Thailand's problems. If in doubt, look at the current dire problems in Bkk. I, and others on this forum, had pleaded with authorities to take dynamic action (to disperse the rowdies, or at least try to keep a lid on their military style build-up) weeks before the poop hit the fan. Instead, the PM and his top general kept sticking with the softly softly approach, and look where it's gotten us.

Continue to be amazed BK, and I'll continue to be a Monday morning quarterback or armchair general, whichever fits the moment.

[sibeymai]

Stick and stones versus machine guns ? Hardly.

If you fire a gun at an armed soldier why be surprised if the soldier fires back at you ?

As for the comments being made on Australian talk back radio.....try shooting at a policeman anwhere in Australia and see what the respone from the authorities is. It's called "overwhelmng force".

Oz talk back radio is notorious for airing the uninfomed opinions of yobbos.

[LuckyLew]

I think the foreign media reports fail dramatically to report the complexity of the protest and the political workings of Thailand.

It's convenient for them to simply report it as a stand off between "poor reds" and the "urban elite" or yellows.

As well as "sticks and stones" versus "guns, tear gas and rubber bullets".

And where the hel_l are all these reporters when there aren't troops on the streets in Bangkok?

As for Thai media, they appear to be utterly unable to dig beyond whatever truth they're fed by either side. Always stating the glaringly obvious.

Hard questions do not seem to be part of their arsenal.

I can only talk for the English language Thai media though.

Foreign media are not anywhere to be seen when there is no violence

because there is nothing worthy here to report. People at home on other

countries do not care a but about Thailand, why would they?

There are enough troubles in their homelands to be worried about,

Greece failing, Euro falling, Oil spill of Coast of USA, UK elections ..

and on and on ... Thailand is the last thing they care about

They are paying attention because everyone likes to see a train wreck.

This was always an accident waiting to happen.

Why do people watch car racing ......... to see accidents

Why do people watch MMA or boxing ..... for the knock out

Take away the pending train wreck and the outside world could

not give a lick about Thailand

[ozzieman05]

This, incidentally, is why datum's solution of an election, while well-intentioned, won't work. For an election to work, the parties involved have to have some chance of accepting the outcome. In Thailand the loser is guaranteed to throw the switch the second they think they have a shot at reversing the result (whether they're successful or not). Until that changes, new elections won't help anything. Yellows, Reds, military - other institutions. None of them are interested in accepting any result other than their winning and they're prepared to use almost any means in order to realize their goal of reversing the result.

@ on-on

You give the solution yourself actually in what you are writing. You say: "For an election to work, the parties involved have to have some chance of accepting the outcome". OK, how the Thai government can work towards this? By postponing the elections and hiding the problem under the carpet? No. It can work towards this by going to the international organisations that belongs (UN, ASEAN, etc.) and say to them: "Look, I am paying my subscription to your organisations every year and now I want some services from you. I have a bit of a problem in my back yard and if I'll try to clean up the mess myself, the opposition will accuse me that I used a vacuum cleaner that was selectively sucking red garbages only and it was leaving the yellow garbages at their place. Can you please give me a color-blind vacuum cleaner to clean up the mess? I need also you to convince the red and yellow flowers that your vacuum cleaner is the right one and it will suck both the yellow and red garbages."

This option (int it's political correct form) has been proposed to the Thai government by an very credible international body but it has not been accepted. And for me this is another evidence that the government just want to avoid elections at any cost.

In all of your posts you've gotten at least one fact wrong. I'll just address this latest one. The government is not postponing elections at all. Election are due in Jan/Feb of 2012. The government offered to move elections up to November 2010, the Red Shirts agreed. They subsequently reneged on that agreement and the offer was withdrawn. The PM CANNOT call new elections simply because any group threatens violence if he doesn't. That would be a pretty bad precedent, don't you think?

Goto the top of the class for intelligence

I se the Borg have not gotten to you yet

and you can still see the facts as they really are

[brucehosking]

there is no need for "negotiations" with these war mongers at this point, round them up and punish them. they are keen on burning buses and inciting violence.

when I passed through the area about 1:00 pm I could feel the tension in the air. happy I got outta there in time before it really started up. Man oh man are the supporters just a bunch of filthy scrubs. you have to seem 'em and then you can't deny.

What a fool you really are for going through that area today.

Another silly farang.

Im just waiting for pictures of drunk ones mingling with the reds and making us all look very stupid indeed.

I just watched a BBC video on the net and they interviewed an English guy who had joined the protesters and was with them in their camp - <deleted> now we have some idiot foreigner joining this rebellion - thats just what we need to turn the locals against the foreigners......who is this <deleted>?

[Ulysses G.]

It doesn't matter which side you support red or yellow you would have to agree that the actions taken by the government is way over the top and has tarnished the reputation of Thailand in the eyes of the world.

What B.S.

I had some sympathy for the redshirts until it began to be obvious that they were not willing to negotiate in good faith.

They have blown all credibility and shot themselves in the foot with sheer stupidity. Why should the PM even try to meet them halfway when they just slap him in the face?

I feel terrible that the army is attacking them, but they have left Abhisit with little choice. They need to be dispersed and if they do not do it willingly, then the consequences are of their own making.

They had what they wanted in their hands and they blew it. It is all so sad really.

[Paul123456]

Why are the reports in the thai media so different from that in the world media?

"Three journalists, one of them a Canadian with the France 24 television channel, were shot and wounded covering the unrest, underscoring the risks facing media in the capital, where a Japanese cameraman was killed last month."

Nelson Rand, a reporter who was covering fighting between troops and protesters for France 24, was hit by three bullets from a military assault rifle and "gravely wounded", his network reported. Thai news reports he was hit in the hand????????

"The army had warned Thursday it would deploy snipers around the Reds' protest site" Are the snipers for the media to stop the real story comming out or to systymatically pop of civilians?

"The prostesters threw stones and fireworks at the troops as the two-month standoff descended into more violence". "The soldiers... had no choice but to respond to these attacks," Panitan told a news conference, adding that troops were authorised to use live ammunition in self-defence, for warning shots or against armed gunmen.

At one point troops fired directly at protesters and then advanced up a road, shooting into the air, according to an AFP reporter. STONES V'S LIVE ROUNDS yes that's an even match (<deleted>)

"Abhisit has already started civil war," top Red Shirt Nattawut Saikuar told reporters.

"We urgently demand the government withdraw the military and stop all violence," he said. "I don't know how we can survive tonight if Abhisit does not agree to a ceasefire. We hope that Abhisit does not want war."

The incident has generated a lot of comments on talk back radio in Australia and it appears that the international community is opposed to the actions of the government and the yellow shirts some calling it straight out murder of civilians by troops.

It doesn't matter which side you support red or yellow you would have to agree that the actions taken by the government is way over the top and has tarnished the reputation of Thailand in the eyes of the world. I also believe that the latest action has destroyed the tourist industry to a point of almost wiping it out.

Why is the media coverage different?

The foreign media are trying to 'hype up' this event as much as they can. Their main aim is to sell papers / media space.

The local media are trying to inform the public of what is going on - their main aim is to keep the public informed in this time of crisis in their country.

Also note - the Thai speaking media has access to much much more info than English or other language media.

Or at least that is one way to look at it. Every media has it's biases. Some state controlled media in Thailand will obviously be used to push a government line. Red media push the Red line. Both sides push out propaganda for the media to soak up....

You need to see as much as possible, read between the lines and think for yourself - but I would suggest a heavier reliance on local media to foreign.

[Publicus]

As long as we're talking about democracy, let's talk about Germany, Australia, Brazil, Taiwan, France, Japan, Singapore - oh yeh, the UK too....Netherlands as with Japan and the UK are constitutional monarchies..why not them as well?

Clowns with nothing to say who are obsessive compulsive against the United States. The US anyway is on a couple of other threads....better to take it there IMO.

I didn't bring the US version of democracy into it. No nation has a true democracy. Americans are gullible enough to believe theirs is. They are also very sensitive about criticism. FWIW IMO Germany is the best model I have seen.

Yeh, that pal is the rub - you think Americans think __________________________________ (fill in the blank space in your head). Why don't you and others like you ask something once in a while...you presume to know more than you think you know. It's called bias and prejudice, not to mention ignorance and arrogance.

[selftaopath]

Soon we will have UDD protesters in every part of Thailand, not only Ratchaprasong and Silom.

I don't believe this lawless band of a criminal hiding out should be called protesters. Can we please use a more accurate term for them?

[redparrot]

16 people died last night, including 1 woman

[toenail]

Ok farangs, explain this to me... It seems many members on this forum are bad mouthing the (poorly trained) Thai military for doing a crack down on the Red protesters. Yes, there have been shootings from both sides. The Red protesters have been occupying parts of the capital city since March. They have disrupted local Thais from going to work or even losing their jobs due to businesses having to close. PM Abhisit (in a no win situation) offered new elections on November 14. The Reds would not accept the offer unless more demands were met. Here is my question: Would your country allow this kind of demonstration go on for months, cripling the capital city? All democracies have rules and ordnances for demonstrators to follow and once you go beyond the "guide lines" -watch out. (If you are American, think of Kent State or the Chicago Democratic convention in the 60's; if you are French, think of the Paris riots not too long ago.) -Heaven forbid if this kind of protesting was done in China.

When I see the military facing the angry protesters, I feel sorry for these guys; for, they look scared and in a situation they don't want to be in. I know it is the "Thai way" to not enforce city ordnances and rules (I am assuming there are city ordnances and "rules" when a group congregates to protest) but this is a good example where things get out of hand if you let protesters do what they want in the beginning -- allowing thousands to squat an area in the middle of the city to set up "camp".

[blaze]

WE live in a country where 'think too much' is a bad thing- where 'serious' means clinically depressed (him seriout too much- go hospital). Where children are taught to whom and how to kiss ass before they are taught to speak- where critical analysis of Thai culture ultimately leads to prison- where kriang jai and conflict avoidance are regarded as noble traits rather than the institutionalization of meekness and obsequiesness... where everyone is reminded daily that they are children of a loving father- where initiative is regarded as dangerous- how else could this have played out?

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for San Deng, and you curse the army. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That San Deng death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a dam_n what you think you are entitled to.

Did you order the Code Red?

You’re Goddamned right I did!!

Huh? Are you nuts? Or didn't bother reading my post before responding.?

[ozzieman05]

Soon we will have UDD protesters in every part of Thailand, not only Ratchaprasong and Silom.

I don't believe this lawless band of a criminal hiding out should be called protesters. Can we please use a more accurate term for them?

"I haven't committed a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the law.

[LaoPo]

As long as we're talking about democracy, let's talk about Germany, Australia, Brazil, Taiwan, France, Japan, Singapore - oh yeh, the UK too....Netherlands as with Japan and the UK are constitutional monarchies..why not them as well?

Clowns with nothing to say who are obsessive compulsive against the United States. The US anyway is on a couple of other threads....better to take it there IMO.

I didn't bring the US version of democracy into it. No nation has a true democracy. Americans are gullible enough to believe theirs is. They are also very sensitive about criticism. FWIW IMO Germany is the best model I have seen.

Yeh, that pal is the rub - you think Americans think __________________________________ (fill in the blank space in your head).

Why don't you and others like you ask something once in a while...you presume to know more than you think you know. It's called bias and prejudice, not to mention ignorance and arrogance.

...Mirror Mirror on the Wall....

LaoPo

[benthai98]

WE live in a country where 'think too much' is a bad thing- where 'serious' means clinically depressed (him seriout too much- go hospital). Where children are taught to whom and how to kiss ass before they are taught to speak- where critical analysis of Thai culture ultimately leads to prison- where kriang jai and conflict avoidance are regarded as noble traits rather than the institutionalization of meekness and obsequiesness... where everyone is reminded daily that they are children of a loving father- where initiative is regarded as dangerous- how else could this have played out?

Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for San Deng, and you curse the army. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That San Deng death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a dam_n what you think you are entitled to.

Did you order the Code Red?

You’re Goddamned right I did!!

Huh? Are you nuts? Or didn't bother reading my post before responding.?

hehe - "You can't handle the truth...!!!"

[JacknDanny]

Why are the reports in the thai media so different from that in the world media?

"Three journalists, one of them a Canadian with the France 24 television channel, were shot and wounded covering the unrest, underscoring the risks facing media in the capital, where a Japanese cameraman was killed last month."

Nelson Rand, a reporter who was covering fighting between troops and protesters for France 24, was hit by three bullets from a military assault rifle and "gravely wounded", his network reported. Thai news reports he was hit in the hand????????

"The army had warned Thursday it would deploy snipers around the Reds' protest site" Are the snipers for the media to stop the real story comming out or to systymatically pop of civilians?

"The prostesters threw stones and fireworks at the troops as the two-month standoff descended into more violence". "The soldiers... had no choice but to respond to these attacks," Panitan told a news conference, adding that troops were authorised to use live ammunition in self-defence, for warning shots or against armed gunmen.

At one point troops fired directly at protesters and then advanced up a road, shooting into the air, according to an AFP reporter. STONES V'S LIVE ROUNDS yes that's an even match (<deleted>)

"Abhisit has already started civil war," top Red Shirt Nattawut Saikuar told reporters.

"We urgently demand the government withdraw the military and stop all violence," he said. "I don't know how we can survive tonight if Abhisit does not agree to a ceasefire. We hope that Abhisit does not want war."

The incident has generated a lot of comments on talk back radio in Australia and it appears that the international community is opposed to the actions of the government and the yellow shirts some calling it straight out murder of civilians by troops.

It doesn't matter which side you support red or yellow you would have to agree that the actions taken by the government is way over the top and has tarnished the reputation of Thailand in the eyes of the world. I also believe that the latest action has destroyed the tourist industry to a point of almost wiping it out.

You are obviously another red shirt supporter!!! How do I know?? Because you lie, you distort reality, and to be fair you probably believe the nonsense you write.

STONES V's LIVE ROUNDS !!! ?????

Are you even watching the news, Have you seen what has been happening over the past few weeks. If you think the red shirt rabble are only armed with stones, you are either daft or naive or both!!

The international community are NOT opposed to the actions. I do not know what Australians are saying but they are not the international community.... only a very small part thereof.

I do not agree that the Govt actions are OTT. Quite the opposite. I think Abhisit has been more than patient (bordering on the ridiculous IMHO)

The latest action has not destroyed the tourist industry, however the illegal behaviour by the red shirt terrorists has certainly not helped.

The Govt needs to put a stop to this retarded behaviour, unfortunately people will be killed..... but they have had fair warning. Any red shirt that gets killed from here on in, has only themselves to blame... they should pack their bags and go home!!

[brahmburgers]

Security forces are a bit hamstrung in their assignment. They're not there to forcibly evict the protesters. Instead they're there to surround them / cordon them off, so new rowdies can't enter. It is hoped that protesters will see the futility of continuing their militancy. Though it's a minority of them who are actively sparring with the military, they're supported by the others of their group.

Perhaps CRES tactics will work, in that non-confrontational protesters will realize the party is over, and leave - in which case, only the rowdies remain. A key element is for CRES to stick with it, and not wilt away, as they did on April 10th.

Some reports say that protesters are not being allowed to leave - being kept at the site by more militant members of their group - either forcefully and/or by bullying (let's see if reporters can get inside and find the veracity of that). If true, it's more despicable than firing at soldiers. Meanwhile, the core question remains; WHAT ARE THEY REALLY FIGHTING FOR?

[moetownblues]

Why are the reports in the thai media so different from that in the world media?

"Three journalists, one of them a Canadian with the France 24 television channel, were shot and wounded covering the unrest, underscoring the risks facing media in the capital, where a Japanese cameraman was killed last month."

Nelson Rand, a reporter who was covering fighting between troops and protesters for France 24, was hit by three bullets from a military assault rifle and "gravely wounded", his network reported. Thai news reports he was hit in the hand????????

"The army had warned Thursday it would deploy snipers around the Reds' protest site" Are the snipers for the media to stop the real story comming out or to systymatically pop of civilians?

"The prostesters threw stones and fireworks at the troops as the two-month standoff descended into more violence". "The soldiers... had no choice but to respond to these attacks," Panitan told a news conference, adding that troops were authorised to use live ammunition in self-defence, for warning shots or against armed gunmen.

At one point troops fired directly at protesters and then advanced up a road, shooting into the air, according to an AFP reporter. STONES V'S LIVE ROUNDS yes that's an even match (<deleted>)

"Abhisit has already started civil war," top Red Shirt Nattawut Saikuar told reporters.

"We urgently demand the government withdraw the military and stop all violence," he said. "I don't know how we can survive tonight if Abhisit does not agree to a ceasefire. We hope that Abhisit does not want war."

The incident has generated a lot of comments on talk back radio in Australia and it appears that the international community is opposed to the actions of the government and the yellow shirts some calling it straight out murder of civilians by troops.

It doesn't matter which side you support red or yellow you would have to agree that the actions taken by the government is way over the top and has tarnished the reputation of Thailand in the eyes of the world. I also believe that the latest action has destroyed the tourist industry to a point of almost wiping it out.

Being in the middle of this mess I think I have to respond to this.

Every single time in the past 24 hours the grenades and gunfire were flying towards us from the south, where the red enclave is.

Sometimes, not always, there was shooting back, but usually only to receive more shooting and grenades from the red side.

What you are writing is as if the army started the shootout. Quite the contrary is actually true, at least in the area of Rajaprarop at the north of the camp.

Of course the red protesters portray themselves as peaceloving, unarmed, harmless poor things that just happen to be sitting there with foot clappers and bare hands to scare the army away.

In reality, all army has are the shotguns, while the peaceful protesters shoot at the soldiers using machine guns and M79 grenades.

You're welcome to come to Rajaprarop and count the black and white markings where all that grenades landed as well as bullet holes on the southern walls of the buildings.

Just the fact that civilians are for the past hour outside taking photos, fully exposed to the army behind them, but hiding from view from the south where redlands are should tell you something...

My point is that there are two versions of the events. The Thai media version and that given to the International community and which version is correct?

For example The Thai media reports that Nelson Rand the Canadian media person for France 24 was simply shot in the hand. (Many would interpret as a minor wound on the scale). On the other hand his network reports that he was shot three times and gravely wounded. (The grave is where we end up and to be gravely wounded that puts it at the top end of the scale) Who do we believe?

I don't know what is what in relation to Mr Rand only what has been fed to me by both medias. Now if it is proven that the Thai media have an incorrect version do I discredit everything they say and vice versa.

Let me put it another way. Just say you are in court giving evidence at a trial and part of your evidence is discredited found not to be fact. If so everything else you have said in the court even if it is true and factual will be discredited by a jury)

[phanu]

Ok farangs, explain this to me... It seems many members on this forum are bad mouthing the (poorly trained) Thai military for doing a crack down on the Red protesters. Yes, there have been shootings from both sides. The Red protesters have been occupying parts of the capital city since March. They have disrupted local Thais from going to work or even losing their jobs due to businesses having to close. PM Abhisit (in a no win situation) offered new elections on November 14. The Reds would not accept the offer unless more demands were met. Here is my question: Would your country allow this kind of demonstration go on for months, cripling the capital city? All democracies have rules and ordnances for demonstrators to follow and once you go beyond the "guide lines" -watch out. (If you are American, think of Kent State or the Chicago Democratic convention in the 60's; if you are French, think of the Paris riots not too long ago.) -Heaven forbid if this kind of protesting was done in China.

When I see the military facing the angry protesters, I feel sorry for these guys; for, they look scared and in a situation they don't want to be in. I know it is the "Thai way" to not enforce city ordnances and rules (I am assuming there are city ordnances and "rules" when a group congregates to protest) but this is a good example where things get out of hand if you let protesters do what they want in the beginning -- allowing thousands to squat an area in the middle of the city to set up "camp".

I agree...

[nexus99]

Ok farangs, explain this to me... It seems many members on this forum are bad mouthing the (poorly trained) Thai military for doing a crack down on the Red protesters. Yes, there have been shootings from both sides. The Red protesters have been occupying parts of the capital city since March. They have disrupted local Thais from going to work or even losing their jobs due to businesses having to close. PM Abhisit (in a no win situation) offered new elections on November 14. The Reds would not accept the offer unless more demands were met. Here is my question: Would your country allow this kind of demonstration go on for months, cripling the capital city? All democracies have rules and ordnances for demonstrators to follow and once you go beyond the "guide lines" -watch out. (If you are American, think of Kent State or the Chicago Democratic convention in the 60's; if you are French, think of the Paris riots not too long ago.) -Heaven forbid if this kind of protesting was done in China.

When I see the military facing the angry protesters, I feel sorry for these guys; for, they look scared and in a situation they don't want to be in. I know it is the "Thai way" to not enforce city ordnances and rules (I am assuming there are city ordnances and "rules" when a group congregates to protest) but this is a good example where things get out of hand if you let protesters do what they want in the beginning -- allowing thousands to squat an area in the middle of the city to set up "camp".

Ok non-farang, this situation would never have occurred in England, Germany, US, France etc. At the first signs of violence the protesters would have been cleared out. This is not the way business is done in the West.

The red shirts at this point (for a long while now) are domestic terriorists and should be treated as such. Imagine if you family lived close to where they are building their forts and holding their hate speeches.

Actually I think the thing to do would be to arrest their leader (in Africa or wherever he is) and try him for terriorism. Once he is jailed somewhere this all would come to a swift end.

[Ulysses G.]

Yeh, that pal is the rub - you think Americans think __________________________________ (fill in the blank space in your head). Why don't you and others like you ask something once in a while...you presume to know more than you think you know. It's called bias and prejudice, not to mention ignorance and arrogance.

Don't forget brainwashed, politically correct imbecility.

[h90]

Ok farangs, explain this to me... It seems many members on this forum are bad mouthing the (poorly trained) Thai military for doing a crack down on the Red protesters. Yes, there have been shootings from both sides. The Red protesters have been occupying parts of the capital city since March. They have disrupted local Thais from going to work or even losing their jobs due to businesses having to close. PM Abhisit (in a no win situation) offered new elections on November 14. The Reds would not accept the offer unless more demands were met. Here is my question: Would your country allow this kind of demonstration go on for months, cripling the capital city? All democracies have rules and ordnances for demonstrators to follow and once you go beyond the "guide lines" -watch out. (If you are American, think of Kent State or the Chicago Democratic convention in the 60's; if you are French, think of the Paris riots not too long ago.) -Heaven forbid if this kind of protesting was done in China.

When I see the military facing the angry protesters, I feel sorry for these guys; for, they look scared and in a situation they don't want to be in. I know it is the "Thai way" to not enforce city ordnances and rules (I am assuming there are city ordnances and "rules" when a group congregates to protest) but this is a good example where things get out of hand if you let protesters do what they want in the beginning -- allowing thousands to squat an area in the middle of the city to set up "camp".

No the demonstrations would be ended on the first day.

The army and the government is wrong for:

let it go so long

let everything go in and out for so long

don't immediately fire all police/military men who don't cooperate

sending children (drafts) instead of well trained army (Thailand has 900 Generals, what are they doing all the day???)

Give the Terrorists always time to regroup and most probably restock

come with insufficient numbers

In any other country police and army who does not follow orders is kicked out immediately.

[neverdie]

Grumpy old lonesome farang Tourists? It is about the farangs who spreading here their hate at TVF. If these Farangs, who do nothing else than begging for violence and bloodshed, shut up and GO HOME Thailand would be better of and miss nothing.

Please do a little research and provide quotes for these farangs who are spreading their hate and begging for violence. This seems to have become another catch phrase for red apologists, along with "double standards" and "farang aren't thai so shut up". Please provide the quotes of anyone "begging for violence and bloodshed". Or else <deleted>

Yes, an appauling claim considering he 'quoted' three people that were doing NO such thing.